Episode 32 - Amr Elhenawy

In today's episode we are delighted to be joined by Ambassador/former Consul General of Egypt Amr Elhenawy. A diplomat for more than three decades, during which he was posted all over the world, Amr recently left the Egyptian Foreign Ministry and has made Hong Kong his home, setting up a business to facilitate investment and cultural ties between China and the Arab world. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen.

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter        

Transcript

[00:00:32] Colin: Welcome everybody. Today I am delighted to be speaking with Amr Elhenawy, who was until recently the Egyptian Consul General in Hong Kong and Macau. Since leaving his role, he's continued living in Hong Kong. And uses his extensive experience to facilitate business investment between China and the Middle East North Africa region.

[00:00:55] Colin: He has been posted all over the world and speaks at least five languages. Amr, welcome to Law & More. As I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently? 

[00:01:08] Amr: Thank you very much for this opportunity. What's keeping me busy? Trying to connect people. This region, which is not very familiar from where I come from, the so called Middle East. So we're trying to do a few cultural events, also sports events. And then the other usual stuff, which is mostly politics and trying to connect some businesses together. So it's mostly that. 

[00:01:32] Colin: Before I discuss your fascinating and interesting career to date, can you tell us a little bit about your upbringing and early years? You were schooled not only in Egypt, but also in Australia and Europe. Give us a little bit of your background. 

[00:01:45] Amr: Well yeah, I was born into a diplomatic family, so I was even born in Holland. And then we traveled through the world. I went to many schools. I did high school in Australia.

[00:01:56] Amr: Yeah I don't want to spend a lot of time. And that probably walked me into my job later. I did do a few other things after university. I'm a graduate of science. I actually have a degree in science. 

[00:02:06] Colin: What took you down that route? I'm interested. 

[00:02:08] Amr: Personally, it was mostly about, golf, the misses that you don't want to do.

[00:02:12] Amr: So I was quite curious, still am. And I think that suited what I was trying to do at the time. Maybe later then I decided that I wanted a more engaging job since my whole life was about adapting and going to different countries and cultures. I ended up, going down the same path. It's just continuing to explore and cross these bridges and explore other identities and religions and what have you.

[00:02:38] Amr: So after that I worked in the oil business for a while and then I worked in tourism. So I had a few other jobs and a few other private jobs with the private sector and then joined the foreign ministry in 1987.

[00:02:50] Colin: And what made you join? 

[00:02:52] Colin: Was it a family connection or did you feel obliged to. What made you join the diplomatic core or diplomatic services and how does one go about that? 

[00:03:00] Amr: You're going to get me in trouble here, It was family probably. I used to play sports quite well and a few other things that I did privately. But my dad needed that I would continue something along the path. So he encouraged me or persuaded me to do that. And I wanted to travel and it was to me almost like the best combination of traveling and at the same time being close to my parents in a sense where we come from we are very family oriented and yes there is a bit of that family issue in it. A lot of people debate like whether people from the same trade end up getting any favors whatever. That was not the case, we had to do a national exam where about a thousand other people applied so I think that's how it started anyway.

[00:03:47] Colin: Do you remember your first posting? 

[00:03:49] Amr: Yeah very well, I was posted to Columbia 

[00:03:52] Colin: Oh that's very interesting. Now, tell me about that. What you exactly had to do when you went to Colombia.

[00:03:57] Amr: You're full of very easy but very difficult questions. What did I have to do in Colombia from Egypt? Correct. So Egypt has a very long history and tradition of diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. We are pioneers in a lot of things from Second World War, decolonization, African unity.

[00:04:15] Amr: So we have a very extensive, broad representation, including in Latin America. Why I ended up in Columbia is probably because, at the time I wasn't good enough for Washington DC I guess . I was there during the Escobar time, if you've seen Netflix.

[00:04:28] Colin: Oh, well, yeah. I am very familiar with that.

