From Chaos to Order: Tips from a Decluttering Pro on Hoarding and Maintaining Your Association’s Records

Are you struggling with a hoarder in your association and need practical advice? Do your Association’s books and records need some attention now that new laws in Florida require them to be kept in an "organized fashion"? Tune in to "Take it to the Board" with Donna DiMaggio Berger as she unpacks these issues with a seasoned pro in organizing-Brenda Borenstein from Organized Zone.

Donna and Brenda explore effective organizing principles such as thinking vertically and sorting by category. They also address the mental health challenges associated with hoarding and the critical role of legal counsel in ensuring compliance with governing documents. Brenda shares her insights on identifying and sensitively addressing hoarding issues that disrupt community life, from crammed units to stuffed garages and storage units all of which can create severe health and safety risks for the homeowner and neighboring units/homes as well. Brenda provides a strategic approach to tackle emotionally charged tasks, such as cleaning out a family member’s home after they pass away. Discover how tools like Google Lens can help identify valuable items and learn about using auctions to offset cleanup costs.  They also address the sensitive topic of transitioning elderly parents to safer living environments and overcoming their resistance to change. Additionally, they tackle the challenges of downsizing and organizing living spaces when moving from larger homes to smaller, more manageable ones. They offer practical tips on selecting meaningful items to create a comfortable new environment while minimizing trauma for the client.

Tune in to learn how upping your organizational game can significantly reduce stress and enhance productivity.

 Conversation highlights include:

• The process of organization from start to finish
• Hoarding vs. collecting or being disorganized
• Common signs someone might be a hoarder
• Tips for the association board or manager to approach residents suspected of hoarding
• Successful strategies or interventions implemented in hoarding situations
• Brenda’s philosophy on getting organized

BONUS: Find out how Brenda hosts regular dinners for 20 guests in her 850 sq. foot home!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Hi everyone, I'm attorney Donna DiMaggio-Berger and this is Take it to the Board where we speak condo and HOA. Has your HOA ever grappled with the problem of owners violating the park your second car in your garage rule because their garages are stuffed with so many things that it is impossible to park a vehicle inside it? Is your condominium or cooperative association coping with a resident whose unit is so crammed with garbage, food and other items that pests, smells and other unsanitary conditions have become a life safety issue for that resident and the neighboring units? Today's episode might help you understand how hoarding happens and what can be done to start the cleanup process.

Speaker 1: 0:43

As someone who has been compared by friends and family to the character Monica from Friends, nothing helps me to de-stress like a good cleaning session, which is why I'm so excited to speak to my guest today, brenda Borenstein, about some key organizing principles and also address the terrible problem of hoarding we see in far too many community associations. Brenda is the owner of Organized Zone, a home and office decluttering and organizing service in Ontario, canada, with over 23 years of experience. Through her passion for transforming spaces and lives, brenda has helped over 2,000 individuals achieve a sense of calm and order in their environments. She is a respected writer, having contributed to various publications, and has been featured on television shows for her expertise in organization. So, brenda, welcome to Take it to the Board, oh thank you, I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:33

And I'm going to say for our audience I met Brenda years ago, my family and I, on a wonderful cruise to Alaska. Remember that was quite the experience. Have you been back?

Speaker 2: 1:43

to Alaska since then? I have, and that one was very memorable. Have you been back to Alaska since then? I have, and that one was very memorable. So I remember it well and I remember you well and your family and it was a good experience, do you remember it was?

Speaker 1: 1:53

it was warm, though, in Alaska, and that was also, I believe. We were in Alaska the week that Sarah Palin resigned as governor.

Speaker 2: 2:01

Yeah, I also remember it was warm because in Alaska they don't have air conditioning and when we went to the port they couldn't believe how hot it was and they didn't have air conditioning in any of the stores.

