Episode 35 - Ramesh Vaidyanathan

In this episode, we are pleased to welcome globe-trotting corporate lawyer Ramesh Vaidyanathan. In a wide-ranging discussion, Ramesh talks about practising law in his native India and the country’s growing status as a world economic power. He also provides an insight into his role as President of Ally Law, the global legal services network in which BC&C is a long-standing member. He speaks with our Senior Partner Colin Cohen.

 00:33 Introduction and Ramesh's Welcome
 01:19 Ramesh's Recent Activities and Challenges
 02:24 Ramesh's Journey to Becoming a Lawyer
 03:27 Transition to Corporate Law and Career Progression
 05:25 Experience as an In-house Lawyer at Mumbai Airport
 07:33 Establishing Own Law Firm
 09:05 Challenges and Successes in Setting Up a Law Firm
 10:06 Joining Ally Law and Its Benefits
 12:39 Role as President of Ally Law and Recent Activities
 20:31 India's Economic Growth and Global Influence
 23:44 Advaya Charitable Foundation and Social Responsibility
 26:15 Closing Remarks and Future Plans 

Host: Colin Cohen
Director: Niall Donnelly
Producer and VO: Thomas Latter      

Transcript

[00:00:32] Colin: Welcome, everybody. For this episode of Law & More, absolutely delighted to be joined by Ramesh Vadiyanathan. Ramesh is a successful corporate lawyer from India, where he is the co managing partner of BTG Advaya. He is also president of Ali Law. That is a global legal services organization in which my firm, Boase, Cohen, and Collins is a long standing member. Ramesh, welcome to our podcast and as I always ask my guests, what's been keeping you busy recently?

[00:01:04] Ramesh: Thank you, Colin. It's an absolute privilege to be joining your podcast. And I have actually listened to some of your previous editions and I found the conversations extremely engaging. So I'm totally flattered to be invited to join this podcast. And in terms of what's keeping me busy, the last few months have been two things.

[00:01:23] Ramesh: One is, the recent merger that our firm went through. Where we have now become much larger. Our practice areas have expanded. We have now got a national footprint. We were earlier only in Mumbai. Now we are in Mumbai, Delhi, and Bangalore. In terms of meeting partners and you know this Colin.

[00:01:41] Ramesh: Law firm business is a very personality oriented, very individual specific business. So merger is not easy, it's tricky. Because you are getting into bed with people, after having spent nearly two and a half decades running your own thing. So there's a lot of flexibility expected, a lot of accommodation involved.

[00:02:02] Ramesh: So I'm busy with that. That's one part of my day. The other part of my day is obviously Ally Law, which is an important role, the president of a very, very prestigious law firm network. And we'll probably get to speak about the network a little later in the call.

[00:02:21] Colin: Yes, I definitely want to do that as well. So what I'm interested in a little bit is to go, let's go back in time, how did you become a lawyer?

[00:02:28] Ramesh: So I grew up actually in the South of India, Colin, in a place called Kerala, we call it God's Own Country, it's Venice of the East, a lot of backwaters, a lot of greenery. So my upbringing was in a very small town. I would say probably a rural area.

[00:02:43] Ramesh: I had a lower middle class upbringing. I went to the local schools. I studied in the local vernacular language. So that was a great learning experience. I went to college in that small town, and then when it came to choosing a professional course, and I must be candid I had to choose law because I couldn't get into engineering, I couldn't get into medicine, and law was like the last option, so I had to really go for it. And those days, I must tell you, there were no entrance exams, you could easily walk into a law school, so I can't really claim any credit for enrolling myself in law school. So it was more of a default option, I should say, but I did well, I qualified in law with the university rank. So I think I acquitted myself reasonably well. 

[00:03:26] Colin: Joining and getting into the legal profession, you joined a largest firm, I understand, as a junior associate in Delhi.

[00:03:33] Ramesh: So what happened was that, in Kerala, you could not have taken up corporate law. So you had to either move to Delhi or Mumbai. If you wanted to specialize in corporate law. And so that's what I did. I took a train and went to Delhi to pursue a corporate law career. And and I was lucky to find a job with this law firm with offices and only in Delhi at that point in time.

