Made For Recycling (Julian Thielen) Germany

https://www.interseroh.plus/en/packaging-optimisation/made-for-recycling-interseroh/#:~:text='Made%20for%20Recycling'%20is%20a,the%20type%20of%20disposal%20needed.

How is Interseroh helping customers make their packaging easier to recycle?
Why is mono material so important?

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https://www.linkedin.com/company/interserohplus/

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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Mr. Julian Thielen, the head of Made for Recycling. How are you, Julian?

Julian Thielen: 0:41

I'm fine. Thank you very much. How about you?

Cory Connors: 0:43

Very good. Thank you so much for taking time. I know it's late where you are. Can you tell us where you're located there?

Julian Thielen: 0:50

Yeah, we're located in Cologne, Germany. So, yeah, it's half past 9 over

Cory Connors: 0:56

here evening calls. Like, like you said, though, the day is nearly over where we've got our head on straight. We can talk about, packaging and recycling and do all the good things. But before we get into that too far, can we learn a little bit about you? Can you tell us about

Julian Thielen: 1:11

your background? Of course, yeah, I'm now 35 years old, and, I'm in the business of packaging now for. 8 to 9 years, depending on how you calculate. I'm a packaging engineer. So, born and raised some 100 meters from a blown film manufacturing company. So, there's a little bit of family background in here as well. And, yeah, the day I decided to study and what way to go. I've seen, yeah, stand up pouches, flexible packaging and supermarkets becoming a thing, right? I remember when Kellogg switched from their packaging Bag inside the carton box to a mono or not to a mono, but to flexible packaging standard pouch. this became of interest to me and, this is why I decided to, go into the packaging world, studied packaging technology. Bachelor's and master's degree. And after that, yeah, I worked in the field of flexible packaging mostly and took the chance 6 years ago to come back to my hometown Cologne, working and in the recycling industry. So today I'm running the made for recycling department, as you already said, within a main, yeah, recycling company.

Cory Connors: 2:23

Excellent. Well, let's talk about that. Intercero? Did I say that correctly?

Julian Thielen: 2:28

Interzero, yeah. shortly to be interzero. Yeah. it will become an international pronunciation, yes. I like

Cory Connors: 2:37

that. So that's the name of the company. That's the company's name. And, it's, the idea is, zero waste. Is that kind of the thought process there?

Julian Thielen: 2:47

Exactly, and, our target is to create a world without waste. So to minimize, the waste that needs to be incinerated to be done, the landfills and, we see every, everything as a raw material again, when it's put into the bin. Either it's a paper bin, the packaging and plastic bin, whatever color it has on the world. we want to see the value. We want to give it a value and we want to bring it back into the circle. This is the main, the main target we follow, and we are vertically integrated into the whole chain. So, depending where you want to start the circle, we have trucks to get, the waste bins from the households. We have five sorting plants in Germany, so we are the largest sorter of lightweight packaging. In Europe, so technically every 3rd packaging in Germany is going through our sorting lines. Amazing. And then the next step polypropylene, polyethylene recycling we're doing on our own. and here we're making the reciclates out of this. So bringing it back into the packaging and my job and the job of my colleagues and my department is to design the packaging of our partners. Of our customers in a way that they are valuable that they are can be collected properly that they can be sorted properly and the end. Yeah, making the best quality out of this. So this is 1 of the leverages I'm working on, to get the highest possible recycling foods.

Cory Connors: 4:16

That's really excellent. I gave a talk yesterday at a local event, and, one of my, co speakers, Derek Schroeder, was talking about designing for recyclability, designing for circularity. it sounds like this is exactly what you do, and, I've never heard of a recycling, company that will actually help, manufacturers of packaging, with their designs. This is really exciting.

Julian Thielen: 4:44

Yeah, it's, it just needed to happen, right? because packaging out of several regions developed into, um, from technology into a field where they are highly complex. Right. Flexible packaging, right? Because we wanted to save raw material, to save plastic. People switched from rigid packaging to flexible packaging, having 80, 90 percent less plastic use, but we combined polypropylene with polyamide with PET to get all the, functions. From a thicker rigid plastic into a smaller film, excellent, but it wasn't recyclable, right? And this is, these are developments making it for us harder and harder to get materials out of the packaging bin. And yeah, now we're trying to make multi layer materials to mono materials. exactly. You named it. The buzzword is. Design for recycling.

