Bare Knuckle Recovery
Bare Knuckle Recovery
Substance Abuse & the Family Members They Leave Behind
In this difficult but important episode, we explore the often-unseen impact of substance abuse – the toll it takes on families who lose loved ones to addiction.
Nate & Tommy are joined by two special guests, Theresa Juillerat and Alice Jordan, who have both experienced the devastating loss of a child to substance abuse.
They'll share their powerful stories of grief, resilience, and the challenges of navigating a world without their child. We'll discuss the unique struggles faced by families, how to find support, and ways to honor the memory of a loved one lost to addiction.
This episode is for anyone who has been affected by substance abuse, or who simply wants to understand the impact it has beyond the individual. Join us for a conversation that's both heartbreaking and hopeful, as we explore the power of love and loss in the face of addiction.
https://www.bareknucklerecovery.com/
Welcome in everybody to the Bare Knuckle Recovery Podcast. As always, I'm Tommy Streeter, this is Nate Mollering and, as you guys can see, we've got two guests with us today. We've got Alice Jordan, who is the mom of an addict, and then we've got Teresa Julie Ratt, who anyone who has been following us for the last three years you've definitely heard us mention Teresa's name, I don't know countless times, so we'll talk about that here in a little bit. Nate, I'm kind of going to let you take over, since this one was your idea. You invited the guests for this one, so what are we going to be talking about today?
Speaker 2:We're going to talk about a couple of things, but really I think the focus for today is going to be on really it's going to be on the families of people kind of left behind, whether they've lost their loved one to substance use or whether their person's still out struggling with substance use. You know, my friend Alice and I were having a conversation the other day and it came up that you know she has taken on the responsibility of raising her three of her grandchildren and you know, teresa and I went to Washington together back in 2022. It was September 2022. And there was a woman who spoke at the roundtable we were at with Congress. And there was a woman who spoke at the roundtable we were at with Congress. She said that you're going to face a youth and elder crisis like you've never seen before.
Speaker 2:There's a whole generation missing in the middle Tommy and I's generation we just talked about, both of us in our early 30s but the generation of people that are kind of in their early 40ies, twenties and even some of the teens right, where that group has either been incarcerated, they're out on the street or they've passed away. And she said I am 63 years old and I'm taking care of my four-year-old granddaughter. She said I am tired. She said I love her to death. She said but in 10 years I'm going to be 73 and she's going to be 14. Who's going to take care of me and who's going to take care of her? And I just sat there and I said that's a that's a good question.
Speaker 2:You know, we talk all the time about the people that are left behind, and the and and the time about the people that are left behind and even the people that are lost, but I think we often. What does that really mean, though? What are the details associated with that? What does that look like? And most people don't even begin to understand or can't even visualize that, unless we come out and we talk about it and we paint a very real picture, through our own life experiences, of what that looks like. Right, and we paint a very real picture, through our own life experiences, of what that looks like Right. So one of the things, too, we're going to do real quickly is have Teresa kind of give us a little background on herself, and then Alice will have you give a background on yourself, but, teresa, since you're bare knuckle recovery famous, please share a little bit about yourself, of course, java, your organization, and then also how we met Sure bit about yourself, of course, java, your organization, and then also how we met Sure.
Speaker 3:So I started my advocacy journey back in 2018, when we started supporting families through Java, which stands for Justice, accountability and Victim Advocacy. We were supporting families of homicide victims and at that time, I was passionate about doing that, just because I just love loving on people and helping any way that I can. But I always, at that time, felt very unequipped to talk to these parents who have lost children, because I was still able to go home to my kids at night. So supporting them it went a long way, because when you lose a child, you just want to be heard. You don't really want advice, so to speak. You just want somebody to listen to you and have your feelings validated.
Speaker 3:So, fast forward to May 12th of 2020, when I got the call and it was my son, the tables immediately turned and it was at the time I didn't know when I responded to the call. I'm the one that found my son unresponsive. I'm the one that called 911. I'm the one that administered CPR and during that time, I remember thinking what happened, and that's the first thing people want to know what happened? I didn't know. I thought my son had experienced some sort of medical emergency or something. Drugs was probably the farthest from my mind. Now I know we'll talk about hindsight later, but at the time my son had been battling some legal issues and I knew that he had endured a lot of trauma. Just in his own circle of friends he had self-medicated. His drug of choice at the time was marijuana, and so that was the extent of what I knew, and so when this happened I didn't want to label him because, again, not knowing. And then I waited for the toxicology to come back, and it was at that time that I read that it was attributed to fentanyl and that he had over 10 times the lethal dose of fentanyl in his system. And I learned that from the coroner. Because I can't, those reports are non-human readable. Sometimes you don't know what you're looking at. So I'm staring at this piece of paper and again I don't know what fentanyl is. And so I started to research and just thought you know, if this is a drug that's out here in our streets, why hasn't it hit my radar? Why have I never heard about it? And it's killing people Like why isn't this on the news? Why isn't this a bulletin? And at the time that was at the brink of COVID.
