Episode 41 - Chua Guan-Hock SC, JP

In this episode, we meet Senior Counsel Chua Guan-Hock, who looks back on his schooling and university days in the UK, first steps in the Hong Kong legal profession and work as Chairman of the Appeal Board Panel for Town Planning. He also reflects on his long association with Des Voeux Chambers, which has just celebrated its 40th anniversary. Hock speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen. 

00:31 Welcome to Law & More: A Chat with Senior Counsel Chua Guan-Hock
02:11 A Journey from Malaysia to Hong Kong: Early Life and Education
03:51 Choosing Law and the Path to Cambridge
05:20 From Bar School to Hong Kong: The Early Career Moves
06:46 Building a Career in Commercial Law at Des Voeux Chambers
13:20 Reflections on Public Service and the Judiciary
14:06 The Role of Senior Counsel and Contributions to the Legal Community
22:21 Exploring International Education and Balancing Multiple Roles
26:15 Final Thoughts and Future Directions

Transcript

[00:31:00] Colin: In this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Senior Counsel Chua Guan hok, one of Hong Kong's foremost Barristers, He specializes in commercial and corporate litigation. He also has an outstanding record of public service, most notably the Chairman of the Appeal Board Panel for Town and Planning, which he is no longer a member, having served his time.

Originally from Malaysia, he made his home in Hong Kong for many decades.

Hock, Welcome to Law More. And as I always ask my guests at the start, what's been keeping you busy recently?

[00:31:42] Hock: Many things, thankfully. It's many interesting areas to law, interesting cases, interesting clients. So that keeps one going, work wise together with other public service and matters to deal with.

So plenty, Hong Kong's quite, quite an exciting place. At times too exciting, but enough to keep one going.

[00:32:02] Colin: Yeah, and indeed I saw your picture in the SCMP with the Des Voeux Chambers when Francis got appointed as senior councillor. That must have been a great occasion. 

[00:32:11] Hock: Very, very happy day because I can still remember her as an intern summer student.

She was very modest to say that on a, bleak winter's day, received this very happy news about a mini pupilage internship at Des Voeux. I think we spotted her talent. She's, I think, one of the second Rhodes Scholar in Chambers now. We have at least four. So quite a formidable lineup of Rhodes Scholars and others, but I'm so pleased to see her develop and flourish and that's the very best traditions at the Bar.

[00:32:40] Colin: Now let's go back a little bit in time to your early days from Malaysia.

[00:32:45] Hock: Yeah, actually born in London,

[00:32:46] Colin: Born in London, yes. 

[00:32:47] Hock: And then back to KL at age one. 

[00:32:49] Colin: KL at age one, so really a Malaysian. And tell us a little bit about your upbringing and your early days in Malaysia.

[00:32:58] Hock: Very strict upbringing.

I mean, my father's side is Malaysian, mother's side is Singaporean. The two countries were one at one time. So when the countries have a quarrel with, think they're like young children. But it was a very idyllic childhood. Very low rise, a lot of greenery, not so much high rise. Very happy memories in both places.

I was at school both in KL and in Singapore for primary school. 

[00:33:23] Colin: And tell me a little bit about, you were sent off to boarding school, Marlborough.

We had many of my guests. You're the second guest from Marlborough. Douglas Wong of Bloomberg. Oh, he was at Marlborough.

[00:33:36] Hock: I was very, very lucky because my parents had me down since age eight.

There was a very strong Malaysian contingent who was sending a lot of kids to Marlborough. And I think it's very fortunate. And it's one of the best things My dad and my parents did for me. After I went, my results all blossomed because it was such a change from having endless tuition and pressure in KL and Singapore.

Once you went abroad, there's a lot of academic but extracurricular sport. Something happened, something clicked and the results became much better.

[00:34:05] Colin: You enjoyed your time there? 

[00:34:08] Hock: I did, Funny enough, my parents were so worried I would get bullied, but I was this size at 13. I did the bullying and I was in the first team for everything. So we thumped the other boys.

[00:34:17] Colin: Now, tell me this you did pretty well. You got into Cambridge, 

[00:34:22] Hock: Very lucky. 

[00:34:22] Colin: You defeated Examiners. And you studied law. What made you go into law?