Cory Connors: 5:43

Yeah, that's a very fantastic point. the old way was layer it up. How many layers can we use to make it as thin as possible, but have all those properties of all those different layers and now we're more focusing on mono materials because those multi layer materials are not as easy to recycle or reuse. Frankly,

Julian Thielen: 6:07

exactly. And as I said, I worked in the flexible packaging business before that. And I was faced with the questions on how can we go to moon material? I've seen how hard it is. And I knew the reasons. Why it's almost impossible to go from the multilayer materials. It's not that fast on the lines. it's having issued with the product safety. We had so many reasons, but now we see in so many projects that is possible and yeah, there's so much technology behind that.

Cory Connors: 6:42

Yeah, I agree. So many advancements in the last couple of years in this area. Can you tell us a little bit about AI? Everybody wants to talk about AI. Have you or your businesses invested in AI sorting technologies?

Julian Thielen: 6:59

in smarter applications or smaller applications, I should say, so, for example, one great example that we use AI already is in detection of silicone cartridges to see silicone cartridges. We know from, from, the DIY sector, are having a massive influence on the quality of. PE Recyclate. If there's a cartridge when it's not fully emptied. With silicone, and there's just small residues in there that can make up to 17 tons of PE unrecyclable, unusable, basically. So this is why there is on every sorting plant, mostly human beings taking out all the cartridges. Right. All the copies. Nobody's looking at reading a silicone. No, even acrylic adhesives are taken out. So basically everything. so we used AI to solve that problem. So camera systems combined with NIR, so Near Infrared technology. looking for specific silicon cartridges. And this was one way we already used AI.

Cory Connors: 8:13

Yeah. That's fascinating. So here we call that caulking. Is that, that's a word that you've heard or is that not common over in Europe? I don't know that English term. No. Yeah. So, It would be a sealant around window frames or something like that. Is that's what you're talking about? Yeah, I

Julian Thielen: 8:32

don't want to go too deep into the topic, but it's possible. also without any Tracers or something so it was seen in the material. It was seen with the Print satellite printings that were used and was just the, the shape of these cartridges. So this all together already worked. Yeah. There were also systems in exactly for that application that work with tracers, right? Some. Yeah, or the, digital watermarks or, fluorescent tracers that give that, that, have the information about, the packaging type about the ingredient and stuff, but there are applications that don't even need this and yeah, AI, machine learning, near infrared technology, camera technology, Will solve so many things and the possibilities are there. Yeah,

Cory Connors: 9:25

it's exciting, it's scary and exciting all at the same time, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I love the idea of fluorescent, writing and graphics, to even the, invisible, naked to the naked eye. yes. this is incredible technology.

Julian Thielen: 9:41

Yeah, there are two sides of that. Of course, one thing is the detection that works or it can work. But, one thing is the database behind when you see when the camera does see something or detect something, it needs to have the information from the database within milliseconds. And, yeah, one thing is then having access in that short time, but also having the information somewhere in the cloud already. So, two things that the, companies are working on are the detection side, but we need also to focus on the database. What data do we need to collect within the whole value chain about packaging, about the product, about recyclability, the printing inks, and how to use it.

Cory Connors: 10:29

Yeah, I agree. It's the data is so valuable. So important. two of my partners, scrap my friend, Mikey and his team scrap recycling, which identifies if an item is recyclable, wherever you are, they now have this massive database. That they can share with Murph's and municipalities and, to help them with their sorting. and it's, you're exactly right. this data needs to be universal eventually. and, but the problem is it continues to change with every single new product. All of a sudden, wait, everything needs to be updated, right?