Speaker 3:But with this taking lives the way it was, and again I thought I was alone. I didn't know that this was a epidemic. But I almost, as a parent, expected a COVID-like response, a notification, a bulletin across the TV screen that just is making people aware that this is risky, this is dangerous. So just out of desperation I was calling and trying to meet with anybody, talk to anybody that would talk to me. And that's when a friend of mine pointed me to you two and I'll never forget that first sit down that we had. I met with you both and you guys were both there to answer every question that I had. You made me feel like there were others like me out there and I learned that you guys were talking about it and just never hit my radar.
Speaker 3:And I tell people now that even then, in that sit down with you guys, I would have never labeled my son an addict. Even in that moment, knowing fentanyl is his cause of death, I still would have said no because in my mind I was on that stigma bandwagon. I was, you know. No, addiction is bad and no, not my son. My son was a good kid, like he did. He, yes, he made bad choices, but he would have never done anything beyond marijuana. You know he would have never. And so, again, just being uneducated at the time.
Speaker 3:I tell people now that my story has changed slightly, because I do. My son had addiction-like tendencies and was trying to self-medicate, trying to cope, trying to take the pain away by any means necessary. And if that came in the form of a pill that's going to take him away from the trauma that he was experiencing and the mental health, that just went unnoticed because then I didn't know the signs on what he needed. So all that kind of factored into me even picking up the phone and contacting you guys and we had a very good informative. It was very informative to me and my takeaway.
Speaker 3:One of the takeaways was you know, this was not a parental failure, because when you lose a child or when your child makes bad choices, you instantly blame yourself and that's natural. You know, as a parent, you think where did I go wrong? What could I have done differently? What could I have said that would have made him choose differently? And just understanding now that everyone is given free will and that you know I cannot hold that burden of any choice that my son made. There are things I can do, which is we can probably get into that as part of our discussion, but just getting out in the community and making others aware that you are not alone.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, and I think you know what you've shared with us will lead into our larger discussion too, about the. You know you talk about epidemic and, just like with COVID, you know where there were a lot of people that got sick and passed away. There's a lot of things that, after the fact, the shockwave you have to deal with right, and that's kind of what we're going to be talking about today, is the shockwave of addiction. You know whether it's cause. You know we get our loved ones stolen from us. Sometimes they pass away, but sometimes they're stolen from us while they're still alive, you know, um. So with that, you know, alice, do you want to share a little bit about yourself a?
Speaker 4:little bit about your story. Um, uh, there's so much. It's been for 15 years of hell. Um, my son was a very, very, very good soccer player. Um, as a matter of fact, his sophomore year at high school, he was offered a full ride from my alma mater to play soccer. The kid could make a goal from a corner kick. I was, you know. Um, my husband at the time was not Ross's father, but he was the one who raised him.
Speaker 4:You know, um, ross, his junior year or so, um tore his ACL and he was going to the Dr Pediatrics Associates. You know, when he you turn 18, you know the kids could go to the doctors by themselves, drive them there themselves. So, knowing that Ross, you know, had tore his ACL and I just, you know, I just didn't think. You know, hindsight is 20-20. You know, I just didn't think what he was doing in regards to continuing his medication or whatnot. I thought he was going to physical therapy.
Speaker 4:You know, a person who only gets paid once a month. I didn't go through my mail every day, you know, I just do it once a month. You get those EOBs. I mean, there was an extensive amount and again, you know, I blame myself for a lot of it and again I blame myself for a lot of it. But I also was noticing when I looked at those EO Beasles explanation of benefits, ross was going to this doctor a lot and I was like how could I not have caught that? So the first time I ever gave Ross Narcan at the time his nine-year-old daughter found him. There's nothing in this world that prepares you as a parent to find your child blue. So I gave him the Narcan. Thank God Kevin Hunter gave me that Narcan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Kevin Hunter.
Speaker 4:So go to Lutheran Hospital and you know, I don't know what's going on, but the nurses do, you know, and they I don't know, but they made me feel so less of you know. I didn't know what was going on. Ross knew why he was in there. I didn't know what was going on. You know I thought he had an adverse, you know, reaction to I don't know, I can't tell you. My focus really was dealing with Audrina, who thought her dad died, you know. So I remember looking at Ross, just like it was yesterday, and I said to him Ross, mijo, how did we get here? He says, mom, when they shut down the doctors, it was easier for me to get heroin on the street than it was a pill. And I remember sitting back in my chair thinking, oh my God, I was part of that system.
Speaker 4:Long story short, ross has gone, got into school. He was doing so well. He's a great dad, nate. He's a great dad. He loves his girls. He has five girls. He was going to school. He would relapse. I never would want to believe it because I believed everything.
