The topic of a four-day work week comes with many different opinions. What works for one person or organization might not be the best plan for another. In this episode of The People Purpose Podcast, Chas and Julie discuss the pros and cons of a four-day work week in the U.S. Plus, find out where four-day work week studies have been successful.
The topic of a four-day work week comes with many different opinions. What works for one person or organization might not be the best plan for another. In this episode of The People Purpose Podcast, Chas and Julie discuss the pros and cons of a four-day work week in the U.S. Plus, find out where four-day work week studies have been successful.
Hey y'all, welcome to the people purpose podcast, the show that explores all of the ins and outs, challenges and opportunities, HR people, managers and all people face at work every day. I am one of your hosts, Chas fFields, and I'm with my I'm gonna say spicy today, my spicy co host, and you're gonna have to tell them why I said that. Because of the story you shared with me before this, my spicy co host,
Julie Develin:Julie Devlin. Hi, hi, Chas.
Chas Fields:Hey, Julie. Hey, instead of telling me something good today, can you just share why you're so fired up?
Julie Develin:I have no mice.
Chas Fields:What? Context? All right,
Julie Develin:so, Chas, we've done we did the travel episode, everybody knows that we travel all the time, you know, sometimes, let's just say that maybe I'm not the most organized person, I don't know. But with there's a lot of electronics, when we travel, there's a lot of wires, there's a lot of things that we have to make sure that we have. And one of those things I always make sure of is that I have my mouse because it's a pain to have to use the trackpad firstworldproblems on the on the computer, so I had to travel mouse chess, and I used that travel mouse and then I couldn't find it. So I was like, you know, great, I can't find the travel mouse. So now what I'm going to do is I'm going to take my actual mouse that I use at my desk here at home, and I'm going to travel with that. And then I don't know where it is. So I either left it in a hotel or or it fell out in an airport somewhere. But I am massless and I'm now having to you know again firstworldproblems utilize my my trackpad on my laptop using a mouse because I because here's another first world problem because Amazon can't deliver the mouse till tomorrow morning.
Chas Fields:Oh no. So so maybe the next episode we have a responsibility Episode
Julie Develin:Hi, something good. Something good is that I ordered two mouse's to mice's mice mouse nice. I don't know. Anyway, it's my honor to be right. Peter mouse things
Chas Fields:accessory so we'll see how long they last. That's your hard today. Words are hard. Yeah, so my my something good is I know we don't really don't share the day that recover. We're recording this on a Friday. You know what I mean? It's my last day that you know, my mom's here in town helping us out with you know, this recovery thing and last night we spent some time with my in laws. And you know, we had a family game night and I cooked dinner even on my knee scooter, which was awesome. You know, the fact that I was balance, doing a balancing act almost fell once and my doctor would not have been happy with that. But you know me, Jules, I love spending time with my family as much as I can. So it was just a really great night was really, really great night. So, but that's not why we're here. We are here to discuss what we're here to discuss. Jules, you want to kick us off at the business end of the day?
Julie Develin:Sure. We're here to discuss what we're here to discuss. So folks,
Chas Fields:you don't know what you don't know. You don't.
Julie Develin:As is going to just use cliche, cliche today.
Chas Fields:The future of work Jules.
Julie Develin:Quiet quitting Chas
Chas Fields:go on. Oh, yeah. What was the jar? The jar? We used to have a swear jar?
Julie Develin:Oh, yeah. The Oh, gosh. I don't know there was a million of. Yeah. So business out of the day. This is from Business Insider. So a new global study has found that the four day workweek was a resounding success in a pilot program. And it found that revenue increased over 8% over the six month trial period. For the 33 companies that participated in this four day work week thing. On the employee side. The people who responded to the survey said that they reported less burnout, less fatigue and an increase in physical health. So
Chas Fields:is this the new normal? There it was?