[00:34:28] Hock: Oh, it was a toss up because actually my favourite subjects were medieval history and classics.

But my father said, you go back to Malaysia, no one's interested in your classics. He wanted a good training of the mind and a profession. And so he said, do law. He said, why don't you follow your cousins? They've been going to fresh fields. I said very interesting, but I like the law, but I'm not sure I'm cut out to be a solicitor.

And so that was just a very lucky thing because I found the practice of law can be, kind of be a bit dry, but the study of it, but the practice of it was much, much more interesting than the academic study.

[00:35:03] Colin: And did you enjoy Cambridge?

[00:35:04] Hock: Oh, very much. Three years was too fast. Eight week terms far too intense, but it's a bit like a dream came and went and it's a beautiful place.

[00:35:13] Colin: Of course, you went to the wrong college. You should have come to my college. Downing! 

[00:35:16] Hock: I know 

[00:35:17] Colin: You knew I was going to give you hard time.

Well, you got an exhibition to go to, which is a scholarship to go to Gonville and Keys. I presume it was just you had a connection from the school.

[00:35:28] Hock: No, actually it's my father's old college and he insisted, he said they're all difficult.

I wanted to go somewhere else. No, no, no, no, go to my old college so he could feel young again. So I did my duty and he was very pleased. They gave out an exhibition because he said then there's no way they can say that you bought your way and you had to get it on merit. I said, thank you. That was lucky.

[00:35:49] Colin: Now, so what made you go to the bar? 

[00:35:51] Hock: I think it's gut instinct. I thought the law was interesting, but I like the idea of the advocacy, the mooting, the debating. Combined with the academic study. And so I thought those days solicitor's job would be more time spent in the office.

Whereas the barrister goes out and, argues this thing in court. And I think that's just gut instinct. 

[00:36:12] Colin: You went back to Malaysia or straight from...

[00:36:15] Hock: Straight from bar school in London to Hong Kong. 

[00:36:17] Colin: what what made you do that? Why Hong Kong? 

[00:36:20] Hock: well, it's actually a toss up between Hong Kong and Singapore because most of my family in Singapore, but my father said number one in the mid eighties.

He was very bullish on China's future. He said, oh, China has a great future, and he said Hong Kong as part of it. And he said, Singapore is too strict. So he said, you go to Hong Kong without family connection, and you go make it there. And I said, fine, I'll do my best. 

[00:36:41] Colin: And tell me, did you do pupillage in Hong Kong?

[00:36:46] Hock: Those days It was a one year pupillage requirement.

It used to be the case you could do six months in London, six months in Hong Kong. Then they imposed a requirement, have to be one year in Hong Kong, so I did it all here. I gave up the idea. I had a pupillage arranged at Fountain Court. The rules were about to change before 1997 to keep out those who are qualified in London without a Hong Kong connection.

And so I decided to give up the idea of London Pupillage and do it all here, straight after bar school.

[00:37:15] Colin: And memories of pupillage?

[00:37:17] Hock: Oh, pupillage was a very happy time. There was no chambers larger than 1250. No set with more than one QC or SC. Very friendly, very personal. So, I came out second year at Cambridge, 1985.

And that was probably the first summer student or intern at Des Voeux. And they treated me so well I kept on coming back for punishment.

[00:37:38] Colin: Always at Des Voeux chambers. Just to help our listeners, Des Voeux Chambers is one of the leading set of chambers. Well, there's two leading sets, there's Temple and Des Voeux. Des Voeux is grown into one of the, we'll talk a little bit later about your 40th anniversary. And you did your pupillage in Des Voeux, and then having completed your pupillage, which is your one year training, you were offered a, what we would call a tenancy, UBN became part of Chambers.

[00:38:04] Hock: And in fact it was quite amusing because I was going to go back and do a BCL or LLM But the then head of chambers Neil Caplan said number one you lose your place in the queue for tenancy and number two. You learn much more in real life practice.

And so I took his word for it and ditched the idea of an LLM BCL And went straight for Pupillage.

[00:38:24] Colin: And when you did your Pupillage where did you get your criminal experience from? Because you had to do a little bit of criminal. 