[00:03:56] Ramesh: And the big break came for me in 2001, when they asked me if I wanted to go and set up an office in Mumbai. And I was only four years in the profession. I had just been promoted as a partner. I was the youngest partner of the firm and I moved to Mumbai in 2001 and suddenly I had to manage a team, set up business from scratch, and for me, Colin, that was a completely game changing moment, the move to set up an office in Mumbai.

[00:04:22] Ramesh: So that was a fantastic experience.

[00:04:25] Colin: Did you enjoy the city?

[00:04:26] Ramesh: I did, and Mumbai is obviously very busy, lots of firms that had a, lineage going, dating back to the British period. So we had firms at Mulla Mulla, Crawford Bailey. Some of these firms were more than 100, 125 years old. So you were kind of walking into a lion's den.

[00:04:44] Ramesh: When you were setting up in Mumbai, but I thought it was great. And also one thing I must say in favor of the city is that it's a highly accommodating and welcoming city. It gives everyone a chance. And it's probably arguably the most professional city in India. So I think I love the city.

[00:05:02] Colin: You were a commercial lawyer. You weren't involved in too much litigation, I understand.

[00:05:06] Ramesh: I did not, but those days when we were still experimenting with corporate law in India, we would probably do everything, so I did a bit of litigation, a bit of corporate law. So I thought I had a decent exposure to all aspects, but now most of my work is generally in the coroporate transactional area.

[00:05:24] Colin: And I understand also for a little bit, you moved into an in-house position. Tell us a little bit about that.

[00:05:30] Ramesh: Yeah, that's an interesting story, Colin, because this was in 2006. And India was actually looking to privatize its airports through a private public partnership model. And this is very prestigious because India had never done this before. As airports are monopoly businesses, right?

[00:05:47] Ramesh: And you're handing over the busiest airport in India, in Mumbai to a private party. So they were looking for a lawyer as the first legal head. And I said, okay, I'll come in. It was an interesting project and Colin, I must spend a couple of minutes telling you how interesting it was.

[00:06:02] Ramesh: This is developing the Mumbai airport. Now, you've been to the Mumbai airport? 

[00:06:07] Colin: I've had some interesting experiences there.

[00:06:10] Ramesh: Sure, so imagine the busiest airport handling nearly 25 million passengers just has one runway. It's got a cross runway. So you can either have a takeoff or a landing at any given point in time.

[00:06:23] Ramesh: The airport land is completely encircled by slums where about 300,000 people live. So you have a situation where you cannot remove those people. You cannot acquire those lands because it's a politically sensitive issue and you have to still improve efficiencies. So the challenge was to rebuild an airport, which you cannot stop a single flight.

[00:06:47] Ramesh: You have to build the infrastructure. And there's a fascinating experience as a lawyer, just being part of this project.

[00:06:53] Colin: And did you work at the airport? Was your offices at the airport or were your offices downtown?

[00:06:57] Ramesh: I was at the airport and what I loved the most was the ability with very powerful pass to go inside the airport. I would not have to be frisked and I could go near the planes. I had a lot of privileges. I would have a car pick me up from the tarmac. So I just enjoyed all of that that came with the airport role.

[00:07:14] Ramesh: And also the best part was you could meet a lot of people because you'd have friends call in and say, listen, I'm, I have some extra time. Are you free to meet? So I would get to meet a lot of people. And I thought it was fun being at the airport.

[00:07:26] Colin: Yeah, and then I understand after a little bit of time, you then decided perhaps airplanes were enough. And you decided that to set up your own law firm. How did that come about?

[00:07:36] Ramesh: So the airport role was kind of plateauing because once you build an airport then all you're doing is basically leasing all the space, your duty free contracts, your, concessions for hotels and all that stuff, advertising. So I felt this was getting into a more of an operational role.

[00:07:54] Ramesh: And that's when I decided. Should I be going into a different in house role or should I setting up, should I be setting up on my own? Or should I perhaps go into a much larger firm? And my earlier stint, as someone who set up the firm in Mumbai for the other firm, really gave me a lot of confidence to really say, why don't I try something on my own?