Julie Develin:Well, I'll tell you there are some folks that are trying to make it the new normal and I suppose that we should I suppose that we should let folks know that this is what we are going to be discussing on today's episode, the four day workweek,
Chas Fields:and where are we now with hybrid and RTO and return days? each other and all of that. Here's my first thoughts on this. Where do you draw the line? Okay, I've got I've got a, I don't know that I've formed my opinion on the four day workweek yet. And I'm clearly not resistant to it. I just I struggle with this one, right? So of course, you're going to experience less burnout, less fatigue, and increase in physical health. But when I see this, I think, okay, you get an extra day back, right? Like you get an extra day back, does this become a boundary setting issue? You know, are you are you is your company not providing you a culture where you can set healthy boundaries, and in the workplace to be able to feel less burnout, less fatigue and increase your physical health? Right? I look at all of those. And I think, okay, yeah, some organizations don't, right. I've been in those organizations. I've worked with some of those organizations. I've worked for an organization that was very much Go, go, go, go, go. But are we not giving employees or creating a space where employees can do this in a five day workweek? And I'm not saying five or four is the right or wrong answer. I'm just saying, can we not just be better in general to our people and not have to free up a full day? I don't know. Well, we can.
Julie Develin:And one of the things. This is, I don't know that there are right or wrong answers to this. There's there's not I think a lot of this has to do with individual situation, individual sentiment, and my thought about the four day workweek in general, is could it do more harm than good? Because people then feel like they had to get everything done within four days. So they can have that, that, that fifth day off, if you will. And then I guess if I think about this for myself, I this would never work for me. Like, I need five days. Sometimes I need six and seven, but right, you know, but that's me. But I also recognize that not everyone feels that way. And not everyone is in the same circumstance that I'm in. But you're gonna say something?
Chas Fields:Yeah, I was completely going to pivot before we get into the actual content of the episode here and kind of put you on the spot. Here, here's the deal. At what point? At what point do you draw the line? You know, at what point do you draw the line? So So like in nursing, it's very typical to do three twelves, right, and you do your three twelves and you have your 36 hours, and you're done and you get paid for your 40? Right? That's been a common practice and healthcare for a very, very long time. At what point do you draw the line to say, Okay, we're gonna go to a three day workweek, you know what I mean? You can work 15 hours a week or whatever, 14 hour days? I don't know. But yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, it is 12 hours, you know, 13 hour or whatever it is, right? Is 40 the standard? Is it going to be this? Is it going to be that? Do you have to supplement income because you're not willing to work? You know, 40 hour work weeks, and you only want three days? Right? So when do organizations draw the line? They say, No, we're going to everyone else is doing four days, but we're going to stick to five or we're going to stick to three. Right? How does that work?
Julie Develin:I don't know. I think it's very, it's very nuanced, per organization. It may be nuanced per department. You know, I think that I think that it sounds good. Right, it sounds good. But, but in reality, you know, in theory, it sounds Oh, well, everybody's gonna have three days off a week, and everybody's gonna come back and they're gonna be refreshed. And this that the other and, you know, it just may not be that that just may not be the case. And I think it would be difficult. Excuse me, Chas, I think it'd be difficult for a lot of organizations, especially those that have shift workers are actually now that I think about it, I just completely said that maybe wrong. Maybe it wouldn't be as difficult for shifts, maybe it would be more difficult for you know, the white collar the salary, because the shifts, you can get shifts covered and you can write,
Chas Fields:you can you can choose that shift, and companies let you do that. Yeah,
Julie Develin:right. Right. Right. So shift shift work, this may not work. Or it might again, depends on where what you're doing.
