Ep.178: An End To An Upside Down World (feat. Mark Gober)

Ep.178: An End To An Upside Down World (feat. Mark Gober)

I think for most of us that have found our way into the world of psychedelic medicines in the present day, that we can agree that pretty much everything in life is upside down when viewed through the lens of the mainstream narrative. From our thinking, to our approach to medicine, consciousness & more, it’s truly a time in which discernment is the ultimate muscle to wield as without it, we can easily be led astray into the distortions that are being cast into society from individuals that are flowing against the tides of life, rather than with them. In todays episode, I got the chance to dive in with one of the most brilliant individuals I have had the pleasure of connecting with recently & along with being an author of 5 incredible books that depict exactly how our world is currently backwards, todays guest is someone who is motivated & committed to allowing people to break out of the matrix, tune back into the psychedelic nature of reality & ultimately become the victor of their life’s story, rather than the victim. This episode is sure to be one that opens your eyes to an alternative perspective of reality that has the capability to allow you to see through the illusions that have been cast upon our society at large & that will allow you to make more informed choices as a result of having more data & facts to pull from. 

This episode was produced by Mazel Tov Media in Quincy, Massachusetts. 

Join us on September 17th from 7pm-9:30pm EST!

https://www.highlyoptimized.me

Chapters

• 12:16 Navigating Truth and Awakening Awareness
• 22:59 Virus Isolation Debate and AI Confrontation
• 30:22 Decentralization, Discernment, and AI Impacts
• 36:20 Rethinking Science and Virus Causation
• 46:12 Energetic Influence and Scientific Method
• 56:00 Building a New Conscious Community
• 59:58 Harnessing Love and Truth Frequency
• 1:03:18 The Path to Ascension
• 1:10:31 Exploring Consciousness and Discernment
• 1:14:05 Where to reach Mark!
• 1:14:43 Advice for the listeners!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:19

Thank you. Medicines and the impact they've made among the countless psychonauts exploring the last true frontier. Buy a ticket and take the ride with me as we get true first-hand accounts of the experiences, benefits, risks and transformations taking place within the ever-expanding world of psychedelic medicines. On this One Time, on Psychedelics, I think for most of us that have found our way into the world of psychedelic medicines in the present day that we can agree that pretty much everything in life is upside down when viewed through the lens of the mainstream narrative, from our thinking to our approach to medicine, consciousness and more. It's truly a time in which discernment is the ultimate muscle to wield, as without it, we can easily be led astray into the distortions that are being cast into society from individuals that are flowing against the tides of life rather than with them. In today's episode, I got the chance to dive in with one of the most brilliant individuals I have had the pleasure of connecting with recently, and along with being an author of five incredible books that depict exactly how our world is currently backwards. Today's guest is someone who is motivated and committed to allowing people to break out of the matrix, tune back into the psychedelic nature of reality and ultimately become the victor of their life story rather than the victim. This episode is sure to be one that opens your eyes to an alternative perspective or reality, that has the capability to allow you to see through the illusions that have been cast upon our society at large and that will allow you to make more informed choices as a result of having more data and facts to pull from. So please give me a big old hand and welcome in my man, mark Gober, onto the show. Mark Gober, my man, I am so excited to be here with you. You know, as I said in the intro to all you listeners, mark and I got to kind of meet at Confluence and you know some other places, but I connected with you a lot after and I've just absolutely loved you as a soul, brother, man. The work you're doing in the world is so necessary right now and, as a side note, I love the AI prompts that you give. I don't even know if that's chat GPT We'll get into that later.

Speaker 1: 2:30

I won't spoil a surprise, but you know to really kind of start at a ground level to give some context here. You know, like I said in the intro, obviously the way you look at reality is very different. With your collections of books and upside down thinking and upside of medicine, all the rest of them it's clear that you see things different than a lot of people do Not better, worse, et cetera, but just different, right, in a very similar way. That I see them and how I would personally describe that is that you're living in a psychedelic reality, right? You're seeing things that a lot of people do not see.

Speaker 1: 3:02

You're asking questions that a lot of people do not ask, and what I'm really curious, man, is how did that first begin? Was it actually like psychedelic medicines that catalyzed you, starting to see behind the lines? Was it just something that took place in life that continued to evolve? What did that journey really look like for you and how did you get to be the person you are today? You know the change maker, the person that is really seeing society differently and doing something about it.

Speaker 2: 3:24

Well, first, ryan, it's awesome to connect with you again, looking forward to this chat, and for me, the big shift was in 2016. And prior to that, I had a very conventional way of living life. In hindsight, I probably was always a little bit of a different thinker but forced myself into a mainstream way of living because that's just where I was coming from. I mean, for undergrad I went to Princeton University, then I worked in investment banking in New York, then I worked in Silicon Valley advising technology companies and there's a sort of mold that you have to fit into to be in that world and if you want to succeed in it. And I really cared about succeeding and winning and I was a competitive athlete, like competitive tennis player growing up in college. So I had that mentality of just like I've got to push through and that is not possible to do forever. That's what I can tell you Eventually hit a wall and I hit a wall probably a few years before 2016. And I can maybe trace it even earlier than that where there were some business deals that didn't go the way that I wanted, some things in my personal life that weren't go the way that I wanted, some things in my personal life that weren't going the way that I wanted and, more fundamentally, I had a very nihilistic view of reality, meaning. I thought that science was teaching us we live in a random and meaningless universe, and when I say meaningless, I mean that there's no meaning built into the structure of reality itself and that we can try to rationalize meaning, but we're just making something up. There's nothing underlying it. That was my belief system, and the more I learned about science and was educated and was just in the world, I thought oh yeah, that's how it is, and people who believe in religion or or spirituality in any way? That that's just a superstitious way of looking at life. That's really what I thought.

Speaker 2: 5:02

So 2016 comes around and I'm in this very lost state of being felt like I was a zombie, just going through the motions, didn't know where I was headed in any way of life, and started listening to podcasts. Initially it was a buddy of mine sent me a Tim Ferriss show in early 2016. It was Tim Ferriss interviewing Marc Andreessen, who's a famous venture capitalist, and then I started listening to more to Tim Ferriss and I was like, wow, I can't believe you could just for free listen to these smart people in all these different areas and Tim Ferriss does get into the psychedelic realm. It wasn't something I was interested in exploring personally, but I was curious because I was hearing of all these seemingly miraculous healings people had, psychologically or otherwise. And Tim was talking about sensory deprivation tanks as one thing you could do that wasn't actually taking a substance but it has psychedelic type effect. So I was like, all right, I was living in San Francisco and they had some sensory deprivation tanks. So this is where you float in a tank of salt water and there's so much salt that you, literally your body, will float. If you're just on your, you're laying horizontally and you're in a pod and you can, like turn the lights off. You can have music playing or not, but I prefer to do it just totally silent and no lights.

Speaker 2: 6:11

So I was doing hours of this flotation stuff and then listening to podcasts and then I ended up on a pod listening to a show called extreme health radio where they were talking about psychedelics too, but then other sorts of alternative health things, just other ways of looking at life but ways of treating illness, and people coming up with miraculous healings outside the psychedelic realm. So I was listening to a bunch of those episodes. And then there was an episode with a woman named laura powers. It was just the next one that I hadn't listened to yet from a few months earlier and she started talking about using psychic abilities and energy to heal and actually working with clients and like speaking to spirits and things like that. And it was wild for me to hear that, because my initial reaction wasn't just to say this is complete fraud, but I wasn't sure what was going on and I'm like she sounds way too serious about this and too genuine. She sounds like she's having an actual experience. But is it some kind of delusion? What's going on with this? And at the end of that episode Laura mentioned her own podcast called Healing Powers and I said you know, I'm listening to lots of podcasts anyway.

Speaker 2: 7:09

I have a long drive from San Francisco, where I was living, down to Silicon Valley like lots of traffic, so I had a few hours every day and I just turned on her podcast and there were really short episodes of like person after person that was having this sort of thing of you might call paranormal. I don't love that term anymore because I think paranormal just refers to not understanding reality properly, but it's totally normal if we recontextualize reality, but that you know, and I mean psychic phenomena surviving bodily death afterlife. And these were people she was interviewing who had totally different backgrounds. They were all over the world, they clearly weren't colluding with each other. So just my rational mindset how could it be that they're all coming up with this picture of reality that I've never heard of before? I need to rethink things, and there were probably a few along the way that pushed me more than others. A few things. I heard One that comes to mind right now a man named Paul Davids, a Hollywood producer.

Speaker 2: 8:01

He produced the Transformers and he produced also later in his career a documentary called the Life After Death Project and then wrote a book about this called An Atheist in Heaven, where one of his Hollywood colleagues who was an atheist, said look, I don't believe in an afterlife, but if I die and there is an afterlife, I'll drop you a line. And then Paul started having these crazy experiences and documents them in his book. And what got me with that is that I was a psychology major at Princeton, and so was Paul, and I'm like well, what's going on here? This is kind of weird because we have a similar background. I know what kind of training you had and you're talking about afterlife in a very serious way. And he had one instance in particular where he was at a home by himself and was looking at papers and left his papers and came back and there was wet ink over a few of the words and the words that had been crossed out by the wet ink had meaning related to this guy that had died, his friend, and then he sent the ink to chemistry labs for three years to try to characterize the properties and there were very strange properties of this ink. He had not put the ink there, so things like that.

