Ep. 191 Sarah E. Westfall - The Way of Belonging

In this episode, Sarah E. Westfall shares about belonging, identity, and community. Sarah shares her personal journey of finding belonging through vulnerability and authentic connection rather than external performance. We discuss how to cultivate belonging through contemplative practices, empathy, humility, and asking open-ended questions. We also address the challenges of loneliness and isolation, and offer tips for overcoming feelings of not belonging through small acts of connection and relationship building within existing communities. So join us as we find a path to belonging.

Sarah E. Westfall is a writer, speaker, and host of the Human Together podcast. Her previous work includes serving as director of community for online writing groups and as a student development professional on college campuses. She is the author of The Way of Belonging: Reimagining Who We Are and How We Relate. Sarah lives in Indiana with her husband, Ben, and four sons.

Sarah's Book:
The Way of Belonging

Sarah's Recommendation:
How to Walk Into a Room by Emily P. Freeman
Listen to my episode with Emily about the book

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Transcript

Sarah E. Westfall: 0:00

Fitting in and belonging are not the same to fit in there is a measure of like molding of changing of morphing of hiding who we are to to look like the in group where as belonging is much more substantial. It is showing up in the fullness of who we are then extending that to other people except saying like, You are safe here, you belong

Joshua Johnson: 0:42

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, did you know that our show is powered by you the listener, if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides, and more, go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second. And it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Emily P Freeman, Sally Steele and AJ Swoboda you go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Sarah E. Westfall. Sarah is a writer, speaker and host of the human together podcast. Her previous work includes serving as Director of Community for online writing groups, and as a student development professional on college campuses. She is the author of the way of belonging, reimagining who we are and how we relate. Sarah lives in Indiana with her husband Ben and four sons. I have a great conversation with Sara around belonging, identity and community. Sarah shares her personal journey of finding belonging through vulnerability and authentic connection rather than external performance. We discuss how to cultivate belonging through contemplative practices, empathy, humility and asking open ended questions. We also address the challenges of loneliness and isolation and offer tips for overcoming feelings of not belonging through small acts of connection and relationship building within existing communities. So join us as we find a path to belonging. Here's my conversation with Sarah E. Westfall. Sara, welcome to shifting culture excited to have you on thank you for joining me.

Sarah E. Westfall: 3:06

Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm grateful. What's your story

Joshua Johnson: 3:10

of home belonging in your life? Can you just start to So walk us through who you are? And your, your journey with belonging?

Sarah E. Westfall: 3:21

You know, belonging is a question that I've carried for a really long time. I am a firstborn from a high achieving family. And so very early on, and a lot of this was because of my personality, I think it had to do with where I grew up in the world and the church culture I was in at the time, but a lot of my desire for belonging, I tried to meet that through performance and achievement of trying to fit in and an often traded being seen for being known. And so it was almost like, you know, hiding in plain sight in a lot of ways. But that only worked for me for so long. Because what happens with the spotlight is the spotlight will fade and that that high of achievement, that momentary recognition, it wears off. And so realize that I was always kind of grasping for this belonging outside of myself, hoping that it would just be up there on the horizon in the next place. Or maybe the next person that maybe that settled nests, I would find up ahead. But you know, it was never there and there was nothing I could do to like, manufacture that on behalf of other people. So, you know, about 13 years ago, we went through a pretty I'm shattering experience and that we had the death of our son. He we found out halfway through the pregnancy that he had a life limiting illness, or life learning diagnosis. And so we knew that he would not live long outside the womb, that season just felt like I was falling, perpetually falling and falling and falling. And I had all of the independence, all of the Chi being like, mattered nothing in that grief, like there was no pull yourself up by your bootstraps and that season, and I began in the most raw weakest moments of my life, to begin to really see two things. One, what it looked like to allow people close to the unvarnished versions of myself, and also to experience the presence of God in a way that that was enough that I didn't need to do or be anything else. And that really began to shift, not only my sense of belonging, but the questions that I was asking around the topic. That

Joshua Johnson: 6:11

same story happened to to my friends, and it's the, it's the thing in the middle of that is, I know that we struggled for a while with infertility, and it took a long time to have a child and my wife is, is very similar is high achieving, and and so am I. So the questions I think asking God during that time is, look, I've done this, I've done this, I've done this, why don't I get a healthy, baby? Right? Why don't I get this? Because I have done this? How do you reckon with that, during during that time when you're you are in in that place of I've done this, I've done this? I've done this?