Chas Fields:My point is, you go back three years ago, where you were just trying to let people work remotely. Right, you know, and that was just, you know, we can't do that and COVID hit and it's like, okay, yeah, we can, right. And is this the next thing, and I'm not I'm not trying to take away from productivity. I think logistically, and we'll talk about this in a minute, but pre COVID You know, we keep inching along and inching along and inching along from the traditional way of doing things which, again, I'm all on board for challenging that You know, but this the way that the four day work week has been marketed was exactly what you just said. It's where you get an extra day back. And, Julie, I'm here to tell you, if someone made me work 10 hours, four days straight, I would lose my I would be worse off, per se, just
Julie Develin:right. And I'll go back to that saying that's you. Right, right. There are some people that may prefer that some people that are in different situations that may prefer that. But again, you know, it's, it's not it's, again, it's a nuanced thing. But you're right. I think it's about the marketing. I think that's really an interesting point. It's been marketed as the end all be all to employee burnout is Fashi. No, no, the end all be all to employee happiness. Oh, you're right, happy, hey, you can work four days at our company. But really what it means is on those four days, you're going to be dragging yourself and trying to get everything done and cramming things in and cramming meetings in, et cetera,
Chas Fields:can you can you manage the 10 hour days in the same way that you're managing five, five days, you know? But that's my point. So you go and create, and I guess this is where I'm questioning its success, right. So Massachusetts is trying to lead the charge the state of is trying to lead the charge here in the United States, right? The United Kingdom set the precedent precedent. And early on it was, quote, unquote, failing, but now it's, it's showing success based on the stat that the insider did. So clearly, there's some logistical things that had to be worked out. But I look at it holistically from the economics of it and what businesses currently require. And what I think will happen is if the majority of companies go to the four day workweek, and the companies who refuse are eventually going to be forced to go to that four day workweek,
Julie Develin:from a competitive perspective, but think about this, from a productivity perspective, let's say your company has a four day work week, and you work with lots of outside vendors and you know, lots of outside entities, you partner with other organizations, maybe they don't have a four day workweek, right? You know, what, what's that going to do to business? Is that going to affect productivity? What if there's some kind of emergency on that fourth, on that fifth day that people would be in the office or would not be in the office? You know, I again, there's a lot I think to consider, rather than just saying here work, work. 10 hour for 10 hour shifts?
Chas Fields:Yeah. Do you want it? Do you want four day workweek?
Julie Develin:No, not for myself.
Chas Fields:But for others? Sure. Absolutely. I think I think that's the other piece. Do you remember the Sunday creep? Do you remember the I think we did a survey the workforce Institute survey three and a half years ago, where people felt obligated to start working in responding on Sunday night before, you know their their Monday started, right? Yeah, this is a very similar concept. No, you're not dropping in complete day. But people still felt obligated to work the day before they go and start because they wanted to feel quote, unquote, caught up.
Julie Develin:Is it obligate? Is it obligated? Or is it getting a head start? That's the thing?
Chas Fields:Is it is it required? You know, there are companies out there that say, Hey, you know, I sent you an
email on Friday at 6:30pm. Why haven't you responded to me, and it's not in my Inbox by Monday at seven o'clock. So I just I struggle with the four day workweek. Julie, I struggle with it. And it's not that I'm a resistant to the change. But I just think that we're we're not addressing the workplace issue directly.
Julie Develin:I really don't Yes. And what and that workplace issue is what Chas
Chas Fields:creating a culture in a space where employees really can thrive mentally, physically, emotionally, in the way that meets their needs, right? Like you talk a ton about employee expectations. And if if so much of this is built on trust and transparency in the workplace. The idea behind Hey, we're just going to give you back an extra day in front load your hours or maybe they don't, maybe they still pay you 40 hours and you work 20 hours a week and in those four days, you work five hour days and they pay you for 40 amazing, but I think from a business perspective, that's an easy job to cut, right like when times get tough and you know, you're not over producing or you're you know, whatever it is I think it's a really easy, easy way to look into you know what, we're going to continue to boost our profits and cut staff. I don't know Yeah, I don't know. Let me let me ask you this. What do you think it'll do logistically for company you know, like, sir Recent distribution companies, if if companies who were selling whatever they're selling, what do you think it's going to do? Logistically?
Julie Develin:I think it affects business continuity, I think it could affect business continuity. And from a logistics perspective, a lot of these organizations, you know, they're very, very strict in terms of what it is that they're doing on a certain day. And that kind of thing. I mean, the other consideration here is, is it a four day work week for the company? Or is it a four day work week for some people in the company? And is that four day work week, Monday through Thursday, or Tuesday through Friday, or somewhere in between there, right. Now, the other thing, the way that it could work? Let's say you have a 24/7 operation? Okay. And, you know, again, it goes, I go back to that shift work, I think it's different, I think this becomes different when you have hourly employees versus salaried employees. And when we read a lot of these things online, it's not talking about that. It's just talking about four days, that's all you're gonna have
Chas Fields:you there's no reason there's no basis perception or lens whatsoever.
Julie Develin:Right? So when you just read the headlines, it seems like Nirvana for workers, four days, you know, but let's look at the surface. Let's look underneath the surface and see what the implications really are. I mean, think about to like, if you have people, I don't know, there's so many different scenarios, right? If you have people that are that are out on vacation, and generally work a four day work week, and then, you know, you have some some shifts then that aren't covered because of that, and I can I can name a million different scenarios. What I think I think it's it's pretty clear that in this oh, gosh, new world of work, right?