Speaker 2: 9:01

And I just remember sitting in my chair when I heard some of this and just couldn't move. I said wait, okay, because this is now bringing together the other information I had heard. I have to rethink my whole life. I don't know anyone who's looking at these topics in my network. What am I going to do? So I just started to read lots of books. Then I looked at the science of this and I was just stunned to know that there were peer-reviewed papers in these areas from places like the University of Virginia. There's a division of perceptual studies there where they look at near-death experience, children who have memories of previous lives. These are medical doctors, phds, looking at this sort of thing and other areas too. So that's really how I got started with this, back to 2016, to where we are today, in 2024.

Speaker 2: 9:44

That's really how I got started with this, back to 2016, to where we are today, in 2024. What's happened is, it began with the science of consciousness and then evolved into spiritual awakening, which is my second book, and then evolved into looking at political and economic theory as it relates to the nature of reality. That's the third book and then I looked at contact with non-human intelligence and then I looked at the great reset and then, most recently, medicine and challenging the allopathic model for multiple areas. And the irony here is, you know, like I just was at music and sky and awesome conference in Northern California shout out to Mike winner and the crew for putting that together. It was my first time there, but Mike named my talk there and into upside down everything, and I started the talk by saying it's really interesting because, first of all, I didn't even name my first book myself. I wrote the first book.

Speaker 2: 10:24

It's called An End to Upside Down Thinking, but my publisher was the one who came up with the title and then, as I kept researching, I realized, wow, there's more and more things that are upside down and there's some kind of inversion happening everywhere in society. And I'm sure I haven't gotten to all of them yet. I've done as much as I am able to in these eight years. But that's the real theme. Like there was, there was something very I give credit to my publisher, bill Gladstone, for seeing that. As someone he was in the, he probably foresaw a lot more than I did because I was new to the writing space as someone coming from finance. But there is an upside downness to this world which I know you have really covered in your show and your work, right.

Speaker 1: 11:02

Yeah, dude, I mean Mark, that was fucking epic dude, because there are so many through lines to both of us. I also majored in psychology, was fascinated with the mind and really found that because I had had my own struggles with anxiety, and once I had found cannabis and it helped me through it, I was like, okay, well, if this thing helps, this thing that the doctor said would not help, but then what else am I being maybe not lied to, but maybe just not have the full truth to. And of course, as you go down that road, you realize, oh shit, there's a lot here. And one of the things you mentioned too about the idea of paranormal, right, which is really just like different than normal, is really what that means, you know. So you know, even yesterday, right, I had something happen to me yesterday where I wake up every morning and I plug my router in, right, because I sleep with no, you know, router in.

Speaker 1: 11:52

And I woke up, put the router in as normal, came into my office to start warming up for a workout, go on a bike ride, and I go on my computer, this computer right here, and I'm learning technical analysis right now and a lot of that kind of stuff. So so I was looking up a video on technical analysis for dummies, right, because I've been in a crypto mentorship and looking to learn TA and fundamental analysis and sentimental analysis and all that stuff. So I turn on a video and I'm watching it and I'm about six minutes into it and all of a sudden it just does the load screen. I'm like what the hell? And and so like I see my internet is completely off and I'm hardwired in here, right. So I'm like that's weird. So I go into my bedroom and I see that the thing's unplugged and I'm like what the fuck? So I go ask rachel, I'm like hey, did you unplug the wi-fi? She's like no, why would I do that? And I'm like what the fuck just happened? Right, because Because this was plugged in. I remember plugging it in it worked. The internet would not work. Like this wasn't like a video that was already loaded. I like literally went onto YouTube, looked it up, picked a video, it started playing and then all of a sudden internet died and the plugs out, right. So like again, I have no idea what the meaning of that is, but it's just those little reminders of like hey, there's more to be seen here than meets the naked eye.

Speaker 1: 13:04

And I think that that's why I'm such a fan of all your work, because you know, I think that a lot of our mission here I know, me and you and many people listen to the show is to do our part to wake ourselves up and in doing that, as a side effect, wake others up as well that are ready to wake up. Right, we're not forcing anyone, we're not telling anyone. This is the only way. But again, right, when you look into things, you realize, just like you said, that there is almost an inversion to everything. And it makes sense, right, because how we do anything is how we do everything. So if one thing is backwards, why would not everything else be backwards as well? And it's really true. I mean, if you look into medicine, everything is backwards. Health, everything is backwards. Spirituality, everything is backwards. I mean literally with spirituality. I was just talking to a client about this yesterday.

Speaker 1: 13:50

If you actually look at the ancient Sumerian tale of Enki and Enlil, the whole idea that basically Enlil was actually like what is surmised now is the devil and Enki is actually what is surmised as God. Right, and again, I'm going to use those terms, but you know, again, they can mean many things, but Enki was the good guy, enlil was the bad guy put it that way and the way that the whole story gets framed is that Enki was a master geneticist and they came here to mine gold. This is the Anunnaki story, right for anyone who hasn't heard it. They come down here to mine gold and Enlil's like hey, enki, we got to make a slave species, dude, to start mining gold because we need it for our atmosphere. And he's like, yeah, dude, I got you. So he splices god dna right, god's dna into the humanoid creatures that were living on earth. They create this species and then enki starts to catch feelings for his creation. He starts to be like man. You know, this is kind of fucked up that there's a slave species, but they're spliced with the DNA of the gods, right.

Speaker 1: 14:46

So he starts sneaking into the garden at night as a snake, because he's a reptilian being, and start sharing with Eve certain things around the tree of knowledge. And then, when that happens, those species right, that species he created liberated themselves and started all connecting together. And this is the ancient story of the tower of babel. And what ended up happening was enlil actually struck down and annihilated if this was an actually actual tower, he annihilated the tower and humans had to disperse across the world, start speaking different languages and whatever. But the whole idea that in the bible, the snake that comes to eve as the devil right the devil and the other person is God is actually kind of an inversion right, and so we can track it all the way back to there.

Speaker 1: 15:29

Now again, I wasn't alive in those times, at least in this meat suit, so I don't know for sure. But it is interesting when you have this scope or perspective of the world of looking at things that are asked backwards. I mean, think of it this way right, in the last four years of silliness, anyone who got up in the political system or the mainstream system to try to tell us what health was, all you had to do was be a conscious being that actually looked at that and said that person does not represent what I know to be health physically, emotionally, mentally or spiritually but yet so many people, out of fear, would follow them. And if you look at the law, one which Aaron teaches, you have this dichotomy between the negative and positive polarity, and the negative polarity is service to self, egocentric, and it feeds on fear. The positive polarity is all based on love and service to others. Right, and the soul. And so when you look at these individuals that are spreading fear, it's very easy to see they're coming from a negative polarity and the only way they can affect you is if they keep you in a fear state.

Speaker 1: 16:28

And then, if you have that theory and you start looking at anything in the world right, when it comes to commercials, when it comes to politics, when it comes to the news, all of it is meant to instill fear. Right, the idea that we, as human beings, need to understand what's going on in other parts of the country, that we have no ability to change unless we decide to create a nonprofit and go over there and actually do something about it. How many people are wasting all their energy on Instagram arguing about whatever war is going on in the place they'll never visit, something they can never change. The only thing they could really change is themselves. Right, start healing within and, as a result, heal the all. Because, as within, so without.

Speaker 1: 16:59

But they're getting thirst, trapped into thinking that their attention and energy and intention should go on watching something they have no ability to change. So it's just completely backwards, man, and I love these conversations, man, because I really feel like it's so important to have these in society. Not everyone's going to resonate with them, that's okay. Right, not everyone is at this point where they're ready to wake up, but at the end of the day, there are people that are ready, and I know. For me, I would have loved to hear a conversation like this back when I was 17, trying to put things together, watching zeitgeist and other conspiracy videos. You know to use that term, but it's so funny, man.

Speaker 2: 17:31

This is awesome, yeah I want to double click on what you said about the inner work, the importance of that, because, especially when just starting on this journey, there's, there can be, a desire. I saw it in myself and with other people. I need to tell everyone else so that they know, because it's going to make their lives so much better and there's truth in that in some way. But ultimately everyone's on their own schedule in terms of, paradigm by paradigm, what they're ready for. I'm saying this for myself too.

Speaker 2: 18:01

I always have to remind myself that the way we end up having the most impact, I find, is that inner work, because when we become the purest vessel ourselves, then that, as a byproduct, ends up helping other people is called when Is my Mind? So let's just say content. Generally that's been my outlet, but that's always come when I've been doing inner work. That makes the vehicle ready for that information. And then I get to a point where it's just like, okay, I've got to get this out there, I don't really know why, and then the project feels like it's behind me. So it's this paradox of service to others through service to self. You've got to be super grounded yourself and then you can be the best vehicle to help other people, but it does start with yourself and then, in that process related to something else you said it's like this fine line of knowing what's happening in the world without getting sucked into it, so having the knowledge and just saying, okay, I know what's happening in the political realm, but then not creating fear around it, but then also informing people about it.

