Ep. 186 Brenda Salter McNeil - The Repair of Broken Systems

In this episode, Brenda Salter McNeil discusses the long-term work required for Christians to repair broken systems and heal communities. Brenda shares about her journey into racial reconciliation work and how she came to see reconciliation and reparations as two sides of the same coin. We talk about the importance of listening to understand issues of those most affected, getting proximate to communities through relationships, and organizing diverse coalitions to identify shared concerns rather than coming with outside solutions. Brenda emphasizes staying committed to this work through practices like lament as well as self-care to prevent burnout. Our hope is for the church to reimagine what it means to follow Jesus by embodying his call to justice, flourishing for all people, and representing the kingdom vision of every tribe and nation together as God's people on earth. Join us as we discover how to repair broken systems and mend communities.

Rev. Dr. Brenda Salter McNeil is a dynamic speaker, teacher, author and reconciliation leader! She is a trailblazer, who is thoroughly loving and rigorously prophetic. Her mission is to inspire and empower emerging Christian leaders to be practitioners of reconciliation in their various spheres of influence. As an Associate Professor of Reconciliation Studies in the School of Theology at Seattle Pacific University, Dr. Salter McNeil directs the Reconciliation Studies program that prepares students to engage the culture around them as Christian reconcilers. Brenda’s latest book is Empowered to Repair.

Brenda's Book:
Empowered to Repair

Brenda's Recommendation:
Prophetic Lament by Soong Chan Rah

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Transcript

Brenda Salter McNeil: 0:00

I think our transformation is connected to the diversity that we encounter around us. It opens our eyes, it makes us see things that we never saw before. It opens our hearts in ways that we didn't know we could feel that way. Da Li, we would be transformed if we dare to trust that this this call of God on our lives as the people of God is literally, so that we would be transformed by the renewing of our minds, we would have a culture shift. And therefore we would therefore become people who helped to create shifts in the places where we find ourselves.

Joshua Johnson: 0:54

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Our show is powered by you the listener. So if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides, and more. Go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Jonathan Tremaine, Thomas, Brandon rancher, and Michelle Ferrigno Warren, you can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Brenda Salter McNeil, Reverend Dr. Brenda Salter. McNeil is a dynamic speaker, teacher, author and reconciliation leader. She is a trailblazer, who is thoroughly loving and rigorously prophetic. Her mission is to inspire and empower emerging Christian leaders to be practitioners of reconciliation and their various spheres of influence. As an associate professor of reconciliation Studies in the School of Theology at Seattle Pacific University, Dr. Salter McNeil directs the reconciliation studies program that prepares students to engage the culture around them as Christian reconciler. Brenda's latest book is empowered to repair. I have an incredible conversation with Brenda. She discusses the long term work required for Christians to repair broken systems and heal communities. She shares about her journey into racial reconciliation work and how she came to see reconciliation and reparations as two sides of the same coin. We talked about the importance of listening to understand issues from the perspectives of those most affected getting proximate to communities through relationships, and organizing diverse coalition's to identify shared concerns, rather than coming with outside solutions. Brenda emphasizes staying committed to this work through practices like lament that allow God to break our hearts open, as well as self care to prevent burnout. Our hope is for the church to reimagine what it means to follow Jesus by embodying his call to justice, flourishing for all people, and representing the kingdom vision of every tribe and nation together as God's people on Earth. So join us as we discover how to repair broken systems and mend communities. Here's my conversation with Dr. Brenda Salter McNeil, Brenda, welcome to shifting culture. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm really excited for this conversation.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 4:10

Yeah, I'm very thankful as well. So I appreciate the invitation and look forward to all that we'll kind of jump in together.

Joshua Johnson: 4:16

Yes, well, I want to be and hopefully, our listeners wants to be people who mend broken systems heal our communities. I want to know how you got started in this work in this reconciliation work and why you chose to jump in with two feet. Wow.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 4:35