Speaker 2:He said to me you want to believe that, you wanted to believe everything for the good right, and you were a family of faith, you know.
Speaker 4:And so ross, you know, ended up getting married to another addict. They ended up having two children. One's just been today, she's three months old, but she was born addicted and so over the years, ross has continued to use. Things I've learned in attending support groups of moms of kids who are addicts is that you're never to turn your back on them, because everybody else has Right, and I feel I'm fairly educated. You know what's the difference between an enabler and supporting your kid.
Speaker 2:Right, right.
Speaker 4:So now being at an age of 58 years old, you know, just three months ago I just sat down with a financial advisor and was planning on retiring in a couple of years.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:That ain't happening. That is not happening and it's like I feel very upset with him right now because he was just recently arrested for selling fentanyl, a level two felony, and I just can't even put my mind around that, and so much so that I have blocked the jail calls because my energies and the space I have left in my brain and my mentality, I have to focus on these girls mentality, I have to focus on these girls. And so you know I wanted again, when I reached out to Nate that you know I wanted to get him in rehab. You know I've. You know I have little 401k left because of all. You know, when you pay 10 grand for a 60 day stay and they stay sick days, they don't give your money back, and so many times I do feel alone.
Speaker 4:But because of my field, I know that I have a very powerful platform, and my powerful platform is this is that I speak my truth. What's going on with my kids is my life today and I want to break that vicious cycle and letting him sit there and face his consequences because mom can't fix this one and Ross, I've also understood and I've kind of always made excuses is that Ross's dad has always denied him and he has a brother that is less than two weeks younger than him and they look exactly alike and he lives with his father and that's always been a thing for Ross. And again, not that I'm making excuses, but I also know that mental health and trauma impacts addicts. It's real.
Speaker 4:And and and, and you know, and for anybody that doesn't, I'll fight you to the very end because of they all are connected and they're all intertwined. And you know, as I said to you all earlier, you know I'm in the field of saving everybody else's kid and it's, you know, when I was always out there helping my own community, sometimes I felt my community was failing me because there's no, there's, there was no affordable services back then, you know, or local, or you had to wait, or you know, you know just all kinds of things. I think also that the way the system is now is that it's broken. I mean shocker, you know, because we as families need to be part of that continuity of care.
Speaker 4:And I'm sorry, f HIPAA, f privacy, because it's invading in my privacy and I'm having to put everything else on the side. And I'll do everything for my grandchildren, I'll do anything for my I'll get my life for my grandchildren, but in order for us, because Ross is getting out sometime, all addicts are getting out sometime and we need, we can't set them up to fail right. I mean, I'll know, you know, when Ross got out of prison the first time, he couldn't even get, get out of the apartment because he had a felony.
Speaker 2:Right you know I mean these transitional houses.
Speaker 4:I mean, I mean, and it's not in a section that further stigmatizes a further, you know, knocks a nail in that coffin that they can never run away from that. You know that bad choice that they made. And I'm not making excuses for what Ross did. I'm not because he had a village. Ross had a village.
Speaker 4:He was more fortunate than a lot of people and a lot of people even told him over and over and over again Ross, you're lucky, you still have people that call you or you can call, or they accept your call or they send you money or they send you a letter. You still have those and it's not one person, it's your family, right, and he still never saw that and it's just. You know. Now I feel that the breakdown in services right now is for the people who are stepping in, for these kids, because we all know, it's not a secret, we don't have enough foster families as it is Right, 100% yeah, and even to find a foster family that will take a three-month-old that was born addicted to heroin, fentanyl and methadone and morphine, right, because of stigma.
Speaker 2:Exactly Right and morphine Right Because of stigma.
Speaker 4:Exactly Right. So, you know, I just you know, I want all your listeners and your viewers to know that you're not alone if you're in my situation. You know it's not a club we ever wanted to be in. No, you know, definitely don't want the T-shirt or the sweatshirt, but it is what it is and I think that changes need to be made in the system so that it's not. You know, it's, it's not a vicious cycle because, also, I have to worry about the trauma of the girls. Now, right, I could no longer lie to the 15 year old. No, you know, I just can't, I can't lie to her anymore about it. No, you know, and uh, and it's costly to have somebody in prison, it's costly to have him in jail, isn't?
Speaker 2:it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know it is, it's costly, but you know, ross made his bed and now his mom is making him finally live in it.
Speaker 2:And I think we really want families to realize that. You know, both of you are so involved in the community. You know that it can happen to anybody. It can happen to anybody, right, you know? I mean, I think that I think a lot of people fall into that category where they just feel so much shame and guilt, you know, but it's, it's not your fault as a parent, and you know, and there are people out there that are going through the same struggle and I think it's important those people connect with each other too.