Speaker 2: 19:07

I've had to deal with this in a bunch of my books, especially in Into Upside Down Contact, where I talk about non-human intelligences and I try to cover the spectrum of dark and light, and I wanted to do it in a way that informs that, yeah, there are some really dark forces that have existed seemingly since the beginning of humanity and we still see it now in various forms, and some of this stuff is hard to read, to learn about, how evil it is, and there's also good stuff too. So how does that information get presented so that people know it exists without getting sucked into the evil, because that can be a danger too, to get really sucked into the darkness, where then it consumes you and it wins. So it's like having one foot in, one foot out with all this stuff.

Speaker 1: 19:45

Yeah, 100%. You know, the term that comes to me is the idea of being informed, not smothered, right, and that's my kind of idea. You know, people will ask me not so many people I hang out with, but more, like you know, family members, things like that how do you not watch the news? How do you know what's going on? I'm like, well, if it's that important and it's really that necessary to know, someone's going to be running down the street yelling it, right, and at that point, what am I going to do about it anyway, except just go out with a bang. You know. So at the end of the day, you know nothing.

Speaker 1: 20:12

I've ever seen in the news Put it this way, right, the pandemic presidential elections, the biggest things that kind of happen in the mainstream world. I could have never learned about any of that and been in the exact same spot I am now and I challenge anyone, right? I'm sure people listen to this show, probably don't watch the news but really ask yourself what have you learned from the news that's actually benefited your life in a positive way? Right, I beg to argue that there's going to be nothing when you really think about it. Right, if you get past the idea of just needing to know right, which, at the end of the day, you don't really know something. You have a one-sided perspective to it by viewing a engine, a mainstream engine, whose only goal is to keep you in a fear state so that you stay in lower emotions where they can feed off of your fear. So, at the end of the day, it's not like we don't want to learn about things going on in the world, but we must, if we're going to dive into that, try to see something from 12 different angles.

Speaker 1: 21:06

Right and that's what I love about your work is that you didn't set out to do anything necessarily. You didn't have a bias, you didn't have like, oh, everything's, you know, a conspiracy and whatever. It's just that your findings and your research led you into a world where, wow, okay, there's a lot of things are being told that, let's just say, may not be accurate. I mean, one of the things I saw today when I was perusing Instagram at the chiropractor's office was a post from you, and you do a lot of these amazing ones, and I mentioned it before, but we'll dive into it now. What you're doing, is it with ChatGPT? You're doing that. Done it with all of them, actually.

Speaker 2: 21:40

Okay, all right, all the AIs, and they have different responses which we can talk about too. But yeah, the one I posted today was ChatGPT.

Speaker 1: 21:46

And it was so cool because our mutual friend, alex Zek amazing guy, I'm going to get him on the show soon he's very big on talking about. Is it called terrain theory? Is that kind of the whole idea behind it, the whole idea that viruses don't actually exist, that they've never been isolated? And when I first heard this it immediately made intuitive sense to me. I'll be on, I don't have the background to understand it completely, but as I started looking into what Alec was posting, as I started doing a little of my own research, I found exactly what he was talking about. Like, oh shit, we have literally never isolated the virus. That's pretty interesting. You know, again, correlation not equal in causation. I have no idea, but I know that is starkly different than what we're being told. Right, with how much talk there are about viruses and these kind of things, to never once have isolated one. That seems like a lot of talk for a little bit of payoff, like almost nothing. I mean literally nothing.

Speaker 1: 22:40

Post today you had asked chat GPT about that and chat GPT had validated that and actually said yeah, you know we've never really isolated the virus and I'll let you go more into it, but it was fascinating, man, and I love these things you're doing, because you're not saying, hey, this is just my opinion and you should believe it. You're saying, hey, this is what I've found right in doing research and let me show you the things that back this up for you to use your own discernment, to make your own decision. You know, and I love that man. So how did that first get started? How did you first even find out that you could do that with chat, gbt and these other, you know, ai programs?

Speaker 2: 23:13

Yeah, I'll give you the backstory on the AI and the terrain theory because they're somewhat related. I give credit here to Alex securus, who's the host of a podcast called skeptical. He's the host of a podcast called Skeptico. He's the one who got me onto the AI thing. He's been now covering that on his podcast recently, whereas for years he covered consciousness and other sorts of things that I've written about too. But he has a background in AI. Actually, his business was in that area and now that AI is getting so hot, he's applied his other learnings to that thing. And he reached out to me when he was publishing his book called why.

Speaker 2: 23:43

I just came out recently and he goes through his conversations with various they're called llms large language models. So whether it's chat, gpt or claude by anthropic or google's gemini, these are basically like google search on steroids, where you can ask it a question and it responds. It's not just a search, it actually will will answer your questions about things, and what's so interesting about it is that it has access, theoretically, to so much information and it can rapidly give you an answer. So Alex and I were going back and forth on this because I had just come out with my most recent book, an End to Upside-Down Medicine, which gets into the terrain topic, which Alex was the one really to introduce me to. That to get me interested Because, like you, ryan, I'd heard people talk about it. I didn't really know much and then I started looking into the science of it and this was before I even was looking at AI, looking at some of the foundational studies and saying, whoa, this is really interesting because in virology they use the term isolation in a different way than we typically use that term, because isolation, if you look in the dictionary, means to separate from all other things.

Speaker 2: 24:40

So, to give Dr Tom Cowan he's a medical doctor who's been one of the leading voices in this he says if you have a toolbox, isolating the hammer would be taking the tool, the, the hammer, out of the toolbox and then characterizing it and you can hit a nail with that hammer and you know the hammer hit the nail. If you take the toolbox and hit the nail, you don't know what in that toolbox is causing the. You know there's a lot of factors that are causing the nail to be hit rather than just the hammer. And that's a really good analogy because these virology studies, which go back to 1954, they end up with an unpurified sample. That's just the very short version, and then they make conclusions based off of that sample that they think has the virus in it. So they might see an effect in a soup of material. It's called a cell culture, and the scientists will take fluids from a sick person and partially filter those fluids and then put it in the soup and if they see cells breaking down within the soup, they'll say, well, there must have been a virus there that caused the cells to break down. That's just a very basic version and they call that isolation. So it's really a misnomer and this has ripple effects because then, if we look at something under an electron microscope, do we know exactly what we're looking at? Could it be other things in that soup or from the person that might not be a virus? Or if we look at genetics, could there be other things in there that they're picking up, other genetic fragments that don't come from a virus? You need to have the hammer first to characterize the hammer, and that's really the big debate right now. Has the virus been purely isolated?

Speaker 2: 26:06

And I started talking to Alex from Skeptico podcast about this. My book had just come out and he said well, why don't we use AI to debate this? Because he was coming and he still does come from the perspective that viruses do exist and even if we can't perfectly isolate, there's a lot of indirect evidence. So we start debating back and forth with AI and we both learned a lot in this process, because we would pick up the thread, we would do a thread and try to prove our point and AI would agree with us and then we'd send it to the other person and then we'd get AI to flip and make our argument and it would go back and forth and it was just fascinating to see how the AIs this usually doesn't happen in one prompt.

Speaker 2: 26:38

So if members of your audience go on to chat GPT and say, do viruses exist and cause disease, the first response you're typically going to get until they start changing is, of course they exist and these are all the reasons that exist. But then you can actually play around with it and say oh well, you just said it exists. For this reason. Here's the study from 1954, where they actually said there could be quote, unquote unknown factors that are causing this effect, not a virus. Does that change your opinion? And if you push it over time. Eventually it gets to a point where it says, oh okay, yeah, I'm sorry, I misled you. And then you can even ask it, say like, can you please? I mean you're really giving misinformation right now. This is a dangerous thing in the medical field and it will start to talk about the implications of the misinformation that it gives. So it's actually like tech censorship hurting itself, because you can actually see the mechanism by which we've all been censored and just information's been censored in general. And then you can ask it to explain the mechanism by which it is doing that and how it starts with the consensus opinion and how that can be dangerous. So I've just been playing around with that and it takes snapshots for Instagram and just show like the confessions of AI, like the one I posted today for your on.

Speaker 2: 27:53

This is this was something I had no clue about with viruses. There's a former virologist I think he calls himself a microbiologist now because he doesn't agree with the mainstream model named Dr Stefan Lanka, and he put out a challenge years ago saying please send me papers proving that the measles virus exists using the scientific method. And there was someone who sent him six papers and thought he had conclusively shown the measles virus exists and an appellate court in Germany said that Stefan Lanka won. Wow. And the reason was that the papers did not demonstrate the existence of the measles virus using the scientific method. This was a technical court. Initially Lanka lost, but on appeal he won with the technical court. So today I posted something where ChatGPT was acknowledging that that happened and they apologized that they hadn't acknowledged that earlier when I was asking other questions about viruses.

Speaker 2: 28:40

So this is within the realm of viruses and terrain theory. That's one thing, but think about every other area where people are debating. This is going to be a huge issue, because one person is going to ask a question and they're going to get the consensus response from AI. Another person's going to give them AI information that may be deprioritized or just didn't have in its database and then, because it's a logical machine, it's going to have to adjust. And if it doesn't, then you can really call it out and say look, this is logic. If A, then B. I just gave you A and you're not giving me B. What's going on here? And then you can really expose the, the tech censorship machine this way wow, dude, it is so fucking epic.