Chas Fields:Yeah, it's like, five swear, word.
Julie Develin:Hybrid work isn't going anywhere. So I think the next question that we it's begged is, is this really needed? Or is it a hybrid approach that's going to help people to feel like they're where what is the real thing here? Chas? Is it that we're saying people don't want to work as hard? So
Chas Fields:I think for you and I, that's an easy, that's an easy salute result to get to not solution, but result to get to, you know, I? It's not that I I really don't care if companies go to a four day workweek, who's going to be gutsy enough to go and do it and be the forefront? What type of business is it going to be? What type of worker and what type of industry? We haven't mastered hybrid work yet? Right? No, they've mastered it. No, no mastering, you know, companies. And here's what will happen as as we continue to go down this path, I think the government will get involved. I think they're going to figure out a way to regulate it for companies and say, here's, here's what you can and can't do, because you can't disrupt supply chain, because people want an extra day. Right? I say that I say that with a caveat of within specific industries. All right, you've got companies and corporations, multibillion and trillion dollar corporations who bank off of five day workweeks, seven, the people who create your food, the people who deliver your food that people who stock your food, you're gonna go to a grocery store and say, Hey, you're only going to operate for days.
Julie Develin:Right, exactly. That's kind of scary. Well also think about the people that rely on overtime money.
Chas Fields:And they're already working beyond 45 days to begin with. Right? So there's, there's there's a compliance piece of this too, that goes along. Are you going to change significant laws when it comes to compliance? And how is that going to affect unions? And what's gonna say
Julie Develin:collective bargaining agreements? Are they going to all have to be renegotiated? Again, so many different things, and you may have some companies that are partially unionized, you know, and then, you know, some companies that are that are not and there's, you're gonna have to it's a renegotiation Chas of expectations, the renegotiation of what I talked about the psychological contract, you know, what is it that that's expected of, of employees and what to employees expect from the organization? And, you know, if they see some people in the organization being quote, unquote, allowed to do a four day work week, or, or even let's, let's not even call it a four day work week, let's just call it a varied schedule. Right, or, or something like that. You know, we there's a, there's a, there's a concern for fairness here, too. We have to make sure that we are treating employees fairly for those folks who are looking to do this and those folks who are who are looking not to not so But it's in the news. It's it's a buzz prior to COVID. This has been this was a huge conversation, right? I remember it. I remember, January, February of 2020. Before everything sort of hit, I was doing some googling on this research, Googling, right? And I was reading, there's just so many different things that were being written about the four day workweek. And should we move to a four day work week, and I feel like as a collective society, we were moving in that way towards that discussion. And then of course, everything just completely shut down. So
Chas Fields:let's, let's, let's shift the narrative a little bit. Clearly, our opinions on four day work week, and what we think may or may not happen is, is there the other piece, I would say, let's talk about hybrid work. Just Just what are you hearing, as far as the companies, you've talked to how hybrid work is going?
Julie Develin:I'm hearing that nobody, still folks don't have it figured out. But they're trying to put more policies in place. I'm seeing companies now saying, Okay, in this department, this department, you're going to work hybrid, Tuesdays and Thursdays, right, this department, you're going to work hybrid Mondays, and Wednesdays, etc. and really making sure that there are people that are in the office. That's a whole other conversation. And I know we've discussed this on some other episodes. But when, when we're asking folks to come back into the office, and we're asking folks to shift their schedule in any way, whether it's a four day workweek or not, we as employers have to be transparent about the whys. Right? Why? Why do I have to do this? Again, I, as a worker, have seen what I'm capable of doing in a remote setting, and a hybrid setting and a whatever setting and I know that I can be productive, right? So if you're now asking me to shift everything, and do what you're mandated me to do, is that going to affect my life and therefore affect my productivity?
