090 Risky Play, Fun, and the Life of Faith

Why do kids climb trees, run really fast, and spin until they fall over? What is the benefit of risky play? And what does that have to do with attaching to God and our spiritual life?

In this episode, we look at the research regarding play and how it connects to attaching to God.

Baggage Claim: Don't miss the new segment where we finish by claiming some overproductive tendencies we share. 

Resources: 

• The Circle of Security (website)
• "Decline in Independent Activity as a Cause of Decline in Children’s Mental Well-being" (article PDF)
• The Anxious Generation (book)

Stay Connected:

• NEED spiritual direction or coaching that aligns with this podcast? Connect with Cyd Holsclaw here.
• Join the Embodied Faith community to stay connected and get posts, episodes, & resources.
• Support the podcast with a one-time or regular gift (to keep this ad-free without breaking the Holsclaw's bank).

Transcript

 Why do kids sometimes climb trees, run real fast and jump off crazy structures? Is there any benefit to risky play? And what does that have to do with attaching to God and our spiritual life? That's what we're talking about today. We are Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw, and this is the Attaching to God podcast where we are integrating neuroscience and spiritual life.

formation. So this is kind of a summer episode, Cyd, where we're just kind of, uh, you know, I preached on, uh, theology of fun a couple of days ago and we're like, we should just make a podcast out of it. So that's what we're doing. This is a summer episode. I'm wearing a hat to be a little more casual. What's one of the summary things that you've been excited about so far?

Shortly. Uh, well, I am going on a lovely walk with a friend this afternoon and I have yet to pull out my kayak this summer, which is a real bummer, but I hope to go kayaking very soon. I've got some fresh tomatoes growing on my vine and my flowers. I love my flowers in the summertime. And we're going to go to the beach.

And we're going to go to the beach tomorrow. It's kind of like a work time. We're going to kind of work at the beach. We're reading, working at the beach, working in a beautiful place. Yes. So that's super great. So, all right. So along with the fun summary activities, Let's talk about risky play. What is risky play and why do kids engage in it?

I was climbing a tree as a kid. I fell out a tree, split my head open. But did that keep me from climbing trees again? No. I kept climbing trees. I did random stuff, ride bicycles fast. And, uh, Jonathan Height in his, uh, book, uh, anxious Generation. He talks about the shift between play based childhood to a phone based childhood and how we've lost, uh, a lot of things, but he listed, he looked into the research, uh, and I'm going to say these things, then maybe this, I did not prepare Cyd for this, but then you could say, cause we raised two boys, uh, not that girls don't do these things too, but then you could say, uh, examples of our kids doing this.

Okay. Okay. This is a speed round. I'm testing your, your memory, which you're probably not that excited about. You know how good my memory is. Yeah. So, uh, kids love, uh, seeking thrills as part of risky play. Uh, and so they do this in about five different ways. One would be heights, climbing trees, or getting on top of playground structures and getting high to the ground.

Well, that one was definitely a daily, a daily occurrence for us. We lived right across the street from a playground and whenever we would go to the playground, it would be moments before we Sorin was always on top of the swing set, not on a swing, but he had somehow managed to shimmy up one of the Cyde poles and gotten up to the top of the swing.

It was like sitting up there. And I got a lot of dirty looks from other moms because I. Would let him part of Jonathan Heights research is that our playground structures have become more quote safe, but that means kids have to do more to make it feel riskier. And so instead of playing on the playground structure, they're playing on top of it.

They're climbing on top of things. Uh, just last week we got a picture from our almost 20 year old son who climbed our tree in our front yard and then sent the whole family pictures. Cause he's like, Oh, I just decided to climb the tree. Okay. Okay. The next one. Is briefly high speeds, going in high speeds, spinning around, swinging, going down slides or riding bikes.

Oh, well, spinning of course, is a, every kid does that, right? Kid does that. And the high speeds. Yeah. There were, we didn't have a whole lot of Hills around us, but every Hill we did have, they found it. There were also, uh, dangerous tools. So we had a neighbor who like let our kids play with all of their power tools and regular tools.

Right? Yeah. Wow. Not unsupervised, right? Not a super. Okay. Uh, the rough and tumble. Obviously we had like daily wrestle time, which was so fun to watch now. And I was like a way working. So this last one, maybe you have stories, but disappearing kids like to disappear and hide or sometimes wander away. Is there a wander away kind of story I could think of?

It's probably has to do with grocery store is a classic place where kids like to wander away. Um, but yeah, they loved to hide and we had the perfect place. property for it. There were so many places and yeah, they loved to hide and they thought it was great fun when I would come looking for them because I let them play outCyde on their own because there weren't any people around.

And I would come calling them for lunch and I would hear little giggles, but I couldn't find them. But I knew that they were nearby and they loved that I had to look for them. And then when I would finally find them, they just got such great delight out of like, you didn't know where we were. Yeah. Right.