Well, you know, my seminary days as were the beginnings of me, having to reckon with how much how little things change when it comes to the issue of race. Right. So I became a Christian when I was a college student at Rutgers University on the East Coast. I go to Christian stuff now. So I went to an a varsity gathering. I went to a Campus Crusade gathering. And I went with a friend Her name was Renee, and we were the only two African American people in that entire gathering. And it felt weird, you know. And so at some point, we started, we meaning different of us, people of us who were people of color started this kind of Bible study together, it grew. And that became our community. Right. So fast forward, now I'm graduating from Fuller, I have to do an internship. I am offered the internship at Occidental College, I say yes, because college students, you know, became a Christian, as a college student, I thought, hey, this is like synergy here. So I go to Oxy. And I go into chapel. And there are 200 students in chapel, which is a large number for us, relatively small school, 1200 students, but only two students of color in that room. One student was the Latino brother, Mexican brother, who was kind of trying to distance himself from whatever he feared was the narrative of coming from a working class, Mexican family. And so he kind of kind of let his identity as a Mexican person kind of fade in the background. And then there was an African American guy's name was Ed, he was dating a woman in the Bible Study Fellowship, or in the, in the chapel program, and her name was Susie. And I just kind of felt like I was at a time warp. I don't know if you've ever been in those moments, where, if it you know, you just feel like, what is this happening here? It almost feels like nothing has changed. So that's the answer to what motivated me. I thought I was going to go work with women in ministry. But by the time I stood in the back of that chapel, and had to grapple with how little race seemed to be reconciled, I didn't realize I was being called into a ministry of trying to figure that out. So

Joshua Johnson: 6:46

here you are, and you're figuring it out. And it's been up been a long time, and you're getting some people to understand that there is a problem, which of course, we should all know that there is a problem that there needs to be some reconciliation, there is injustice, everywhere in the world, and especially in every community. So we have to fight for that. One of the things in your book and power to repair, you tell the story of one of your students at Seattle Pacific University, talking about we know this, but what are the action steps? How can we really be activists? What can we do? still in touch with him today? That's good. That's good. So where do we start? How can we start to be these types of people that repair broken systems? Because there are systems that are crumbling, that are not working that are in congruence with with people vulnerable, vulnerable people primarily? How can we start? Well,

Brenda Salter McNeil: 7:51

this is gonna sound weird, but I think it begins with us reexamining our discipleship. And let me explain why. We have come to faith. I have I had like a big aha, our our entrance into faith is through a very individualistic lens, Josh, right. Jesus is my personal savior. Jesus came into my heart, right? I'm not racist. I love everybody, evangelical Christians, amen. Bless our hearts, we have kind of come into, I think a worldview that is very much individualized in our personal relationship with Jesus, you should have a quiet time, right? Even as we listen to our praise songs, you know, they're like a love kind of back and forth between me and Jesus kind of thing, right? So when we start talking about systemic issues, when we start talking about structures that impact people's lives, I don't think we know where to put that. Bright, we respond from an individualistic lens, I went to Haiti, I support missions i. And I think it begins sincerely by interrogating that, because it's not about whether or not I can speak in Spanish or I can, you know, with chopsticks, or I have cross cultural. It's not that we have to think more, I believe in a more communal, systemic structural way that ask bigger questions, questions about the world around us. So we start by shifting our worldview, from being individualistic in our faith, to thinking of this as a corporate process that we all have got to be a part of together.

Joshua Johnson: 9:45

Well, if you look at stories of the Old Testament, you'll walk through them. It talks about corporate repentance, it doesn't talk about individual repentance. I don't know if there is a place of individual events of Old Testament. It's about the old community rip anti and and moving in a different direction. And there you take the story of Nehemiah as a framework for us to walk through. How How does that help us in this corporate world, the sense of system and not just individual us?

Brenda Salter McNeil: 10:15

Yeah. And so that's why I chose that because I was looking for narrative where people had to come together to do the work of reconciliation and repair, right? It couldn't just be about me having a good friend, or me having some particular skill. It had to be a communal effort together to rebuild what was broken, right. And so when you talk about that college students first name is David, and I love him and I love snarky students I do. They helped me grow, they helped me get better. They asked hard questions. And they basically said, Dr. B, we're tired of talking about reconciliation, because it sounds like you guys have like the kumbaya Yacht Club, make a friend, have more diversity in your church sing songs in different languages, you know, and they were like, and so the generation sincerely the generation coming behind us is asking for something more. And they wanted to throw reconciliation away. Basically, you guys just hold on to reconciliation, keep holding hands with each other. We want to repair something we No justice, no peace. And at one point, I was almost swayed by that. But I realized two things. One, we as the people of God are call to reconciliation. It's in the Bible. We just get it. We Chad toss it out. We have been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation, which means we're supposed to do it. And so the fact that we've made it relational is not the Bible's fault. It means we have got to reimagine what does it mean to reconcile? It can't just be a multi ethnic party. This generation is calling us on that, right? And then I realized, and it's in the book that I've just finished in power to repair when I had my epiphany that reconciliation and reparations are two sides of the same coin. When I realized that we in the Bible, Isaiah 58, we are called to be the repairers of the breach, the restorer of streets to dwell in. I was like, whoa. So to me, Josh, what do you hear when you hear that further?