Speaker 4:Well, I also I think it's important those people connect with each other too Well, I also I think I think that as a society we need to change the language, because we all know language is very critical when it comes to mental health. In the field of addiction, you know, we need to start first of all accepting mental health like any other socially accepted illness, but it's a disease. It is a disease. I mean, look how hard it is for people to stop smoking cigarettes. You know what I mean. And that's legal, you know so. It's just sometimes the ignorance, the level of ignorance, the level of insensitivity as well, I mean, further perpetuates that stigma, that shame, that loneliness, right, that also opens the doors to other things as well. Sure For that particular caregiver to self-start, self-medicating, unhealthily. Yes, you know, I mean, it's a terrible cycle.
Speaker 3:And you would never call someone having to undergo cancer treatment as selfish.
Speaker 2:Right, no, right, no, I mean no one, no one chooses to be an addict. You know, like no one, especially the, you know there's people that are predisposed to addiction. You know, whether their brain is not wired properly, whatever it is right, whether it's trauma, whether it's genetic or whether it's their environment, right. But there are things that that open us up. I, you know. I know the first time I took a substance, right. But there are things that that open us up. I, you know. I know the first time I took a substance it did something to me that it doesn't do to most people, right, like, I almost like to describe it to people. And some people get offended when I say this cause. You know they don't want to be associated with addicts, but it's like type one, type two, diabetes. I believe there's type one addicts, there's type two, meaning there's people who are born predisposed, but also I always caution people with the type two. You can party so much that you beat the crap out of that part of your brain that feels pleasure, right, and and and pain that it can. It can mess it up to where it can't reach homeostasis again anymore, right, right. But you know, I think it's important that we, we do recognize it. It's a disease that centers in in in the brain, right and it and it really does take over people's lives and it's that fight or flight people that are craving and that do these things. Literally, they, they feel like they're going to die if they don't get it. Your brain is screaming we need this to survive. It really, it literally reorders the hierarchy of need in your mind, whereas, like you might have you know, food, sleep, shelter, sex, whatever else it wipes the whiteboard and it rates heroin, heroin, heroin, heroin. That's why you see people who look like they haven't eaten for days. Cause they probably haven't because they have right, cause when you get 20 bucks, you're not like, well, let me go get $5 for the food. You're like I'm, if I can get $15 for the heroin versus 20, I'm going to do $20. I'll figure out the food later, you know. And it and it does the same thing to people when they're parents of children, right? People say, oh, you're a bad parent. Well, again, everything inside of them is screaming that we have to get this substance which we found, which is basically our solution to life.
Speaker 2:I always tell people the first time I tried an opiate, I had a semi-spiritual experience. People probably think well, how is that possible? I felt like there was something missing my entire life. When I took an opiate For the first time, I felt this is how everybody else feels and this is how I should feel every single day for the rest of my life, no matter what it takes, no matter what happened to me. It was always all I just have to get some opiates so I can think and figure out a plan. I could have just got over it, out of jail for possession or getting caught in a sting operation at a drug house. I got to get high so I can figure out what to do next. And that goes against all rationale of human beings, right? So that's why I think it's so hard for people on the outside looking in to understand when you really don't understand it. And if you educate yourself, you do start to learn about the brain, science and everything behind it and how our society predisposes people to be susceptible to addictive behavior. You could talk a lot about.
Speaker 2:We have a dopamine economy, meaning that you're sold something every five seconds you turn on the TV. If you get a Toyota, your family's going to all go on vacation together. Everyone's going to be happy and they're going to have a great time. You're going to get to sing along like they were when they were kids. Then you can go through McDonald's and your kids get a Happy Meal and they're going to have a great time, right. And then you go home and you buy a Samsung and you can watch Netflix. And you buy a Samsung, the whole family is going to watch movies just like they used to, right? And it's this next thing. This next thing, it's these hits of dopamine in our brain. So that way, when we get that drug, your brain's already wired that way, right? And we start kids from a young age on that stuff. So when they get it, they're not prepared. They're not prepared.
Speaker 3:Right. Right In terms of lack of services. I mean, we know the jail is not equipped to offer treatment to those who become incarcerated, find themselves incarcerated, whether it's due to a drug charge or not. We've got those that are getting jailed, that are users, and so we know that behind bars there is a lack of treatment and just things that would help coach them and rehabilitate them mentally and physically, just to help them, wean them off of the drugs and just educate them on what they're battling.
Speaker 3:And because of that I feel maybe if something like that was offered in the jail, my son, my son, had a short incarceration stint. It was three months and he, I believe, was experimenting with these drugs prior to his incarceration. So when he was released, again unbeknownst to me, he was battling an addiction of some sort. So when he was released, tolerance again, hindsight I know now tolerance probably played a factor in his death because within 46 hours of his release is when I found him unresponsive and which led to his death. So again, you know things like Narcan I didn't know what that was at the time, things that he was battling. Maybe I could have helped. But you know I won't take that whole responsibility on my own shoulders because he was in their house for three months in the jail, and so the lack of just education and treatment in general materials, curriculum of some sort, just reading materials, just reading materials, something that supports or encourages rehabilitation.