[00:04:30] Amr: That was the very height of some of the issues of one of the most beautiful countries in the world. One of the most beautiful people in the world and richest nations. But also close to the United States and all these geopolitics, if you will, and of course, then the very renowned issues of narco trafficking and what have you. So I was there for four years. We had a great time. We were working mostly, of course, on bilateral relations, trying to get more trade, which was difficult because of the distance.

[00:04:59] Amr: So it ended up again as an exercise for me in how to have Cultural awareness and exchange and dialogue between people of different parts of the world. Yeah. And then spoke Spanish.

[00:05:10] Colin: So, to just help me out, as I understand matters with diplomats, you do your posting in, let's say, Colombia, and then you go back to Egypt, back to the foreign ministry or diplomatic corps for a bit, or did you go to another posting straight away? 

[00:05:23] Amr: I did do Uraguay straight away. But generally that's not a rule in our service and other services. Some of the other services like Germany or whatever, they spend like 9 or 12 years abroad. In our case, they always like us back in four years and not forget the taste of the Egyptian Falafel. Because then if you stay too long, I think there's a theory that you become a bit more diluted into the environment or the society, and then you become slightly less focused on your country's interests.

[00:05:52] Colin: Yes, that's interesting. I want to, go to 2008, 2012. 'cause at that stage you were posted to the Consulate General in London and you spent some years. London's my hometown, born in London, North London. I came out to Hong Kong in 1981. So tell me a little bit about London and what exactly you were doing in London for the Consulate General.

[00:06:15] Amr: So, yeah. I'm married to half British half American wife and I have two beautiful kids who are also half British. So we went in the UK. I was like, oh, this is your hometown to my wife. And she hadn't been to the United Kingdom for a long time. I personally loved London itself.

[00:06:32] Amr: I was living in West London. It was a great job because by that time, this was my first head of mission, so I was Consul General to the whole of the United Kingdom, so we covered Scotland, Northern Ireland, what have you, and we had a huge society, 250,000 Egyptians. I mean, not officially, but that's the number.

[00:06:50] Amr: Everyone that you can imagine is there, all the power, the kids and the schools and the medical, so great ties because of the history of the two countries. So we had a great job of taking care of the Egyptians abroad, which is what we did here in Hong Kong as well. We promoted commercial and all other aspects of interaction.

[00:07:08] Amr: But also, what I got at that time was the Arab Spring. So after 30 years growing up, or most of my professional career, with President Mubarak and a setup that was the same, that hasn't changed very much, and same faces, what have you, then all of a sudden everything's changed, and, the so called Arab Spring, which has very many different definitions.

[00:07:28] Colin: Just to help our listeners out. Arab Spring, it started if I recollect Tunisia, the uprising for young people challenging the various governments as well. Have I got it right or if you could summarize exactly what is the Arab Spring, how you saw it. 

[00:07:45] Colin: The 

[00:07:45] Amr: Arab world until the Arab Spring had come out of Second World War into a group of countries with a bit of history like Iraq, Egypt, and And to some extent, Syria, what have you, and then the Gulf countries, which came into their own after the war with Israel in 1976 and oil in 73. So you had different parts of the, of the Arab world, but it was mostly I don't want to get this into a political issue, but you had a lot of leaders that had spent quite a long time and a lot of monarchs.

[00:08:18] Amr: And, of course, the younger generation was changing. The whole world was changing. There was a lot of Internet moving, globalization.

[00:08:24] Amr: So yeah, the societies had changed. They were facing different economic conditions. And the specific incident that took this off or started this off was in Tunisia, a poor man that burned himself and that took off. Now Egypt is the biggest in terms of population, the biggest in terms of military. It is the oldest in terms of the movie business. It is the house of Azhar, which is the main, let's say the Pope of Islam and most of the education, most of the Arab education and professors and doctors, all of this initiated from Egypt.

[00:09:01] Amr: So whatever happens in Egypt normally spills around the Arab world much more. And then yes, it caught on in Egypt. I think that started from 2010. 