[00:38:29] Hock: Yes, I think those days we had some criminal practitioners including Judy Barnes, Tim Kwok, and we were on the 13th floor of Princes Building, so we were doing duty lawyer work.

And so we got the criminal experience there, very valuable. 

[00:38:45] Colin: Now, what took you in to become a commercial lawyer as opposed to doing other work? I mean, did you just grew into it or the right cases just came up.

[00:38:54] Hock: No, I was just lucky. I think number one criminal cases were interesting. I found them quite depressing because often there was something to do with drugs.

And someone saying it was planted on them and so on. I thought the commercial work was much more mentally stimulating. And just very lucky at that stage. The bar was much smaller, only like 300 Barrister,, there's not like 1,600 now, with less competition, so it was a lucky time.

[00:39:18] Colin: And anyone, anyone in particular who helped you along the way?

[00:39:23] Hock: Oh, I had a lot of help, needed a lot of help. So Neil Kaplan as Head of Chambers, my pupil master Barry Barlow later on, late Ray Faulkner, Willie Stone, robert Cotewall as well. 

[00:39:34] Colin: Ray Fortner and William Stone both taught at Hong Kong University. 

[00:39:37] Hock: Yeah, they're very, very good for teaching. So as a young junior, you really couldn't ask for more because they were always trying to help me with ideas and authorities. And that was a great way to start.

[00:39:48] Colin: So you started off, what brought you into the company law, what would be called the, you know, shareholders disputes, that type of area. 

[00:39:57] Hock: I think the short answer is cheap and cheerful, and dedicated. So it just happened to be, you know, right place, right time, certain demand, and trying to be dedicated in what you do. 

[00:40:10] Colin: And you developed your career and all the rest, and then you became a senior counsel. And how long did that take you? It's quite quick, actually.

[00:40:19] Hock: Yeah, Got it at age 38. And I think I've been in practice about 16 years, and I was involved in a very long trial, the Whelock-Marden Matter, went on 14 months, and the leader then said, well you have, you've been out of circulation, so just delay it by a year or so, otherwise young, impatient young man, you see. 

[00:40:38] Colin: Becoming a leader, did you find that you were busier or did you have to work even harder to keep up, to get the cases 

[00:40:47] Hock: Actually, it was a very good running in because I had very helpful advice from Robert Ribeiro, who led me in the Court of Appeal on Wheelock Martin for a whole, whole month.

And he was saying, you keep the fee the same, so you get the silk for the price of a senior junior until you get far too busy, then you put your rates up. But otherwise, it was fine. It gives the client a bit more confidence. 

[00:41:09] Colin: Yeah. So you've been a member of Des Voeux Chamber for so many years as well, what has made Des Voeux Chambers, if you could say, a great success? 

[00:41:17] Hock: I mean, it's very lucky. I think the thing is that I was treated so well by Chambers that I thought only right to give back. So, I think there are a lot of dedicated people. We know whether they do public service or they give something back to Chambers.

So, in terms of pupils, interns, the library, later on we have a constitution You know, practice them in all sorts of areas. A lot of people who are very willing to help out for free. And I think that's important because if you're all too busy making money, there's no one around to spend enough time developing chambers.

And it's just a matter of giving something back. Yeah.

[00:41:52] Colin: Yes. I mean, let me tell you a little story about your chambers. I've known William Wong for many years, and I've always felt, in Hong Kong, you never had the clerks, so for solicitors, for us to know who are the good young juniors. So I got together with William, and I said, look, William, I want to bring all my young solicitors to the auditorium and meet your young pupils.

And juniors, junior juniors, and tried to get to integrate and to get together and we established that and we came over a couple of years ago, and we're now doing a similar thing. we're going to come over at the end of the month and meet with all your juniors are come along and we'll say a few words and each will talk about recent developments and I think that works very well. 

[00:42:34] Hock: Yes, we're looking forward to it. No, William has done extraordinarily well. He was one of my pupils and he started off, I think, with just a small little booth and he's now got a huge room, so he's done really well helping the youngsters in many sorts of ways.

[00:42:49] Colin: Yeah, and I think it's the opportune time. It's 40 years of Des Voeux Chambers and, 6th of May was the date. Tell us a little bit about the anniversary and the celebrations and how Winnie is the head of Chambers and she was on my pod not to oh last year.

