Ep. 194 Karl Martin - Living and Leading From a Deeper Place

I have seen a lot of bad leadership out there. I know that there is a better way and a way to lead from all of who we are that builds people, gives voice to others, and empowers people in such a way that we can accomplish what God has entrusted us. In this conversation, Karl Martin talks about leading from a deeper place. Leading from the soul. Through the framework of the cave – the quest of the true, the road – the way of the brave, the table – the art of the kind, and the fire – the pursuit of the curious we can be whole hearted people that lead well. So join us as we enter the cave, the road, the table, and the fire.

After twenty-five years of building organizations and teams to their potential, Karl Martin founded Arable in 2020 from his home surrounded by Scottish countryside and farmland. Taking inspiration from its surroundings, Arable creates and cultivates bespoke and winning ecosystems for leaders and organizations to grow and flourish. He coaches leaders at some of the biggest and most influential companies in the world, like Toyota, NBCUniversal, X (formerly Twitter), Joe Gibbs Racing, Saatchi & Saatchi, to name a few. He divides his time between the U.S. and Scotland. He's married to Niki and they have 4 grown daughters.

Karl's Book:
The Cave, The Road, The Table, The Fire

Karl's Recommendation:
The Enneagram Guide to Waking Up


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Transcript

Karl Martin: 0:00

Unless you're able to address these things on a regular basis, seasonally, you can end up, you can end up with yesterday's vision, yesterday's dream leading yesterday's people to yesterday's destination. Because the reality is, God is always on the move. And his his call is a dynamic call. And the world in which we're living in right now is changing faster than we've ever changed. And so you had better continue to ask the question of yourself, and God is this still the right place at the right time with the right processes?

Joshua Johnson: 0:50

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcasts in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, our show is powered by you, the listener, if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides, and more go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Pete Gregg, Jamie Winship, and Scott Rudin. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Carl Martin. After 25 years of building organizations and teams to their potential. Carl Martin founded arable in 2020 from his home, surrounded by Scottish countryside, and farmland. Taking inspiration from its surroundings arable creates and cultivates bespoke and winning ecosystems for leaders and organizations to grow and flourish. He coaches leaders from some of the biggest and most influential companies in the world, like Toyota, Toyota, NBC Universal X, formerly Twitter, Joe Gibbs, racing Saatchi and Saatchi just to name a few. He divides his time between the US and Scotland. He is married to Nikki and they have four grown daughters. I have seen a lot of bad leadership out there, I know that there is a better way and a way to lead from all of who we are, that builds people gives voice to others and empowers people in such a way that we can accomplish what God has entrusted us. In this conversation, Carl Martin talks about leading from a deeper place, leading from the soul through the framework of the cave, the quest of the true the road, the way of the brave the table, the art of the kind, and the fire, the pursuit of the curious, we can be wholehearted people that lead well. So join us as we enter the cave, the road, the table, and the fire. Here's my conversation with Carl Martin. Carl, welcome to shifting culture excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.

Karl Martin: 3:31

Thank you. It's

Joshua Johnson: 3:32

good to be with you. Your new book, The Cave, the road, the table and the fire, I think is fantastic. The subtitle is leading from a deeper place. So it's it's really about soul leadership leading from your soul and moving out into the world. I know that probably this is not a fly by the seat of your pants work. This is pretty deep. And it is something that I would assume took a lifetime of learning for you. Yeah, what was your, your individual journey to realizing that the soul is so important to leadership?

Karl Martin: 4:11

Yeah, I'm fascinating. I mean, I, I grew up in the church, my father was a pastor, I kind of did my little rebellion thing against I'm never doing that stuff. And, and I ended up leading a church for 25 years. And during that period of time, you know, it's like any kind of career if you can call it a career or a career you have this, you know, moments when you're in the zone and it's it's flow moments when you know exactly why you're there and what you're supposed to be doing, and moments when you're just putting one foot in front of another. And I guess what I learned over the period of time, was that it's really easy to be the one at the front telling everyone the vision and sharing the concepts and ideas And to lose a little bit of yourself in the process. And as I began to reflect on on all of that stuff, I realized that this is a huge, the truth is the truth, right is universal, whether you have faith, or don't have faith, that leadership is a person, before it's ever a project or process. And that the health and quality of your personhood and therefore your leadership is essential for for the organization, and then for the culture around that organization. And unless you tend to it, unless you tend to your physical, emotional, spiritual health, then you end up in a place usually accidentally, that you never meant to get to, which was, which is pitching things that you're not sure you understand anymore. And losing a sense of self and soul in the process. So, so this, this book is really, I think it's essential for our moment, I think is essential for the church's moment. But it was definitely essential for me to do some digging and say, what is truly going on here? And what is it feeling like to be the other side of me? And how can I address all causes in myself first before I start preaching, and others,

Joshua Johnson: 6:22

so if the project is is you the project is, is the leader, and we have to do that inner work before we have that, that strategy and vision and move forward. Because if we don't do that inner work, that strategy is going to get all messed up and screwed up. And it's going to veer off in different directions. Yeah. What does it look like then to start out to do that work of the self to go deep inside? Which I think you start with the cave, the quest of the true, what is it like to start to go deep in there?