Joshua Johnson: 12:28

I want to be setting people to dancing in the streets, I want the joy, I want to see that streets repaired like this is the the cry of my heart, and it has been for a long time is to set people dancing in the streets like there's going to be joy because there's people coming together. But there's flourishing for all people. A lot of times, I think we especially I'm coming from a a white, heterosexual male perspective, you know, evangelical Christian growing up in that space? I think a lot of times because I have been I have a privilege power that I don't really have to, I don't have to think about race. Yeah, I don't have to think about a lot of the systemic issues, because the system actually works for me. And so one of those things is when systems start to shift and change, and when we see vulnerable people starting to have flourishing, and new ways of living that actually brings about equity. It feels like anytime we lose something, even when we're becoming more equal, it feels like there is a loss. Yeah. And so it's hard for people when they think that their identity is being shaken. So what would you say to somebody like me when I feel the shaking of like, oh, I don't really know who I am anymore. Because the system was working for me. Now I have to rethink. Maybe the system was not right. All along. Yeah.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 14:10

Yeah. I love your questions. I love this conversation. Because just asking, Where do we start one to think about the fact that we're not called to this individualized approach to our faith, this is communal, and we're supposed to be people who are corporately doing this together, not one person can do it. And then you said, hey, my story, you know, I don't have to think about it too much. And I'd say that's our next step, reclaim our stories. There was a time where people were English and British, or Irish or Italian, or, you know, there was a history to how people became white. And then it got mushed into this new category called White nests. And I meet many people who just don't know their family story, right. So even my I story people will look at me and just assume an African American. And that's true on one level. But I did my genealogy and learned that my great great grandmother came from Jamaica, in a place called St. Elizabeth's parish, you see, there's more depth to every one of our stories, and I can't value in you what I don't value in myself. So I'm many people who feel like they don't know their story. They don't know their true, like, cultural history, and therefore they can't value someone else who does. So I'd say, interrogate your story, that do a little bit of that genealogy stuff to ask questions, and then we'll learn some hardships that brought people here. And it will build empathy that says, wow, you know, when we talk about, we don't want those immigrants or we don't want those refugees, and we realize that that's a part of our own narrative, that we had great, great, great grandparents who sacrificed everything, so that we could start in a different place. Those things bring solidarity. Those things allow us to identify with each other. And then we can corporately care about what happens to others.

Joshua Johnson: 16:12

I think that's really important, like, what are we doing? What are our stories? How do we reckon with our stories and think about our genealogy, like we are all if we're in America, and we're not Native American, that we are immigrants, we are refugees, or descendants of right, because now we're at a different place. And so ethnicity is, is interesting. I mean, the race is a construct, right? So it's a human construct social construct that was created in the 1600s. So we have to figure out, like, Hey, who are we Jesus is for all people is for every ethnicity, all nations, every ethnic group, is what he says, at I mean, he started even in, in Luke chapter four, as he started his ministry, the Jews thought he was quoting Isaiah 61, for him for them just for them. And then Jesus said, I know what you're thinking. But remember, a the day of Elijah, he went to Sidon, and he hung out with the widow. And then the only leper that was healed in the time of Elisha was naming the Syrian. He said, This is for all nations, what I'm bringing is the flourishing of all people. Absolutely. And the Jews didn't like that, at that time. And so they wanted to kill them, throw them off a cliff, which is so interesting. Why do we have the A individualized construct, even in smaller communities? Like yeah, we don't actually see each other as made in the image of God. Yeah, we decided to be tribalistic is yeah, how does that play into our repair of community? Oh,