[00:43:05] Hock: Yes, I think the, the actual date, I think sometime back in January or February I think originally of 1984, but it's just so fitting that it fits in with, the ICA conference and so forth.

But yes, 40 years is quite something and I think when I joined, it was just one silk. Now we have 25. There were 12 barristers in total. Now we're about 100. So it's grown hugely and you know, long may it go from strength to strength. 

[00:43:33] Colin: And you enjoy it.

[00:43:34] Hock: Yes, we do. I mean, it's a very friendly atmosphere.

I mean, you know, because we're sole practitioners, we don't share profits and losses, makes it more straightforward and a lot of people who are prepared to help the youngsters get going, and that's great. 

[00:43:49] Colin: Note that you have occasionally been a Deputy High Court judge. Does the lure of the judiciary full time? Have you ever thought thought about that?

[00:43:59] Hock: I thought about it. It's a very dedicated thing to do and I take my hat off whoever does it. It's quite a transition because unlike some other jurisdictions, the judges here at the High Court may not have as much support as say some other jurisdictions like say Singapore where I'm told every judge at the High Court or above has a judicial clerk to help because in practice you usually got a whole team of lawyers.

You become a full time judge at the High Court, you've got very little support. But I think it's a great thing. Full time not as attractive as doing it part time.

[00:44:31] Colin: A lot of my people have been on the pod

recently said exactly the same thing. At Saturday's ceremony where the new silks were admitted, the Chief Justice emphasized to them that once you become a senior counsel, you owe duties to the public. You are there to lead by example, etc. 

And you, in turn, have done admirably well, having regard to the fact that you have sat on various public bodies.

And in particular, You were chairman of the Appeal Board for Town Planning, and that was from 2017 to 2023. Could you tell us a little bit as to how you got involved and what the Appeal Board does? 

[00:45:13] Hock: Sure. I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with what the Chief Justice and others had to say. I think just simply because being in Silk, you get asked to sit on all sorts of public bodies some paid, some unpaid, and that just came along. And actually, it wasn't an area of law I do, but it's really fascinating because it's not just planning.

It's also judicial review. Statue construction and then lots of other areas like conservation, the ecology, the environment, matters like that, particularly up in the New Territories. So it's a fascinating area and I'm very glad to put the time in.

[00:45:49] Colin: And you had interesting cases?

[00:45:51] Hock: Oh yes, very interesting. I mean some of my, they have very distinguished predecessors like Henry Lytton, Robert Tang. So you feel a certain duty to do your very best because you've got such distinguished forebears. They're very big shoes to fill. 

[00:46:06] Colin: Yeah, I mean, it must be quite interesting. Because I sat on the Inland Revenue Review Board as a Deputy Chairman, and that was very interesting. That took up a lot of time and hard work, but it was rewarding.

Now, we also, together, we set on a joint tribunal, and I think our listeners may be interested. It's called the Joint Tribunal, and it has the sort of name of, called The Gray's Committee. 

And this is a tribunal whereby we have 10 Senior Council and 10 Senior Solicitors. And this is where solicitors instruct council and there's disputes between council and solicitors as the committee is to sort out difficulties.

[00:46:48] Hock: I think we, I remember we sorted that one quite well. 

[00:46:51] Colin: We did. indeed.

[00:46:52] Hock: A lot of drama and you know, emotion, 

[00:46:55] Colin: Yeah. I mean, did you do quite a few of those?

[00:46:58] Hock: Not that many, some from time to time. Sometimes they settle, it's in the public interest to settle rather than fight all the way, if possible. But yeah, we get, get asked to sit in on these and it's all down to do with money.

[00:47:11] Colin: Yes, because I think our listeners would like to know this. When I instruct yourself, I am responsible for your fees. You cannot sue the client, nor can you actually sue the solicitor. 

And all you can do is go before this tribunal to try and sort things out, and if it can't be sorted, we then make a report, and in turn it then becomes a disciplinary matter, i. e. by the solicitor's disciplinary tribunal for non payment of counsel's fees, but the object of this committee is try to sort things out if we can. 

[00:47:44] Hock: Yes, Because I think you don't want to put in a complaint, but I think it's meant to be payment within two months. But once you do that, the relationship's not quite the same. It's gone. 