Sarah E. Westfall: 6:57

Right? You know that that's a huge piece of my story. I remember one day, I mean, I was still pregnant with our son Carter, who passed away. And I look out the back patio window and saw a neighbor who was also pregnant at the time, smoking. That was not what What to Expect When You're Expecting said to do and I remember this very, I mean, just rage, well up inside of me an asking God, just so angry, like I did everything, right. And she's the one who gets to bring her baby home from the hospital. I mean, I was, I mean, beyond angry, angry doesn't seem like a good enough word. And I think the my level of anger in that moment, and the gentleness that I felt God, and his response to me, because I was asking, why, why me? And he was like, why not? You know, which I didn't love that at first. But the gentleness with which I sensed the response, it just was like a mirror in that moment that I began to see how much my sense of worth was tangled up, in my work in my appearance in and doing the right things, quote, unquote, that really began to unravel not only my own achieving ways, but really, that maybe God was different than what who I thought he to who I thought he was, you know, what

Joshua Johnson: 8:39

a what a gift to have a space. I'm not saying that, that the death of your son is a gift, but the the habit space of saying, hey, my worth is found in what I do, to move it towards now saying, Oh, my worth is and who I am that God has made me worthy because of who I am at the beginning. And it doesn't matter, the stuff that I do. So how do you start to transition into that? How do you find your identity and being with God and knowing who he says you are more than what you do for him? Or what you do to achieve? Yeah,

Sarah E. Westfall: 9:19

you know, I think a lot of that is ongoing. I don't know if we come to a complete place of arrival with that. But it is a continued learning belonging is it something that you know, to to know that we belong within the embrace of God that we are beloved, that's not like a set it and forget it, kind of thing, that once we get there that it's okay, we're good now. It's something that we will continue to wrestle with as we as life continues to happen as as things ebb and flow. But I think that some of the things that have been helpful to me in this process at things I continue to have to go back to in my own postures and spiritual practice, first and foremost paying attention to what it is that is rising up within me. And being able to, to name those things. And so and partnered with that is also the need for silence and solitude. And that like, you know, these long I don't, I have four boys, and the silence and solitude is slim around here. I'm sure it's a and so, but it is still essential. And so trying to find ways to work it into my normal rhythms of life, where I can have space, to, to name what it is that is causing the discontent, what is causing the sense of loneliness, of that ache, of feeling like things don't fit. Because there's a lot of reasons, there's a lot of underlying things that can be under there. But I think that the more we peel back and peel back those layers, what we find beneath it, is that that divine welcome that was embedded within us from the beginning, you know, that Imago Dei that says you are, you know, made in the image of a divine and communal God, and that that is within all of us. But sometimes we still have to peel back quite a few things to get there. You know, the first few years years after our son passed away, I had a really hard time with some of the spiritual practices that I had before like reading the Bible, I really struggled with that, just both from a capacity standpoint, because I was just wiped, and also from a I don't know what to do with this standpoint. And I really sensed God's invitation in that that season. Like, there's just one verse that kind of hung over me and it was just that be still be still and know that I am God. You don't have to do the things right now. To do the things that you used to do to try to manufacture this belonging with me with God, there was an invitation to just be in that season. And, and I think that began a lot of undoing and me to think that I had to know the right things. Act the right way, a lot of right to hear that were right again and again and again, in order to be loved to be loved just as I am, where I am. For him to look, I almost imagine him, you know, looking at me in tenderness or holding my face in his hands and saying, like you are loved right here right now, and I go with you, I go with you. But that's something I have to keep returning to, you know, it's it's not that that season did not fix all the things.