[00:09:08] Amr: And then it was 2011 when this all happened and everyone was seeing on the screens and everyone was loving this euphoria, but the youth taking charge, everyone wanted a revolution, everyone loves the underdog and then all these countries and all its long established old regimes were faced with Twitter and Facebook and kids talking about freedom and challenging religious Pillars of what was going on.

[00:09:37] Amr: So yeah, it was challenging for everyone. No one expected to be dealing with all of this.

[00:09:41] Colin: And I presume whilst you were in London at that time, up to 2012, you had to explain, and it was an area whereby you had to address, deal with it, explain to people what was happening.

[00:09:51] Amr: Until London, it was a lovely time. I was the star of any reception I went to. Represented Egypt, everyone loves the Pharaohs, So it has this romantic thing about it. And then the size of Egypt, and we've never been to war with anyone. So everyone likes you. You don't have to go into reception and defend, like we had a military action and killed a few people. We were always there, so even in Colombia, everywhere I've been. Portugal, whatever. So we talked and Egypt's influence with the Middle East was always a pleasant one. So you were not put under a lot of, except for some issues of terrorism. 

[00:10:23] Amr: 2011, then I become all of a sudden, I'm a professional diplomat. I work for the Egyptian state. I do not work for an Egyptian government. Well, the government, of course, but I we're not allowed to join parties. So I have no anything political related to my job.

[00:10:37] Amr: All of a sudden then in 2011, there was chaos and the president had to go and then there was a military council. So is this a military coup? Is this a revolution? And then there were elections. So this went on for the dust to settle, if it has settled, from the Arab Spring, it goes on for a long time, and then all of a sudden you're caught with supposedly what the West considers as a non-democratic process. And where you come from, this non democratic or perceived non democratic process is a process that you're trying to maintain that entity or that country from going down the path of what we've seen recently libya, what's happening in Sudan. Our region being the Middle East in the middle of it, we have no choice.

[00:11:22] Amr: And you have had a few countries, Iraq, a lot of these countries have now disappeared. These are families that no longer have the same status or same future that they had with their kids. so so you were caught in the middle of that, but also the Egyptian society was then faced with something new. It was fresh.

[00:11:39] Amr: Everyone was happy, excited. But then they decided, Oh, we're too excited. But where are we going to go from here? So we were getting visits every week from four or five different young representatives of some entity that wants to change Egypt. And then, of course, the Islamists of different kinds, the political Islamists, the extreme Islamists.

[00:12:00] Amr: So it was very challenging. And it was a lot of work. And then you had to explain what is happening back home to western governments who were then raising issues of human rights and what have you. So then we became stuck in that middle of do we accept what's happening?

[00:12:17] Amr: Is this a good transition?

[00:12:19] Colin: It's difficult. Now, in 2012, you then go back to Egypt and you go back to work. As I understand matters for a foreign minister for security. I'm a little bit intrigued by that. So you leave London just after the Olympics or before the Olympics and you arrive back in Cairo.

[00:12:38] Colin: Are you able to tell us a little bit what you were doing?

[00:12:41] Amr: Yes, yes. Well, London, of course, is the center of where the world opinion and decisions are made in terms of press. In terms of all these what do you have? Security organizations, security institutions, and also think tanks. So I go back and then I get this job in security.

[00:13:01] Amr: And this job in security I hadn't done before. I had done a lot of other jobs with VIP protocol and regular geographic desks. And I'm in the middle of all of it. This is 2012, where we have elections coming, and we have supposedly a military regime that is not elected by the people and then we have elections, and then we have a Muslim Brotherhood president for a year. 

[00:13:23] Amr: Things were extremely volatile at the moment at that time in Egypt for sure. And our relationship with the rest of the world was very difficult, and being in the part as a civilian in the foreign ministry security, we were always the focal point between all the foreign entities in Egypt and the apparatus, the security apparatus of Egypt, so they should go through the foreign ministry.