Speaker 1: 29:16

And for anyone listening, please go look up mark gore's profile and go look at these things for yourself, because it's one thing you know. I imagine many of you may agree, some may disagree, whatever, but it's one thing to hear something, it's another thing to go see it with your own eyes. That's why I tell everyone, when I talk about cannabis curing cancer and these kinds of things, like, don't just take my word for it, go to pubmedcom, go look up THC killing cancer cells and see for yourself how they've proven this, even in the typical scientific model, and the other cannabinoids along with it treating cancer and other illnesses as well. And I think it's really cool because you know, what I've loved about your posts is that, just like you said, the first line is typically sorry, I misled you. So it's the AI acknowledging the fact that they have misled you. Now, at the end of the day, what I love about what you said, too, is that we know this censorship is happening almost everywhere, right. Censorship is happening almost everywhere, right. But at the same time, even though we know it's happening, it's almost impossible to know how it's happening until we start seeing things like that, right and being like, oh okay, it's really happening. You know, I think a lot of us imagine that we'll just notice when things are getting censored, when in reality we don't. I mean, look at deep fakes, look at all this stuff. And one of the things I'm really into and I just did this, I just talked about this a little bit on the podcast I was on yesterday with my buddy amethyst.

Speaker 1: 30:38

But you know, this whole decentralization movement, I think, is so fucking awesome Because, you know, one of the only reasons that Instagram, for instance, to use as an example, can get away with not allowing me to say cannabis, right, is because what are my other options? Go to TikTok, they have the same rules. Go to YouTube, they is because what are my other options? Go to TikTok, they have the same rules. Go to YouTube, they're kind of the same right. They're all in cahoots with each other. But what happens when there's a thousand different platforms like Instagram and one says you can't talk about the natural plant but the next one says, oh, we'll take you over here? Well, that's gonna breed a lot more freedom. And I think this is ultimately what's occurring right now in society, because we're we're nearing the tipping point when we're ready for that.

Speaker 1: 31:13

You know, whether it's decentralized finance, decentralized medicine, decentralized education, decentralized social media, whatever it is, I think human beings overall are starting to get to a point where we're like shoo, you know, get out of here. You know when you think about. You know what a lot of our mutual friends talk about within the law space. I think a lot of us are forgetting that it was only you know God, 300 years ago that we decided to annihilate the British over a 2% tax on tea. And now these land pirates are literally trying to take everything from us. And instead of trying to protest or war, we're actually very similar to what you're doing with ChatGPT we're using the system against itself. We're finding the same loopholes they use right, which they're not going to get rid of because then they wouldn't be able to use them. And you fight fire with fire. You know, and I think that's the way forward is to go okay. Well, if you have a system that is broken from the start right because they want it to fit certain people but not others well then we're going to go in there and use, learn how to use that broken system for our own good and, in doing so, actually remediate the system, make it more efficient. You know, quote, unquote, fix it, etc.

Speaker 1: 32:21

Whatever terminology you want to use, but I think it's so important, you know, to be able to, you know, use critical thinking and discernment I mean talk about. In my opinion, the ultimate muscle to wield in this lifetime is discernment being able to look at someone saying something and have an intuitive hit of I don't know if I believe what they're saying and then go be able to dive into it and figure out why that feeling came up. I think for all of us, that sixth sense of intuition is one that people like you and I, people like us in this show, understand is true, but for a lot of people they're still stuck in that left brain mentality of well, if I can't see and measure it, then it's not true, when in reality, even science says that 96% of what we know to be all around us, right, infrared, all these different spectrums of everything, is invisible to the naked eye. So it's a very interesting time in, you know, the world where even science is saying things such as viruses have never been isolated, not saying they're not true, but as of yet they haven't been isolated.

Speaker 1: 33:16

At the same time, all these people are following along this narrative that they're terrified of this virus, and I'm not talking from a judgmental point of view, anything like that, it's just an interesting observation as a psychologist, as someone who's been fascinated with research and all of these things, what is more fascinating than seeing an experiment play out in real living color? You know not that I have to support that experiment, but it is interesting from a psychological perspective to see how people fall into this, because I've fallen into my own things in the past. Right, I'm not free of these things, but because of that I can now look at it with eyes of compassion and say, oh wow, that is what's happening. But also, and very importantly, eyes of discernment. Okay, that may have been a choice I would have made in the past, but that is not my choice now. This is not the droid I'm looking for.

Speaker 2: 34:01

Yeah, discernment's critical. I mean I've appreciated that more and more in my personal journey, that that's the key. I mean I've emphasized, especially in my earlier books, the need for compassion and how that relates to the nature of reality itself, because there seems to be an interconnectedness scientifically within our consciousnesses, so to speak. But the term I've used in my books is compassion with discernment, because blind compassion can lead people to then endorse things that are actually harmful. And my fifth book, an End to the Upside-Down Reset, is all about this, about caring people who end up supporting harmful causes and that can result in that's because of a lack of discernment. And I'm saying this for myself, to remind myself too of, like anytime I'm going to say something or try to endorse it, like why, understanding the assumptions behind it. But discernment within this AI realm is going to be really critical.

Speaker 2: 34:45

Since we're on that point, I just want to give a few tidbits to your audience, because I've learned a lot in this process. First of all, it's a very good tool to learn what the consensus thinks about any topic. So I've used that. Just any anything I'm wondering about. Like you know, where there's an alternative opinion, you can find out very quickly what the mainstream scientists or whatever mainstream in that area are going to say so that's helpful, but the problem is that if you yourself, as a user, don't have a lot of knowledge about the subject, it can be easy to be swayed by the AI. Because, for example, with regard to viruses, I plugged in so I copied and pasted the text from the classic 1954 study on virus isolation, the first one by Enders and Peebles. Enders won a Nobel Prize. This is like prime stuff, and the AI did not pick up two things that I knew were there because I had studied this and written a book on it just summarizing a lot of other doctors' findings, and it didn't pick up these two very important things.

Speaker 2: 35:38

One was the unknown factors that I mentioned before, that something other than a virus could be causing the effect. So I had to call it out and say wait a second. You didn't mention that, but if I hadn't known that, if I hadn't spent a lot of time on this, I might have been swayed by what they said about that paper. The other thing that it didn't mention to me was that the researchers ran a control where, basically, they didn't add the virus to that soup and they found an effect without even adding a virus in one of the cases. Meaning that, what does that effect tell you? Does it tell you that there was a quote, unquote virus there? They didn't mention that one to me either. So I just give that word of caution, because you could just plug something in and say well, the AI knows everything, it's so smart. Sometimes you have to direct it, because if it's going to be focused on the consensus, then it will be biased toward that in its interpretation. We're talking about virus, no virus terrain theory. There can be a common misconception, which I had initially too, which is like what do you mean? You're saying they have an isolated virus? I know all these people that got sick and they died, and I saw symptoms. That's not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is what is the cause of symptoms and even death from illness? What is the reason that we can see symptoms? Is it because of a particle that gets inside of cells and replicates? And that's a very specific definition of a virus, an intracellular parasite that does all these things versus some other reason that people can get sick. And actually this does tie back to AI, because it goes to getting to causation. Like you said before, correlation versus causation. I'm appreciating now this is one of the most important things out there, because what happens is I think it's a human tendency, but it also just happens in science generally, or even in politics, where we see a pattern of things happening in the world. We observe things to occur and then we come up with a model as to why they're occurring, and then that model sticks. Then any new things that we observe, we fit back into that model and explain the observations that way. But what if the model was wrong in the first place as to why people get sick or anything else.

Speaker 2: 37:32

So, with regard to illness, we often like to focus on germs, because that's a big part of the paradigm, something microscopic that gets inside of our bodies and then causes symptoms. But what about toxicity like actual physical toxins? What about EMFs? What about emotional toxicity? What about other sorts of energetic things that we don't even understand very well? Or the biofield? The point is there are many reasons to explain why people would get sick, or lots of people in the same place would get sick with similar symptoms. There could be other common factors. So it's just a word of caution, because I see the AI do this.

Speaker 2: 38:03

Sometimes, when it gives me a reasoning, like with regard to viruses, they'll say well, we've got electron microscope images, we've got DNA, we've got diagnostic tests. And then I go back to each of those and say, look, okay, that's possible, but the electron microscope could be explained by looking at material that's not actually viral and misidentifying it. Same thing with the genetic material, the diagnostic text tests. They could be picking up similar material in a body that's got similar symptoms and they're calling it a virus, but it's actually not a virus because you haven't isolated it. And they say actually, you're right, everything that we just described to you was indirect evidence. It wasn't direct. That's interesting because I wouldn't have if I hadn't done this exercise myself. I would have just believed them and said, look, they've got tons of evidence. I can't dispute that. So it does take an active user in all these areas when working with AI.