Joshua Johnson: 13:04

No, it doesn't fix all the things but when you are in this space of of grief, and and longing for and you have a loss, right? There's this on taps love that you can't express this love to this person because they're gone. And that's grief and God saying be just be Be still and know that I've got that you could be in that space is a great reminder then later in life, as we've moving through the this grief, he's still there, like you still just have to be, there's nothing you need to do to get out of it. That's the hard thing for Americans, especially in this space of grief. You know, when I was in the Middle East, we had one of the people that we were working with a Syrian refugee he was he was killed. And when we went to the funeral, I just remember that, you know, the women were wailing that as soon as we walked in the the wife of the Manos killed, just grabbed my wife and just brought her down to her and just wailed with my wife. So it's this, this I am expressing something that I don't think that we're very good at an America that they're expressing this grief that they're saying, I need you with me here and close and that you're just going to be next to me while I am until wailing and crying. And we as Americans like to push it aside. So we're okay I could get through this and I could just do this on my own. How do you start to open yourself up? When it is really hard to let people in? How do you start to open yourself up to let people in to connect one to another? Yeah,

Sarah E. Westfall: 14:47

that's a great question. I think one we can give our selves permission to go slowly. In in our social media culture. I feel like I see the extremes of either people being really fake it, or oversharing in spaces that aren't probably the best places to hold your sacred stories. And so I think that it begins by recognizing people like naming the people who are in your inner circles, you know, who are the people who are already trusted, who are already safe. And I kind of think of it like the gray, a gradient pool or Lake Michigan like allowing yourselves to get go toes first, and then maybe waiting up to your shins, and then up to your knees, and so on. I don't think it's going to feel good at first to be vulnerable. There's a measure of faith involved of of saying this could go either way. But one of the things that I have learned about belonging and the communal life is that I have to be willing to go first, I have to be willing to be the one to dip my toes in the waters first. It doesn't mean I need to dive in headfirst right away, but at least be willing to wait in and gradually allowing the details of our lives like trust, and transparency grow together, I think. And so the more that we can lean into the relationships where there is reciprocity, and where there is trust that does and transparency that builds over time, we will be able then to go deeper with one another. But some, you know, I think that our culture also struggles to go at the pace that relationships require, sometimes we struggle to have the long view. And not to say that we have to, you know, I'm going to pick a friend and be like, okay, 10 years, 10 years from now, you're going to be the one because relationship, relationships, like all life shifts, and things happen. But we can go slowly, keep the long view in mind and not feel like we have to like microwave our relationships, all the time, we cannot control the the welcome that other people extend to us, we just can't. And so when we base our belonging on what other people are offering to us, that's an always a moving target, you know, that that makes our our sense of belonging that is always shifting. Whereas what we do have agency over is the worth that is embedded in our bones, that you know, going back to that Imago Dei, the image of God that is within us, and the God who is always with us. So finding that there. And then what we also have agency over is what we extend to other people, of being willing to posture ourselves and welcome no matter where we are. And being attentive then to the places where community and belonging kind of crops up just in the midst of our everyday lives.

Joshua Johnson: 18:08

I think we're all searching for that, like I am, like, I need this place of belonging inside of myself. Because then when I'm interacting with other people, they're because they're searching for it as well. They see it in you, then you start to find welcome and belonging and others because they want that welcome and belonging as like a cyclical process, it seems like so that that's really helpful to say it has to start inside of us belonging with God, knowing that we are created in His image that our worth is not defined in what we do. What is that process then? Because I go back and forth a lot. I am trying to find my welcome and belonging in other people, and it doesn't work out very well sometimes. And then I go, Okay, I know that it's there in God. What is that process like to go and, like, be in the middle of it?