Speaker 1: 2:12

You know what I remember? I remember because it was around the time of my husband's birthday in June and we paid for a special trip to Admiralty Island, where the bears are supposed to be more bears per square mile than anywhere else in the continental United States, and we didn't see a single bear because it was too warm and they were all hiding in the forest.

Speaker 2: 2:32

I think I went snowshoe or snow what is a dog laying? And there was no snow, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:38

I think it's time for us to go back to Alaska.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Because it was.

Speaker 1: 2:42

it was an atypical experience, but we're here to talk about what you do best, which is getting people organized. So one of the first questions I wanted to ask is who's your client who normally contacts you? Is it the person who has a problem being organized, or is it a loved one or a family member or a coworker, somebody else who's contacting you to get somebody organized?

Speaker 2: 3:11

So it's both. It can be either, or so sometimes if they're older people and they're not on the internet, they'll have their realtor try and find help and then they'll contact me. So people who aren't savvy on the computer or something like that, they'll have a friend, try and contact me, and so it happens both ways.

Speaker 1: 3:26

So obviously, if somebody's contacted you directly, they know that they have an issue that they need help with. But let's say it's not. Let's say it's a family member and it's an older person who's living in a multifamily building. Family member has gone over and they've seen that the unit, the home, is really run down, it's cluttered, it needs some help. How do you convince the person who owns the unit that the decluttering process is not going to be painful?

Speaker 2: 3:53

Well, first of all, there has to be a reason why they're calling. So are they moving? Is it a fire hazard? So we need to establish the reason why first. If it's just because their aunt doesn't like their place being messy or cluttered, that's not going to be a good enough reason. So we have to like decide is it a health issue? Are they not able to function? Is it not clean? Can they not shower or eat? You know where does the problem lie and then we can address like solutions to get them to move forward.

Speaker 1: 4:29

So let's say it is a person who is over time, has aged in place. We see this in a lot of our communities, brenda. Maybe somebody moved in in their 40s and 50s. They're now in their 80s or 90s. Essentially they do not. They have a very insular existence. They may not have any local family members, their friend group may have dwindled over the years as well, and the way an association becomes aware that there's a problem is normally smells or pests. So they're either seeing that the neighboring units are being infested with pests and they believe it's coming from this particular unit, or the smells, or sometimes it's.

Speaker 1: 5:10

You know, the exterminator goes in to perform services and or somebody else has entered the unit and has reported the condition of the unit and it's at a point where it really is, let's say, a health issue, a potential life safety issue. Health issue, a potential life safety issue. In some of the worst case scenarios I've seen just a narrow corridor between stacks of stuff to get in and out of the unit, which is obviously in the event of a fire or other emergency, could pose a huge problem for the occupant of that unit. So, assuming that's the case, let's use that as our base example. You get called in. Can you walk us through your process of first what you would do first? You go out to this unit and it's just cramped. What do you do, right?

Speaker 2: 5:49

So so well. First I want to say, just from what you're talking about, so it's not only that unit, if we're talking about a condo or an apartment, so the smell, so it's affecting next door. It could be that they have bugs now seeping in the hallway or, you know, when this person goes into the elevator there's she has contaminants on whatever parcel she's taking down, like it really can spread to the whole building. So it's now like a really large problem. So, and it's it's difficult to bring in an organizer at this point because it's almost like they're attached to this stuff.

Speaker 2: 6:24

Whatever the issue is maybe it's a mental health issue, maybe it's a physical health issue there is obviously a big problem. And so when we're called in and they say, well, you know they have until the 31st to clear out everything because we can't change the air conditioner or the sprinklers or whatever, it is like for us as professional organizers the best thing for us is like if the management was to get them a hotel and we could clear it out. To have to fight with someone who has mental health issues or challenges with this stuff, about this paper or this pile, it's very difficult for us to do the physical part and we don't have the time and we're not doctors or psychologists to have to deal with them about like this, maybe this issue that's been with them for years and years and years. But here we have, like you know, it's a fire.