Brenda Salter McNeil: 18:04

this is really important now, because the kinds of questions that you're asking are the questions that are underneath what we see. And so often, I think we try to fix or repair what's broken by just dealing with the symptoms, and what you're asking questions of, and I deeply appreciate this, as you're asking, not just what are the symptoms? But what are the causes? Where does this come from, right. And if we continue to have a hierarchy of human difference, where certain people are at the top, and other people are at the at the bottom, and that hierarchy was constructed for a reason, so that, you know, people with wealth, people with power, people who who were born into certain social categories would see themselves as the top of this hierarchy. And the more that people experienced people from different places around the world, the more they categorize those folks lower on the hierarchy of human difference. And we've lived into that kind of philosophical belief system, that we're not level with each other. There's a hierarchy and certain people are closer to God and other people further away, right? So we've got to interrogate that have conversations like this, to get at the bottom of that, right. And then I think we have to understand when you talked about every tribe and nation, the Revelation says, that's what we the people of God, the countercultural ones, while everyone else has a hierarchy, we're called to this vision of every tribe and every nation, every language, every ethnicity together, as as a family in front of the throne of God worshiping together. That's the vision that we're supposed to represent as God's people here on Earth, that that's the tell us that's our ultimate goal where all things are reconciled. In the meantime, we've been entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation to embody that so people can see it. So when the church is divisive, when the church is polarized when we start choosing, you know, in and out and who's for it and who's against it when we start being like that, it's not a very good representation of the kingdom of God on earth, as it is in Hatton. So

Joshua Johnson: 20:21

if we want to see the vision of reconciliation, what it actually looks like in heaven, one of the things that Jesus says, I will teach you how to pray, your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So if we're praying for that, every day, that should be a representation of what we have on Earth, because we're saying, God, we want this here. And now, not just when we go to heaven when we die, but we're bringing heaven here. Like this is the reconciliation. How, how does scene vision of the future of knowing where we're headed, help all of us, galvanize towards a greater good, amen.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 21:02

It's I do north, it's I lighthouse in the darkness. When we lose our way, we're supposed to look back up that and say all, that's where we're going toward. And then we need to look at our lived reality and ask ourselves, is every tribe in every nation in every ethnos honored? And it could be Brahim? And if not, what do we need to do to look more like the kingdom of God? This was not supposed to be a comfort Club, where everybody is just like each other. This is supposed to be a way that we if we don't have it in our local congregation or our context, how do we partner? How do we build bridges? How do we connect with others so that we do have the opportunity of iron sharpening iron at one culture helping the other culture? Oh, my gosh, how does that change us? Because you know what? I think that we think we're doing that for God, I think we're being transformed. I think our transformation is connected to the diversity that we encounter around us. It opens our eyes, it makes us see things that we never saw before. It opens our hearts in ways that we didn't know we could feel that way. Da li we would be transformed if we dare to trust that this call of God on our lives as the people of God is literally so that we would be transformed by the renewing of our minds, we would have a culture shift. And therefore we would therefore become people who helped to create shifts in the places where we find ourselves.

Joshua Johnson: 22:44

Amen. You know, I'd love to go back a little bit. I think we breezed over it a little too quick. With when you talk about that reconciliation and reparations are two sides of the same coin. There's a misconception of what people think about reparations. You talk about something that Brian Stevenson said about reparations in your book, which I think was really helpful for, for me personally to rethink. What does that look like? And what are reparations? Can you can you share that?

Brenda Salter McNeil: 23:15

Oh, yeah, that was my turning point. That was my turning point. Because I had students kind of going No justice, no peace, you know, and, and I've been you know, with them, I've stood in places, but I couldn't quite figure out how well it you know, this felt like justice. And this felt to them, like reconciliation felt more like relational, right? And so I go to hear Bryan Stevenson, who was here in Seattle, giving a talk at a church and I was invited to go by a young man, his real name is Joshua, but I, I started calling him brother reparations. And I did because he talked about reparations all the time. And he wanted to know why I didn't talk about it all the time. And why, you know, what was this reconciliation thing? So we would meet and talk so he had tickets that got me into that particular conversation, where were Bryan Stevenson was presenting. And so for those who don't know who are listening, Bryan Stevenson is a well renowned author, a lawyer, a person who is known for his work around justice in his in his in his work in ministry, he's opened museums and what have you. So Bryan Stevenson is a person who is well regarded nationally and internationally. And I was very, very grateful to go hear him speak. At the end of his of his presentation, he took questions and the guy who brought me my dear little brother reparations, raised his hand to ask a question, and I instantly knew that that question was going to have something to do with reparations because he talks about it all the time. And he said, Mr. Stevenson, do you believe in reparations? And everybody, this is what he said. He answered this his question by saying, Of course I do. But anybody can write a check. He said real reparations would be to repair what was actually broken. For example, in the union in the United States, African American people were forbidden the right to vote. So to repair that, we would give every African American person the right to vote on their 18th birthday. Then he said, and if you were an elderly, senior citizen, and African American, we come to your house and pick you up and drive you to the polls to vote now that he said, would repair what was actually broken. And it was that night that I stopped thinking of this as Give me my money, give me my stuff, you owe it to me, you owe it to us. Because I think when people hear reparations, particularly if I can be candid, white people, I think there's a fear that people want to take our stuff away and give it to somebody else. But my family worked hard for this. And so you know, over my dead body kind of thing, right? And let me say this, I was in South Africa, and I was in South Africa going to Cape Town for a conference. It's beautiful in Cape Town. And when I think about the, you know, the problems that were in South Africa, and what had to happen for healing to come, right, I realized if people would have tried to take Cape Town away, that would have been a bloodbath. So Nelson Mandela, the way he, he he, he partnered and navigated that problem, or that system of apartheid, and how that came to peace is a miracle. Because when people feel like reparations means taking away what belongs to me. That's not that's not going to end well. It leads in by leads to violence. So I now understood reparations to mean repair. And that's what took me to Isaiah 58, where Gee, what God says the people of God are called to be the people who repair. That's not supposed to be a scary word for us. We're supposed to be the people who repair what's broken around us. And that's become my new rally call. That's why I wrote this new book empowered to repair. Because I believe that when we bring reconciliation and reparations together as two sides of the same coin, now the people of God are on mission for the kingdom of God.