Sarah E. Westfall: 19:12

I think we're always kind of in the middle of it. So at least recognizing that of saying, you know, things are kind of always shifting. I had a conversation not long ago with my mom who's in her 60s. And she is she has been part of the same church community for I mean, since I was a baby. But now she finds herself. Things have shifted. And she's asking these questions, again, of Where do I belong? I think that if we can think of belonging less as this place of arrival, and more of a way of being in the world, it feels a little bit more settled within us that it's something we carry. But again, I mean, I I am I think I'm a contemplative that grew up in an E van angelical world. And so a lot of the, just the, like practical things that I kind of default to are these more contemplative practices, the the silence and solitude, reflection, asking questions, being willing to just sit and hold the questions without rushing to answers, these are the end and to being really honest with ourselves about what surfaces in our inner landscape as we do interact with the people in our everyday lives. Because I think we are in a culture and a time, where we are very quick to draw boundaries around us versus them. And, and in doing so not only do we distance ourselves from other people, we also put fences and barriers around ourselves, which make it much harder than for other people to reach out to us. It also makes it much harder for us to to find that commonality to find the overlaps in our human experience. I don't know if we can manufacture humility, but I think we can be honest with ourselves, and hope that out of that, God grows humility, you know, human, humility and human have that same root word, you know, we are people of humus of the earth. And the more that we can stay grounded in that way, and growing, and always looking for, you know, not not diminishing ourselves, but having a good understanding of ourselves, that serves us really well, and being able to be settled, not only who we are, but also in who God is, and all the ways that he fills in the gaps. And so really, like, you know, it's so funny I, in writing the way of belonging, there was so much that happened in the process of that, but then, you know, in the book process you like, write the book, and then you have to like, read it again, and then edit it, and then read it again and edit it. And each time I read through, I needed it again. And I think that on some level, you know, belonging is something it's that inner sense. It's not something that can be handed to us. But it's something we have to continue to cultivate and choose to walk in that way. So

Joshua Johnson: 22:30

then in this us versus them world, how can we to, to bridge that that gap between differences and not be a barrier, not be a wall, but then be welcoming, inviting, hospitable? What are some practices for us to be able to bridge that divide?

Sarah E. Westfall: 22:47

Yeah, it's a great question. My favorite way is through stories. If you can get closer to the stories of the people in your everyday lives, you know, we're in a election year. And while it could be like, really sweat producing to think about all of the arguments that could potentially happen with our friends, families, neighbors, I wonder what might happen is, we begin to ask questions like, Well, how did you get there? Like, what what is the story that led you to that belief or idea or decision to vote like help us help me understand how you got there? Not to say that that would necessarily change how we how you know what we do at the end, but at least helps us maintain sight of each other's humanity. And that maybe we hold the same values. You know, my friend, Laurie Wilbert talks about how so often, you know, we're holding the same values, we're just coming at it from different sides. And so getting closer to people's stories help us see that. And if there aren't people in your everyday life, whose experiences differ vastly from you, whether that is socioeconomics, ethnicity, age, location, all of those things, I think that reading is a fantastic way to to peel back the layers of somebody else's experience. And then to believe that that was their true experience, even if it is vastly different from our own. Because I think that if anything, we can build compassion, and see glimpses of ourselves in each other, in in hearing the stories of each other and maybe if you're not a reader, maybe it's you know, documentaries, or maybe it's a movie or something, but we are storied creatures. And the more that we can connect with each other's narratives that only helps break down some of those barriers that we feel really intensely right now.

Joshua Johnson: 24:56

I think story has helped me more than anything else to connect with other People has to share stories, yeah, of our own lives to ask what their story is, I think oftentimes when we go into a place of of difference, and we're connected with somebody that has those vastly different than us have different beliefs, different values, and we just don't know how to connect, we won't know how to connect unless we hear the stories, unless we ask good questions we have unless we are curious about who they are. And then we can know, Oh, these are the places we can connect. We, we are so more alike. And similar than we are different, as humans, like we are all humans, right? In the image of God, we're very similar creatures, but we focus so much on differences. What are some ways to go in two conversations and people to be a question asker? To be curious, how can we start to, to see others and ask them questions?