Speaker 2: 7:19

We got to get them out, we got to clear everything out, and so it's a long process, but the urgency is now. So it's a big contradiction of how we have to treat them and it's like they're hostile if we have to go in there and say, well, this isn't acceptable, we have to do this now to clear the pathways. We have to bring in junk removal or recycling. It's a challenge, but it's easier if they are extracted from the situation and then we can do things like pack up, sort it and put it into storage, get it sprayed. Whatever the issues are, it's the hoard itself and the hoarder. They're two separate issues.

Speaker 1: 8:01

So that makes sense to me. So of course it's going to be easier if you don't have somebody looking over your shoulder, following you around, saying you can't get rid of that, you can't get rid of this. Assuming that an association or, let's say, even a loved one, could ask the person to kind of leave the premises for a few days so you could do your job, would you use any sort of a questionnaire to ask what they can't part with? Because one of the questions I had for you is how can you tell the difference of a hoarding situation versus somebody who's an avid collector? I, brenda, I collect old newspapers and all these stacks, you see, is my collection.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Right. So I'm working with a man now. He's 88 years old, he, he's absolutely brilliant and he's with his wife with dementia and we're clearing out a whole house and it's a lifelong and he's, he's, he's been on the radio, he's just such a great guy and and he's, he's so, uh, knowledgeable about everything and everything is neat and orderly. I've already had an auction for him now for 400 items, and now I'm doing another auction. That was the outer property, now the inner property, the same and the realtor, you know, contacted me and said it's a tip, brenda. You know it's like completely full and I'm thinking it's a hoarder's, but it wasn't a hoarder situation. He is a collector. Everything has a place and a purpose. It's organized, it's just full, and a hoarder has things that they don't use or need or they don't even get pleasure from. It's just filling a void, it's an attachment of something that is really not useful.

Speaker 1: 9:38

Can that include food items? Because in some of the situations we see, brenda, there's just rotten food on the counters in the fridge. Have you seen that situation?

Speaker 2: 9:51

I think I've seen it all, donna, to be quite honest. And so when we're talking about the stuff on the counter, some people don't have that skill Right to separate, to sort. They don't have the physical ability, there's no room to move, they don't know what to do. First, I've worked with a lot of hoarders that and I'm going to say this in past tense so they were hoarders and their place was hoarded, and then they had help mental, they saw a counselor, whatever it is. Their issue was solved. Maybe they were addicts, and now they're clean.

Speaker 2: 10:28

Now they don't want to live in this situation. Then they're so happy to have my service to clear the space, because they don't have the know-how. They know that they don't want to live like that and then we're able to, you know, clear things out. But if they're not in a healthy mental state, it's difficult to work with people like that and I feel my I just try to be kind with them because they can't help it. Their situation it's like high anxiety for them and when they have a stranger come in it's even worse. So it's always best, of course, for us if they've had some you know outside assistance for their mental well-being.

Speaker 1: 11:09

First, Do you ever work hand in hand with the mental health professionals that maybe the family has called in as well?

Speaker 2: 11:18

I have. Again, they're not used to my job. I may not know their job and they don't know my job. They may know the textbook terms and all the different associations, but when they're not in there clearing it and working with them hand on and that is a skill that they don't have because they haven't worked in that environment I would love to work with them, that they would come into the space, but it would be much slower because, again, we're called in when it's an emergency situation where it's not safe for them or the neighbor, or it could be a variety of things.

Speaker 2: 11:56

But we have to make it fast for them. They're not calling us for like a slow transition that I can spend an hour and help them collect newspapers or, you know, make a pathway without doing much. They have a limited amount of time. When you do like, when you're working with a doctor, it's an hour a day or an hour a week, we're in there with a team to clear it out, and so it's two different situations. You know situations to work with a doctor and to work with us.

Speaker 1: 12:27

So tell me about your team. So you've gotten the hoarder has left for the weekend. You guys go in. I assume you're going in with giant garbage bags or bins and gloves. I mean, I'm assuming you're not going in with hazmat suits. But walk us through the process.