Speaker 4:You know, it just makes me so mad that those things are not available. I realize they've done a crime, they've committed a crime. I get that, I understand that. But you know what? Let's help them be a better person, because they're going to be back into society, you know. So let's not make them have that sense that they're not worthy or that they're never going to be given a chance. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but darn it, it just makes me so mad that there's no resources that is later than 2005 that they can get their hands on other than the Bible.
Speaker 3:And we know, know, they're all issued tablets.
Speaker 4:So if there's, how much it is to use the tablets that who's got to pay for it? Right, right you know, family, yeah.
Speaker 1:When it really goes to show something that you were talking about earlier, alice, which is you know. So Chris was sober for three months while he was in jail. The drugs weren't the problem. If the drugs were the problem, when he got out he wouldn't have started using drugs again.
Speaker 4:You were talking about how mental health and addiction go hand in hand and that is something that we talk about all the time, but that's a perfect example of that.
Speaker 1:You're right, when he was in there and I don't think J-CAP was part of.
Speaker 3:Allen.
Speaker 1:County Jail at the time it is now it. We're definitely big fans of J-CAP. We love that program, but it's still. It's such a small program. It's great that they have it. If they could expand it, that would be incredible.
Speaker 4:But see, the thing is, why doesn't our community want to expand it? Look how much it's costing us to incarcerate them. You know we can't even decide. You know which shovel they're going to use for the new jail. You know who's going to. You know who's going to get all that glory for that. You know, let's start. Let's let's put in money on the on the beginning and not put it in on the on the on the outset, so we don't have to fight about how many bonds we're going to be taken out for the jail. You know, I mean, I understand jail is not the Ritz Carlton. I get that and I don't think that they should. You know they should have the ability to have all the great things. I'm not saying that. But let's help them be become a better person, because they're going to be your neighbor, right, they're going to be your Uber driver. They're going to be. You know, they're going to be in our communities. They're going to be your neighbor.
Speaker 2:We need them in our community. We can't afford to throw them away, and the thing is, I just don't understand it.
Speaker 4:It's not rocket science.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:You know, ray Charles could see the benefits of all this and he's blind. Yeah, you know. And I just don't understand J-CAP. I don't understand why the previous administration did not want J-CAP in our program when there was so many research that it was in our own state that showed how beneficial it was. And the thing is it wasn't academia us at academia saying that this program worked. These the results were all peer reported, meaning that it came from the people who received the services. They said it from their own mouth. If it wouldn't have been for them, they'd be using again or they would have been out robbing, you know, or thieving, or raping, or whatever, whatever. If it wasn't for this program, yeah, or whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1:If it wasn't for this program. Yeah, and I mean. We see on a daily basis the positive impact.
Speaker 4:Right, exactly Just J-Cap alone has in our community. Right, exactly.
Speaker 1:I see it in Kosciuszko County.
Speaker 4:Yes, I mean, look what I mean. Nate Tommy, aisha Diss, they give me hope. Yep, you know they give me hope. And why is? Because you know, because you benefited from good programs. And Aisha, she speaks her truth too. She says that she was incarcerated, she was this, she was that and people never thought she would be. She never thought she would be.
Speaker 3:And look at her now.
Speaker 2:She has her own 501c3.
Speaker 4:Helping people. You know, yes, and in the jail. And again, it's not the Hilton. I understand that and they have to pay for what they've done, but the entire family shouldn't have to pay.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, you've got a captive audience, I mean literally, while they're in jail. So why don't we do something else? It's supposed to be the Department of Corrections. Why aren't we correcting? Right, we have to correct the underlying behavior and the underlying reasons why they behave that way.
Speaker 1:You know if you could take someone, you know if you have them for a year, it's the perfect opportunity for them, because while they're not in jail they might not ask for that help, but while they're sitting there not doing anything else, if it's presented and offered to them, or even if you say, oh, I don't want to do it and you're like well, you're going to do it, You're here, this is why you're here, You're going to do it.
Speaker 2:You know, some people say, oh well, people only do it if they want to. I don't believe that. I believe that like I know so many people that were put on drug court and I know you have to voluntarily go to drug court, but that doesn't mean they wanted to do it, they didn't want to get a felony, uh, but I know people that were also court ordered to go to treatment and the up one day.
