When you think of a great leader, what qualities do you think of? What can you or your manager do to become a better leader? In this episode of The People Purpose Podcast, Chas and Julie discuss the different qualities of great leaders. Plus, find out how many organizations prioritize developing leaders, in today's business stat of the day.
Subscribe to the People Purpose Podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify or watch on YouTube.
Resources:
Our Website
The Workforce Institute
When you think of a great leader, what qualities do you think of? What can you or your manager do to become a better leader? In this episode of The People Purpose Podcast, Chas and Julie discuss the different qualities of great leaders. Plus, find out how many organizations prioritize developing leaders, in today's business stat of the day.
Subscribe to the People Purpose Podcast on Apple Podcasts and Spotify or watch on YouTube.
Resources:
Our Website
The Workforce Institute
Hey, y'all. Welcome to the people purpose podcast, the show that explores all of the ins and outs, challenges and opportunities, HR people, managers and all people face at work every day. I am with my co host colleague, workplace bestie. Miss
Julie Develin:Julie Develin
Chas Fields:happy I guess it was already new year a couple of weeks ago, but happy new year again, because we didn't really catch up a lot in recent because it's just been crazy busy already. Which is good. It's good. Yeah. Yeah,
Julie Develin:it has been it's been crazy busy already. And looking forward to all the opportunities that the new year brings. Although, you know. Yeah, you know, you know, I don't think either one of us really thinks that the New Year is like,
Chas Fields:we have to change. No, we talked about that. And I did a post the day after New Years. And it's just like, if for whatever reason I don't buy in on the whole New Year thing is, here's the reality, like, we work so hard for the next thing. And the next thing, the next thing and the next thing that just because the clock happens to strike midnight on a certain day, it's like all of a sudden, oh, this change is going to happen and I'm going to be better and it's like, no, you just need to pick a moment, like micro habit to be better or to change for the better. And the or not and then Bill, right. That's anyways, we've seen a lot of things come to fruition, which is really cool. Jules. Yeah.
Julie Develin:It's for the new year. It's like, I don't know. I just never. It always stressed me out more than it did give me like optimism. That's just me. Did you see New
Chas Fields:Year's like, I we didn't even talk about this on the last episode on the on the way in episode. Do you actually see midnight on New Year's? Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm not even. I was asleep at 830 Yeah, but we've
Julie Develin:had this conversation a billion times. I'm a night owl. I know. I'm an I'm a night owl. So like midnight for me is is nothing. You know, I didn't hear I did hear like I was reading some articles. And there was a there was a plane that was going across time zones and the people on the plane, would they celebrate a 2024? And then they went back in the 2023. Because of how
Chas Fields:because of the timezone. Yeah, kind
Julie Develin:of cool. I know. And then and then of course, there's always a story of the twins that are born in different years. That happened. Yeah, yeah. The lady had a baby before midnight, and then after midnight, it was what a story for the rest of their lives.
Chas Fields:That's pretty cool. That's actually really cool. It's one of those icebreakers. Hey, we about when you were born, let me tell you pull up a chair. Okay, so new episode New Year, which means new prompt before we did tell me something good. For those of you that listen often. Thank you, you knew we would do tell some tell us something good. But now Julie, what's on your mind? What's the new prompt? No.
Julie Develin:And what's on your mind thing we started doing if past couple episodes, we explained it. Just because it's not there's not always something good. And there doesn't have to always be something good. But the what's on your mind thing isn't necessarily a bad thing. Is just what's on our mind today? Well, it's on my mindset HS, is that it hasn't started snowing yet here in the northeast, but I'm already over it. They're actually calling for snow. And this weekend, and I'm legitimately thinking of just going to Florida, because I don't want to be here for this. And then I'm trying to I'm trying to be for you. But I'm trying to process that. Like in my head like what does that mean? You know, like, I have this pole to just not even be here for it. So like, what does that mean? You know, I used to love so used to love Yeah,
Chas Fields:I'll tell you this. I did. One summer without it. One summer without it when we move to Texas or one summer one winter. Winter without air in Texas. And I don't mind not going back at all. Yeah, it's, you know,
Julie Develin:part of the issue is that the past two winters we've gotten zero snow at all. So it's like, okay, I can do the cold that's fine, but like This now is not just not what about you what's on your mind?