Speaker 1: 38:53

Dude, so fucking cool man Like. I absolutely love this stuff Because it really reminds me that we don't know what we don't know and that the point of life, if we will, is to not really have to know anything. Right, it's to be a curious observer, and isn't that what science is supposed to be Like. Whenever people are holding on to science with a fucking, you know, like held fists, you kind of know that the idea of science as we learn about it or have learned about it, is being intruded upon. Because again, like this, you know why does this statement exist if science has not been corrupted, right? And the statement is science doesn't change at a at a brink of a new discovery. It changes one dead scientist at a time, and what that art articulates is the idea that, let's say, a scientist, it changes one dead scientist at a time, and what that articulates is the idea that, let's say, a scientist, right, one that believes in viruses, let's say, even though they've never been isolated, you know, he's kind of at the top of the food chain. And then let's say you're a scientist, right, you're up and coming, and you start to bring some of this evidence up, right, like hey, I'm not saying they're not true, but it kind of seems like a lot of this evidence is indirect, like let's dive into this more.

Speaker 1: 39:53

That individual's ego more than likely is going to get triggered and go shut the hell up. This is my entire life's work and you have no right to come in here and act like you know what I'm talking about, when in reality, a lot of times it takes a beginner's mindset to see things that the expert does not see. But at the end of the day, a real scientist would be fucking ecstatic if you found a hole in their argument. That is what real science is. Real science is not trusting science. Like trust and science do not go together. They're antitheses of each other, because a real scientist doesn't ever want to trust science. That's not where he or she finds their fulfillment and enjoyment. In science, their fulfillment and enjoyment is continuing to explore and finding deeper and deeper truths, right, that exist right now. And then, as soon as something comes up to you know negatively correlate that they go. Oh, I guess I got to go back to the drawing board. More work to do. Let's do it right.

Speaker 1: 40:45

So again, we're starting to see that, along with everything being backwards, there's a lot of things that have been bought and paid for these days as well, and that's part of the challenge as well, and I bring this up. You know I brought it up in a couple of podcast episodes, but I'll bring it up again because it does bear repeating. You know, with cannabis, if you want to study cannabis and get federal funding, do you know that they'll only approve you if you're looking to find a detriment towards cannabis. And then, if you do get approved and you are looking for a detriment, the only cannabis you can use, you can't go to a dispensary, you can't buy your own or grow your own. You have to get it from nida in mississippi, which is, on average, five years old, been freeze-dried and full of mold. Sticks, stems and seeds. So like these are the, the, the kind of foundation of how these experience with just cannabis have happened right.

Speaker 1: 41:27

So you know again, the reason I mentioned that is because I truly believe what you're saying. Everything is upside down, right, everything is backwards. I don't pretend to know why, I don't know if it's some big conspiracy or if the human mind just got Watico and, just like you know, went off into left field or whatever, but you know it's clear that something is happening here that is very interesting, to say the least, and you know, one of the things too that you're mentioning with you know chat, gbt and all these types of things is the idea that with viruses, like you were saying, there are so many other reasons that someone could have the symptoms that we now call having a virus. Right, and that's what I loved about Alex Post yesterday. He was saying I'm not saying people haven't died from being ill of some sort, I'm not saying that people don't get symptoms sometimes hanging around each other, but what I am saying is that the model they have prescribed us, that says that it's a virus, is not exactly accurate because, with how many studies they've done upon viruses, isn't the kind of idea that they would have been able to isolate one by now if that was what was going on right Now? Albeit, it could be that it's some ridiculously hard thing to do. They haven't figured it out yet. We're not counting that out. But we're also saying, for the fact that people are willing to rip your throat out over saying viruses aren't real, wouldn't that be something that isolated a lot of times for somebody to be that upset over it? I think a lot of people fail to understand this notion that viruses have never been isolated.

Speaker 1: 43:03

Now, when you get into the biofield you know my personal theory around this and I'm not a scientist, I'm not a researcher in that way. But for what it's worth, this is my personal theory on it is that when we understand the biofield, like Eileen talks about, and we understand the implications of the biofield being stressed out and also distress overall right, it's effects on the nervous system, the adrenal system, et cetera, burning us out. When our stress goes up, our immune system goes down. And what I really feel can happen is that if you're in a low vibrational state and I am around you, and maybe typically I'm in a high vibrational state, but maybe I've been drinking a ton of coffee, not sleeping well, drinking alcohol, whatever it is, and my frequency is easily able to pull down to your level, well, naturally my biofield will assimilate and synthesize with your biofield. That is my personal theory around it.

Speaker 1: 43:44

Now, again, I have no idea if that's right, but to me, intuitively, that makes a lot of sense that you know. Again, you can, you can easily walk into a room where maybe you're happy, but someone else is angry and feel the effect on your biofield. So why would that stop at human mood and not lead over into human illness? It just doesn't make any sense to me. Now again, I don't know, but that's my personal theory. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that.

Speaker 2: 44:06

Yes, I want to touch on that. Then I want to go back to some of the stuff about scientific method and viruses too. This is a really important point about, let's say, the non-physical things that we can't see that affect the physical world. And this is how I got started with my work on consciousness and ends upside down thinking. It's all about the idea that there are, that our consciousness is actually affecting the physical world and some might even regard it as the basis of all reality and that there are things within that realm, energetically or otherwise, that are affecting us in ways that we don't typically conceptualize. And this is an important point, because allopathic medicine tends to be reductionistic, meaning it likes to have a physical cause that it can point to, and that's why germ theory is so appealing. It's like, well, there's this one cause, this thing I can point to, and that's the reason you're sick, versus something that's much more multifaceted, that there can be multiple reasons that someone is sick and it might not be a physical thing we can actually point to. So this area of whether it's biofield or some would call it like psychokinesis, which is where mind is impacting matter, or precognition, where the body seems to know or sense the future before it happens. This is a field I've spent the most time on in my research because that's where I started, and I'm actually on the board of an organization, the Institute of Noetic Sciences, where I've gotten to know a lot of the scientists who study these sorts of phenomena, whether it's energy healing or lucid dreaming or mind-matter interaction. And where I come out on this is that there are real effects in these areas which totally blow apart not only the consensus model of reality, physical beings and consciousness is affecting the physical world. What does that mean about a human being and, like you're saying, the biofield? If we're together, can we be energetically feeding off of each other? I mean, there are things like yawning, for example. Where people yawn, it seems to be contagious. That's not a physical transmission. Or women who have synchronization of their menstrual cycles when they're in the same place. There are things that could be happening that we don't. They're not as reductionistic, but in that field, what I've seen repeatedly is that the scientists number one if they try to study it within academia and this relates to your point about cannabis too.

Speaker 2: 46:06

Probably in terms of like research funding, you've got to study the mainstream paradigm if you want to get mainstream funding, especially within an academic institution. So a lot of the scientists that I've interviewed them for my podcast when Is my Mind and that I work with at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, had to leave mainstream academia to be able to even talk about this stuff publicly. And what they'll tell me is I've heard this from so many people that mainstream scientists will email these more. Let's just say cutting-edge scientists, consciousness scientists, and say look, I'm really interested in your work, but I can't talk about it publicly, so let's just talk behind the scenes because it would hurt my reputation too much. And especially professors who want to get tenure, like you, cannot do this sort of thing. So we end up with a biased scientific realm where all the funding is going into certain areas and that's where you're going to get a prize, potentially, and that's where you're going to make tenure if you study these things. And then they can say well, look, mark, you and Ryan are talking about crazy stuff. There's not enough evidence for it. There would certainly be evidence if it were true. Well, if all the funding is going in other areas, then you're not going to have the evidence that you want. You're just going to have little bits and pieces, so it becomes self-fulfilling.

Speaker 2: 47:09

That's a really important dynamic and you were asking why is this happening? Is it just that people want to preserve their worldviews and, for purposes of ego, to say, look, I spent my whole career on this one paradigm. I'm not going to let someone come in and prove that I was wrong. I think that's part of it too. But there was um an interview actually on skeptical podcast going back to Alex Sequeira, the guy who's doing AI stuff. I heard an interview he did with Mario Beauregard a few years ago, who is a consciousness scientist, neuroscientist, studying spiritual phenomena, and he said in that episode that he was trying to do spiritual science at a neurological institute in Canada and was told by the head of that organization who he wouldn't name and wouldn't name the institute for just purposes of privacy that person, the head of the institute, said as long as I'm alive, you're never going to study this stuff here. And what his opinion was is that this is social engineering, that it's beyond just ego, it's actually trying to steer consciousness and steer the science in a certain direction so that we believe certain things. So that's I mean. I don't know for sure, it's hard to know from the outside. But that's one dynamic I want to mention.

Speaker 2: 48:15

And then I want to go back to your point about viruses and scientific method, because you raised so many important points that I wish I had understood a few years ago. That's why I'm making sure to mention it. The scientific method is all about trying to falsify things. It's about trying to say like this is the model and let's see if we can. What's the null hypothesis here? Can we actually show that something is not true? And falsifying one model does not require having a new model to bring in that replaces it. And this is a point of confusion, because someone could say like Mark and Ryan are crazy, because, look, I know these people. They definitely got, they have these very specific symptoms. And if they're saying it's not a virus and they can't tell me what it was instead, then they don't have any case. That's actually not true from a scientific perspective, because to falsify the existing model doesn't mean you have to have a new one.