So there's something about that, you know, and certainly with hiding has to do with the relationship. So, um, I used to do that a lot when I was a kid. Oh yeah. You were the hider. I liked to disappear and then listen as people came looking for me and. I would allow a certain amount of frustration before I would finally reveal myself.

So disappearing was like also building your agency, right? It's like, I am in control of this situation. They have to come find me. I like it. So, so short term there's all sorts of benefits to unstructured play. Kids like it. Uh, they get to have a little bit of agency, they learn some confidence and collaboration, but there's also long term, uh, benefits, um, of building an imagination, building social emotional skills, as well as executive functioning.

So, um. Executive functioning? Yes. How does it build executive functioning? I'm curious. Well, I think when you, um, allow kids to like have a project. An unstructured project, um, where they're doing their own thing. They have to, uh, so, uh, we'll take another example of like chalk, uh, chalk art, like on the driveway.

So if they run out of chalk or they don't have the colors they need, then they have to go find more. But that's not risky. No, that's not risky. It's not risky play at that point. It's just play it's unstructured. But so we're talking about risky play. Uh, but I'll just all play, uh, all unstructured. So it's the idea of like, you need to find the resources you need to do the thing you want to do, and then you'll encounter problems, do some problem.

Okay. Rather than having the parent who's structuring the play, who's always providing the who's yeah, who's figuring things out in advance. Oh, they're about to run out of chalk. I'm going to get the, they need some water. I'm going to go get the water. Like they must be thirsty. So it's kind of like if, uh, kids don't have unstructured play, then they don't develop some of that.

Like Like, I need to do this and then I need to do that and then I need to do that. Or if I want this little, uh, um, something I'm, you know, like our kids built a little fort like way out in the backyard and they had to get some, you know, hammers and nails and they drag back and forth to, they made a lot of trips back and forth to get one thing for sure.

Okay. So how does this all relate then to, uh, attaching to God, uh, do you want to jump into the circle security and the safe haven and secure. Base, although we always launchpad, different language for that. So there's language that the professionals use and then there's what we make up, but yeah, there's the idea of, um, secure attachment has this, uh, going out and coming back kind of dynamic.

So the going out, the coming back dynamic is that they know they always have a safe place to come back to you, a place where they are accepted and loved and, uh, And people want to be with them, um, but then that also gives them the security and the courage to go out from that, um, sort of carrying the remembrance of, I have a place to return to as they go out.

And so it's that dynamic of going out, exercising their independence, and then coming back and returning to that intimacy and that connection that they have with their attached people. So when they go out, the caregivers, you know, they want to watch, have a support them, celebrate them and encourage them.

So you offer them courage to go out, but you can also give them comfort, uh, when they come in and play is kind of that integral kind of, it's part of that motion. Uh, Of the in between, especially when kids are small, um, you know, even with infants, when you're playing games with them, um, it is that circle where you're ramping them up with like a joyful peekaboo kind of activity, which is great for the nervous system, but then they get overwhelmed, so then they need to like calm down and the attuned parents will kind of ramp down the game until they've calmed down.

And then you start it up again. And so play is kind of, it's the, with infants. It's that early kind of place where all that kind of starts happening. Yeah. But you also see this a lot with like older kids, like elementary school kids, and that idea of like, when they're away from you and they're doing something, and then when they come back to you, they want to share, you know, if they're like, look what I made or, um, You know, I did this and, and it was really funny that they teach you the stuff they learned.

Did you know that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And you're like, yeah, I knew that. But you can't say, yeah, I knew that. It takes all the joy away from like, I did something independently and I want to share it with you. And it was funny when we were working on our book recently, we were writing that chapter and it dawned on me.

Can I talk about how you cold plunge and then wanted to like, so we had this, Geoff got an old freezer off of Facebook and turned it into a cold plunge. And, um, when he first started doing it, it was like, he would cold plunge and then come in the house and be like, I sat in there for like three and a half minutes.

And at first I was like, are you going to tell me every single time you cold plunge and how long you were in there for? And finally I was like, Oh, he's sharing his independence with me. And what did you do yesterday? I called because Cyd just, just, uh, Cyd has been cold plunging, but she needs moral support.

It's hard to get into the water yourself. Our younger son, Tennyson also been cold plunging. So sometimes we'll all go, go out and take turns like three or four minutes at a time. But then Cyd got back from. The, uh, the gym, she's like, I'm going to cold plunge. Can you come out for moral support? And I was like, I texted, I was like, I'm on a call with somebody else.

And then, uh, she called, she did it by herself. And then she came by the door so I could see her while I was on this call. And I did like a fist in the air, like I did it by myself. So we all sell. So even even now circle of security, it's like, look at this great thing I did by myself. And now I'm coming back to my secure relationship, but I want to celebrate that I have what it takes in the world.