Speaker 2: 12:42

Well, I have gone in in a hazmat suit, so that is true, but it's always with the plan, and so and I always want the client to be involved and they have to have a say about it If it's something like you know, they were a hoarder and now it's deceased then I'm working for the kids or the family and I say, okay, well, let's sort everything out, let's see what we could put on auction, let's see what's donatable. And they may say, you know, the real money is, brenda, that we have to put the house up for sale by Friday and no one is living in the house. Then I'm able to strategically, with my team, execute a plan and I'd like to speak to the clients to find out what's important to them If they've passed away. Then we can just go through everything and sort it out with my team and execute the plan.

Speaker 2: 13:32

I can bring in junk removal, I can move things to storage and we find out really what the family wants and what they need, and then everything else is just like staged for putting it up for sale or it can just everything can just go into the garbage, you know, and recycled and just donation and we can clear out anything. It's just the hardest part is the emotion. So if there is emotion involved, then it slows down my team and myself, because then we have to deal with you why they're keeping it or make alternative arrangements for stuff. If there's things that are valuable, we will put them aside. If they're reusable for people, we'll put them aside. But our goal is, you know, the big ticket item is to sell the property for the client. So is is to get the house ready without the contents.

Speaker 1: 14:24

You mentioned junk removal, brenda, so you know those the reality shows about. I found this old thing in the barn and they bring it in and it's worth twenty five thousand dollars. Nobody knew they thought it was junk. It almost got thrown out. How do you make that decision as to what's I mean sometimes something's, it's obvious it's junk, right, if it's. You know something that's broken or you know an old food item, it's junk. But how do you determine if something's truly junk if you're not quite sure what it is?

Speaker 2: 14:54

Okay, so I use Google Lens and Google Lens is amazing and so I'll take a picture and I might think it's junk, and I have a lot of experience with a lot of things but Google Lens tells me what it is, it identifies the object and we know right away if it is junk or not.

Speaker 1: 15:13

Well, okay, I learned something new. I learned something new Google Lens will do that. Okay, I had never used that before. That's pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 15:20

Yeah, well, a lot of the stuff that we do is we have auctions for our clients with the excess stuff. They don't want it going to garbage, they want to know who it's going to. So we'll categorize everything and we'll create an auction for them. And oftentimes I don't know what this is, and so I will go on Google Lens and identify what the item is and catalog it for them.

Speaker 1: 15:46

So Google Lens will tell you what it is. It won't tell you what it's worth. So then you have to reach out to what an auctioneer to find out what it's worth no.

Speaker 2: 15:54

So Google Lens will identify the item and it will also show me that it's selling on Etsy, and it's also showing that it's selling on eBay and all the prices, and so it immediately, in five seconds or less, I'll know all that information and have a description to do our own auction. Wow.

Speaker 1: 16:14

So tell me about your pricing. So you're going in, let's say it's a three bedroom condo unit and it's crammed, and how do you price? Is it based on square footage, or? And how do you price? Is it based on square footage or?

Speaker 2: 16:26

It's based on time, so it's much faster. If we don't have a decision maker there, if I don't have someone who's attached to the items, then we can move quickly, then I can assess the situation. But if there's a person and they don't care how much, how long it's going to take and they want to do it their way, it's going to be more expensive. Obviously, our process is always the same we have to sort things out, create a path. We bring in junk removal, we can create, have an auction for them so it will offset their costs, if that's something that makes sense and that's how it is Like. Most organizers charge either by the hour or by the you know the job, or the day, or something like that.

Speaker 1: 17:10

What's the standard hourly range? Can you tell us that?

Speaker 2: 17:14

Yeah well, I think it's anywhere from 75 to 150 dollars an hour for an organizer. I think that's the growth, the going rate.

