Sonoco (Skye Oudemans) Pringles PKG and more!

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How did Sonoco and team make the Pringles packaging curbside recyclable? 
Why do we need to look for alternatives to EPS? 
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Transcript

Cory Connors: 0:31

Welcome to Sustainable Packaging with Cory Connors. Today's guest is Skye Oudeman. She is the Sustainability Manager for Europe for Sonoco. How are you, Skye?

Skye Oudemans: 0:42

Hi, Corey. I'm great, thanks.

Cory Connors: 0:44

It's great to have you on. I'm a big fan of what you do in the industry and some of the projects that you've worked on have been nationally and internationally renowned, for their sustainability improvements. So excited to talk about those, but let's talk about you first before we get to your company. what's your background? How'd you get into this packaging world?

Skye Oudemans: 1:05

So I found my way to packaging. I, I started out studying international relations. with a focus on kind of international institutions and laws and really came out of that with an interest in sustainability, but also the role that companies could have in that, partly because of just the size, but also the impact they could have and the amount of kind of touch points. that they had with people. so found my way into being a consultant for kind of corporate communications and at the time CSR, corporate social responsibility, and working across industries and really realized there were some I was more interested than others. the ones I was really interested in were the ones that I really felt like I could see the impact, and so from there went to do a degree in food security, that really looked at, the food production, the food system, and then also a huge part of that has to be the environmental aspect, partly because of, agriculture and the food system has such a big impact on the environment, but it's equally totally dependent on the environment. on the environmental systems and resources for its entire functioning. and then there was a huge kind of cultural and social and political aspect to it because food shapes the environment. the world that we live in, the systems, our politics. so went to work in the food and drink industry for a number of years, food and drink manufacturing. and then essentially that blue planet documentary came out. and suddenly there was this huge kind of public interest in packaging. Packaging waste packaging pollution, and so from the food and drink industry, really got drawn more and more into these, the policy discussion, the legislative discussions that were going on in the UK. so then, when Sunoco came with, the opportunity to be sustainability manager for packaging company. It seems like really the right opportunity.

Cory Connors: 3:09

That's so cool. There's so many of these, documentaries that have come out in the recent, I'd say the last 10 to 15 years, more and more, the even recent, just innovations in the way that they're telling the story of sustainability and packaging and the way that they're saying. Look, you can help here as a consumer and, by voting with your dollars and by, your actions can have an effect. But also I think you're right. it's inspiring companies like your customers and ours that are, motivated more and more to be more sustainable.

Skye Oudemans: 3:46

Absolutely. I think it's been a real, vortex, almost, of the consumers being interested, the companies being interested, the industry, the NGOs, and it's really fostered a lot of collaboration, a lot of engagement. Nothing like a quote unquote crisis to get people working together,

Cory Connors: 4:06

right? Very true. and Unfortunately, it has to happen like that sometimes and you have to shock people and say hey this will affect your health This will affect how you breathe This will affect you, the temperature of where you live, very impactful, but let's talk about Sonoco. Did I say that right? Or is it Sonoco or? Sonoco. Sonoco. Okay. So what do you do there? what's the company, known for? Tell us about, that please.

Skye Oudemans: 4:37

So Sunoco is, a U. S. headquarter company, most well known for what we call the rigid paper containers, Including the Pringles, too, for example, I think by the most iconic 1, but we produce a range of consumer packaging across a range of materials. Actually, the bulk of it would be paper based and then we also have industrial and very specialty applications like temperature control solutions. things like that. And I was brought in, just over 2 years ago in the UK, because there's a lot of, like we said, a lot of reform, a lot of legislative change going on. Essentially, the UK is reforming their entire packaging and packaging waste management system. So it's been several years of work already, a lot of engagement directly with government, with trade associations, with industry partners, with our value chain. to make sure that we're contributing to a system that's going to work and I feel strongly that for that to be the case. Industry has to have input about the practicalities and the functioning, and it's important to have a, I want to say a strong goal, really to feel like we're going to make changes and do better and have an ambitious target, but equally to work within. The relationships that exist, the infrastructure that exists all of that. So that's been a big part of my role, but equally looking over to the, you to the countries on the continent. Big legislative packages coming through the packaging and packaging waste regulation. We've been monitoring and trying to contribute to that as well, as well as some of our big key markets in Europe. so, yeah, there's plenty to be getting on.

Cory Connors: 6:31

Right. Well, and you're right, the government has relied on companies like yours and ours to help shape these regulations and, the PPWR is a great example of that. it's easy to just say, well, we'll ban plastic or we'll do this, but, I think. Oftentimes they'll come to packaging companies for a reality check of, Hey, maybe we, you can't be that aggressive yet, but we can be really aggressive over here. And we can make these changes that are innovative and more sustainable. But you mentioned, Pringles, and you've recently announced a huge innovation there that will make it, I believe curbside recyclable. but let's talk about that. This is very exciting. Yeah. Everybody loves Pringles and, including me. So thank you. Great.