[00:47:53] Colin: Many of it is sometimes, just for our listeners, that when I instruct councils, I'm pretty good in that I make it very, very clear. But some people don't, and some people do the work thinking they're going to be paid, and there's always that grey area. That's why it's called The Grey Committee, which is quite an interesting characteristics. Now, you're also Chairman of the disciplinary panel for the Bar Council.

One of the chairmen. So tell us a little bit about that, as to what you do there.

[00:48:21] Hock: Yeah, I mean, it's basically two branches of the profession, very similar principles and it's self regulatory, so we have to give up our time and effort because it's very important to have public confidence in the profession. There's one saying you're meant to be able to trust doctors and lawyers to the ends of the earth and so we give up our time, it's not paid.

But a very, very important aspect, because particularly the bars got much larger and there are inevitably some disputes that arise because there's a higher standard to apply to a lawyer than a man on the street. So all sorts of unfortunate disputes arise and someone has to do it and it's usually a panel of three.

[00:49:02] Colin: And one layperson.

[00:49:03] Hock: That's right.

[00:49:04] Colin: And these deal with breaches of the codes of conduct, bad behavior, one instances of people doing three cases on the same day, or, lots of cases...

[00:49:16] Hock: And because the bar spends a lot of time with pupils because trying to train them up on the code of conduct, basis prevention is much better than cure, right? Get them climatised to it.

[00:49:25] Colin: You're Malaysian. 

Do you go back there a lot 

[00:49:28] Hock: Yes, I go back, primarily for the food and family.

But yeah, it's very close by. The currency hasn't been strong, so it's made it a much busier place for tourists. Very, very attractive.

[00:49:40] Colin: One of my earliest cases, which I was involved in when I first came to Hong Kong in in the 80s, was the carrion case. 

the Bumi Putra case, I did lots of extradition for Lorraine Osman, the Shamsuddin, and I was going to Malaysia in the extradition about every other week or every other month with leading counsel, Lorraine Otten, he passed not too long ago. Yeah, yes, exactly. So, I mean, I enjoyed the judges. And I remember one wonderful occasion where we were taking evidence as well and we really wanted to push on and the local lawyer said, Oh, no, no, no. There'll be no case this afternoon.

How do you know? 

So the judge came looking very smart and with golf gear on as the off to play golf. It was a Thursday afternoon because Friday was a holiday as well. So, I mean, it was very, very nice, but it was, how can I say, a very leisurely place, the system in Malaysia, 

But very nice. It was the old courts there. So actually, I enjoyed myself working very closely with members of the bar. 

Now you're also admitted in singapore. 

[00:50:39] Hock: Yes. 

[00:50:40] Colin: Do you have any cases in Singapore?

[00:50:41] Hock: No, I don't appear as an advocate there because I have a lot of family there. So in the past when I was admitted, I think before 1997, some people misinterpreted it as meaning I was going to leave Hong Kong to go to Singapore.

So I thought, I think I better just practice in one place and go there for holidays. So I mean, I work on some cases with some Singapore lawyers, but not as an advocate. 

[00:51:02] Colin: And also, you're involved in arbitration matters, you do arbitration as well. There is a big arbitration centre in Singapore, and a lot of council have set up in Singapore. We have the Hong Kong centre as well, but they've really advertised themselves as a great dispute centre 

[00:51:21] Hock: I know it's very healthy competition between the two. I mean, some people say that Singapore may have more cases, but Hong Kong cases, they on average be bigger value.

And I think it's great to have that competition, that service in both jurisdictions and others. Yeah.

[00:51:37] Colin: How do you relax in Hong Kong? You're very busy. You're on all these all these boards as well. 

[00:51:42] Hock: Oh, I think spend too much time sitting down. So a lot of time getting fresh air and exercise, you know, exercise almost every day, if one can. 

[00:51:50] Colin: Hong Kong has gone through, let's call it, difficult times over the last five years with so called the troubles, as they are now called, along with COVID as well. We now have, the new safeguarding national security, tensions and all that has arisen. Your views on Hong Kong, and how you see the legal system at the moment?