[00:13:46] Amr: And also we were part of the national committee and crisis management or what have you. Plus that we had to look after 180 missions abroad. We had to look after the interests of about 200 and plus missions in Egypt, so there was a bit of an old physical security, cyber security, personal security. And the mood was not good on the street, especially when the West came in and started saying, well you should do this and that. So it was pretty busy, and we had to look after our premises as well.

[00:14:18] Amr: And to attend a lot of things that were happening at the time was quite exciting...

[00:14:22] Colin: now, I remember that because I remember going on a cruise and getting off in Safaga and going to see the Tutankhamun, to see the wonderful pyramids to see the tombs, et cetera. And when we were coming on a coach, escorted by car, in front, cars behind, and guys with guns thinking they had to keep our tourists safe.

[00:14:42] Colin: Well, I can understand it because there were some issues

[00:14:44] Amr: It is one of the main areas of foreign currency and income to Egypt. And the problem, of course, living or being part of a region that has had a lot of wars and a lot of religious tension with its neighbors, we've always been subjected to certain incidents during all this time, not just during the Arab Spring.

[00:15:01] Amr: So we've always had this cloud, if you say, hovering over our terrorism and the treasures which we consider as human patrimony. We've always had this issue, and we've always had a strong policing. The whole region is actually like that. Of course, when things are not going very well, it's very visible.

[00:15:17] Amr: I've worked in tourism for a while. I never thought that that was comfortable for the tourists, because first, it brought a lot more attraction to them. And secondly, it just spoils the trip for the tourists. We can do that, but that's a preventive measure.

[00:15:32] Colin: , later on I went back again and I went to Cairo, which was fabulous. A fabulous city, very interesting. The Egyptian Museum is one of the best museums on the planet. People don't realize what a nice city Cairo is.

[00:15:43] Amr: I'm in the business of promoting that. I actually tailor, I'm just not for self promotion, but this is part of my, what keeps me busy is I try to tailor these trips for people to go and see it, see the must dos, but at the same time, do it at their own preference. 

[00:15:59] Colin: So after you've been working for the foreign ministry, you then go to Slovakia as the ambassador. What on earth took you to Slovakia, a lot of Egyptian interest in Slovakia?

[00:16:10] Amr: I got asked that question in a program with some of these Egyptian comedians, and they asked me the same question. The whole program was to draw funny issues about Egyptians living abroad. And that was a question I was asked like, how many Egyptians do you have here to have an embassy?

[00:16:25] Amr: So you know what, I've had an amazing career. When I went to Columbia, all this was going on about this violence and changes. I went to Uganda and there was the war in Congo, which basically had everyone in that same region. So I was very lucky to be part of that and tell the story afterwards.

[00:16:41] Amr: So I go to Slovakia. What can happen in Slovakia? Slovakia is an amazing place in the middle of Central Europe, part of the Austro-Hungarian zone. And then this huge migrant crisis starts in 2015. But at the time, of course, we were still having issues as a country with the European Union. Again, at that point, I think the European Union had no ties with Egypt at all. Slovakia, Hungary, Greece and Cyprus were our friends within the EU. And so part what kept me busy was to try to continue to work with the Slovaks to say, you need to maintain dialogue. It's not as easy as it looks and it should not be treated like this so we have long relations. 

[00:17:22] Amr: So that was one aspect. But then when we had the issue of immigration from mostly supposedly from the Arab world because of the Syrian problem. Then you had to do a lot more work to exchange with the Slovaks and show them where these people are coming from.

[00:17:37] Amr: They're not a serious threat to you. What led to all of this? So again, it goes down the path that I chose, which was always to make dialogue and understanding. And try to detangle these things because I think the sentiment towards Arabs and immigrants was extremely aggressive at the time.

[00:17:55] Amr: So we had our hands busy with work with that, yeah.

[00:17:58] Colin: So you enjoyed Slovakia?

[00:17:59] Amr: Again, I love Slovakia, but I need to crack this joke because one of the best jokes that the diplomats used to say in Slovakia, the best thing about Slovakia is it's too close to Austria, which I think is not fair because the Austrians came on the weekend to Slovakia.