Skye Oudemans: 7:19

Glad to hear it. so the big innovation there is that we moved the Pringles to, we've changed the bottom from a metal bottom to a paper fiber based bottom. and. What that means is the fact that you said it's an increase in the, the paper content, an increase in the recyclability, an increase in the amount of it that gets effectively recycled, but it's been such a big project. We were just saying, talking to government about what it takes to make some of these changes. This has been such an interesting example. it's taken, it's spanned years. Countries and many euros or dollars, however you want to measure it. Sure. Because there's so many different aspects to consider. So first of all, the functional aspect, the Pringles chips, have to be protected from oxygen after protected from moisture, and everything else, but those two, and there's a certain expectation of a shelf life, the ability to buy it, take it home, put it away, and it would still be good for a long time. So that any change, especially a change as significant as. the material of the bottom has to be studied in depth, some trials and tests, for that, the functional aspect. And then there's the operational side, does it, what are the machines that you need to run it on? What are the speeds you're achieving? What are the, the, how does it tie into your logistical system? And so it was really a cross functional effort with, what is now telenova. ourselves, our other suppliers, to make sure that all of the pieces of this equation, we're working together. and it's now we're very pleased. It was launched in Belgium and the Netherlands and in the UK earlier this year.

Cory Connors: 9:09

Well, congratulations. That's a, it's a huge victory for sustainability. how long did that process take? Do you, can you answer that? Or do you know,

Skye Oudemans: 9:19

I think. We can double check on the press release, but I think it was five years for this project.

Cory Connors: 9:25

Incredible. Yeah. And I don't know if you know this, but I recently saw some videos, of people that are reusing Pringles cans for drinks. And I thought that was really, an innovative idea, it's, so, yeah, it's already got some salt and flavoring in there. You can put some drinks in there and make it delicious. It's an, even got a lid, it

Skye Oudemans: 9:47

has the lid. That's the thing. It's, and we can touch on this more, but what's really interesting about packaging is that it's designed to protect.

Cory Connors: 9:56

Whether

Skye Oudemans: 9:57

it's chips or a TV or a pair of sneakers, it's about protecting what's inside it and about, if we talk about sustainability, about protecting all of the embedded, carbon and water and resources that are in the product itself. and that's why it's so important to get the packaging right. Both in terms of kind of design and functionality, but also, in terms of what barrier properties does it need, and how does it interact with your product?

Cory Connors: 10:27

Yeah, we often say there's nothing sustainable about rotten food, and I think that's it. we have to packaging must perform packaging must do its job and provide that value to the consumer, no matter where they live in the world, on it could be on an island somewhere, and they need packaging that can last on a boat for several months to get to them because they can't manufacture food where they live, or, We have to be understanding of that. Not everybody lives in New York City and has everything available to them. so what you're doing there at Pringles to continue to make products that can, can be sustainable for a long time is very valuable. what other things is, Sonoco, that you're excited about?

Skye Oudemans: 11:13

So I think Sunoco is doing a lot in this space. the interest, I think there's a lot of interest in paper based solutions, paper based packaging. So, for example, we talked about this, the Pringles tube. we have another, product that we call our green can, which is actually our highest, paper content. and that can be, it doesn't, It has a range of barrier properties, so the Pringles tube is the absolute, very high barrier properties, depending on the product you need to put inside, how long it will last, how consumers use it. Our green can offer a range of barrier properties as well, with that very high paper content, for some really good recyclability. and then the other one we have that's really interesting is called our Sonopost. It's a corner post. for white goods, appliances, for transport packaging.

Cory Connors: 12:07

So it's

Skye Oudemans: 12:07

made from recycled paperboard from our mills. and it can be part of, replacing, plastic EPS in those kinds of transport packaging solutions as well.

Cory Connors: 12:20

Now for the audience, what's EPS stand for?

Skye Oudemans: 12:23

Sorry. So, EPS expanded polystyrene. and it's a product that. a lot of, there's a lot of attention being paid to expanded polystyrene because of its behavior, but it has, it's very light and it has very strong protective qualities, so it has to be replaced by the right alternative. And that's why we've been interested to work on this project.

Cory Connors: 12:47

Well said, and EPS has, has taken a very serious hit in the, EPR laws, extended producer responsibility laws, are often calling out EPS as a, a material that won't be acceptable, moving forward. So, that's very exciting that you have an alternative to that, that is acceptable, and that is curbside recyclable, fiber based, yeah. Fiber based

Skye Oudemans: 13:09

and made from recycled paperboard. So as part of that, that circular economy, and coming from the renewable resource as well. So there's a number of aspects that we think make it really interesting. And

Cory Connors: 13:21

it has to be, it has to be circular, right? We have to figure out ways to use the waste, use the material that comes back in the garbage, in the, recycle bin and, or the post industrial waste that, maybe. Would have gone to landfill, 20 years ago. so that's exciting what you're doing and well done. I'd like to talk a little bit more broadly about the industry. is there a trend that you see that you're really, excited to see, in the sustainable packaging industry?