Sarah E. Westfall: 26:06

That's good. You know, it's kind of hard for me to answer because I think I tend to be a natural question asker, to the probably chagrin of a lot of my teachers and co workers over the years. So it's kind of hard for me to say, Oh, how do you how do you do that? When it's just kind of part of me. I think, again, it goes, I feel like I'm just like beating the same drum over and over. But I think it just goes back to attentiveness to our inner landscape, you know, just beginning by noticing and naming the questions that that surface within us, you know, that might be through the course of a conversation with someone or watching something or listening to a podcast. And then if you have an established relationship with that person, because I think that that is an important part of it. beginning just to voice those questions out loud to say the questions out loud. And again, there's a there's, there's a measure of vulnerability, and that often like to be seen as experts more than question askers. And so there there is humility, just in asking the question, but I think that there's so much room for us to to have commonality in our questions. And so paying attention to them, naming them and then finding people within our, our existing relationships, to ask those questions and begin to explore those together. You know, I say this with my boys all the time, because they'll be you know, they'll be like, you know, you really need ask for forgiveness to your brother and like, I'm sorry, and I'm like, okay, tone matters, the way we say things matters. And so being attentive to it to the tone, being attentive to the way that we ask questions, in that they're open ended and not leading, in that we're not being aggressive, or, you know, we all know those questions have asked of us when we're like, we get defensive, you know, so trying to diminish the defensiveness and our question asking, and just being willing to kind of go slowly, and always giving people permission to say, you don't have to answer this. Like, if, if this? If you'd rather not say then, well, then don't.

Joshua Johnson: 28:27

How do we sort of excavate our own agendas or biases? While we're asking questions? I know growing up, evangelical, there's a lot of things aren't my agenda, when I am asking people questions is to bring them to Jesus like, as is what we have to do. By kids. It's our job. It's our, our duty to do that. How do we start to start to say, Oh, why can't I just ask a question? Because this is a fellow human. And I'm curious, and I walk with them, how can we start to think about our agendas and biases?

Sarah E. Westfall: 29:03

Well, I think that, like recognizing them, and even you know, I relate so much to, to what you said about growing up in a culture that, that I always felt like I had to, like, eventually manufacture this conversation to turn into this, like, Jesus, how can I insert Jesus into this conversation? When I think that when we are asking questions out of love and empathy, and demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit, in our interactions, I think Jesus is already there. And we don't need to do a whole lot more. And I think that in doing so trust, that, that God is there, that he is alive and active and loves that other person, far more than we realize, just as much as He loves us. You know, and it's something I'm still kind of trying to undo You and myself. But I think as much as we can, diminishing the mindset that says it all depends on us. It all, you know, or I have to say again that rightness, I have to say the right thing, when, really we are called to love, we are called to love God, with the fullness of who we are as much as we can, we are called to love other people in the same way. And to me that's really freeing in the midst of these conversations, because I don't have to have an agenda to love.

Joshua Johnson: 30:29

Very briefly the very beginning and you talked about as we're belonging to a God who is also communal, there is this communal aspects of belonging. And when we're in, in groups of people, often there are people that are lonely in the midst of a crowd, they're not connected, they don't feel like they belong. How does this all work? How do we get belonging for an a community? Communal communally? What does that look like?

Sarah E. Westfall: 30:57

Yeah, I love that you you're asking all these how questions and I'm like, the least prescriptive person?

Joshua Johnson: 31:04

Well, that's good. We don't have to be prescriptive. Now, I think, but values and principles will go a long way to help us get these things out. Yeah, well, let

Sarah E. Westfall: 31:16

me tell you what I do. Because I think that that is the most that that is what I can speak to, and what has been incredibly helpful to me in those like, group settings, whether that is, you know, church, or a book club, or the PTA, whatever that looks like, I am one of those people who probably feels most alone alone in a crowd, you know, I'm an introvert, small talk is not generally my jam. And so I can tend to like really cave in on myself in those types of situations. And what I have to do personally, before I even enter that space, is to, to become this kind of reattach myself to the God who is already with me. And I just, you know, pray very simply, like helped me to be a person of welcome, helped me not to cave in on myself, helped me to have that posture that is looking for the, for other people who may feel exactly like I do, and not as the like, Savior type thing, but just in a way of how I approach people and conversations within that room, and being as present and attentive to them, and to what is in the room as I can. So it begins before I even enter that space, of trying to be in that posture of welcome. And then being willing to to be the person that I would want others to be for me, in that space. You know, we don't have to anticipate everybody's personality and needs. That's, that's impossible. But I think that what is common amongst most of us is that we want somebody who's really going to listen, to give to to give each other our full attention, as much as we can not be glancing at the phone or looking around the room or learning each other's names or admitting, hey, I'm really not good with names, I might have to ask you again, I do that almost every Sunday, when we go to services at church, I meet someone new and said, I will ask you again next week, forgive me now. And and so some of it's just really, really basic, but I feel like it's some of the things that we've lost the art of the art of listening, the art of attention, the art of maybe not with everyone, I don't think that we are, I think that we have to know, our own limitations, and especially in different seasons. But maybe there's one person that we say, Hey, do you want to grab coffee? Or hey, I'm going to this thing would you like to come with me, and being willing to get a little uncomfortable in that, and, and take those next steps and they may not go nowhere? There and there was so many times that I don't do that. But I think that the more we are willing to the the more it will be become reciprocal in those spaces as well. To be in the presence of someone who just wants to know who you are. And you asks good questions. Like I can almost feel my shoulders kind of like relax, and like I stop holding my breath because I don't feel like I have to perform. And so the more that we can do that for other people, the more that we can create those communal spaces where we can really then begin to to wade into the deeper waters but I think it has to kind of begin there of of having that that sense of welcome with one another. Is