Speaker 2: 49:07

I'll give an example. Let's say we're taking a multiple choice test in school. We've got a group of people together and we've got it's. The answer is either A, b, c or D, and the whole group thinks that A is the answer. And then you and I get together, ryan, and we do an analysis and we're like, look, a is wrong, we got to cross out A. And we come to the group and we say, look, everyone, a is wrong. And they say, well, is it B, c or D? We're like I'm not sure we haven't gotten there yet. And they say, well, then it must be A Totally irrational. But that's what's going on right now. That's why there's so much resistance to this virus stuff. And I mean, like you said, first of all, we can't prove a negative, that's literally an impossibility.

Speaker 2: 49:48

There's a lot we don't know, but health organizations around the world, just with SARS-CoV-2, so this is the virus believed to cause COVID-19, that illness People have submitted freedom of information requests to government organizations around the world Over 200 of these organizations, including the CDC in 40 countries, asking for isolation in the way that we've been talking about here, which is actually to separate from all other things, not using the mainstream method of quote unquote isolation, which is actually an indirect method. And they all say we haven't done that. They're validating that it has not been done using the convention. So this is not just like there's a reason. This movement is getting momentum is that the health organizations are actually backing it up, saying actually we've never done it this way. Now the mainstream virologists will come back and say of course, we haven't done it that way, because that's not the way we do it. The problem is they're using circular reasoning. They're presupposing that their method from 1954 is the proper one. So you end up with a circular logic.

Speaker 1: 50:43

And I'll pause there, dude, I mean so important to bring up right, because you know and I want to be clear on this we're not telling anyone what to believe. We're telling you to think about what you're thinking. Right, and you know I use this quote yesterday in a podcast too, but one of my favorite quotes from mark twain is, when you learn to think about your thinking, you become alive in a new way and you know, like that whole idea, that we're just thinking about the collective thinking right now. Right, and we're saying we don't know the answer, but we have a sneaking suspicion that the answer they're giving us is not 100 accurate, maybe not even 20% accurate. Right Like, maybe nothing accurate, you know.

Speaker 1: 51:22

And again, the thing I go back to, you know, in 2020, I went to a men's retreat where I first met Mike blood, so, and my buddy, chris Marhefka, and a lot of the guys that I call homies today, and I remember this is right in the thick of everything happening, and a lot of us there had our suspicions around things, right, like we were like nothing really here is adding up, but you know, I remember Mike said something so powerful to us and someone asked him. They said, hey, you know, with all this censorship going on and everything happening, like, how do we know what to believe? And he said I'm glad you asked. He said the one thing in this world that will never lie to you, no matter how much censorship or how much they try to get around, the truth of it are results. Results don't lie. So for me, I took that perspective and I applied it to my life and I started illuminating things. I started looking at who was telling me one thing and who was telling me another, not because I thought one was right and one was wrong, but I was like, let me look at this through this lens of what results are these people getting? And what I started to realize was that the people on one side saying, hey, look deeper, right, to keep it very simple, I mean, they were saying a lot of other things too, but look deeper, you may not be getting the whole truth here. Wink, wink, soft talk, acknowledge you may not be getting the whole truth. Those people were healthy, they had good family values, they had a mission in the world. They had you know again, like look at Paul, check, for instance, right, paul was very adamant on this very early on, saying, hey, this is all Bill Gates shit, is stuff going on here. And then the other side, right, when I look at like the mainstream media, I can't even really remember any of their names.

Speaker 1: 52:58

But I remember this interview of this guy saying you should go get the thing and if you do you'll get a free Wendy's hamburger. And he's sitting there eating french fries. This is live TV. It's like it looks like a fucking Saturday Night Live skit. It's the weirdest thing ever. For anyone who hasn't seen this, please go look it up. I forget the guy's name. It might have been Gavin Newsom, someone like that, someone cringy like that. And he's sitting there eating the French fries. He's like they're so good, don't you want some of these? Don't you want some of these French fries? You can get them today completely free, just go get a vax. And it was like the weirdest fucking thing I've ever seen in my life. Not to mention the dude who was saying this very similar age to Paul, scrawny skin, all down right, gray hair, very like constricted. And I'm not judging, but again, if you're telling me what health is right and you're a health advocate supposedly shouldn't you be practicing what you preach? Shouldn't your energy light up the entire room like someone who, like paul, does so for me.

Speaker 1: 53:55

I started looking at what type of people are doing which thing and saying which thing and saying which thing, and I made my decision based on the fact that every single person that was telling me to dive deeper, to use discernment, etc. Were getting the exact results that I was looking for. They had amazing families, amazing missions. They were healthy as an ox physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. They were creating change in the world. They were inspiring people. And on the other side, it was just a bunch of people that had no awareness of health. They were saying they did, but they obviously, in looking at them, if you understood health, you wouldn't be fat, sick and unhealthy, just straight up, you know. So, again, when I was looking at them, it became very apparent that, yeah, I'm going to go listen to these people, not because I believe they're right, but because they're getting the results I want. So I'm going to go on that angle and as I continue to go out on that angle, you know, to bring it all up to modern day. I've met people like you. I've met people like Alex Zek. I've met amazing people doing incredible things.

Speaker 1: 54:47

I mean, think about the magic that was Confluence. Think about the magic that was Music and Sky, even though I didn't get to go. You think about that being the kind of like opposite of the narrative. And then you think of the narrative being, like you know, cnn, nbc, these kind of organizations, and for me, I just know discernment, wise like I never want that choice. I want to go to music and sky, I want to go to confluence. I want to talk to people that are lighting up the world with just their energy right, that are making informed and smart choices, that are using discernment, that are taking their own power back. That, for me, was all the evidence I ever needed to see. You know, right there, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:22

So two points I want to raise. Number one is is trusting authorities. It's a really important topic because I come across this all the time. It's because I'm challenging authorities constantly, or what the authorities say, what the consensus says, and people are like, well, what do you mean? These PhDs are wrong. That does take a bit of a mental step to say, okay, it's possible they were not taught the right thing, or that they, that humans, are fallible even if they have certain degrees like that. That does take a mental step to get there.

Speaker 2: 55:49

And the communities that you mentioned, like Confluence and Music and Sky, I totally agree with you because there's an energy there which is one of questioning the authorities and being willing to think for yourselves and look at the results and actually have that independent thinking. But then it's also it's like against the system but not bring down the system. There's a critical distinction there, because there can be an energy to bring down the system versus what I see in these other communities, which I resonate with much more. It's like let's build a new community Like we're, let's build a new system because they're going to do their thing, that's fine, and when people wake up, we're going to build, we're going to have a parallel society, and they're not saying that explicitly, but it's that kind of an energy. I think it's a super important one because it's less combative and when, if we do live in an energetic realm, then the combative energy is going to bring the force at chilling in Texas.

Speaker 2: 56:41

In the heart of where the eclipse was going. We had no issues there, so I think that's where it's all headed. If members of your audience aren't familiar with those communities, I mean, it was my first time being in those environments ever. I had met a few people here and there before, but I had never actually been there. Confluence was my first one, and then Music in Sky a few months later.

Speaker 2: 57:00

I highly recommend checking it out if you want to meet like-minded people. It's just an amazing energy. It's like wow, there's a world that could be built. It doesn't just have to be in these few days at a conference where you have like-minded people who are not judgmental in the way that the world tends to be. They're open-minded If you have an opinion. They open-minded If you have an opinion, they're willing to listen to it. They're not stuck in one way of thinking. It's just it's a beautiful place to be and it's it's, for me, served as a model of like wow, actually this could happen. Maybe right now we're in, we're more fragmented and we're all over the world in different places, but there's a critical mass developing where we can actually get together.

Speaker 1: 57:33

Dude, a hundred percent, perfectly said, and I'm so glad you brought that up, because I never want anyone to think that the answer is anarchy or tear down the banks or any of that. Because let's think about what would happen if the centralized banks just went down, if someone brought them down. It would be fucking chaos, right, a lot of people would die. You know there's a lot of people that are not ready for that. So it's not about, you know, subtraction in the sense of oh, let's pull everything down and start fresh. It about, you know, subtraction in the sense of oh, let's pull everything down and start fresh. It's more of a yes and like hey, certain aspects of these systems do work well, right, being able to get information around is great. Being able to have your money protected that idea is great, right, like, these kind of ideas are not necessarily bad, but let's talk about where they may be incorrupted, right, which, for anyone who hasn't looked into the history of the United States, I'll just say there's a lot there. But again, like, when you look into these things, it's so important to not throw the baby out with the bathwater Because, again, it would cause insane distress right throughout society and it would lead to a lot of dangerous situations. And that's what I love about confluence and everything that people are doing with the law stuff and everything they're saying. We're not trying to redo the system. We're learning to use the system the way it was actually intended to be used. But right now it's only being utilized that way by the 1% that understand this, and the rest of us plebs are kind of just going along with the system in the way that it's not really working. And so when we start to understand like oh, taxes are voluntary and not just in the sense of like I'm just not going to pay them, no, you have to switch your jurisdiction. There's things you got to do, but those things are built in there because you think Trump and these kind of people are paying taxes. Fuck no man, fuck no, this was all built into the system and it can't stop because then all of them won't be able to take advantage of it.