Chas Fields:We're in the process of working through closing on house and selling our existing one. So we all know that you know, I've talked about it in prior episodes now it's like all coming to fruition, it's all the fun things that come along with it. There's never a good time to buy or sell. But the other piece of it too, is spring is close. Spring is close here to our I'll be able to play golf and enjoy things more consistently. So no, I don't do well on the cold anymore. Julie, I really, really don't.
Julie Develin:Again, is why I'm like, What am I doing here? Like? Like, I don't know,
Chas Fields:I don't know how to sell the house.
Julie Develin:I don't know, I don't know if Maryland is the place, you know, and I'm not even not even that far north, you know? So should we talk?
Chas Fields:Let's talk more do you want to do business? Just
Julie Develin:having this conversation? Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's do a business out of the day, like we do all the time. So well, 83% of organizations believe it's important to develop leaders at every level of the company, only 5% of businesses have implemented Leadership Development at all levels. So the question becomes Chas, what do you think about that?
Chas Fields:That's sad. It's, like, I It's hard to be frank about it. But it's sad because you, the business wants to grow, employees want to grow people, I think innately want to move up the ladder into leadership positions. And then we say, oh, it's really important to develop leaders. And yet, we're only gonna do 5% of that. So it's kind of a letdown. Right. It's kind of a letdown. So I think it's really sad. To be honest, I would want more out of a company, right? Yeah, no,
Julie Develin:we do. But isn't there is are there so many different nuances to that, like the size of the company, the budget for something like that the manpower that matter?
Chas Fields:should that matter, though?
Julie Develin:I don't know. I don't know.
Chas Fields:I don't I don't think it should, right. Oh, we want to grow as a business. Oh, we want to scale Oh, we want to do you know, make money. And yet, we're not going to actually implement the how, for?
Julie Develin:What what organizations do is they don't they don't develop people they have they hire outside people. They don't look into that. And you know, we've talked
Chas Fields:about this, or they promote someone who's really good at that individual contributor role. And then it's like, okay, go lead. And then like, oh, I don't know if I was cut out for this? Or is this really what leadership is like, you know, because
Julie Develin:you're good individual contributor does not mean you're going to be a good manager. What a segue.
Chas Fields:So, today, Julie, you know, you know, I got fired up because I was messaging you about this. And I was like, Okay, talk to 1000s of people talk to a lot of people, leaders who talked to a lot of just regular employees. We've done kind of a looking at leadership episode in the past, and I kind of had this moment, this aha moment of like, look, what do employees really want from their leaders? So we started talking to people, but that's really that's really broad. It is, it is very broad. It is very broad. And there are more points in what we are going to make here. But our take is a little bit different. Our take is a little bit different. Because i Julie, I just I read all the articles, and I looked at some of the, from being honest, some of the bias research and just like, some of it is just not humanized. And I thought, maybe Julie and I should talk about this right, from our experience and from others. So here's what I will tell you first point, Julie, people want feedback. Okay, like, Chas. We know people want feedback. Here's my caveat. They want fearless feedback, that potentially might hurt a little bit. All right, do they? Do they? Here's, here's my point. Okay. When I say hurt, I think people and I'm going to use this as an example for people who are really, really good at their jobs. Okay, people who are self starters, people who go in and I am categorizing that feedback for these folks. And then you can counter with those that don't. For the folks that are really good at their job, and can do their job well. And you know, they're going to do their job well. The folks that I have talked to, that get the feedback of, oh, you're doing great and keep doing what you're doing and they walk away and they say, that wasn't really helpful. doing what you're doing.
Julie Develin:I mean, it like performance appraisal time or anytime, anytime.
Chas Fields:I think performance appraisal, obviously is income, you know, summed up with that but like you think about these individuals who are designed I need to continuously think about growing and challenge themselves. And you know that when you give them a project that they're going to do well with it. And then it's a, hey, you know, you're awesome, keep doing what you're doing. And almost is like, that
Julie Develin:doesn't help us grow, it helps.
Chas Fields:It doesn't help anyone grow.
Julie Develin:But it doesn't hurt, it just read, it reinforces the good behavior or the good outcome. Correct. But what you're saying, if we go back to that stat, it's not developing someone as as either a leader or a better employee Case
Chas Fields:in point because you don't have to be in a position of management to be a leader. Right.
Julie Develin:Some of the best leaders that organizations aren't in manage.