Joshua Johnson: 34:53

there a there a story from your life where you felt the sense of welcome and you felt like you belonged and Why? Oh,

Sarah E. Westfall: 35:01

that's a good question. Yes. First of all, now I just have to mine, which one, I was just at a writing conference this last week, there's something about being in a room with others who are wrestlers of words, like myself, that one that does not that that is not everyone in the world, like, you know, not everyone processes life through words. And so having that that shared commonality, this last week was really great. But I think I'm thinking of one particular evening, I was in an Airbnb with about four other women. And we all been kind of coming and going, you know, that we didn't necessarily do everything together at the conference. But we came back that evening, and all of us got into sweatpants. And throughout the course of that day, I'd had a lot of small conversations with lovely people. But that was really depleting for me. So that evening, we were able to, to sit, and to slow down. And you know, I just remember, like, again, that that sense of just being able to like, I think the longer we were there, the more I kind of sunk down into the couch, just because I kept becoming more and more comfortable. Because not only, you know, we were just chatting about the conference, but it began to then chat about life, and about things that we are carrying at home, and questions that we were wrestling with having nothing to do with the writing life, you know, even just the postures of the women who are there in listening, of leaning and of asking good follow up questions, even offering affirming words like, you know, either that is really hard, or I see, you know, fill in the blank in you I saw that happened, there was a generosity, it writers could very easily be competitive with one another, especially when it comes to publishing and other things. And what I experienced in that room was generosity, a giving, there wasn't a grasping, and it was really beautiful. And it made me feel welcome to bring the fullness of who I am. And to let my guard down.

Joshua Johnson: 37:25

I could remember those moments that I've had in my life. And that's really helpful. Because I, I'm pretty good at masking up and different situations and pretty good at being a chameleon. Like, as I'm in this group, I could form and fit in this specific group, and I'm in another group, I can form and fit in that group and make myself look like I belong. Is there something that you have done to help you take those masks off to say, Hey, this is who I am. And it's not, I'm still not trying to perform? I mean, this is the thing that we've been getting at this whole time yet. But I think this mask analogy for me is helps go okay, when am I actually putting on the mask? When am I taking it off? And how am I going to do that?