Speaker 2:and they're like you know what? I'm not dope sick today. I laughed today. Huh, you know, maybe there's something to this sobriety recovery thing. Maybe I'll hang around for a little bit and see what it's about. And then eventually they start getting stuff back and they're like you know what? I don't want to go pick up again. I want to be in recovery. I didn't know I wanted it, but it's something that I have now and I want to keep it, you know. So you have them in there. Let's do as much as we can to rehabilitate let's you know what I mean Like let's. If they don't know how to read, let's teach them how to read. If they don't know how to write, let's teach them how to write If they don't know how to stay sober.
Speaker 2:Let's teach them how to stay sober, let's. We could do more and more. And it's like you said, it costs so much. The recidivism costs even more, right. Like you know, it costs a lot to house and feed someone and then, on top of that, they're going to come back because recidivism rate is super high. I mean, I don't know this off the top of my head, but I've heard it's like 80, 70%, something high, right?
Speaker 2:So, if we can get them back out and, as I stated before, these are people we need. So, when you're a criminal, you don't stop being a father. You don't stop being a mother, you don't stop being a potential employee, a potential volunteer, right? You don't stop being someone's neighbor who used to take their trash cans down because they're elderly and they can't do it themselves. We need those people back and, like you've said, people like Asha and other people you mentioned I mean some of the people that have been rehabilitated, the people that have been through crap are some of the best people you'll ever meet Absolutely Some of the most empathetic and people that are the most passionate and able to help and speak from life experience and they can help others that are going through it.
Speaker 2:But also the hope is we engage in things like what you alluded to earlier prevention. I don't think we do enough prevention. No Right, we got to help people.
Speaker 4:It's always downstream, it's downstream.
Speaker 2:Right, somebody said you know you keep pulling people out of the river. Let's go upstream and find out why they keep falling in Right. Right, you know, and I can't take credit for that, I read it on Facebook or something, but you know it's true, right, right.
Speaker 4:And also, I think, while they captive audience, they need to prepare them when they go out and back into the community. They need to prepare when they have, when every application for housing gets denied, you know that they get that. No, no, no.
Speaker 2:And then they get so upset and then they go to back to their unhealthy coping system.
Speaker 4:Why not just go back?
Speaker 2:and use.
Speaker 4:At least I was, you know, at least I was high and I could deal with life versus you know them, just sitting there and just playing cards all day, Right, you know?
Speaker 1:that is definitely. One of the flaws with J-CAP is that it stops when they complete the program and they either go home or go to community corrections, depending on their case. But there's another program in Indiana called IRAX. I'm not sure if you're familiar with IRAX.
Speaker 4:I just heard about that not too long ago.
Speaker 1:It's similar to JCAP, but it's offered to everybody in the jail and so they can sign up for it. They meet with a case manager while they're there, but it actually follows them when they leave the jail. They continue to meet with that case manager to work on all of that other stuff. Continuity of care.
Speaker 4:Going back to continuity of care, and I think also is that we need to stop putting a band-aid on addicts. It's almost, it's almost to a point of holistic care, you know, because a lot of their mental and physical needs have been, you know, have not been met over the years. You know, not only versus training, you know them, you know getting the what they need so that they can support their family. They, they can, you know, get back into society, be contributing members of society, be taxpayers.
Speaker 2:Right, right Right.
Speaker 4:I mean, come on, I just again, it's not rocket science and I, if I had time, I run for office and change the whole damn system honestly, because you know I'm so tired of our, of our make them from afar and they're not making them from the, from the shoes of the people who are walking in it, or at least not having us at the table.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I've I you know not to get political. I've always been a proponent. I was just about to say.
Speaker 1:Nate's always been a huge proponent of local I'm a proponent of grassroots local organizations.
Speaker 2:I I I get very frustrated when you know the bureaucracy. It's so clunky and so people talk about oh, washington, so like let's Pew passed a bill in Washington DC, right for recovery. So it works for somebody in Fort Wayne, indiana. It doesn't work for somebody in Spokane, washington. It works for somebody in Spokane, washington. It doesn't work for somebody in Austin, texas. It doesn't work for somebody in Arkansas, it doesn't work for somebody in.
Speaker 2:You need people that are on the ground and even I think our reps at the House level would even admit and, of course, at the Senate level right, the districts were created so you had direct representation in Washington. Us here in Allen County could put together a pretty good coalition of people who could say, hey, here's what our demographic looks like, here's the issues we're facing and here's how we could probably tackle it and track it directly. Not that the numbers have to go from this place to this place, to this place to this place, and by the time they get to there, by the time you get something back to Washington state house, it's probably a year old. You're making, you're not making real time decisions and by the time you get the funding through, and we saw it with the opioid epidemic by the time you get the funding through, when the laws passed, the drugs have changed, the problems change, the dynamics have shifted. It's all we're playing from behind, I think is a lot of it, right, that's reactive versus proactive.
Speaker 2:And that's why I love grassroots local organizations because they're on the ground, they see things happening real time.
Speaker 4:People like Asha, people like Teresa, because what works in Allen County may not work in Marion County or even DeKalb.