Speaker 1: 17:24

So let's take a step back. We talked about worst case scenario. Somebody has passed away and you need to clean out the unit for the heirs and put it up for sale. I'm dealing with elderly parents. My dad's going to be 95 on August 1st, my mom's 91. My mother-in-law is also 91. And we want them to think about some different housing options, or maybe even just staying where they are, but maybe assessing their, their current housing options for safety, and they are very opposed to this. I'm sure you hear this all the time. But elderly people who are like I can't possibly move. Where am I going to go with all my stuff? I assume you help people transitioning from single family homeownership or you know they live in a condo moving into a community that can help them. Is that a significant portion of your clientele as well People making those transitions?

Speaker 2: 18:14

Absolutely. And you know, I have a father who's 88 years old and when he was and he's not well, he has dementia and when he was able to make decisions for himself he did not want to move, and so we haven't moved him, and those were his wishes, and so I certainly understand that from a personal aspect. But many of my clients are downsizing from a big home and they're going into independent living or other, and so it's a blank slate usually, or they have furniture. So if they have furniture in there, then we're just taking their personal things, their clothes and their you know toiletries and you know a couple of pictures of their family and that's it.

Speaker 2: 18:57

But oftentimes the suites here in Canada are it's like a one or two bedroom place. They have a kitchenette but they don't eat in the kitchenette, and so we have a kitchenette but they don't eat in the kitchenette, and so we have a floor plan. So we pick their favorite dresser and we pick their bed and their side table and the couch, if it works, and we take their clothes and we try to settle them in to the space and not have them go back to the house, and then we deal with the rest of the stuff in the house without them, so it's less traumatic for them.

Speaker 1: 19:26

Oh, that makes sense. That really does. I want to talk to you about the stigma. There is a stigma attached to messy homes, is there not? You walk in somebody's house and there's a pile of laundry in the middle of the family room you might have that might leave an impression on you. So let me ask you is there a stigma Do you agree attached to messy living quarters?

Speaker 2: 19:47

Well, I think there's a stigma, but I go in without judgment because this is all I see. And when I'm on the phone with them and I arrange to go to their house, I say don't clean up for me, and I'm not going there for tea. I'm not there to judge, I'm there to help them. I feel like grateful that they're coming for help, because there's so many people I think it's like two to six percent of the population are have hoarding tendencies and it's a, you know, a real mental health issue that it's just so terrible if they don't have help or family to help them. And so if they have the you know, energy to call me in and you know, oftentimes they're embarrassed I'm not there to judge, I'm there to see the potential of the space so we can make a difference for them. And they just don't have the know-how, the physical ability, whatever it is ability, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: 20:44

I am in total agreement with you in terms of trying not to judge when it goes, when it's about how somebody chooses to live. Unfortunately, in a multifamily building, as we've learned, that can spread to the common areas, to neighboring units, so it does become an issue that often the association has to involve itself in. Now, when we're dealing with storage units and garages, I think people are used to seeing really crammed storage units and garages. Have you been asked to organize those spaces?

Speaker 2: 21:20

Oh, like so often, because the storage facility business is, you know, crazy in Canada and you know they have this, they have stuff that they think it's valuable and then they pay $300 or $400. They're lifers right. Every month they're paying that. And then we go in and oftentimes when I'm in storage lockers which is often I see that the management now owns the building. They've died or they haven't paid for three months and now they own it. And then everything in the locker goes for auction and they sell everything and they have those shows, storage wars or whatever they do, and they get rid of the excess stuff and sometimes there's treasures in there and oftentimes there's not. You know, excess stuff and sometimes there's treasures in there and oftentimes there's not. And so what we'd like to do when I go in and try to help my clients you know I just filled up a storage locker. You know, the last week or so with my client who is renovating her house and in a renovate and in a rental and everything you know went into this storage unit and we we, you know, suggested that she get rid of things before, but she said she didn't want to and three storage lockers later, everything's filled in there and it's going to take us days to sort out to see what's in there and what she wants to sell and what she wants to take, and it's really quite a nightmare and it's so expensive. I just I don't recommend it for long periods of time.