Julian Thielen: 11:06

Yeah. Yeah. But you need to see also what, great technology, the classic near infrared. Sorting technologies, so infrareds. Detection is like a fingerprint, probably most listeners know, like a fingerprint of each material is the spectrum coming from the IR or near infrared detection. So we can sort materials already and, When there is a multi layer material, for example, or, a highly covered labeled bottle that is basically unsortable, with NIR, it doesn't make the packaging any more recyclable if it knows. That there is a big label on it, and it is the machine knows that it's a multi day material. Nobody wants that material anyway. So we need to have we need to have the design for recycling rules at the beginning to make something, sortable and then we need to see what to use the information, collected. If it's a film, is it inkable? If it's already food grade material, this is valuable information for the recycler. But from the sorting perspective, I think, these watermarks and traces will not have that influence or let me tell you. Is not the holy grail that, um, most, most see and want to get value information out of that,

Cory Connors: 13:04

right? There's a long ways to go here. what just out of curiosity, and maybe this isn't a number you have off the top of your head, what percentage of material that comes into a recycling facility actually goes? Recycling and what gets kicked out because it's just either unsortable or it is actually waste Yeah,

Julian Thielen: 13:28

let me please go with a number for the plastics only because that's the number I am. We're mostly working on glass and stuff isn't some ice. Of course, there are still challenges for metals, aluminum and stuff. but, we're digging in the plastics, so to say. Then we have a new recycling rate, roughly at 67%. Wow. And that, and that value for Germany. That's incredible. Yeah, it's a long way to go. And we highly increased this within the last years. there was a new German packaging act. that gave much more pace onto the topic and forced us for better, better rates, but yeah, 67 percent of plastics going into the sorting mill or sorting line end up at a recycler. Of course, it doesn't mean that 67 percent end up in a new material, right? If there's a PET bottle going to the recycling, you maybe have a paper label or something that's separated. That's not calculated in there. And the issues or the 33 percent left that are not recycled currently are Mainly PT trace for everything besides everything PT that's not a PT bottle. So to say, this is still a field where we need to need improvement where we need more recyclers out there that's dealing with trays besides the bottles. Of course, all the multi layer films. I was addressing earlier that are a massive share flexibles general generally, besides films, are challenging, depending on the sorting plant. You are every new setup plant is having P. film fractions as well. Right but if you're looking for older ones, they are still mixing flexibles together in a PO fraction. so. Yeah, also here is way to improvement and beside that black plastics printed plastics, big labeled plastic bottles. For example, that are undetectable. These are the main fields that we still need to work on, to, to even. Increase the value for the recyclate or recycling photo.

Cory Connors: 15:58

Well, this is really interesting information. Do you get to go to the material recycling facilities or the sorting facilities as part of your job?

Julian Thielen: 16:06

every now and then. Yeah. we are located as I said in Cologne, our sorting plants. The next 1 we're having is about 100 km up north from here. which is also 1 of the most, develop technically developed ones we're having in Europe, and we're doing workshops with our customers right at the starting plants, right? With packaging manufacturers, as well as big brands. we're looking at their portfolio. So, where are the issues? what do they already make good? And we're looking directly on the lines, what's working and what is not to really show. And, yeah, of course, as every time when you are at a machine looking into it, everything is going very fast and it's not, and you hope to see more than you actually do. but what's mind blowing is just the amount of waste. Yeah, we're dealing with it's digging in waste, really? and this is opening eyes for lots of people really to go even more eager about that topic. And yeah, every now and then we're on the starting plaza. No, as well,

Cory Connors: 17:09

I, I enjoy that very much going to the plants to see. I learned something every single time about what to do or what not to do with packaging. But I think you're exactly correct. We need to get more people to these facilities to show them how difficult it is to sort that stuff that they think is, just poof, magic, recycled. Boom. It's not that easy. Yes,

Julian Thielen: 17:35

I would be happy to share with you and the listeners a link to, we have a campaign here in Germany for end consumer awareness. Yeah. and then we're having a 300 degrees tour through, Merv, through a sorting plant. Wow. Over here. And it's quite. yeah, describing but good videos and it's so good to see him. I will share with link with you afterwards. So this will be the best way to look into. And if we cannot make it into a sorting plan with our customers, or, we're visiting them at their facility. I take this videos with me and I can take my time and at each section and show in detail what issues are. that's a good way to go.

Cory Connors: 18:16

And it's quiet and it doesn't smell bad. And yeah,

Julian Thielen: 18:20

it's running over and over.

Cory Connors: 18:22

Yes. Well, that's great. I'll put that link in the show notes. So if you're listening, just scroll up and, and click on that link after the episode. And, yeah, very interesting. what do you, what are you recommending when customers are coming to you? What's, maybe some advice for people who are listening that are in the packaging industry? What are ways to be more circular and more system?