Chas Fields:Yeah, the hybrid work model is not mastered, what I can say is, in my experience, and talking with companies, when people are in person, they are Better Together, right? They just they are and I know it's not conducive, we got a really, really good example of what remote work looks like. We've been remote employees for a long time. But I think those that weren't remote, were forced to figure it out. And then they realize they really enjoyed it. And then there, there's another group of people that are office people, right? They just 100% of a former colleague of mine, a dear friend, his name's Brian, he will tell you COVID was the worst part of his career because he thrived being with people in a physical office. So you're trying to cater to different people where I think we have a responsibility as employees. Yes, we need to understand the why the decision is made. But this is our employer, like in the privatize, like this is our employer and we owe some respect to engage with their decision, whether you agree or disagree, I do a lot of things just in general that I don't always agree with. But the point is, it's for the better of the organization, it's for the better of those around me. And that's kind of the lens I approach it is, we're a team, a company is just a really, really big team. And you're not you're you're one component of the team, you're one participant in the team. So at some point, I have to trust the organization that what they're doing really is best for us in the company. Right? And that's where the security lies. The job security lies
Julie Develin:out there. One more caveat out there. Sure. Let's say let's say I work four days a week, but I have a really, really important meeting on the fifth day.
Chas Fields:And it's gonna throw you in overtime. And you're out. But do
Julie Develin:I? Do I then take off another day? Or do I not?
Chas Fields:This government's gonna have to get in late, right? Yeah,
Julie Develin:I don't know. I, I feel like it's more HR. And I feel like also like, if you're going to do this, you better make sure you have a really good timekeeping system
Chas Fields:and flexible scheduling and shift swaps and labor forecasts.
Julie Develin:And that you have a way to measure employee sentiment surrounding this by using AI bi, you know, having a having a tech system that works in that way. So that way you can have continuous insights into that.
Chas Fields:So I think so much of this drives back to one of the things we talked about a lot here at UKG is that employee continuum of needs Right, and employee and employer choice like being that company. You know, as you think about it. Before, when you were required to go to the office, you really didn't get an opinion on that it was no, you're just required to come in. And as much as you disliked it, you did it because it was your job, right? And that this idea, and I don't want to call an entitlement, because there are things that you enjoy doing. When you do work from home. Look, I'd be really hard for me to go back to the office, I'm the first one in the front is a man, it would be really hard for me to go back to the office just with my job, but at the same time, do I love the organization that I work for that says, hey, you're gonna go to an office? And is it the place that you want to be going back to the employee experience and expectations and what I enjoy? Absolutely, I would do it in a heartbeat. You know? So this goes back to the original discussion, do you? Or are you creating a culture where you may not like everything, but the company is willing to support you in every way they can. Even though you're still going to have to do things you don't necessarily like or enjoy. Now, it's a delicate balance, right? It
Julie Develin:really is. It really is. So once you find your purpose in today, man,
Chas Fields:I found my purpose and just hearing difference of opinions in the four day workweek. I can't wait a year from now when we go back and we listen to this and we say, oh, boy, were we wrong, or oh,
Julie Develin:I'm right or wrong. Chad's right or wrong. I know what I'm saying. For me, my takeaway here is that this is a conversation that is continuing. And I don't think that I don't know that I necessarily, we're not we don't have to debate this. I don't know that I agree that the government is gonna get involved because a lot of this has to do with private business. But I think that's the other thing to look at. Is the federal government. Are they going to afford a work week? You know, what, are they doing? Something that something that consider?
Chas Fields:And I hope not, because in TSA, their governor? You know, so again, go back to your point departments and whatnot. Yeah, sectors. So I do I disagree, though. We don't have to debate but I disagree. I think that there's so much that it will or could impact that they they will there will be a broader study. Now, if they keep it at the state level. You know, that's a completely different conversation. But I do think at some point, it's going to be lobbied one way or the other. All right. Well, we would you find our purpose to put some dollars
Julie Develin:on that. No, my purpose, my purpose was that this is a conversation that's going to be continuing. So Alright, folks, we'd be curious to know what you think and if your company is, is utilizing a four day work week, or you know what kind of innovative scheduling that you're doing. So, hey, a few reminders. Before we leave, don't forget to like and subscribe. Check us out on social media sites. Check us out on LinkedIn. Also, be sure to look at the latest blogs and research from the workforce is Saudi UKG by visiting workforce institute.org if you'd be so kind as to give us a rating on whatever platform you're listening on. Only if it's good, of course, I'm kidding now, only only that helps us that helps us and as always, we really appreciate everybody listening and thank you so much
Chas Fields:for tuning in. Yeah, cheers. Bye