Speaker 2: 22:40

A garage is something else, because it's attached to your house, usually or in your backyard, and so that is easier to to manage, I find, with my clients, because you're right there and you know what's going to go into the house and it's easier to sort it out. But a lot of people get overwhelmed and it's a space that they don't go in often and so they just leave it behind. But for us we just hope for a sunny day, we pull everything out on a tarp, bring our shelves, or. Organizers don't like to think, you know, horizontally, we like to think vertically. So we put shelves in there, we put like, with, like. It's just stuff for us and usually the clients are much easier with. You know a garage because it's less personal.

Speaker 1: 23:27

Although I would imagine that some men are probably very attached to their woodworking equipment and all the little tools and equipment that they you know that they use for their hobbies.

Speaker 2: 23:39

Yeah, so it's really not a matter of getting rid of those things, the tools and all of that. It's just there's so much extra junk in there. There's always old tires and paint, cans and boxes and you know things that they were going to deal with or at one time might've been useful or important, but as time goes on they become less and less important to them.

Speaker 1: 24:01

So what are some just key organizing principles for all of us? Let's say we're not hoarders. Let's say we're doing an okay job of organizing our living spaces, our workspaces, our storage spaces. What are some key principles?

Speaker 2: 24:17

Well, for myself, I like to say you know, think before you do so. It's not about turning on music and you know, and rubbing your hands together. Let's start. It's about thinking about what you want the space to be and what do you need in the space, and then how would it function? So, and then, by thinking about those things and creating a plan, and the plan includes where am I going to put the garbage or the recycling as I'm working? Where are my items going to live? Do I need more shelving? So it's really all about the planning first, and don't tackle more than you could. You know, deal with at a time, start small and and finish what you start. Is it okay if we have a junk?

Speaker 1: 25:03

drawer Brenda.

Speaker 2: 25:04

Do you have a junk drawer? I don't. I don't have. I'm not perfect, I'm far from perfect, and my kitchen's too small to have a junk drawer. I don't have the luxury for that. So anything in my junk drawer has a home and a place elsewhere. For example, my batteries have a place, my extra pens have a place. I don't know business cards. Whatever I find in people's junk drawers, you know if there's a screw, an extra screw or a screwdriver.

Speaker 2: 25:33

I find tons of rubber bands yeah, I like rubber bands in my wrap drawer, so that's where I put them in a Ziploc for my clients. So there is a home and a place for everything that's in the junk drawer. And if you have the luxury of having a junk drawer, then sort it out, get a divider so you will have you know items categorized in there, and so it's a functional junk drawer.

Speaker 1: 25:58

I imagine your pantry. All the spices are labeled. They're neatly stacked. They aren't.

Speaker 2: 26:03

So there you go, they are not. I am a cook, I love it and everything's accessible, but I don't label my spice doors. I live in my kitchen and I have a home and a place for everything, and everything has broad categories, which is less time consuming than having everything from A to Z.

Speaker 1: 26:25

Well, I am happy to know you're mortal when it comes to that. Yeah, I'm a cook as well. Let's talk about recidivism. So how many of your clients have fallen off the wagon? You've got them organized. The place looks great. Do you ever check back in and do any of them come back and say, Brenda, I need your help again?

Speaker 2: 26:45

What I can say is I have repeat clients and so once they know what they can do with a professional, they call us for all different things. So I've had one hoarder cured, fixed. You know, she's on top of her game, but she has, you know, a brother-in-law that needed our help. So it will she'll, you know, say I know the perfect, you know team to help you. Or we've had them.

Speaker 2: 27:11

We've had clients who've called time after time. It could be a couple years later, could be five years later, and it's just because they know that when they were so overwhelmed at that point, who did they call? And they called us. It's not so much of like a situation where, you know, someone was hoarded and then we organized them and then it happened again. If they were well when they had us in, more than likely they're going to continue on that pathway. If we went in there, as a like, while they were forced because management gave them to the end of the month to clear out their space, well, we didn't deal with the problem and the horde is going to continue.