Skye Oudemans: 13:52

I think what I'm most excited about right now is. There's so much going on. We've just touched on, the UK, the US, the EU and the member states. but there's also work being done, at the UN level, they're talking about a global plastics treaty. and then, so there's so much going on and it's going to have quite a significant impact for business in terms of the amount of data they collect, the information they share back and forth, but equally We're also seeing some of the issues there. For example, the EU is working on a green claims directive. Looking at how green claims are substantiated. and I think all of this work is going to have to coalesce. Around both priorities. And what success looks like, but also around the kind of the measure. Of it, thinking of, for example, a life cycle analysis and it's so valuable on such an interesting approach, but you can really quickly run into issues of comparability, depending on the boundaries, you set the assumptions, you make the data you use. so I think there's a. There's a technical aspect to this, but like you mentioned as well, as someone living on an island, we need this work to take into account the variety of experiences, economic, geographic, cultural, because we talk about, an environmental impact, but that can be very broad, very different, and we want it to be fair and functional. and so I think there's a lot of potential there. There's a lot of energy. but it's also going to be an enormous amount of work, for all of us to be doing on this.

Cory Connors: 15:38

Yeah, I love that you mentioned data. one of our sponsors, spec right. And, it's a great partner for people to reach out to if they're ready to be able to analyze and use their data to, for reporting, which they'll have to be able to, very soon if they're not already for scope reporting and, all of those details with EPR. but you mentioned, Sustainability being different for where you live. And, I interviewed my friend, Sean Drew from South Africa, and he said, Corey, sustainability is really a luxury. And, I think that's really important for us in the packaging industry to understand that we need to make this very simple and very easy, and very, attainable for everyone all over the world. so important to think about that too.

Skye Oudemans: 16:28

Absolutely. And I think that's why the question of what are the priorities and what does success look like? Is so important and getting everyone to agree and to be pulling in the same direction because exactly. Otherwise, you run into challenges and people, this can't be a priority for me right now. I have other priorities I have other, or emergency to deal with, but I think as much as possible if there can be a. Clear direction and to avoid that fragmentation as well, because that fragmentation as confusion for consumers. it adds confusion for business. It can add enormous. financial and administrative burdens at each level of the chain, and I think that's a risk we're seeing right now is what is the cost of these successive, reporting requirements, transparency requirements, EPR requirements. I think the intentions are good, but we need to get that alignment.

Cory Connors: 17:28

Yeah, well said. And this wasn't on my list of questions, but I'm excited to talk to you about London Packaging Week. I feel like, and I want to get your opinion on that, going to events like London Packaging Week is very valuable. to learn about the latest and greatest, will you be entering their awards for any of your innovations? And can you tell us about that yet?

Skye Oudemans: 17:55

I'm not 100 sure about the awards, but I know that

Cory Connors: 17:59

my

Skye Oudemans: 17:59

team Is working very hard to essentially highlight this new Pringles tube. Paperbottom Pringles tube, and the work and the innovation that went into that, with ourselves and New Caledonova. I'm planning to be at London Packaging Week. I think these types of events are so important, like you said, to see what's going on. To see the latest and greatest, to see the scaling up that happens. but equally for that. Really connection, because I'm the sustainability manager based in Manchester. a lot of my colleagues within Sunoco are in different places, different countries. So the time I get to meet my counterparts in different companies, in trade associations and government, and we get to sit down and have a chat and connect about everything that's going on, that's really valuable as well.

Cory Connors: 18:50

I agree a hundred percent. We, and that's why these shows are so valuable. is that connection and that interaction and that, whoa, I didn't know about that yet. that's amazing. Or what did you hear about what they're doing? That's impressive. And this seems to be a very collaborative industry. even though we're competing, in many ways, we're also supporting each other to help the environment and improve.

Skye Oudemans: 19:17

Absolutely. And I think that we touched on that a minute ago. we're facing a challenge here, and I think it's really enabled a lot of that collaboration and even discussions about, I see this particular challenge this way because of my business and how we're structured and what we do, what does it look like from where you're sitting? And is there a way to bridge that? Because we see this a lot within the Within some of the meetings I'm in, there's a range of challenges and a range of ways they need to be addressed depending on.

Cory Connors: 19:50

Absolutely. Everybody has their own perspective in life and their own, situation. Yeah, that's an important point. Well, thank you so much, Sky. How do people get in touch with you and Sonoko?

Skye Oudemans: 20:03

so, I'm on LinkedIn. You'll be able to find me there. Sonoko is, also has a page on LinkedIn and we recently, I want to say this week published our 2023 Corporate Responsibility Report, which will also be posted up there and has some good information about what we're doing, a lot of our sustainability developments and our latest results there.

Cory Connors: 20:26

Great. Well, thank you so much, Skye. This has been great. I appreciate it. And looking forward to seeing you in London.

Skye Oudemans: 20:32

Yeah, absolutely.