Chas Fields:That's, that's the take that I'll use for the teaser. So so the idea of fearless feedback. And again, we can talk about management styles and how things are delivered, you know, maybe in a little bit, or maybe it's uncomfortable for the manager to be able to do that. But I think in the world, it's this idea of we all have to be happy and kosher, and things are good. And, you know, you have to achieve happiness. And I don't, I don't think that's always the case. Because you do have that group of people who are self starters, ambitious, who deliver things, well, that almost need a dose of I don't know, if it's humility, or harsh feedback to be like, Wait, hold on, here's an area that you can actually develop that may or may not hurt their feelings.
Julie Develin:So are you saying that? Yeah, but this isn't really about feelings? What if there really isn't anything? What if the person is doing great? Are you saying we're not helping them grow? If we don't find something? Because then what you're doing is you're forcing a managers hand to find something that
Chas Fields:managers should be doing that anyway, shouldn't they? To find some way that they can help their employee grow?
Julie Develin:Well, yeah, okay. Fair.
Chas Fields:Point. So that's, I think that's what I'm trying to encompass with fearless feedback is, let's, let's take the feeling away. But the fearless feedback is, maybe we know it will hurt their feelings. Maybe it won't hurt their feelings. Maybe we just need to have a direct conversation. Maybe it's uncomfortable because that discomfort is what helps us grow. Right? Okay. That's the point I'm trying to do.
Julie Develin:What you have to realize in this conversation, you have said the F word a million times, which is feeling? Oh,
Chas Fields:I would take a step back. Fit
Julie Develin:feelings? Sure. Like, I feel I feel my feelings are that you you in this take, have have Take. Take a what's the word? You question? Bringing feelings into the workplace?
Chas Fields:No, in fact, I don't question bringing feelings into the workplace. I think that's unavoidable. I think feelings what you're saying what
Julie Develin:you're saying is, what you're saying is, you know, what, your feelings? Here's the feedback.
Chas Fields:I think I think you have to step out into a zone of discomfort on both sides from a feelings perspective to help someone grow if you know, right.
Julie Develin:Yeah, but as people, we we try to avoid conflict. So that's part of the problem when it comes to these conversations, because we're trying to avoid that uncomfortable, miss. Right. But here's another thing.
Chas Fields:I think that's kind of part of the problem, though. This is this is this is where I think a lot of times people come in and say, you know, hey, go do a survey, they don't like to survey results, and then they do nothing about it. Right. So so so these are sentiments, employees feelings, they don't like, you know, whoever issued the survey doesn't like it, and then you don't do anything about it. Then attrition spikes. It's like, oh, well, what happened? It's, yes, it's the premise of feelings. But there also has to be a level of acceptance and discomfort in the fact that hey, someone disagrees with the way that you're doing things. Right? Therefore, my feelings are hurt. And you know, there has to be a little bit of separation maybe that's what I'm trying to get at
Julie Develin:your feelings are hurt or that you genuinely don't believe that you're doing the wrong thing. I guess it could be any up vote. Yeah, I
Chas Fields:think it can be either and. Right. Yeah. So
Julie Develin:what we're going so what we're going for going back to this questions, feedback, your feedback, right, that we're talking about here on this on this episode? Um, what what I mean, what else about this right forget about the feelings. I mean, should we also talk about how a lot of times managers will wait until the performance appraisal to give that negative feedback And then blindsides the person because all along and day to day, I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I'm doing great. I'm doing great. And then all of a sudden you get to the review where maybe there's compensation attached. Like, oh, wait, actually, you're not doing so great. Yeah, there
Chas Fields:were if you remember, there were a ton of memes that we're doing that around the holidays, because, you know, you knew that the memes that were circulating social media about, oh, it shouldn't be an issue at your performance review, you should know what's coming up, or here comes my performance review. I did great. Here's the pizza party, right?
Julie Develin:Or it's a $20 bonus. Oh, yeah. Companies are, you know, reporting record profits. And the optics aren't very good there.
Chas Fields:There has to be some acceptance to I think, on both sides that that feedback is uncomfortable for both parties, whether it's positive or negative.