[00:52:10] Hock: I think just standing back. I mean, Hong Kong is a rather curious place because, it's not a matter of gaining independence like other jurisdictions. I've been in Singapore, Malaysia, the Brits will basically eventually had to leave. I think in principle, nothing wrong with a national security law.

I mean, there'll be the argument on terms, different ways of going on about it. But I think in principle it's a much safer place than it was at one time. And you know, safety is something, you know, can't really take for granted, so fingers crossed. Hopefully, I think in the right direction.

[00:52:42] Colin: You've been here for many, many years. Your home is hong Kong. As I always ask guests your future, you're staying?

[00:52:49] Hock: Yes. No, I'm staying. 

[00:52:50] Colin: I'm also interested a little bit in that I know with Marlborough College and you are a governor of the college and you're here in Hong Kong. And I do see lots of adverts in the newspapers for schools and I should put a declared interest here. My grandson is age nine, and, I'm very keen for him to perhaps to go to the right college, and, to do that is always talk about route to have the ability of getting into a good university.

You should go back to a school in the UK. Now, what do you do as the governer to encourage people to go to marlborough?

[00:53:27] Hock: No, I think we basically oversee, because I mean, education is such an important area, potentially life changing. And that school was actually looking at Singapore and Hong Kong years ago. But it wanted a huge site, and Singapore and Hong Kong couldn't oblige.

I think they were looking at five, six acres in Hong Kong. But in Malaysia, next to the second crossing to Singapore, 90 acres. It's unheard of in that part of the world because the Malaysian government was trying to offer something that Singapore and Hong Kong could not provide. And I think they're very lucky to give a choice that, it's not a matter of, if you want a good boarding school education that you necessarily have to go to UK.

There are many choices. That school has been voted by the Times Educational Supplement as the leading international school worldwide. It's got going within 12 years, I think 2012. So it's not a franchise. It's owned by the UK school, very conscious of quality control. So I just go in, try to learn things about all the different disciplines, areas of schooling, but very interesting.

[00:54:28] Colin: So, the difference between the Harrow in Hong Kong, that's more of a franchise, whereby they're using the Harrow name, but you've got to make sure you sell the rights.

[00:54:38] Hock: I mean, it's a very good franchise. I mean there's some schools are stronger than others. But it's just giving parents the choice. The big difference is that UK, you go to a British school, if you go to somewhere like Marlborough, Malaysia, it's international, 45 nationalities.

And a lot of their Asian work ethics, all the other kids get pushed very hard because they don't want to be left behind, and I think it's great.

[00:55:00] Colin: So, are kids from Hong Kong going to Malaysia to Montgomery College?

[00:55:05] Hock: Yes, there's some going. In fact, they come from far and wide, Japan, Korea, India, primarily Southeast Asia.

There are some kids from Hong Kong who go down as well, because the fees are a bit cheaper than the UK, and much closer in distance. So some parents prefer it that way.

[00:55:23] Colin: Especially with the Labour Government. Well, it's inevitable that Sir Keir Starmer is going to get elected. And they want to put VAT on the school fees. Which will make it very very expensive. 

How much of your time is spent, being one of the governors of Malbroughs

[00:55:36] Hock: Not too much because we have meetings every term, so often it's by Zoom.

So I was persuaded to join on the basis I didn't need to fly down. So with COVID, we haven't been flying down, but occasionally I would fly in, see family in Malaysia, Singapore, and then attend a meeting there.

[00:55:54] Colin: So how do you manage your time you're very busy with your practice you have all your public duties. You have governor of Marlborough school juggling all those balls up in the air seems to be very very difficult 

[00:56:06] Hock: Yeah, not enough hours in the day. Question is, I think in Silk, to take on a little bit less work, so do it well. So quality rather than quantity, and making sure there's enough time to prepare for various things, but not being overloaded with far too much.

[00:56:21] Colin: Yes rather like myself, I'm beginning to focus on the work I want to do. And I just came back from Miami for the Formula One Grand Prix. Then I went to the Caymans. And then I gave a talk to a few of the major law firms about as to Hong Kong national security law, putting it in its correct perspective as well, which is important to do things like that, to sort of promote hong kong as well. Hock, it's been a great pleasure having you on Law & More. I must thank so much for joining us. 

[00:56:50] Hock: No, thank you.