Joshua Johnson: 27:35

All right, I have an example. And I wanted to hear your thoughts of, of what we have been trying to do in Kansas City. In Kansas City, we have a lot of historical issues with race, and there's a literal red line. And we had redlining, where most African Americans are on the east side of the city, all of the white people are on the west side of the city. And that was built up. Those those days. After the murder of George Floyd's. One of the things that that came up in us is we wanted to do something to say, Hey, enough, with this redlining, we want to come together. And so we on on Troost Avenue, which is the the line who had you know, a my, like, two, three mile long prayer that Joel, where we had people from, you know, African Americans, white people, all sorts of people praying together. Yes. You know, it was in the middle of a pandemic. So we all had masks on, we wrote words like hope and repair, we and you know, reconciliation, all these different words that we were praying for, for unity, and peace. So we have this, you know, we also then set up a prayer room where we have the history of injustice in Kansas City, and different prayer stations where we were praying for these things. So prayer started some things, right. We're bathing some things in prayer, and we're starting some things. But once those events happens, a lot of times, it's like, we go back to business as usual. Yeah. How do we continue the process? Not just have events that make us feel good? Yeah, that get us started. But then continue the process of the long term work that it really takes to repair broken systems. Yes,

Brenda Salter McNeil: 29:32

great question. And thank you so much. And again, anybody who knows me knows I don't write books just to write them I really truly don't. It For Me is a labor of love. Right? I want to see the church be the church. And so if we look at Nehemiah as example, he here's the bad news. And we all hear in the bad news. Right? And it breaks his heart and he weeps any praise. So that's where we start. We feel it. We don't pretend we didn't hear that. And we pray, we cry, we look to God for guidance. And then he goes into his employer is king, who he's the cup heir of right. And it's not a good thing to look sad, in front of the cup in front of the king, if you are the guy who's supposed to sip the wine and make sure nothing poisonous is in this man's bugaboo. And so, you know, he comes in, and the king can see that something's wrong. And he asked him what's going on with you, right? And he tells the truth, he tells the truth that something is radically wrong, and people's lives are being destroyed by this, and I care about these people watch this, can I have a leave to go there? Can I get close enough to it for myself, and the king gave him permission to go back to Jerusalem, I want to say to everybody listening, we cannot care from afar. We won't know what to fix if we don't get close enough to see what's broken. A man. So I think a lot of us, me included, we've got to take the risk of taking ourselves to places where we've heard the news, but we've never seen it. The closer we make, make contact with real voices, real people, real stories, it changes my judgmental Ness. You know, I hear things and I feel like okay, you had a stereotype in your head about who you thought was in this situation. This person doesn't fit that stereotype at all. And then I have to hear their story. How did this happen for you? So I think that the way that the church can come outside of our, our buildings, and I'm laughing because I have a dear friend, her name is Sandra, one time I sit, you know, saying I don't want to pastor a church. And she said to me, Brenda, what do you mean by church? When you say you don't want to pastor a church? Are you talking about the noun or the verb? Oh, Lord have mercy. And she said, Are you talking about the box? The place we go into on Sunday mornings? Are you are you? Are you talking about the people? the called out ones, the ecclesia.