So, so even now as adults, we still, and you know, you and I are attachment figures to each other. Uh, and. You know, our romantic relationship. And so we even share, we spur on each other and then we also want to share it. Um, and so that keeps happening. Uh, so, so fun is part of that process. Uh, and, and so the Bible actually has a lot of fun in it.

And, uh, and we could talk more about, uh, yeah, the Bible does. Cause a lot of times we don't think that, right. Cause it's all these serious stories. Someone's in trouble, someone's sinning, blah, blah, blah. So, um, But the structure of like the annual calendar that God gave to Israel is full of seven different festivals, seven different like block parties, family parties, family reunions.

Um, and six of them are parties where you're eating and only one, the day of atonement is really like a serious fast where you're like, Oh yeah, we have to talk about sin and focus on sin. Uh, and so the annual, uh, rhythms of the people of Israel was, uh, Kind of based around fun and you get a lot of fun, uh, otherwise known as praise or worship in the book of Psalms.

Yeah. And worship is really similar to play in that. Uh, it's that I'm going to, I'm going to, but that, that, you know, play is like on the edge of like, it's, it's caught up completely in the moment. It has really kind of, and this is going to sound bad because worship does have a purpose, but it's almost getting lost in a moment and you get caught up in the thing that you're doing.

And worship can be like that, where you get caught up in the moment. It's something that's done for its own sake. Um, it doesn't like, it doesn't have a productive, Or like in a gen, I mean, the agenda is of course to enter into worship with God, but it has, it has, it's done for its own sake. And there aren't that many things that we do that are done for its own sake.

Well, and so even in Psalm 50, you know, Psalm 150, you have all this list of things, you know, it's all throughout the Psalms where you're supposed to dance. You know, kids love dancing, love having fun, spinning around, of course, you're supposed to sing, you're supposed to make music, but you're also supposed to just make noise, uh, which you know, all of us as parents have gotten those Christmas gifts from other relatives that are like the really noisy toy.

Oh yeah, the ones that you just conveniently never put batteries in and your kids don't even know they make noise. Oh my gosh, that toy is horrible, but the kids love it. They just keep Pressing that button or the, the chingy, you know, right. So even the psalms say like make a clash of symbols teacher and someone's just clicking.

Oh yeah. Yeah. That bothers me. Anyone clicking a pen is just in any situation drives me crazy. So, uh, dancing, spinning around, making noise. Uh, worship is supposed to be fun for the most part. And I know for some, uh, some. Tradition, church traditions, you know, worship is supposed to be very serious, but you don't get that as much.

Now, of course, the book of Psalms has room for negative emotions, getting angry, being sad, feeling helpless or hopeless, right? So it's not just that the Psalms are like all fun, but we do have to remember that, um, That there's quite a bit of fun. And then Jesus was also fun. Absolutely. Yeah. He was being accused of being a drunkard because he was so good at having fun.

That's right. So he was invited to a bunch of parties and if he was no fun, you don't get invited to parties. Now that isn't to say that Jesus was. was a drunkard, but he certainly wasn't making people feel bad about having fun or doing fun things. Uh, and it's where we get, you know, our famous, uh, parables was him answering this objection.

So what are those parables from Luke 15? Oh, the last sheep and the last coin. And yeah, the, there's one more last thing. Oh, is it the prodigal son? The prodigal son. Yeah. The lot, the parable of the lost son. It was really the two lost sons. Right. The prodigal God. And then what is like the punchline that Jesus is trying to convey to the Pharisees is that heaven throws a party whenever something that's lost is found.

Amen. Yeah. So all of heaven is throwing a party. Um, it's having fun. Right. Uh, when this is like the moral that Jesus was, was telling us. So then how does, How does risky fun? I'm going to throw this to you, Cyd. How does risky fun fit into our faith journey then? Well, I think there's a couple ways. Um, first of all, I think we could all have a little more fun in our, I mean, people, we get so self conscious about the ways in which we worship.

And rather than, you know, it'd be great if we could all be a little more childlike and the way myself included, you know, you don't want to be the only one who's, you know, uh, dancing in worship or clapping or whatever else. But I think that there are ways that we can be less self conscious, less self absorbed and enter into spaces in a more childlike way.

And then. You know, I think even having more gatherings, more parties, more just, you know, having more fun in a centered around Jesus kind of way, uh, would be a great thing. And then I know there's something that you queued me up that you want me to say, and I can't, I'm, I'm lost it right now. It's the, uh, the vineyard, uh, faith is spelled R I S K.

Yes. So John Wimber was famous for saying that, that faith is spelled R I S K. It was John Wimber that I don't know. I think so. It's a vineyard thing from somewhere. It's a vineyard ism. It's a vineyard ism. But that idea that faith is taking a risk and that you have to sometimes go outCyde of your comfort zone and do something risky, um, in the name of faith.