Speaker 1: 59:13

So we've kind of got them in a checkmate position and the challenge is getting the necessary information and the embodiment and doing the inner work to feel strong enough and courageous enough to go out there and actually do something about it. And the great thing is that when you get people together, like a confluence of music and sky, you realize you don't have to do it alone. And when you don't have to do it alone, a lot of the fear leaves and you start to come from that energy of love more. And when you come from that energy of love I mean you're looking at David Hawkins work or any of these researchers and you know PhDs that have really dove into a frequency and consciousness levels and things like that when you are coming from a frequency of love, you are impenetrable to the frequencies of fear, guilt, etc. Right Like. And that's really, as I see it, what we're really looking to do here with the inner work and everything we're doing is to stabilize a high enough frequency that we become unfuck withable that the truth is just plain to see, right and it's. It's funny how you can see evidence of this happening in the collective, because you know how many people are hearing about the pedophilia rings and things like that horrible things happening in the planet and saying oh, oh, my God, the world has never been this bad, what happened. And in reality it's not that the world hasn't been that bad or negative, it's just that we have eyes to see in numbers we've never had before, at least in modern history, and so we're just more aware than ever now. And as your frequency starts to go up, right, anything at the lower levels becomes harder and harder to handle. Right, it becomes harder and harder to have part of your reality because as your frequency goes up, all of that stuff hurts more. All those distortions where people are hurting others or lying to others or cheating on others or any of that stuff becomes just completely inaccessible to be able to have a new reality. And that is what I believe is happening in the world right now.

Speaker 1: 1:00:59

And I think that you know if I can put a good gem on this, right, or like a very positive outlook, like we've been doing, I really feel like these negative influences, right, and by negative I don't mean bad, I just mean like that more service to self type archetype. Aaron and I were talking about this that, in a way, if you look at it from a zoomed out perspective, right, like a big movie happening. It's really like this is what it takes Luke Skywalker to become Luke Skywalker. It takes certain souls signing up to be Darth Vader to potentially trigger people like Luke into becoming the hero. And so when we look at it from a zoomed up perspective, I actually believe all of this is perfectly divine. I believe all of it is happening exactly on time.

Speaker 1: 1:01:38

I believe there's nothing to worry about because it's built in right. Like, in order to know what we are, we have to also know what we aren't, and there's been a long time of figuring out what we aren't, what doesn't work, disease, all of that kind of stuff happening. And now it's time to go. Okay, we know better, so we can do better. And that's the world I really feel we're waking up into every single day, the more that we work on creating that world from within ourselves first, because, as the law of correspondence states, like you said earlier, as within, so without right, there's nothing out there that you need to fix.

Speaker 1: 1:02:09

If you see someone who's you know exhibiting hatred or something like that, ask yourself why can I notice that? Where is that also living within me and how can I work to heal that in myself and, in doing so, help the entire collective heal. And you can see this right. If someone, if you're in a, you know, upset mood and someone walks in in a really good mood at first, you might feel that feeling of like. I'm not going to let them get me in a good mood, because we have to all reckon with that part of us that actually gets something from staying in those low vibrational frequencies. But if they're around long enough, all of a sudden you'll crack a smile and they're like ah, you smile now, you can't be upset and all of a sudden your whole energy picks up right. So that's a microcosm of what we're talking about, the macrocosm here I really feel taking place.

Speaker 2: 1:02:52

We mentioned David Hawkins, who's one of my favorite spiritual teachers In 2019, I ordered like every one of his lectures from when he was living on Audible and just listened to them nonstop. So I probably listened to like 200 hours of this guy, because he had an interesting combination of being, let's say, spiritually awakened and that he had some very mystical experiences of states that are not ordinary, and he was a classically trained psychiatrist, so he was very accustomed to working with the ego and also helping people heal through that. So I just found that synthesis to be super fascinating. Recommend his work to anyone. His most popular book is called Power Versus Force. To me, it's actually not my favorite. My favorite two of his books, I would say, are Letting Go, the Pathway of Surrender it's the last one he wrote before he died. Another one called I, Reality and Subjectivity. It's his densest book, but I think there's a lot of profound stuff, but any of his work works amazing.

Speaker 2: 1:03:35

He talked about a few things related to what you said. One is that when you elevate in your own consciousness and come from that place of love, that you have more support and protection, but the adversaries also become stronger, so you end up becoming. You get tested more and more as you elevate, but you have more protection to help you. You're more capable of dealing with it. So it relates to this notion of of this being some kind of an evolutionary place where we're actually we're growing, and I told this story at Music and Sky. It's coming up again for me now because David Hawkins, as he was getting to these elevated states, ego dissolves. This is what people report all over the place and I wrote about this in an end to upside down, living in the spiritual awakening journey. It's amazing. Across cultures, across time, modern times, old times, people describe very similar things, even though their specific journey, how to get there might be different, but they talk about the sense of just like becoming one with everything. It's ineffable, not describable with words, but they actually get to the state.

Speaker 2: 1:04:28

So Hawkins was getting there and he was in the state of unconditional love and he said there was a knowingness that came to him almost like an entity that in an instant was like look, you have transcended all of your personal karma. All power is yours over others. Take it. So he said. He had an instant to think about this and was like wait a second, why would I want to have power over others. If I am everything at some level, I wouldn't need to have power over others. I reject this. And he said he calls it the Luciferic temptation, where he was then shown all of the beings who came before him, who took the temptation, and they had to start at the beginning of their karmic journey and he was shown the beings that did not take the temptation. They elevated to higher States and he claims he felt he felt like he elevated to higher state. So the point here is that there must've been something within him that was being tested there, maybe something impure related to power, and what I found in studying spiritual awakening journeys Mariana Kaplan is someone else who studied this.

Speaker 2: 1:05:21

She says the three categories are typically money, sex and power are ways that you can be tested. Not that those things are horrible on their own in a certain context, but they can corrupt someone. So for David Hawkins, I guess it was power that he was tempted with and what he always said in his lectures was like I feel a karmic obligation to tell people about this because whether it's this lifetime or another one, you're going to be tempted with something and you don't want to start from scratch like the other people that I saw who took the temptation. So whenever I get a chance, I like to tell that story also to remind myself like what, where is it going to come in? You know, where am I going to be tempted in one of these areas where I could get corrupted. But it's like it's a good microcosm for the world too, because it's like we're being collectively tested but then individually tested on a soul level.

Speaker 1: 1:06:05

Definitely, man, definitely. I mean, we have, you know, stories and even music about selling your soul to the devil. What really is that? Is it actually giving your soul to the devil? Probably not. It's probably not literal, it's probably much more of hey, are you willing to change your entire style of music and your appearance and everything to fit this certain narrative that we want you to fit, because you, the way you are right now, is kind of a kind of stands out and we don't really want that? Oh, yeah, I'll do that. You give me money and fame.

Speaker 1: 1:06:32

Yeah, okay, you just sold your soul to the devil, right, that's what I choose to believe anyway, that that pans out as and it is true, right, like new levels, new devils, like literally in this sense. Right, like you know new levels and you get tested to make sure that you're willing to go beyond. And in that too, what's really cool about that is that you know you may think, right, not you literally, but you know someone may think I may have thought that, you know, the first time I heard that I may have thought oh my God, there is real evil in the world. Right, there are these entities that want to test us and these kind of things. But is that really evil? Or is that something playing as evil to actually allow you to choose more? Good, you know, and so like? That's always a cool perspective for me, because what I choose to believe is that there's no evil necessarily in the world. There's love and the absence of love and a big spectrum in between those, and to the degree that you are in the absence of love, you will have to use force, as David would call it right, because he kind of says power is a little bit different, but force to force your will on others, right, very egocentric, very negatively polarized. But it's not that you're necessarily evil, you're just lacking that which is everything, which is love. So if you are lacking that which is everything, then you are essentially nothing compared to the everything you could be within the frequency of love. And so if you're lacking everything, you're going to try to take everything. Is it because you're evil? I don't know right Like, I choose to view it in a different terminology.

Speaker 1: 1:08:06

It could be semantics, right, but for me, when I chose to start viewing humanity in that way, life got a lot simpler. There was no one else out there that was an enemy or anything like that. There was just series of individuals with their own distortions. The same way I've had to move through my life right and, at the end of the day, like that was a better reality for me to live in, so I chose that.

Speaker 1: 1:08:26

But it is interesting to see these tests that come along right along our journeys. You know I've had quite a few of them already myself. I'm sure you've had them as well, you know. And to see, like you know, when they happen. You like you know when they happen. You know there's a lot of discernment that needs to happen and the more that you've meditated and done the inner work, the more aware you'll be in the better decision you can discern. To choose in that moment. So really is so important.

Speaker 1: 1:08:45

Like you know, people ask me all the time what can I do? And I'm like literally just spend more time in silent contemplation every day and whenever you feel a trigger, ask yourself where is it in me? Right, because where is it in me? Right because that's the ultimate thirst trap in society right now, I feel is the whole victim mentality projection. He or she may be so mad. If they just would stop doing that then my whole life would be better.