Joshua Johnson: 32:17

Okay, amen.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 32:20

And I thought, oh, my gosh, church is not a place churches of people. And I believe that the people have got to get closer proximate, like Nehemiah to the problem so we can assess what's going on for ourselves. And that will inform what we therefore will do. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 32:42

we have to move into the neighborhood. Jesus moved into the neighborhood to me, good. Jean Peterson, incarnation, incarnation that is getting there. I mean, the same thing that happened to us in the Middle East, you know, as we started to, you know, we started the beginning of the Syrian war, Syrian refugees are coming. And the first thing we did to visit refugees and start to work is he commuted from the city from Amman, all the way up north, close to the border. But then we're like, Oh, God is on the move. There's something broken here, we have to be involved. So we moved to a poor, ugly, dirty, dusty town on the edge of the desert, which I'm from Seattle, I love the I love trees,

Unknown: 33:25

and mountains, rivers, lakes, I don't want to live in this ugly town.

Joshua Johnson: 33:30

But this is where God is moving. And this is where something needed to happen. So we had to move in as the neighborhood. And now I have friends. They're like, I know the people and we can work together because they're my friends. They're not just the other that are over there. They're my neighbors. They're my ones that I know, I spend time with, I eat with, we share meals, I know their kids, I know their stories. This is what we need to do is move into the neighborhood. And it's costly. Yes, but it's worth it. Yes,

Brenda Salter McNeil: 34:05

it is. Yes, it was every opportunity that we get to get closer to the real truth of the situation. I promise you it will change our lives. You know, we can be told these immigrants are coming over to take our stuff. But I dare you to sit down with a mother who's holding two small kids, or better yet, I am a mother of two young adults. And when I heard about children being taken away from their parents, two year olds and three year olds, and they couldn't figure out how to get that baby back to their parents. I almost fell on the floor. I couldn't imagine not knowing where my two kids were and how to find them and see that brings a different feeling. We might need to fix immigration. Immigration System, okay. But not like this. See, that's where the people of God show up and say, Where is her baby? Where is her son? We must find that that's what compassion does. It doubles us over in our gut, so much so that we show up differently. And we do love our neighbor as we love ourselves.

Joshua Johnson: 35:14

Yes. Amen. So, now we have proximity to people, we have this pain. We, like we did after the murder of George Floyd, we entered into lament, and we prayed together, right? How do we then, like organize a diverse core coalition? How do we gather people together saying, this is the problem that we're going to repair? We're going to do this together.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 35:41

Amen. Let me tell you something I'm going to combat is Pastor Joshua, I'm going to confess, I had to take a community organizing class, y'all. Because as Christians, and I'm telling you, I've been through seminary, I have a doctorate degree. But none of that journey that anything in my Christian seminary training teach me how to do community organizing, but Right, but in the days of Dr. King, faith, and and activism, they were happy were hand in hand, singing hymns, and marching at the same time. Now, I defy us this, for us to know how to do that, right? I think all kinds of things got in our way, Lord have mercy, I think prosperity gospel. And it was, I think a lot of things clouded our vision of our call to justice and our call to that being an extension of our faith. It looks like our commitment to be the repairers of the breach. That's why Dr. King would preach a sermon. And, and the people would rise up and college students would make a commitment to get out there, even if it cost them their lives or their health or being jailed. They were willing to stand up for the righteousness of the kingdom of God, because those things were inseparable for them. We've got to marry them back together, we've got to understand that those are not two different things, which is why I'm saying that repair and reconciliation, reparations or reparations are two sides of the same coin. Right? So here's what an answer to your question. Here's what I saw the Amaya do and I had to get into the Bible, and I took this community organizing class, he surveyed the situation to figure things out to see it up close and personal, personal to let it really inform him. But then he didn't come in with all the answers and say, Hey, yo, this is what we're gonna do. And if Christians aren't careful, we will go into places that are broken and come in as the saviors of the world. Now, if both don't like that a man we don't really enjoy that no one all folks. All

Joshua Johnson: 37:54

right, there's only one who is the Savior. There's only one who is the Savior.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 37:59

Right. And we've got to be careful, because I think in the Western world, we've been socialized to think that what we got to do is come in with the answers. I think we come in with questions. I think we pull people together, people who are in the situation, who know the situation better than we do. And we ask them, we ask them, and that's what I learned from community organizing is starts with a listening campaign. Did you know that you go around and you talk to as many people as you can, and you start listening for a common concern that rises to the top. And then as opposed to it being our concern or your concern, and we come in with our little doctor degree of whatever we think we got, and we got to tell the people what they gonna do. Instead, we listen to the people, we hear what concern seems to be at the top of the list for them. And I believe that what what Nehemiah heard was, the walls are destroyed, the gates are burned, we can't defend or protect ourselves. And then he says, Let's arise and build. Let's get everybody together. And to see who was on that wall. When I read through that list and saw that this man had his three daughters on the wall. I was just like cup Ma. A perfumer, a guy who would own the perfume shop was on the wall. And all of that was both beautiful and hilarious to me because it says that everybody, everybody was necessary. Not we didn't have to just have people who were skilled builders and construction workers. We needed everybody. And I think that's our next step. Our next step is to come in, listen and ask people, What do you think is the issue here? And after we identify what that is together? Then we come together to work together to repair what is broken.