So that's things like, you know, praying for healing and talking about Jesus when it doesn't feel comfortable to do that. And You know, worshiping in different ways and trusting God and that sort of like, yeah, pushing yourself to your limits and trusting that God will fill in the gaps and you have what it takes.

And this is where our spiritual life is different than, you know, our embodied human life where, you know, I could do, our kids are doing risky play kind of. far from us, and then if something goes wrong, critically wrong, or if they're just overwhelmed, then they come to us physically, um, emotionally for support.

But the thing is, is our life of faith, and this is what, um, you know, this kind of vineyardism of faith is spelled R I S K, is that actually you find God, In the risky thing, you actually find that when you push into that risk, uh, and hopefully make it playful, uh, that cause that disarms people also, you know, it's kind of like an experiment.

Well, just for the sake of doing something, you're risking not to, you know, you're risking in love, in love. And then you find that God is right there even more that you you're then cultivating the ability to see and find God in all the moments when you take a risk. Some more of those risks. And so instead of the risk being, and this is sometimes where the charismatic or kind of more activist church can get into trouble, which is like, well, I have to go out, I have to do the work, whether that's, um, you know, feeding the poor on the edge, I have to do all these things for God.

And then sometimes I come back, uh, and then I have a quiet time or prayer time, or we have a worship experience, but really that's not the spiritual life isn't meant to be like that. It's like God is in all those places and that we should be attentive to loving God and loving others. In the midst of all those things.

Uh, and we, when we do, when we step out and risk a little bit and then hopefully have a lot of fun and some play, then I think that cultivates us more into a kind of people that people want to be around and more of a kind of people where God or is experienced through us. Did that make sense? I don't know.

I was just kind of making that up. Hopefully. Yeah. Any last thoughts? Uh, No, I don't think so. All right. So we're gonna, we're gonna, this is kind of the goofy thing. It's going to be serious at some point, but we were thinking we're going to add this section at the end of each podcast called baggage claim, where we have to claim our relational baggage.

Okay. Well, actually, I think the first thing that we can claim in baggage claim and this, I didn't tell you about this at the time is I think the first thing we can claim is that we thought it'd be a really great idea to start podcasting again. Like the month before our book manuscript was due. Remember that?

We thought it'd be a great idea. And, uh, the month before our first son was married. Yeah. So we thought right before we have a wedding and right before we turn our book manuscript. So you want me to claim my over productiveness where I aspire to do everything all the time, all at once? I want us, yes, that ideal, that, that, the, of course we can do it.

We can accomplish that. Uh, I think both of us do that. I'm not just saying you, I think we both have this sense of we can do more than we actually can. Uh, so we'll claim that baggage together. Okay. Yes. We're very, we're, we're achiever oriented. So we launched like the new episode of the new season of our podcast.

I did like three episodes and then it was like quiet for about three months. We did one episode while I was with you for one episode, you did a couple other ones, and then there was just nothing, just crickets because why? We were a little more limited than we thought. All right. So we could, so we'll, I'll, I'll do the other baggage claim another time then.

So, yes. But you're wearing the, you're wearing the example. I think you need to just do it now. What's the example? What do you mean? The other hat. Wasn't that what you were going to talk about? Uh, yes, but I'll talk about it another time. Oh, see, now you just have to, that's a tease. We'll have to have another one.

We'll have another episode next week. So risky play, fun, having a theology of fun, um, and becoming more deeply attached to God. They all kind of go together. Uh, let your kids play, uh, unstructured. The last little tidbit is, um, is that your kids are probably safer with unstructured play. If you give them a hammer, some nails, and some random wood, uh, they might.

You know, swing the hammer and hit their thumb, but you know, they'll only do that once they'll learn not to do that. Uh, the studies have shown that you're more likely to get like bad concussions and injuries doing organized sports or other kind of like really organized activities. Uh, so, you know, your kids are probably safer if you just kind of let them play.

Uh, you know, keep an eye on them, give them the courage, give them the resources, build that. That, uh, that confidence within them, then it'll come back because they'll really value that you gave them independence. And so that'll actually come back to benefit you as parents as well. Was there something else you were gonna say?

Or was that the same thing I wanted to say? So I, uh, in the show notes, there will be, uh, links to Jonathan Knight's book, to one of the research articles. That, uh, I was referring to. So if you want to look at that research, that'll be in the show notes, please like, and subscribe, and please share, uh, this podcast wherever you, uh, listen to it and find it.

And if you can, for only 8 a month, if you could subscribe, uh, to help kind of fund and pay forward, um, Kind of some of the technology expenses for running this podcast because we do this as a passion project. So, uh, thank you all. Any last thoughts, blessings, encouragements. We'll see you again real soon.

All right. 

Oh