[00:08:15] Ramesh: And I told my wife that the worst case, I'll blow up all our savings. I'll be back to square one. And then I promise you, I'll go back to a job, and bring home the bread. And she said, go for it. And so I started out with Advaya Legal. This was in the year 2010. And I started with one associate and a lot of people promised me work but then things didn't materialize.

[00:08:39] Ramesh: But a lot of people who I didn't expect would send me work actually sent me work. So It all worked out fine. And most importantly, my then employer continued to give me work. So the airport became my first client. So there was then no looking back after that.

[00:08:54] Colin: I mean, I know what it's like setting up a law firm. Did you have any real difficult hurdles at the start to get your footprint known, get to know people as well? 

[00:09:02] Ramesh: Yeah. Extremely challenging because people were not sure about what kind of clients you had from a recruitment standpoint. Convincing good lawyers to join you was extremely difficult. I could only make promises and I had nothing to show in terms of work or anything other than the fact that I had run someone else's office in Mumbai.

[00:09:22] Ramesh: I had been in house. So recruitment was a huge challenge. Clients was, I would say, slightly easier because I think some people who had worked with me at the airport, some of the airlines, for example, who I had really fought with as the airport council, they all said, Hey, this guy is now on the other side.

[00:09:39] Ramesh: We can probably now get him to represent us. So I was hired by all of the airlines. to act for them in some matters before the tariff authority. So initially I would say it was challenging, but it all actually fell in place over a period of time.

[00:09:54] Colin: That's interesting. Now this is a good, stepping stone into talking about when we first got to know each other. You're working in India. I mean, India is a very interesting legal system. Colonial started all off and then it developed with its own unique laws as well and, the common law and etc, etc.

[00:10:11] Colin: We decided that, we needed a member for Alley Law to help our listeners. It's a sort of global referral network of good law firms in all other jurisdictions. And you're now president of that august organization, of which I was at one stage.

[00:10:25] Colin: I'll come back to that. Let's talk a little bit how you came into us.

[00:10:28] Ramesh: Sure. This was actually maybe a couple of years into setting up my firm. And I wanted to join a network that was not too large but had high quality firms that I could hope to do work for. And that's how I came across Ally Law. And I wrote to the network and I was happy to be hired.

[00:10:48] Ramesh: What impressed me the most, Colin, and I think you were the president at that time, was the whole rigorous process and the seriousness with which the network took recruitment. So I thought I sent all the credentials and I thought it was a done deal. And then I was informed that no, not yet.

[00:11:04] Ramesh: We're going to visit your firm. And we had the then UK member visit my firm in Mumbai. There were a lot of questions. Not just met me, they met my colleagues. So I liked the fact that the process was extremely rigorous. And then that's how I got recruited.

[00:11:21] Ramesh: And I think meeting you and chatting with you. I thought was also one of the reasons why I thought this made a lot of sense. So that's how I became a member of Ally Law.

[00:11:30] Colin: Yeah, I mean, just to help our listeners out. I mean, we're a global network of independent law firms. I mean, everyone does our own thing. We all have our own different DNAs. We have regions from the Americas, South America, Europe, Asia, Asia Pacific. We have about now 70 plus firms, I think maybe more 74, 75 law firms as of today's date. Each firm is a sort of middle to medium sized law firms within their jurisdictions and it is on referrals. So how it works is that I can say to any of my clients, I have a difficulty on an issue in India, do not worry. I can refer you straight away and instant referrals to my good friend Ramesh and his firm who will do an excellent job for you.

[00:12:14] Colin: And it's a sort of cross fertilization. In respect of ensuring we get more and more business. And as over the time, the network has grown and grown. We've got a professional team, we have a CEO, Wendy Horne, and she's very heavily involved in our marketing, in our profiles, our website.

[00:12:32] Colin: And to ensure that we all are able to develop and get business per se as being part of this network. I'm giving you a big plug. And I mean, when I was president, I didn't have any support at the time I had to recruit, but right now, it's your job to take it to a new level.

[00:12:48] Colin: So perhaps you can sort of tell everyone a little bit, you've been visiting about the regional meetings, what you've been doing recently for the network. 