Speaker 2:County which is right next to us. I mean, they're a totally different county.
Speaker 4:I teach at Purdue and I take my law and ethics class at Judge Davis' courtroom when she was behind the bench, and I still take them to Judge Hans yeah, that you know. Mental health court, restoration court I mean that's the biggest secret in our community. Restoration court, I mean that's the biggest secret in our community. And to see, first of all, you know, every person who goes up to that microphone first of all is greeted with respect and they ask them.
Speaker 2:How are?
Speaker 4:you today. You know, and you know they're shocked by how they're. You know they're in a courtroom. They're scared as all get out. You know they're one step away from being incarcerated, but somebody's given them a chance.
Speaker 4:And even though they made a mistake and even though that their their piss tests came back negative I mean, came back positive You're not sitting there and slapping them on their hand. They're saying that you know, we know you're human and you know that life throws you curveballs. We just have not given you enough of tools so that when life throws you challenges that you don't turn back to using, you'll turn back to doing something more positive. I mean I sat there and I called you Nate. I mean I sat there and I just cried because it was like why wasn't my son given this opportunity? Why isn't every addict given this opportunity? And I'm not saying that every addict deserves a second, third and fourth chance, because some people just don't want to change. I mean I'm a true believer that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it. So I have learned the hard way and I'm sure a lot of your viewers too, is that I always thought that Ross hit rock bottom. He has yet to hit rock bottom.
Speaker 2:There's always a trap door. You can always go lower right?
Speaker 1:Yep, absolutely. That is something that we talk about all the time.
Speaker 2:Specific to the trauma. That is kind of you know it's, I mean. But someone told me once and his name is white mullet X is very wise man. I don't know if you guys know white mullet X. He's been involved drug court for years and uh, he said, if you don't deal with your pain, just transfer it to everybody else.
Speaker 2:You know, at one point in my life I was like a sprinkler of pain, just spraying everything that was around me, people that were closest to me, and, uh, cause trauma for a lot of people, especially specifically my parents and my, my sisters, okay, especially my younger sister. I try I don't like to talk about my younger sister, cause I get very emotional. Tommy seen me cry really hard a couple of times talking about her. Um, she's doing fine now. She's actually a master's in social work and she's helping people in Northwestern hospital today. Um, so something positive came out of all my crap. But, um, you know, they went through a lot of things they didn't ask for, you know, and one of the things we were talking about, they found me overdosed multiple times. You know she was a high schooler. She had to hold my head up in the back of, of, of, of of my dad's car one time, while I was blue, while she's trying to help me breathe, Um, and we had to pull over so the paramedics could, could pull me out and Narcan me, um, but she was watching me die in her arms.
Speaker 2:A young, a young girl, probably high school age, and, um, you know just also what my mother went through.
Speaker 2:My father, uh, just always, always expecting that call.
Speaker 2:You know, my mother would tell me that when I was home she wouldn't sleep at night more than an hour, cause she'd wake up every night and she'd come to my room and she'd put her hand on my back to make sure I was still breathing, and then she'd go back to bed for a little bit and she'd wake up in a panic and come into my room and and and you know just what that was like for her, and then also both of you, what you experienced, as you know, family members and and then how you've dealt with that sense.
Speaker 2:You know, because there's a lot of people out there that are traumatized, and we were talking about too that the caregivers, mothers in particular, right, have a special bond with their children, and you experience the trauma and you keep going because you got other kids and you got grandkids and you have to be the strong one. But it's okay not to be the strong one. It's okay to say I have trauma and deal with it. So if you guys both want to speak on that, I mean we'd be grateful to hear that.
Speaker 4:You know, sitting here next to you, I just feel really guilty sometimes, because there's many times that I wish Ross died.
Speaker 3:Well, and I've also talked to other parents who have experienced the life of addiction Like my. My son's struggle was a few short months. My son's struggle was a few short months, so I didn't have, and I found myself saying God took him from me. But I look at that as a blessing because I couldn't survive the years and years and years of the trauma with my son alive but not being not living.
Speaker 1:I guess Nate and I were just talking about that last week. So don't feel, don't feel that.
Speaker 3:Because my heart goes out to you because of your current situation. You know your son is very much alive and mine is not, but it doesn't mean that our trauma isn't equally as traumatic. You know it's terrible.
Speaker 4:It is. I mean, when you said that about your mom, I remember many times going to Ross and just you know, are you breathing? You know, and I do, I feel so. You know, as a suicide prevention specialist for the state, you know I'm on many suicide scenes, you know, and you know why couldn't that be him? You know. So at least I could have put closure, you know, at least his daughters could put closure. They could move on and not have to go through life being ashamed of their dad.