Joshua Johnson: 39:57

If we're talking new time I spent language with Jesus and he noticed the 72, he talked about in the harvest field, you know, and Luke 10 twos, like pray to the Lord of the harvest for more workers in the harvest field, and community organizing. And as we're repairing broken systems, the people that are going to be the workers are usually from that community. There inside that community already, as we're asking those questions, we're gonna find the harvest workers or the harvest in the community, they're not gonna have more people coming from outside will be there with people. So those are the when. So what are we listening for? For the people that are going to start to rise up and say, Okay, we're going to do this together? Yes,

Brenda Salter McNeil: 40:46

amen. That's the lesson. I think that we as evangelical Christians, that's where we kind of didn't get trained in that way. And I think that with all compassion and sincerity in my heart, I love God, I love God's people. And I want to see us be people who will both see us coming. They're not shaking their heads, like, Oh, here they come. You know, instead, I want them to see us and like yet, wow, have a calm. Because we come with a different posture. We don't come with arrogance, we don't come doling out money, we don't come. So we feel better about ourselves, because we gave everybody blankets. And that's not a bad thing to do. I'm not even saying that we shouldn't give people blankets. I'm saying that the motivation under it has to be this co creative posture that sees the human dignity in all people. Rich or poor, educated, uneducated, you know, it people who live proximate to the pain they are, they have the PhDs and what needs to be fixed. And we need to be humble enough to know that. And so that that's why I love that young man who called me accountable David, who said that to be no more books, we read them all. We got to have the books tell us what are we supposed to do when we graduate step one, and he made me stop just being a college professor who could demonstrate how much I know, to bringing my practitioner into the work and helping us to figure out how do we live this? Because that's what students are asking us for right now. And I'll say this, and you take this anywhere you want to, I'm concerned about the future of the church, because we have a growing number of young adults who don't find us relevant. And they don't come to church. And it's not because they don't believe in God. They do. They have a spirituality of their own, but they don't have confidence in the church. And anybody listening to me, I hear I want you to hear me say if we want to reclaim our credibility with the generations coming behind us, we're going to have to reimagine what it means to be the church, not the now, but the verb. Yep.

Joshua Johnson: 42:53

Yeah. But new wine needs new wineskins we need new imagination of the church. And the church that actually follows Jesus, Jesus is Lord. Not that a Jesus is my my buddy. That's next to me. But Jesus is Lord. And we as a people, are disciples of him following him, and we get to enter into what he's about. And one of the things he's about is justice, is to see the flourishing of all people. And so that's what what people want. So there's i. So that's actually what gets me hope for the church is that I've seen, you know, recently, you know, I was at the micro church conference last week. And so we're looking at new wineskins. What does it look like to be the church in community? And what are we looking like to actually attack some of these issues? What is God called us to the people the pain in the city that he's called us to? These sort of things are happening, there's a, a new wineskin is happening. So I'm actually encouraged that there is some new things that are possible and the future of the church, I think, with this younger generation, is going to look brighter than it does did in the past, because they want to follow Jesus.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 44:11

I agree. I have 100% agree. I do I do. They're my taste testers. Now, when I'm writing firm, and I run it by them, what do you think about this? Yeah, pretty good. I don't know about that part of it. But they're very, very helpful, I think in helping us to reimagine a new way forward.