[00:12:54] Ramesh: Just a couple of things, Colin, in addition to what you mentioned about Ally Law. I thought a couple of things I wanted to mention for the benefit of the listeners. One is the rigorous client service standards, because I think that's one of the key aspects. There's an expectation that you would deliver a certain quality of service.

[00:13:13] Ramesh: And I think the other thing that I wanted to mention is many of our member firms and lawyers have worked together since the organization was founded nearly 30 years ago and calling this better than anyone. So there's a seamless connection. And there's also an integrated service for the clients and as you also mentioned, these are independent firms.

[00:13:30] Ramesh: Rates for clients are set by firms themselves. So in that sense, Ally Law offers actually better value than perhaps large firms that have huge overhead costs. So I thought those were certain aspects that probably go in favor of Ally Law in the overall scheme of things. So just coming back to your question, I think the challenging part of being president is just the travel that the president is expected to do.

[00:13:56] Ramesh: And particularly for me this year with the merger happening and, there's just so much going on at work. And a fantastic year in terms of business. This has really been a lot of travel, but I've enjoyed every bit of it. And I will briefly speak about the three meetings.

[00:14:11] Ramesh: The first meeting was the Americas meeting for me as the first meeting as a president. This was hosted by a member firm, Voris,

[00:14:18] Colin: In Ohio, USA. Yeah. 

[00:14:21] Ramesh: They're also in Texas and some of the other cities. Great firm, a legacy of more than 100 years. And it was interesting actually. Apart from the social, all these meetings have great content.

[00:14:32] Ramesh: And that's what I wanted to mention apart from just networking opportunities, lot of these meetings offer great value in terms of best practices. So I'm always making notes about what I can do. Going back implements things in my own firm and Colin, I must tell you about this recent conversation I had with one of the member firms.

[00:14:52] Ramesh: I said, do you really have a consultants or CEO? How do you go about implementing new ideas? They said, you know what I do? I come to these meetings, I steal ideas that other member firms are doing and then implement it in my firm. I thought that was a great takeaway for some of these meetings.

[00:15:10] Ramesh: So Vorice was fantastic. Typically in these meetings we have the local host firm invite their clients, invite some of the key partners to speak to us about new areas. And Vorice actually had interestingly ventured into other businesses apart from law.

[00:15:27] Ramesh: So they actually had people come in and speak about those issues and how they've actually started making much more money from those businesses. So it's quite interesting. Something, maybe some of the other bar councils may not permit. So it may not be an option available to, I don't know about Hong Kong, but definitely not in India.

[00:15:44] Ramesh: We will probably not be permitted to do other businesses as a law firm.

[00:15:48] Colin: And nor would we, in Hong Kong as well.

[00:15:51] Ramesh: But it was interesting to see Vorys do this and in that sense, become an outlier. And that was very impressive. And again, I must say all the three meetings this year have had record turnouts. So we had perhaps the best ever participation for the meeting in Columbus.

[00:16:07] Ramesh: Then the second meeting we had was the EMEA meeting. The Europe, Middle East and Africa meeting that was in Milan that was organized by GT and partners, the Italian member firm. Again, a great meeting. The focus was a lot on sustainability. We had experts come in and speak about various topics of sustainability, fantastic social program.

[00:16:29] Ramesh: Then the last meeting was the one which is...

[00:16:31] Colin: Let me interrupt you. You forgot about the meeting. You did a side trip to Paris for the IBA. 

[00:16:38] Ramesh: Absolutely. 

[00:16:39] Colin: I was there, because I was there for very, very important meetings and the Rugby World Cup Final and others. But I did get away from the rugby and I did meet up with our French member and with yourself and we did hold one of the best ever cocktail parties for Ally Law in an attempt to try to find new members on the rooftop provided by our illustrious French member Alireon.

[00:17:02] Colin: I think I can say speaking out of school, we were, we were way, way over the capacity on top of the roof. But that didn't bother the French anyway. And you were there and we were all there and I think in the end the day we did quite well. So tell everyone you are a real globetrotter.