Julie Develin:What about hey, I have a novel idea. What about acknowledging it? Before the conversation? Listen, this is going to be hard. Yes, this is going to be Yeah, this is going to be hard. And let's also let's also talk about managers, and how managers can sort of make those conversations a little bit easier. Instead of like, when, when having the conversations, hey, I need to talk to you. That's always like, Oh, my gosh, I'm getting fired, right? But
Chas Fields:it's amazing that you bring it up because it's communication through self awareness. Right? Which is really our point to here. Go ahead. Well,
Julie Develin:self awareness from a managerial perspective also has includes the title, because I think so often, and I've used this example, before, the CEO of the company, I used to work for used to always say things to me, like, oh, you know, why didn't they tell me I'm like, because you're the CEO. That's why they didn't tell you is that because they don't like you as a person? It's because you hold the title and you hold the power,
Chas Fields:right? There's separation there, right? Whether or not you're
Julie Develin:a quote, unquote, powerful leader or not, is a or you know, an iron fist leader. Like, that's, that's irrelevant. The fact that you have that title, you're going to be held to a different standard. And people guys
Chas Fields:also think that communication through self awareness, let me ask you this, was there ever a time that you always had a manager that just relayed the info? Like that was the preface kind of what you're talking about, as? Well, you know, I'm just relaying the info.
Julie Develin:Oh, and without like, like, basically just like, not taking ownership of it, or not having it like, it's not me, it's them? Well,
Chas Fields:and more importantly, I think, you know, if if you're doing a good job, as a manager and communicating through self awareness, you know, what questions your team will probably ask, by delivering whatever message it is. And that's, that is a skill that takes time to harness let me be clear about that. That is not something that just happens overnight. Even if you do like, hey, how do you accept feedback? How do you like your communication style? What time would you like it? You know, it's something that you learn over time based on your employees as you get to know them. But the just relaying the info, almost is like, I kind of have your back, but I kind of don't you know what I mean? Have you ever experienced that?
Julie Develin:I'm sure I have it. I mean, I don't have anything that comes like right to mind about it. But I'm sure I mean, I'm sure I have. I mean, I've had many, many different managers, and I've been the manager also. And gosh, let's have that conversation. I wasn't, I probably would, you know, second guessed 1000 different things that I did and didn't do. Right. You know, I was the kind of manager that allowed people to have autonomy sometimes to a fault. Because that, yeah, because then, you know, you know, they question it. Well, why aren't you checking in on me or whatever? Well, they're so good at their job. It's like, Well, I'm just let me do my job. You are doing your job. So it's like, right, I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. I I think a lot of this also has to do with the personality of the manager. And knowing knowing who you are sort of, like how do you come off and conversations? Do you come off as abrasive? You come off as gentle? Like, do you come off as condescending? Like, I think it's important that managers also ask for feedback and receive feedback on those things. You know, hey, tell me if what I'm saying, you know, isn't jiving or you disagree or whatever? Would you agree?
Chas Fields:I would, I would. I think we go back to the premise of this where it's what you what the employees want, right? And what they want, I think is a deep level of integrity from their from their manager. Part of that integrity is a little bit of discomfort when you have an employee that comes in and who may be abrasive, right? The rest of the team is expecting you to go handle and say, Hey, and I'm just using you as an example. Julie, this is totally not the way but it's like, Hey, Julie, you know, I think I need you to take a step back and take a deep breath before you, you know, speak on team meetings. I know you're passionate. Right. But sometimes it comes across a little harsh. Right?
Julie Develin:And I've had that happen.
Chas Fields:So if I, you know, not not,
Julie Develin:but not not that, not that I'm coming across harsh that maybe I'm talking too much or out of turn, either. And then, and then that's a whole a whole thing, because you're like, Well, what I what I have to say isn't important. And you know this?
Chas Fields:I thought you wanted autonomy? Yeah, I totally, it's a delicate balance.
Julie Develin:It really is. Yeah,
Chas Fields:it's a delicate balance. I would say from that integrity lens employees want to feel as though that manager is doing the right thing, even though it goes against what the company may be saying or doing.
Julie Develin:Yeah, right. Also talk about how an employee you can one day you can say to an employee, keep doing what you're doing. And then let's say the following week, that employee completely messes up, then then what, then you're gonna have to say, Oh, well, I know last week, I said, Keep doing what you're doing. But don't do that. Yeah, but actually don't keep doing what you're doing.
Chas Fields:Right? Would you ever want to go back into debt managing people?
Julie Develin:You're gonna put my back against the wall?