[00:18:13] Amr: So yeah, it's very central, allowed me to understand a lot more about the EU project. And I traveled extensively within Europe, so I was very happy with that. Yeah. 

[00:18:24] Colin: Now that brings us up your next posting was Hong Kong and Macau So tell us a little bit about how did that come into being? Were you told to go there? Do you have any say in where you're going?

[00:18:34] Amr: I hadn't gone to Asia. I mean, through my whole life, I've transited in Asia, but I actually haven't lived. That was the one last frontier for me on a personal level. Hong Kong was available. I like the idea of Hong Kong. I've always thought about Hong Kong from the past.

[00:18:49] Amr: It always had this , a great brand to it. Unfortunately, it was COVID.

[00:18:53] Amr: I came here in November on the fourth wave, right? I had to quarantine. I didn't know what was going on. But the first year, I was very lucky to get the vaccine. I just come from Egypt where I was then assistant minister for security again. We had 500 people working for us, and they all lived from outside Cairo, and they were coming into my office, not all of them, but some of them. And I was like scared about, do these people have COVID? Do they know what to do? I come here, very regulated.

[00:19:18] Amr: What an operation this was actually. I have to congratulate what was happening here in the first, I think the second year people got bit tired or what have you. I personally remain positive. Of course, I could have done a lot more professionally if we were open to business. We were not. But then I took it upon myself to start writing a few letters to the SCMP and just like highlighting.

[00:19:38] Amr: So at the time, because of COVID, we were all captive here with some of the people and became very good friends very quickly with a lot of the people that have been here for a long time. So I started trying to take the positive aspect of here when the brand was struggling and people were thinking of leaving, I wrote through letters that, Hong Kong's doing great, it's been doing very well.

[00:19:57] Amr: So from that, I think we decided with my wife and my kid who goes to HKUST, he moved from university in London to University of Science and Technology and very happy with his life here. So as a family, we were actually... A year and a half ago when everyone was leaving, we said, we're staying.

[00:20:15] Colin: So, whilst you were the Consulate General here, for Hong Kong-Macau, just a little bit, is there a big Egyptian community here? 

[00:20:24] Amr: It's small Egyptian community, unfortunately. It's a small Arab community. So this is a financial hub. It's an amazing financial hub. And I personally, when one of my tasks was like, why are we not here? Why are we not benefiting from this hub? Of course, Egypt has always maintained very strong relations with the mainland, with China.

[00:20:44] Amr: The other countries, the other Arab countries, the Gulf countries now are, are on the same wavelength geopolitically with China and commercially. So the idea was to promote that, but unfortunately, because of the COVID period, we had no visits. 

[00:20:59] Colin: Your hands were tied, really, because you couldn't even probably get over to Macau. 

[00:21:03] Amr: No, I didn't, no. And Arabs don't do Zoom. We have to visit and feel the people, trust them and understand them, yeah. 

[00:21:09] Colin: So, here in Hong Kong, you've been in diplomatic service for 30 years, and then you decided well, enough's enough, or what made you decide to leave a diplomatic service and make Hong Kong your home?

[00:21:22] Amr: I was heading towards retirement and making Hong Kong home is because I've traveled around the world. 

[00:21:28] Amr: I've been to Europe all my life. I know what Europe is and what the adventures it has, and perhaps the limitations that it has for the next 10 to 15 years. I find Asia as a very, very attractive prospect for the next 10 to 15 years. I find Hong Kong as a gateway and will remain to be so with China, the whole area, Asia Pacific. Will remain as a very competitive city. And I think I've taken a bet on it and what I'm trying to do now is to play my part in this city that has a place for everyone, that has something to offer, in my opinion is to be one of these people that can facilitate this ongoing efforts by The Chief Executive, John Lee, and his cabinet with their efforts in what they call the Middle East.

[00:22:18] Colin: You formed for Middle East and North Africa Chamber of Commerce. MENA, yes. MENA. Tell us a little bit about that because that's the platform I think you're using to develop business relations between Hong Kong, the Arab world, or the world as a whole. 