[00:17:15] Ramesh: No, so actually now what happened was that, especially for the benefit of the listeners, we are now organizing an annual cocktail reception at one of the largest lawyers conferences in the world, which is the International Bar Association Conference. We started last year in Miami, where we organized again, a similar setting, Colin.

[00:17:35] Ramesh: Rooftop overlooking the waters. And mind you, you're competing at these conferences, you're competing with hundred other receptions that are all happening at the same time. So people are having to choose between 10 different receptions. And many said this was one of the best. And similarly for Paris, as you mentioned, great setting, people were loving the pictures, with Eiffel Tower at the backdrop.

[00:17:59] Ramesh: And what we do with these receptions is we try and invite potential Ally Law member firms to come. They get to meet existing member firms, but more importantly, they also get to see the value of being part of such a large organization. So we did that in Paris.

[00:18:14] Colin: That was great. I mean I really enjoyed that. And of course then you jetted over, you went to Italy, which had a great regional conference. And then we had the Asia Pacific Regional meeting in Tokyo.

[00:18:24] Ramesh: And just one, quick word about the European meeting. Again, Colin, the best ever meeting in terms of number of people, we had several young lawyers attend the meeting in Milan. Then, yes, last week was Tokyo, our Asia Pacific meeting.

[00:18:39] Ramesh: And again, we had the best turnout for the region. Except for the member firm from Philippines, we had all other member firms represented. Your firm was very well represented by Alex and other colleagues. And again, the topics were on AI. We had something on mergers and acquisitions, compliance. And the most remarkable part of the meeting, Colin, is that we had 35 clients attend the meeting.

[00:19:07] Ramesh: So, our host firm Blakemore Mitsui, actually brought in several of their clients to the meeting, and it was a great for meeting them for many of our member firms. And then we all went in the evening to sing karaoke. So, how can we not do it while in Tokyo.

[00:19:25] Ramesh: So you can see recordings of that in our social media handles.

[00:19:28] Colin: Well, I'm looking forward and I presume that everybody was impeccably well behaved. Unfortunately, I was not there. I wasn't able to be there. But my phone was well represented by our managing partner, Alex Liu. You're very, very busy. You're doing Alley Law. You're the president. I can tell you, I can tell our listeners, when I was president, it's not always that easy.

[00:19:46] Colin: There's lots of fires to put out, having to mediate and deal with other matters. It's never easy running a big organization. And at the same time, you've merged your firm into this new firm, you're expanding, you're growing, you're having more debt for more quality as well.

[00:20:02] Colin: And let's talk a little bit about India, because, I remember when we held the Annual General Meeting in India. It was hosted by your firm, I attended. I dressed up as a Raj in our final dinner just, to be a part of the atmosphere. It's a fabulous country with cultures, religions, different languages, huge, huge democracy, as well.

[00:20:23] Colin: And with the World Cup cricket. Being there, we have climate change, we have your well known President Modi, as well. Are you a global economic power that's going to challenge China and the USA?

[00:20:35] Colin: What a terrible question to ask you. 

[00:20:37] Ramesh: No, but let me probably just share some general statistical information also in response. So India has been one of the fastest growing economies in the world over the past few decades. And a lot of factors have contributed to this strong, strong domestic consumption is one rising investment is another growing export sector.

[00:20:57] Ramesh: We are now a leading exporter of goods and services with exports of over 350 billion in the last financial year. What is attractive as far as India is concerned? It's a large and growing market, a relatively low cost of living and a government that is really committed to improving the ease of doing business. And we're also now calling a leader in a number of sectors, you know. Information technology, pharmaceuticals, renewable energy. And then you're looking at what's the other game changer is a large and growing population with a median age of 29. A manufacturing sector, which is contributing nearly 15 percent to the GDP. 

[00:21:36] Ramesh: We are talking about a vibrant startup ecosystem with over 100,000 startups. If you look at education, for example a gross enrollment ratio for colleges in the 18 to 23 age group stands at 28. So, which is also significant.

[00:21:52] Ramesh: So, I think there's a lot of things going on which is actually favorable from an Indian investment standpoint. So that's what I wanted to mention. If I may just rattle out some more statistics. We are growing at a steady pace.