Julian Thielen: 18:43

Keep it simple. So, the easiest. This packaging, is probably most recyclable packaging it's, it were developments of the last decade, making it harder for us to follow these technologies. So make it mono material as much as you can. There are some. Some assumptions for that, but generally monomaterial solutions, polypropylene, polyethylene, PET bottles, are the main streams. That are, developed over here in Europe, as well as in the U S so, yeah, it's an easy way generally easy talking, of course, but, I, when I say to my customer, yeah, go from PTP to P E Mono, I say as fast as I can, but, Of course, I know about the challenges behind that on the machines, investments and stuff. Yeah, but we see is working and we see also developments where the investments. Will come back to you because of, license, licensing fees, packaging license, it will, the costs will, decrease or more sustainable packaging. Of course, the claiming of sustainable packaging, having sustainable packaging on the shelf, that's, taken by end consumers. This will be of high value and yeah, the big supermarket chains . change. They want to have only recyclable packaging in their shelves. So it's not a question of money or something if you don't end up in the shelf. Right. So

Cory Connors: 20:21

you need to change. Wow. Great point. Yeah. And like he said, it helps sell the product and, these are all very positive things for business. To be more sustainable, more, recyclable, more circular. All of these buzzwords are real words. Yes. that we need to abide by . Yeah, that well said. So, are you, are you gonna be speaking at any shows or are you planning to attend any events for packaging? Anything that you would recommend maybe to, people listening.

Julian Thielen: 20:51

yeah, there are some coming, of course, there's the, in, in Europe, we're having the show, which is the main fair we're having in end of September. so this is definitely for everybody on the European continent, something to go. We have the sustainable packaging summit in Amsterdam, I think in November. Yeah, I'll be there. Yeah, you'll be there again. Perfect. So looking forward to see you. I have spoken there last year and it was one of the best, events I attended. Yeah,

Cory Connors: 21:27

that building is so cool. It's beautiful. Fascinating. Yeah, highly recommend that event. And this year, I heard that the sustainable packaging coalition will be there the day before the, so they added a day basically to this show, so they can have their team. For, two separate shows, but same venue right next to each other, a shared partnership deal.

Julian Thielen: 21:53

So at one week before that on November 7th, we're having our own Congress in Cologne again, where we want to bring also the whole value chain. from packaging business together. Last year we had 180 people attending. It's called future resources. So it's in German. So, only for German listeners. Yeah. yeah, it's a week before I think. Do

Cory Connors: 22:15

you have at, at Paris packaging week, they have translators. Do you have those?

Julian Thielen: 22:21

We think about that. Yeah.

Cory Connors: 22:23

not yet. Yeah. Although I'd love to learn German, let me know when, yeah, they have a translator option. Eventually we'll just have earbuds in that we can listen to anybody speak anything as far as I can tell. that's happening fast.

Julian Thielen: 22:37

Yes, definitely. Yeah. So it's, I've attended some of these events and yeah, it's mostly it's working well. So far we kept it quite national. Right. But yeah, the discussion is there year by year. I'm on the international side, to be said between

Cory Connors: 22:54

us. Let us know if we should come one of these days. So what's the, what's a great way for people to get in touch with you and your team?

Julian Thielen: 23:04

I think the easiest way, so we're having LinkedIn channels. my Made for Recycling department. As well as into zero and into zero plus, as having the channels and myself, Julian Teelan on LinkedIn directly, you can reach out, follow, get in touch. I think this is the best way.

Cory Connors: 23:22

Great. Anything else you wanted to tell the audience before we wrap

Julian Thielen: 23:25

up? yeah, just get in touch if you want to learn more about, yeah, sustainable packaging. We're happy to help out. and also we understand ourselves as a matchmaker between innovative packaging manufacturers and the brands looking for the solution, right? We want to bring together what belongs together.

Cory Connors: 23:44

That is so key. This whole thing, collaboration. Partnership. Yes. This is not going to be solved by one company, by one person, by individual, by, consumers, by business. We all have to work together to solve this issue. Just

Julian Thielen: 24:00

talk to each other. so much stuff happening just from small moments, small meetings, or coincidences. But we need to talk.

Cory Connors: 24:09

Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Julian Thielen: 24:12

Thanks very much for having me. It was a great pleasure.