Sarah E. Westfall: 38:16

One thing that has been incredibly helpful to me is to differentiate between authenticity and transparency. So authenticity is is being who we are, you know, being true to ourselves. But transparency is how much of ourselves we reveal. And we do not have to my goal is always to be authentic with people, but not necessarily fully transparent with all people. Because I do think that there are circles of belonging there are, it's okay to have different types of relationships with different people. Because, again, transparency builds with trust over time. If I'm gonna get prescriptive, that's the only one I have. That's the only equation that I have. By differentiating between that authenticity, and transparency, it kind of frees us to not feel like we have to like, show everything all at once or to see how they'll react. If I if I share this opinion, we can go slowly, then we can be true to who we are or sometimes be silent, because we're not sure if we're safe enough yet to say that and that's okay. But it doesn't mean we're not being true to ourselves to be being authentic. Maybe we're just not ready to be fully transparent. And so helping differentiate between those things is really helpful. For me, age just continues to be helpful to me. I'm in my 40s now and you know the gray hairs are coming in all wild. I feel like I'm just continuing to settle a little more in my skin And to own who I am. And so some of that just happens with time, and noticing and naming and saying, Well, this is what we have to work with. So there's a subtleness that happens with that. And I do think the more that we begin to practice showing up with the fullness of ourselves, I think it gets a little easier, not perfect, I can tell you right now a handful of rooms that I feel uncomfortable in that I want to be that Peacock, you know, who's like, you know, trying to go back to that performative based belonging, you said something along the lines of trying to like, mold yourself, to achieve that belonging or mold yourself into something to to belong. And I think it also helps us to remember that fitting in and belonging are not the same to fit in there is a measure of like, molding of changing of morphing of hiding who we are, to, to look like the in group, where as belonging is much more substantial, it is showing up in the fullness of who we are then extending that to other people, except saying, like, You are safe here, you belong. And so it helps to differentiate just between our definitions of those, as well, of saying, Where are the spaces where I really truly belong, and where are the ones that I feel like I need to, like, put on a different jacket, or, you know, smile a certain way, or laugh at the certain jokes in order to, to belong. And when I say to, I want to take the pressure off of all of us to say that we all do that. We all there's, in Jeffrey Cohen, who is a Stanford, professor and social psych researcher, he wrote a book called belonging, and he talks about just the fact that we are all prone to changing aspects of ourselves in order to fit into a group because we find meaning within within groups, we find meaning with each other. And so that's completely normal. I think it's just learning to recognize it. And when it is healthy, when it promotes wholeness. And when it doesn't it,

Joshua Johnson: 42:24

we're in this space. And especially in America, where people there's a lot of depression, there's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of loneliness, we have a loneliness epidemic, like, and we the longing of our heart, as humans is to belong, is to be seen, and known and loved, and just base for who you are, and not in what you do and not in your performance. And I think we have gotten to this place of trying to fit in so much that we've lost sight of who we are, what would you say to the people? Because there are a lot of people right now, who don't feel like they belong? What would you say? What are some some steps? Or what's an encouragement to people that they feel like they don't belong?

Sarah E. Westfall: 43:13

You know, if there's anything that we have in common right now, it's that. So maybe we begin there by just saying, you know, you're not alone in your loneliness. You know, I've read most of the Surgeon General, you know, their their research that they did this last year. And, you know, in this conversation, there's, you and I are in this conversation right now. And the odds say that one of us has felt lonely recently. Listen, for me, it's most days at some point during the day. And so normalizing the fact that we all experienced that. And I think it's helpful to also reframe loneliness. Sometimes I don't love the fact we've called it an epidemic because it feels like a disease. It feels like something that is wrong with us, when I think what loneliness is actually doing is trying to reveal something very good about us longings, for and desires that are God given. But so often, I mean, it still hurts, it's an ache it, there's a lot of ache there. But I think that if we are willing to look at loneliness, and listen to it, to look at the longing beneath, that is going to give us some good indications of what it is that we can begin to, just to to lay out on the table between us and God, but then also to say, what is within my agency to do something about this? What steps can I take to to move closer to someone else? Or, you know, in my marriage, do I have some walls that I've put up and why and how Can we maybe begin to dismantle some of those? Or I don't feel like I fit in my church community anymore? What's going on there and beginning to ask the questions, what is beneath the loneliness? What is the longing or desire beneath it? And then what can I begin to do to explore? or pursue that question that is lying beneath all of it.

Joshua Johnson: 45:27

When I talked to AJ Swoboda recently about his new book on desires, one of the things that I really loved his there is that, you know, desires are God given where it is that Adam had a desire for companionship in the garden before the fall, it's not sinful, to feel lonely. It's not a bad desire to be, you know, because loneliness was there, before sin entered the world. It loneliness was inherent within Adam, and he needed someone else, a fellow human, to be communal with to say, it is us together, we need that we need to say we could step forward and take those steps. And I think that's hard for a lot of people is to be the one who goes first, like you said at the beginning, as you go first. It's a lot. It's pretty difficult. I've spent a lot of time in my life, praying that someone else would go first, that I would say, God, just bring somebody in through my path. Let them go first. Let them initiate conversation with me. Let them see me. And I don't actually take any steps forward. I mean, how have you helped dip the toe in the water? Yeah. How did you help you What helped you go first, I'll