 We had a Chandrayaan 2 mission which reached the moon, and we became the first country to land a spacecraft on the lunar South Pole. And our digital payment platform the UPI, United Payment Interface crossed 5 billion transactions per month, which became the world's fastest growing payment system.

[00:22:24] Ramesh: And just give you one more item. The digital identity program, Aadhaar has reached 1.3 billion users. Making it the world's largest biometric identification system. So I think if you really look around you will see a lot of optimism within the country, a lot of hope.

[00:22:41] Ramesh: So going back to your question. We are, I think most likely going to be one of the top. Probably the third largest economy by 2030. So very excited about that.

[00:22:51] Colin: That is fair. I've been to India, not that recently, but just listening and seeing what's happening there is quite amazing. The G 20 Summit was there in September and, everyone was there, and so India is there on the map. Can India play a role in world politics?

[00:23:11] Ramesh: I think so, I think we have the ability to play such a role. We have strong economic growth and India is also fairly large enough, Colin to be able to stay independent and influence the conversation in the region. Which is what I feel is what is going in favor of India.

[00:23:27] Ramesh: It, India is also, for example, it's position on some of the geopolitical issues. It's strategic location. All of these, I feel, add tremendous value to India's role as a G20 you know you know,

[00:23:41] Colin: Yeah, I'm very optimistic for India. Ramesh, you do lots of other things which I know, and there's one area which I do know a little bit about, is the Advaya Charitable Foundation. You're heavily involved in that. To me, that's very, very important. The things we do outside the law, which we have to do to help those who may need more help.

[00:23:58] Colin: Can you tell everyone a little bit about that, and how that's going at the moment?

[00:24:02] Ramesh: Sure. So essentially what this does is essentially supports charities and organizations that help Children from underprivileged background to become lawyers. So essentially we identify students, let's say from the high school level, start creating awareness about the legal profession. And then to the extent some of those students are inclined, we make sure that we provide funds for their law school admission entrance coaching examinations.

[00:24:30] Ramesh: Then once the ones who are selected, we help them through the law school fees and the entire process. Then we secure internships for them while they're students. So for that purpose, we enlist other law firms and companies that provide internships. And once they become lawyers. We facilitate their placement in law firms and companies.

[00:24:52] Ramesh: So it's an entire life cycle, so to speak, of creating awareness about the profession and then hand holding them through the various stages of becoming a lawyer and eventually making sure and then use them as success stories to inspire other people and similarly continue the entire process and cycle all over again.

[00:25:11] Ramesh: So that's been keeping us busy. And that's one area that we'd like to continue to focus. Now with a merged firm, I think priorities are only going to expand. Wildlife is one of the key areas that we are looking at adding to our portfolio of socially conscious projects.

[00:25:26] Ramesh: So yeah, so a lot of these things are keeping us very busy and and it's also kind of aligned with the focus within Ally Law to create more and more sustainable projects, and I think it's also to some extent, the vested interest in this is that some of this is actually coming from clients.

[00:25:41] Ramesh: Clients are increasingly asking us about gender diversity. What's your contribution to various social projects, and I think those are really becoming factors that go into recruitment decisions in terms of potential candidates wanting to join your firm and potential clients wanting to hire you.

[00:25:59] Ramesh: So I think in a way, that's a perfect combination of you wanting to do the right thing and the market also expecting you to do the right thing. 

[00:26:07] Colin: That is very, very important. And I'm really glad to see with your new merger, all the things you're going to be doing. Of course, there's one thing I do want to do with you, and I have promised myself this, but I do want to go and watch the All the England Test Match with you.

[00:26:21] Colin: when England next come to India, so we can sit down for many hours watching cricket. In Delhi or Mumbai or the New Modi Stadium, which I think is magnificent. 100,000 people plus. That's something which I'm really looking forward to. 

[00:26:35] Ramesh: Everything comes to a halt when there's a cricket match going on. No conference call.

[00:26:39] Colin: No conference calls as well. Ramesh, it's been a pleasure and honor chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining us on Law & More.

[00:26:47] Ramesh: Thank you Colin. I enjoyed this conversation and look forward to meeting you very soon. Thank you.