Speaker 1: 27:52

Well, I want to talk to you about that. So, let's say, management knows there's a problem with a particular unit. What would be your recommendation? Talking to all the managers out there right now and all the volunteer board members, what do you think is the most effective way to address the problem?

Speaker 2: 28:09

before you called in Any tips Well, I think I mentioned this before is that to remove the person and put them in. If there is, is funding, to put them in an apartment with their belongings, because they're not going to clear their space on their own, and then, if there are funds, to say that everything will be taken to storage and so that the place could be sprayed or whatever has to be happening can happen. That's what I would recommend, because the client is just going to have like heightened anxiety and we are not going to, unfortunately, have a good result when we're forced, when they don't want to have us in. They don't want anyone touching their stuff. They need mental health. You know supervision, you know assessment. They really need to call in the guns for them so that they can get the help they need.

Speaker 2: 29:05

We're just dealing with the physical stuff. It's very hard to transform a person who is, you know, in high anxiety. Having mental health challenges and then we go in there makes it even worse and have to clear their space while they're in there. There makes it even worse and have to clear their space while they're in there. It's challenging. So if they can get removed into a condo or a safe area and we can take out their stuff, they're still going to have issues because they don't want anyone touching their stuff. It would be great if they're on board, and it's hard to get to that position.

Speaker 1: 29:37

So, for our listeners, I'm going to recommend you always work with association counsel, because in some associations you may have what we call self-help rights under the governing documents, but it's certainly something that you're going to want to talk to counsel about. In terms of advance notice, you can't just book a reservation for Mr Jones at the local motel and clear out his unit. There's going to be a legal process involved with that. So, speaking of legal process, in Florida, brenda, we just had a law passed I think the governor signed it last week and that requires associations to organize their governing documents.

Speaker 1: 30:10

So remember I mentioned that junk drawer. Well, in a lot of associations over the years, they accumulate all sorts of documents so screening documents for people who are buying or renting in the community, people who may be requesting emotional support, animals Of course they're governing documents, contracts, insurance policies, bids, you name it that you don't just throw all those things in an association office and when somebody comes by and wants to review them you say, well, go have at it, and they're looking at a hoarding situation just with association documents. So I'm wondering have you ever just organized documents in a workplace?

Speaker 2: 30:53

Yeah, so we call that paper management and so we're not afraid of the paper, and so we would ask a lot of different questions as we go through. And if it is not online and they actually have hard papers and I'm assuming that's what you're referring to I like the binder situation where we have a three ring binder, you know, wide, so as wide as you can get, and each one of the categories are either by number, alphabetically, by date, whatever it is, and so that anybody walking in could find it, and so I I don't like um for a situation like that. I don't like it in a, in a filing cabinet or anything like that. I find that if we have a library of binders of all these documents, that's the best way to have it, so that everybody coming in can see it. Most people are visual and so when we file it in a filing door it becomes very overwhelming for people.

Speaker 1: 31:51

Ideally, associations would be digitizing, scanning and uploading their documents to a website, but many, many of them, brenda, still have it in you know, the paper form and, like you said, it's hard to find things. They also have to segregate privileged and confidential information. So I like your three-ring binder of you know and label it privileged and confidential so you know immediately during the inspection process what needs to be segregated from the rest of the documentation.

Speaker 2: 32:22

Right. I think that's an easy system for people to follow and it has to be for everyone to follow. And so by having to file it in a drawer or look for it at a site out of mind, it becomes very difficult. And I would always suggest to any office if it's not organized, bring in a professional to organize it, to create a system that everyone can follow easy, just like a nursery school. You know there's a home and a place for everything. It doesn't matter what it is, it's the same for papers, legal documents too, and so you know everybody is on board. Were you neat as a kid? Were you organized as a child? No, I wasn't, and I had a lot of things and I had a small room with not sufficient cupboards. And I'm I've always been into puzzles, I'm always a thinker and I like to figure out the best systems in the best way for efficiency. That's just how I am. I wasn't neat, like a librarian or anything like that, but I think in a very logical way.