Sarah E. Westfall: 46:46

use an example six years ago, we had been living in Tennessee for a few years and decided to move back to our home state of Indiana. It's kind of strange to move away, kind of you become a different version of yourself, and you move back. And so moving back was I I've, I've really struggled to find my my people. But I knew that I wanted to be one who moves toward other people. And so I decided to start what we now call supper club, and invited about four or five other women at the time. And it was super, super simple. Once a month, we eat dinner together, we have a few questions that we know ahead of time are going, we're going to ask each other. And we just eat and we talk together. And that's been going on now for four years. Took me two years to start the club, by the way, then after that, we've been together for years now and a lot of life has happened. And you know, we only meet together once a month. It's not like we're in each other's lives every day. But a lot of life has transpired. And a lot of trust has been built. And, and so trying to find those kinds of things. And maybe it's a book club, maybe it doesn't have to be like necessarily overtly spiritual or overtly. And it might be to it might be, you know, volunteering to host a small group or it might be some of those things as well. Maybe it's also just noticing that your neighbor takes a walk every day about the same time you do and you say hey, do you want to walk together? And so just noticing and being willing to just try you know, and being open handed with that some things will flop you know, and our even our supper club, who has been at the table has shifted a little bit over the years some some of us have remained the same but there was also been freedom to say this can also be seized a season. And if if it's time for you to go, that's okay too. Binding ways that work within your your current life. Like we don't have to step outside the life we are already living, but look for ways to just take one step closer to other people. Where we already are. Well,

Joshua Johnson: 49:11

sir, this has been fantastic. I just have a couple of quick questions. Absolutely. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give? You

Sarah E. Westfall: 49:21

do not have to try so hard? Like little luck. Yeah, it is funny because I turned 21 six days before we got married. And so I carried so much angst about getting things right doing things right. And I just want to want to take her by the hand and say you can breathe. You don't have to try so hard.

Joshua Johnson: 49:42

Yeah, that's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend Oh, yeah.

Sarah E. Westfall: 49:49

I well. Yes. I have been reading Emily P Freeman's how to walk into a room the art of knowing when to stay and when to walk away. I feel like her or book, I'm not all the way through it. But already I can tell it's going to be a really good friend to my book on the shelf. Because I think that some of the natural next questions when it comes to belonging is the places that we do choose to, to be within or the places that we are within, we don't choose. But we still have to figure out how to how to be in that room. And I find that her her story, and her questions that she offers within the book are really helpful for us in discerning some of those underlying questions that we might carry.

Joshua Johnson: 50:38

Yeah, that's a great recommendation. I love Emily's book. Fantastic. It's helped me a lot. Your book is beautiful, it is well written. And it is, it is lovely. And it is something that it meets a deep longing in the that we have as humans. And so I just really hope that a lot of people go out and get your book and find belonging, or a God and their worth and their value and who they are. And with one another. How can people connect with you get your book? Where would you like to point people to?

Sarah E. Westfall: 51:12

Yeah, probably the one stop shop would be my website, Sarah, e westfall.com. I had to sneak that E in there because there are a million Sara's in the world. I was a stay at board in the 80s. So most of us were Sarah's Sarah e westfall.com. And from there you can find ways to find the way of belonging the book and human together, which is my podcast and substack. And it's I feel like my website is like the airport and you can you know, hop on a terminal or flight from there. Perfect.

Joshua Johnson: 51:47

Yeah, sounds good. Well, Sarah, this was a wonderful conversation. Thank you for opening yourself up. Thank you for sharing some of your story of feeling like you have only done things out of your your worth and your identity was found in what you did. But then you find in it, that you are valuable and you are worthy because of who God made you to be that you have found belonging and connection with other people that you've had to take that first step to move forward towards people to start a supper club to do other other things that you have found these practices that have helped you like silence and solitude even when you do have four crazy boys in the house. So thank you for this conversation. I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed connecting with you. So thank you.

Sarah E. Westfall: 52:39

Absolutely. You too.