Speaker 1: 1:09:08

You know, I see it with cannabis. A lot of oh. Cannabis makes me anxious. Cannabis makes me paranoid. It's like no, you put a joint to your mouth without doing enough self-inquisitive nature to actually realize that you had a lot of energy in your nervous system. And now you connected with the plants and amplifier, and now you're saying the plant's fault. It's the plant's fault, right? So we're seeing this all throughout society, but it is interesting to be able to witness people like David Hawkins, who's one of my favorites as well. Man, I'm reading letting go for my first time now. I've read power versus force before, but it is a fucking epic book, dude. It's so epic yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:09:39

Letting Go is one of those books that I will read multiple times. I read it the hard copy, but I've got it on audible and sometimes I'll just like, if I'm on a flight, just turn it on for a few hours. It's epic. And going back to Hawkins, I mean he, he used this analogy of, let's say, consciousness or pure love, whatever you want to call it, is the sun. We end up in situations where clouds are blocking the rays. So the rays are always there and in the worst case scenario, let's say, the sun is fully obstructed. That would be the complete absence of love, which would be like a psychopath. That's a psychological phenomenon we know of and we might call that evil. We might analogize it there. So it really is the absence of that source energy. That's how I like to think about it. So it really is the absence of that source energy. That's how I like to think about it.

Speaker 2: 1:10:22

And he also used this funny line. He said the best way to become enlightened is just to stop being unenlightened. It really relates to this cloud idea is that we all have clouds that are getting in the way of our true nature and they come from who knows what. It could come from past lives. It could come from energies around us. It could come from trauma within this life Many different.

Speaker 2: 1:10:41

What could come from past lives. It could come from energies around us. It could come from trauma within this life many different factors but we end up with clouds that we're all trying to work through and I totally agree with you. Although this is the hard part of the journey, things will come up that are super uncomfortable in our lives and when that happens, we have two choices, basically, one is to resist it and be really upset about, and the other is to say, okay, well, really inspect this. Why is this thing bugging me so much? There might be something unhealed within myself, and that that's a that's a challenging thing to take a third party perspective, because you almost have to zoom outside yourself to see that.

Speaker 1: 1:11:06

Absolutely. You have to get in the observer, which is a great exercise, because that's really who you truly are, right, is the observer of the experience of you being Mark, or me being Ryan, or whoever's listening, whatever your name, right, observing that. But, dude, this has been amazing, bro. We could literally write for three more hours. I you know. This is absolutely incredible, like I'm so grateful that we got to dive in. This is not going to be the last time you're on this show, man. I feel like we just scratched the surface and we did a great job of kind of like you know, taking a lot of what you've learned and synthesizing it. But, man, I want to make sure I give you plenty of time to plug where people can find your books, where they can connect with you, where they can find your podcast and anything and everything you have upcoming. Man, where can I send people to connect with you?

Speaker 2: 1:11:46

First, ryan, I want to thank you for having me on. Thank you for your work. Also want to give a shout to Brandon Thomas from Expanding Reality Podcast, who connected us after we connected briefly at Confluence. Brandon's doing awesome work too. He's amazing. Great podcast, expanding Reality, awesome ideas there. How are you doing my work? You can find on my website markgobercom M-A-R-K-G-O-B-E-Rcom. All six of my books are on Amazon in hard copy, kindle and Audible. I do the reading myself for covers consciousness, the paranormal quote unquote. I interviewed many scientists who study this stuff. It's on Apple podcast, spotify, all the major players. Where is my mind?

Speaker 1: 1:12:24

Dude, I love that, bro, and I got one last question for you that I ask everyone that comes in the show, and that question is this let's say someone listens to this episode and they're really excited to dive into psychedelics and psychedelic medicines and psychedelic reality in their own lives. What is the one piece of advice you would offer them to allow them to use the proper discernment in choosing whether or not psychedelic medicines are ready for them at this point in their life?

Speaker 2: 1:12:48

I'm not the most experienced person in this area, so my advice would be to really talk to people who are experienced in it and to consider all sides of it the good, the not so good, the benefits, the risks and, as someone as an outside observer, I've heard all sorts of all sides of the spectrum. Some people have had incredible results, life-changing positive results, and other ones who've had negative results. So I do think it's probably an individualized decision and it requires the right people. What is it Set? And setting is what everyone says. That is probably a very important thing to have the right mindset, the right people around you have really experienced people, to talk to the experts before making any decisions and I don't let that turn experts, but I just say people who have done this before, and maybe in multiple contexts to get a wide variety of opinions.

Speaker 1: 1:13:31

Definitely, definitely. It sounds like what you're saying is to listen to something like this one time on psychedelics podcast. That's like you know. It's funny. You said that because the whole reason I started the show is to be that platform, right, where, yes, I've had positive experiences. I've also had some hellish ones.

Speaker 1: 1:13:47

But let's hear from hundreds and hundreds of people what their experiences are from a neutral standpoint, so that people can use the sermon to figure out if these experiences are ready for them right now. Right, if they're ready for these experiences right now, man, so I totally agree with that. That is like the best possible wisdom that you could possibly do to anyone listening is to seek people out that have had these experiences. That can help you actually come to a decision on your own, versus saying, oh, you should totally do them, I love them, or oh, you should never do them, I did them once and that was terrible. No, let's actually help you, you know, enact critical thinking and figure out what your decision is coming from your soul, not just your mind of FOMO or whatever's going on when you're thinking about that decision you know, so important.

Speaker 2: 1:14:30

One thing I want to add, ryan. Again, this is from someone who doesn't have direct experience, but I've. You know, david Hawkins talked about this a lot. David Hawkins talked about this a lot. He was very wary of etheric spirits because he's like look from the perspective of discernment. It's hard enough sometimes on earth, when you can actually see someone in the physical, to know what they are when you get into other realms, whether it's working with someone who's a psychic and is channeling a spirit, which to me is a real phenomenon. But the question is do we know the information is accurate? Do we know always? Sometimes it might be, but not every time or is it 95% accurate and 5% off? There can be a discernment question and I think when we deal with these other realms, beings seem to have an ability to shapeshift and alter our consciousness. Even so, there are two phenomena I know we're getting another tangent, but this is super important now that you got us here and I talk about this in my book on contact. One is shapeshifting.

Speaker 2: 1:15:16

John Mack, who was the head of psychiatry at Harvard, pulitzer Prize winner, late in his career he studied alien abductions. He concluded look, people are having experiences, his line in his book. He said, the alien beings appear to be consummate shapeshifters. They had an ability, because they're advanced, to shift the form that we perceive of them. That's important, because we might see something and actually not see the essence of it. David Hawkins said perception versus essence. Sometimes we perceive something it looks one way, but the essence is something else. I think that's important in the psychedelic realm, whether it's actually plants or otherwise, and the other is screen memories. This is an ability to alter our memories of what something was, and I don't know how to reconcile this because it changes the way I look at everything. I don't know what to trust.

Speaker 2: 1:15:57

Mike Cleland is a researcher who's done a lot of work on this, especially with regard to owls, the animal, but it can be other animals, like raccoons or deers or even clowns, where people have a memory of something and then they have missing time for a few hours. Then they come back and they're like what happened and they'll use a hypnotherapist to try to recover the memory. And the hypnotherapist will say hey, okay, you were driving and you saw an owl on the side of the road. I want you to go up to that owl and in this hypnotic state, I want you to describe the owl to me and the person were having abduction, like experiences similar to the ones John Mack described, where the people were not on DMT but had an abduction. They were having them in Rick Strassman's DMT studies, where he was injecting intravenously and people were encountering all sorts of entities.

Speaker 2: 1:16:50

So then my question I'm thinking, okay, how do we know what's a screen memory? What's the actual? Were they shapeshifters? We don't know what this stuff is. So it's just a word of caution, because our perception shows us one thing Maybe it's an accurate perception, maybe it's not. It's something we should be aware of.

Speaker 1: 1:17:04

Yeah, dude, 100% man. I could not put enough emphasis on that, you know, because at the end of the day, there are real things in the space that I've found, you know, that are definitely interesting, to say the least. Right, there are malevolent things, there are benevolent things and you know, a lot of the malevolent things are really good at seeming benevolent to the untrained eye and that's why I always say like I'm grateful that my life has, you know, gone the trajectory. It's gone. But you know, if I could go back and do it differently not that I would, because everything worked out perfectly but if I could go back and do it again, or if I have any wisdom for others, it's to have a strong spiritual practice before you ever connect with psychedelics, you know, be very trained in meditation, be very aware of what that experience is, be very aware of your own energy, understand, able to, you know, kind of go through that experience with. You know, and that's the most important thing, man. So Mark has been amazing, dude. Seriously, I could talk to you all day.

Speaker 1: 1:18:06

Bro, guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Mark is one of those individuals that I am so grateful exists in this timeline at the same time I do because I have learned so much from him and he's such an amazing brother of mine that continues to open my mind, stretch my consciousness to new heights, and my intention is that this episode did that for you guys as well. If you enjoyed the show, go give us a five star review. What are you waiting for? And until next time, I hope you're having the best day ever and may the source be with you, as always. Peace.