Speaker 1: 33:28

I think we evolve, though. I mean, I think I was very messy as a teenager and now, as I said in the introduction, I'm like Monica from Friends. I'm the same way. I'm very organized with all my stuff, everything has a place, and when I do like to de-stress, I do it by organizing even further.

Speaker 2: 33:48

So I think we do evolve. It's a great feeling. It's a great feeling to accomplish things, to get up and just to do things and not be weighed down by anxiety. But there's so many people in hoarding situations or if they want to get organized, that they procrastinate because for whatever reason. So it's just you know that five, three, two, one go. That's what I like to do, whatever it is, and just jump into it like to do whatever it is and just jump into it.

Speaker 1: 34:22

Well, that's a perfect segue, because Benjamin Franklin once famously said for every minute spent in organizing, an hour is earned. And then, of course, for a more recent reference, we've got Marie Kondo, and her method of organizing is declutter your homes by keeping only the things that spark joy. So I want to ask Brenda Borenstein what is your philosophy?

Speaker 2: 34:40

So my philosophy is really, when I'm speaking to someone, I'm promoting finding your underwear and getting a cup of tea. I just want things simple for my clients. It doesn't have to be, you know, the most organized space, it just has to function. I just want them to be able to live in an easy way so they could cook, so they can bathe themselves, so they know what they're wearing, so they can have their friends over or their family. Just easy living, a home and a place for everything.

Speaker 1: 35:25

It doesn't have to be to the 10th degree organized, but it has to be functional and just having what they need and what they use on a daily basis accessible. You mentioned having a smaller kitchen and, as a result, you function a little bit differently in that space. Do we just have too much stuff in our spaces too large?

Speaker 2: 35:36

I've worked in so many huge homes. You know 12,000 square foot homes. I live in an 850 square foot home. I entertain 20 people, you know, every Friday night at my house very easily, and so it's just about, and I have lots of platters and I'm organized. I have what I need. I think a lot of people, me included, have too much. You know I've got too many clothes I've got. You know, as a woman, I've got my skinny clothes and I've got my fat clothes and I've got my stuff in between. And many of my clients are the same and I mean I get rid of stuff all the time. I am not a shopper anymore. I think initially, when I started my business in 2001, I used to like to shop. It was fun for me, a pastime. The thought of it just makes me sick because everybody has so much stuff and I get rid of stuff for a living. So it's just whether they call it fast fashion or like, really, what do you need? What else do you need that you don't have? So that's my thinking on that.

Speaker 1: 36:41

I had a feeling you were going to say that, seeing the excess that you have over the course of your career, I had a feeling that your response was going to be we've got too much stuff. Fashion in particular. You're right about fast fashion. I know a lot of like even my daughter's generation. They're doing a lot of vintage, where they're not buying new stuff but they are, you know, delving into vintage.

Speaker 2: 37:04

Yeah, well, I think it's funny about those stores. I know they're very, very popular and you know I advise people not to shop in them because I see where the stuff comes from. So I'm just saying the truth here that I just wouldn't go into them because I really have seen where a lot of that stuff comes from. So just wash your stuff from those stores before you wear them, friends.

Speaker 1: 37:31

You heard it here. Wow, okay, that's another point number two, that really made an impression. So, brenda, where can people find you too?

Speaker 2: 37:40

that really made an impression. So, brenda, where can people find you? They can find me on my from my website or on Instagram at organizedzonecom. They can look me up, brenda Bornstein, at organizedzonecom.

Speaker 1: 37:50

Brenda, thanks so much for being with us today. I think you gave so many great tips.

Speaker 2: 37:55

Thank you, very nice seeing you again, donna, you too.

Speaker 1: 37:59

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