Joshua Johnson: 44:30

Yes, it's so good. Number that this is, man, this is so helpful. I wish I could, we could talk for another 18 hours, but we don't have time for that we have to be on the streets. But if we get to the streets, and we're continuing to move forward, and we have this, this community we've organized together. It's a long term work. This isn't short term. This isn't just a nice little fancy, like gathering that we're going to do. This is long term repair work. How do we stay in it? For the long haul? How do we not say, Okay, that was good for now? I'm just going to bow out and stop you for a long time. How do you stay in it? Yeah,

Brenda Salter McNeil: 45:12

you're so right. I think you're, you're, this is such been so helpful, I am appreciating our conversation, because you've so interestingly walked through the various major themes of this book. And I thank you for having read it that carefully and seeing the progression. At some point, Nehemiah knew that things had been established enough that he could take a leave of absence and go back to his his work, check back in with the king. And so after a while, he takes a leave of absence. And he knows that the people can hold it together, their leaders in place, the work has begun, people are making progress and all of that kind of stuff. And that's to say this, we don't do this work alone. We do this work in community with others. So that means one monkey does stop the show. Like, you know, it's not like the work won't continue. If Brenda's not there. Yes, it will. Right. And, and Brenda has to be humble enough to know that, that there are other people who were doing this together, we're collective right. And also to know that God knows that we are human beings, not human doings. And we become less helpful, less effective when we're burned out and doing this on few. Right. And so there's a need for self care, there's a need for opportunities for sabbatical for reflection, to check in around calling to hear the voice of God afresh for ourselves, right to be re energized in the work and to be re energized just as a human be. It's a humble thing to acknowledge that we are finite folks. And you know, and so sometimes I think about it as a kid who's in kindergarten, who comes out and says they're one line, and their parents go bananas, they clap. Like that was the best we've ever. And then the little girl, a little boy takes that little curtsy or their bow, and they just go off stage, you know. And so in some ways, I think there is a human humility that says, do your best. Give it what give it what you've got, do what God's called you to do. And then know that we are human beings, not human doings. And also hear the whisper of God that says, Come aside, my beloved, come by still waters, let me restore your soul. Because if you start leading from your anxious self, you won't bring life. But if you lead from a restored soul, you'll have new vision, you'll have new, something new will come out of that place. So that's what I think is the answer to longevity. I think we stay close to God, and we let God lead us by still water to restore souls.

Joshua Johnson: 47:59

Amen. That's good. Brenda, have you had one hope for your readers, this book, what's your hope?

Brenda Salter McNeil: 48:07

I would hope that we would actively take one step to do something different than we've ever done before, go to court, and sit in court and hear this the thing for yourself, go, you know, go to someplace where they have community dinners here in Seattle, and it's for people who are unhoused, or who have food sufficiency and just eat a meal. And you'll be shocked at who you're talking to across the table. I think they're small one steps toward proximity that could open our eyes to a world that we've never seen, and our compassion and our heart will deep and we will start our journey toward transformation, as we do the work of reconciliation and repair.

Joshua Johnson: 48:52

So good. A couple quick questions here. I'd like to ask at the end. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give slow

Brenda Salter McNeil: 49:01

down cheek? Rub on wasn't built in a day?

Joshua Johnson: 49:05

Amen. Amen. That's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately? You could recommend? Yeah,

Brenda Salter McNeil: 49:13

I've been reading a book by some genre called prophetic lament. And I think one of the ways we slow down is to learn how to lament, I think we've created such a triumphal, holistic kind of approach to Christianity where our praise songs have to be all upbeat. I think we're living in a world right now that would use the US sitting deeply in what it means to lament and allow God to break our hearts and to see what comes out of that place because we sat with it and didn't gloss over it. So prophetic lament by sunshine bra would be my recommendation. It's been helpful to me.

Joshua Johnson: 49:54

Excellent. So good. How can people connect with you get your book where would you like to point people to

Brenda Salter McNeil: 49:59

you Yeah, my website is Salter mcneil.com. Or you can find me on Instagram and Facebook, Dr. brenda@facebook.com, Dr. Brenda on Instagram, and it's really me. So I'll holla back if you holla back at me. Okay.

Joshua Johnson: 50:16

Awesome. I love it. Well, Brenda, thank you for this conversation that we could actually take some of the story of Nehemiah so that we can know how we can start to repair broken systems to heal our communities, to walk with a place to get proximate to the pain to know what is actually going on, that we can ask really good questions and sit with people and to know that the answers will come from the community, and not the as the savior complex from the outside. But then as we start to see the pain we can lament together. And then we can start to walk in and gather others together to actually solve some of these issues and bring justice to a place of pain. And a vulnerable community in which Jesus loves and cares for and wants to see flourish. So thank you for for this. I pray that people will take that one step and then journey for over the long haul, and get with people and find their community to actually tackle these issues. Because we can, and Jesus is with us. And he's promised us that and that we can be people that meant our communities and broken systems. So thank you so much. Brenda Masnick.

Brenda Salter McNeil: 51:36

Wonderful. You're an outstanding interviewer.

Joshua Johnson: 51:39

Thank you. Thank you.