[00:22:33] Amr: MENA is actually an idea that to try to get a lobbying platform for all our companies or companies from those countries that we're not used to doing a lot of business here. And MENA is a political term that covers quite an extensive area.

[00:22:47] Amr: North African countries all the way from Morocco to Egypt. Then you have the whole Gulf- Iran, Turkey, israel. So I want to stay away from the political aspect because... there's quite a bit of politics here as well. So diplomatic representations, what you were talking before we were on recording, is what are we doing here in Hong Kong? Why do we have this presence? Is it just our citizens? Is it also commercial trade or political? So I tried to use this as a platform. To help the local authorities understand the area a bit more through doing more events and attracting more people and then lending people from that side with someone that speaks the language.

[00:23:30] Amr: They don't feel apprehensive because we see the East or some of that part of the world sees the East through some of the unfortunate negative propaganda from the West. It's difficult to deal with Asia. It's difficult to deal with China, and it's not the case for Hong Kong.

[00:23:46] Colin: Yeah, and I presume what you are also trying to do is promote Egypt, promote the Arab world people from Hong Kong, like you said, to go and do business and with Africa as well. I mean, that's what you're trying to achieve. 

[00:23:56] Amr: We have a lot, more in common that people think you need to go understand the people, build some roots and that will translate into future business. It's not the same European way where you land for two or three days, you have a few meetings and then you have a deal.

[00:24:11] Amr: It really needs a bit more time. So to do this, Then to enable or to facilitate this relationship, maybe a couple of events of cultural aspect, a couple of sports events, and now we're having the lift come... 

[00:24:22] Colin: Tell me about your sports events, because I'm a great sports fan. What other sports are we talking about?

[00:24:27] Amr: I'm I'm trying to tap into the sports that make sense for both parties. Ping Pong, we can't compete. So if there is an interest now in golf. And golf actually suits, and there's a lot of enthusiasts here. So let's focus on the things that can bring us together, that are of interest to both of us. Yeah. And that's pretty much what I'm trying to do here in the city at the moment and align myself.

[00:24:49] Amr: So I have, I made a lot of contacts through my diplomatic life and I maintain these, and it's just an ongoing dialogue to try to get the brand of Hong Kong right.

[00:24:57] Colin: Now, you mentioned earlier, you arrived in Hong Kong in the middle of COVID. We had some of the toughest restrictions in the world.

[00:25:04] Colin: Do you agree that the city is beginning to bounce back? From your experience? 

[00:25:09] Amr: Of course it is. the only thing that I might want to try to understand better is how we see here in Hong Kong, our competitive edge with what's happening in the other cities. The other cities are very aggressive. They have deep pockets and let me just talk about Riyadh or the UAE.

[00:25:27] Amr: These two cities, if you've traveled, I think everyone in Hong Kong has traveled there this last past six months to try to find some quick business. They are in the business now of enabling their citizens and securing their future and actually attracting money to those countries not to get out. 

[00:25:45] Amr: So they're in the same business of opening financial centers. So that's where I think then Hong Kong needs to just have a slightly different look at its role in the past and its role towards the mainland as a it is being commissioned to be the gateway. The East and West Connection, and it has every potential to do that.

[00:26:08] Amr: But maybe then we could think more of cultural events and more sports events to bring more people together. 

[00:26:16] Colin: So, as I always ask my guests, finally, you've chosen Hong Kong to be your home. Clearly, you like this city, you're part of the fabric here. Thoughts for the future for you and your family? You're here to stay?

[00:26:29] Amr: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean... We feel comfortable here. I mean, I look a bit Mediterranean. My wife is blonde white. So we don't have issues here at all. In many countries we've lived, we've always been looked out. But here we're very welcome. I love the food and I love a lot as well the philosophy of the East very much.

[00:26:51] Colin: It's been a privilege, great pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More. 

[00:26:58] Amr: Thank you very much for the invite.