Chas Fields:Well, no, you don't have to answer that. We didn't script that. No,
Julie Develin:it's certainly not. But not none of this is pretty scripted. Yeah. I don't I don't know. You know, I used to always say, you know, at the organization I worked for they are employees took care of people with developmental disabilities, intellectual disabilities, and that job is very difficult. That many times was the easy part of the manager's job to, you know, to make sure that the consumers were taken care of the hard part was dealing with the staff. The hard part was the scheduling, the calling out the bickering between staff, the the lackadaisical, you know, not showing up, even if you're there, right? I mean, being on the phone all shift. And, you know, management is not for the faint of heart, no matter who, or where, or what size organization you're managing, I think that each manager needs to be humble enough and be be open enough to a process of continuous growth. So so the way that you manage one employee may not be the same way that you need to manage another employee and recognizing that and recognizing the differences, I think, is a it's a skill that not many people possess. You know, so I don't know, I would, I would encourage our listeners, you know, think of some of the best managers you've had. And then think of some of maybe those managers who left a little bit to be desired. And what were the differences there? And if you are the manager, you know, what are you doing, to make sure that the people that you're managing are growing? Again, you know, you get we get into this conversation. Let's grow our people, right? Are people need to know how much of the responsibility lies on the organization Chas?
Chas Fields:If you ask a self starter, I would say 25%. Right. If you if you have somebody in and that's just a ballpark estimate, I think it goes to show that there's no right or wrong way in these types of conversations. But in the, in the conversations I've had with all of the people that we've had, they want to know that someone's doing the right thing, right? They want it to come from a place of integrity, they want somebody to not always tell them like it is but tell them in a way that's received. And that is, well, you know, we don't have to dance around the issue. It's it's a conversation that can be had with great thoroughness, and understanding from both sides and then through self awareness piece, it's like employees know if you're attacking them, right employees know if it's, if it's coming out harsh employees know that. So as a leader, to have that self awareness to say, Hey, let me take a step back here preface it and they great example that you provided. This is going to be hard conversation, right? Yeah. I don't want to have this conversation. Because I like you, Julie. I like you as an employee. I like you as a person. However, here are some things that we need to focus on. Right, whatever, whatever that looks like. And then I was say the last piece is just the genuineness, right? How many times or how many people did you talk to over the last, I don't know, six months that they felt their leader or their organization was disingenuous.
Julie Develin:disingenuous? I don't I don't? I don't I don't know. I mean, I don't know that I've had that exact conversation. But I imagine, I imagine there's, I don't know, it really just depends, right? It's always a product of whatever circumstances that they're in. And, you know, I think another thing that becomes difficult for people, when it comes to managers, and the feedback that they get or don't get is when people change managers often. So one of the challenges that I had at when I was the VP of HR is we used to have to change based on the nature of the business. And please don't ask, it was we, we change people change managers, at least every two years. Right. And that is hard, because there's no consistency there. So you know, you're having to build new relationships and learn, you know, new new people and understand the nuances. And what happened is that a lot of the people that worked at the organization, were had much more tenure than the actual managers. So the role reversal, when it comes to training and development, it was the employee who was training the new manager, and then the new manager was the whole the whole dynamic was was very, very difficult. And, and, and sort of backwards, if I'm being honest. And yeah, but it was just the circumstances that we were in. So
Chas Fields:yeah, I think I think conversations like this, though, and helping understand or what people want or need in these types of circumstances where whether it's, whether it's feedback, whether it's an employee believing you're you're genuine, or a manager, recognizing the way they're delivering a message. The reality of it is, this is one of those evolving things that may change six months from now. Yeah,
Julie Develin:one last thing I'll say is sometimes people have more than one manager. And then what? And I'll just, we should just stop.
Chas Fields:Should we add it to the bucket of rats in another conversation for another day?
Julie Develin:I guess, or when you have a managers manager usurping the actual manager. And you know, with the feedback, there's, there's a lot, there's just a lot that we
Chas Fields:don't want to do. Nevermind, I'll save that for another conversation. Another episode for another day. I think that's number four in two episodes. So you could tell it's been a while since you and I sat down and chatted because
Julie Develin:we don't struggle. We don't struggle for conversation. That's true. Not an issue that we have. Would you like me to close it out? Child? I can't have
Chas Fields:love for you. Would you find a purpose?
Julie Develin:Oh, my purpose. We're all just doing the best we can.
Chas Fields:Let's Survival.
Unknown:Survival. How about you?
Chas Fields:Yeah, I would say I would say it's let's just treat people well. Let's just treat people well. I like fearless feedback.
Julie Develin:I feel I feel like I feel like we did like a smorgasbord of topics in this episode when it comes to management and that's just the way that it goes sometimes. So thanks for listening. Don't forget to like, subscribe, use the hashtag people purpose pod, visit workforce institute.org For all the latest research and info, and we look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks so much, everybody. Cheers. Bye.