Speaker 4:I felt really bad for my granddaughter, audrina, a couple weeks ago when somebody asked her what her dad does and she didn't even answer. And I said to her later I said, mama, why didn't you tell them what she goes? Mama, what would I tell them? He's a drug user, he's a drug pusher. So you know, it's just. I don't know, it's just.
Speaker 4:I'm just so mad at him. I'm just so mad at him. I'm just so mad at him because I, he had the. He had a great life. You know too much of a great life honestly. I mean I, he had the. He had a great life. You know too much of a great life honestly. I mean he was the Amelia Marcos of skateboards. You know he had more skateboards than anybody, than anybody who even goes to skateboard park. You know, I always felt that I had to, you know, make up for his dad not being there for him. You know. You know he was a great student. He always wanted to be an architect. He always wanted to build the fastest and growing fastest, the fastest roller coaster at cedar point, because we always went there for family vacations year after year and he, oh, and I got him those connect things and he would make those every time. And you know, and it's just, it's just to me, I just, I'm just so mad at him right now. I'm just so, so mad at him.
Speaker 3:I'm more mad at the drug, because in all the families that I've met in this, it's almost been four years since I met with you guys the first time and all these kids were amazing. All these kids have bright futures and goals and plans and kids that they leave behind, and you know I've not met a mom yet that has said my child, you know, deserve this, or you know we all have great things to say about our kids and in terms of the trauma, you know that this is for me as as just experiencing the loss of a child, the trauma is very similar to probably what your parents have felt, because when I got that call every call thereafter I associate it with something bad has happened.
Speaker 2:I didn't even think of that, wow.
Speaker 3:Even when I pick up the phone, I have to listen to the background noise of that call because, depending like, if I hear and there's been people that are laughing, but to me it sounds like crying I'm instantly especially when it's my daughter or when it's one of my grandkids I'm ready to put my shoes on and have my. I'm out the door.
Speaker 2:You're in fight or flight. I'm in fight or flight because something's wrong.
Speaker 3:Some. The only reason somebody is calling me is because they need me. And somebody has died and it's taken me again. We're almost four years into it and I still and my daughter has made the comment like, why can't you just answer the phone Like normal people? I'm like, I don't know as much as I want to, I'm afraid.
Speaker 2:Trauma changes us.
Speaker 3:It really does. It really does. And I'll never do CPR on a live person, ever again. Never expected I do it on my own child, but that it's taken that away from me. So it's more. You know I'm I'm a rescuer and as much as I would want to run to help, I would have to turn a blind eye because it would take me back into the throes of someone is losing a child, somebody is dying, and even again the guilt of did I do CPR right? Did I follow protocol? And so the trauma is never ending.
Speaker 3:The trauma is never ending and the work that I do with Java and in the community has its own special healing, which is why I'll continue to help these moms. I reached out to a mom today like let's do coffee, let's do lunch, let's do something, because I know not everyone can be in the front lines, not everyone can talk in front of the microphone, talk publicly about their pain, and others can, and there's been some people that I've met that I never thought I would be able to see them rise up. And when I witness a family go from the very worst to, I see them speaking, I see them outwardly helping other families. And that's the most beautiful thing to me, because I know I'm not going to take credit for any of that, but I played a small part in reminding them that you're still there's, you're still a fighter. So let's direct your anger, let's direct your pain on something that you can bring change, like you have a voice, and let's put action to that.
Speaker 1:Powerful. Yeah, and that's why Nate and I wanted to have both of you on the show, because you both are. Like you just said. Not everybody can or is willing to stand up and talk in front of a microphone and share their story and share their truth like you guys have done today. So we're both very grateful for what you're doing in the community. You guys are both making a huge positive impact. So, thank you again.
Speaker 4:We've got about a minute left or so. Thank you both for your leadership.
Speaker 1:Is there anything else that you guys want to add? Just before we end it?
Speaker 4:I would really like to get a feel if I'd like to start a support group for caregivers or family members who are left behind, to care for the grandkids.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 4:I think that we're more, our voices are heard when we're unified Absolutely and given a testimony, because what I experienced, what you experienced and what somebody else experienced is totally different.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And I'm very. I have a village, my parents, I have many siblings and cousins and stuff that are willing to step up, but I also know there are people who have nobody.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:And I think that we need to come together and be unified and we need to have our voices heard. Come together and be unified and we need to have our voices heard because if we're only going to get to the bottom of this epidemic, we can't just deal, we can't just meet the needs of the addict no we need to meet the needs of those who are left behind because, as you said earlier nate, it is a vicious cycle yeah, it is.
Speaker 4:And we need to. We need to have upstream initiatives so that we're not looking at things and approaching things downstream.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, I think we can continue here in a minute. If you want to catch the rest of the podcast, it'll be on Facebook and on all the other podcast platforms, but with that we're going to wrap up this episode for TV.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. Thank you, guys for tuning in. We'll see you next time, thank you.