Karl Martin: 7:02

I guess the things that you are aware of you have choices around the things that you are unaware of control you. So it starts with self awareness, it starts with saying, what is it really like to be me, or what is it really like to strip off the masks that I use to play the games that I play, to be comfortable in my own skin, aware of who I truly am before God, and, and then to play the role that I'm supposed to play? One of the one of the exercises I talked about in the book is, it's very simple, as I think everything should be, but it's, it's, it's an exercise about getting to godly impact. And I think it has a ladder approach to it. I think, if you can't start with honesty, you'll get nowhere. And honesty is if you truly knew me, Joshua, if you knew everything I ever thought and everything I ever did, we wouldn't be talking right now. You know, you wouldn't want to know, you wouldn't want me to lead you because we're all broken. We live in a broken world, and we're totally broken. The counter and equal truth is we're all beautiful. In fact, that's the greater truth we created in the image of a God who loves us, and his forests. And the potential innocence is huge. Starting from that place of deep honesty and saying, This is who I am, before we ever start putting masks on and showing up in different ways. And then of course, huge honesty, ladders up into humility. Humility, I think counter to what most bumper sticker preachers will tell you. Humility is not thinking less of yourself or even thinking of yourself less. It's thinking correctly about yourself. You know, this is Romans 12, do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment. And then, you know, Paul goes on to describe all the gifts if you're a leader lead if you're, if you're a helper, help, you know all this kind of all these things. In other words, think humility is thinking correctly about yourself. It's getting to a place of centeredness and saying, I am brilliant at these things, and I'm absolutely crap at these things. And, and, and I'll probably carry some of that throughout my life. And then there's up into wisdom. You know, we're living in a world where knowledge is free. Because of because of this lien, which isn't a whole other conversation that we can have. And but wisdom is rare. And, and I think Joshua, that wisdom in its simplest form is what is mine to do, because of who God made me to be. What is someone else's to do and therefore I ought to butt out and and equip them. And there is God's to do because God can do that. And I think if you if you follow that process, and begin to think through Who am I what am I for? How am I supposed to be experienced, you end up with the kind of impact that you really want But of course, if you just try and have impact without those things, you end up with nefarious impact. Yes, that was, that was a long response. No,

Joshua Johnson: 10:09

I like long responses. That's good. And I think that nefarious impact, we're seeing that all over, that we're not going to the, to the deep part of ourselves and knowing who we truly are. And it's a long process to really find out who I mean, who I am as a person, I've, you know, my whole life. Early on career, I've masked up, I've tried to be a chameleon in different spots, I've tried to find my identity and value in my relationship to other people, and how I stack up other people. And it wasn't until I've done that deep work of, okay, let's strip those things away. And uncover what God says about me and who I truly am and what he has put inside of me. So we're influenced by the people around us and second ourselves up, but most of that is my inner self talk. That is, like, bringing me down. Yep. How do I start to disrupt the the self talk that I have been growing up with, but and then move towards a different way of thinking and a new way of thinking, so that I could live into a better space?

Karl Martin: 11:22

Yeah, I mean, I think you're right, I think, you know, in the book, I, I'm a complete geek for personality profiles and, and tests, and I love them. But I think none of them are the truth, that they're all lenses. They're all ways of seeing yourself which are, which can be helpful, until it becomes your label, you know, you're not you're not an ENFP, or a red yellow thingy or a three with a two or, you know, what you are not that you are way more than that. It's way more complex than that. And, but you might be much more the experiences that you've had the wounds that you carry, the beliefs that you imbibed, whether you filtered them or not, the influence the influences that the voices that were spoken into your life and continue to speak into your life, I think, I think there's, there's a lot of fertile ground for working out how you show up in those kinds of conversations. And, you know, I mean, it just wanted to get back to one of the things you said earlier, I totally believe you have to do your work. But I, I'm more than that, I believe you have to be doing your work. Because I feel like you know, we have this mantra where Go do your work. And now you can go lead and you're fine, right? You got the wound healed and you got the things that over you that you reject. Now Now you're good. The problem is that all the good stuff leaks out of us, and all the pressures of the world that we're in right now a greater than I think they've ever been for leaders. And, and so we have to, it's like a dynamic process, which is why I wrote which is why I read the code, the road the table on the fire, because that becomes a daily rhythm and pattern for us to get centered right. So that we might continue to be the project. So I do think you know, you it does involve some deep searching and some digging, and you know, why do I believe that And is it true? Where did that come? Where did that overreaction come from? Why am I triggered by that kind of person? Why do I tend to over swing react against yesterday's dysfunction with today's equal and opposite dysfunction? What do I do that what's going on in my life because the moment we become aware of what we do and even call it a name and sometimes even laugh at it, is the moment it loses some of the hold over us and power and then we can begin to go oh, I this is that and now I'm taking responsibility for what I do with that. So that's that's part of the process. And

Joshua Johnson: 14:00

then you know as as we're doing that we're finding out what is true who we are our our soul, and we're starting to lead out of that we move into daily what is our road what is ours to have? What's that? The the bag that is ours, right? To to carry,

Karl Martin: 14:19

you really read the book,

Joshua Johnson: 14:21

I have read the best girl I've dug into the book. And I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna probably read the book with other people and we're gonna go through it because it's fantastic. It's really good. So I think what is our scary to move and it's the way of the brave and I think, you know, fear is the thing that that holds us back a lot. We encourage bravery to move into the the road space. I think is is really important. How do we start to figure out okay, this is mine to carry. That's not mine. I could put that down. Let other people deal with it, or that's nobody's to carry, and therefore, this is the thing I needed to give to God. Yeah, that's good.

Karl Martin: 15:08

Well, I think the first the first way, the first way to address this is the concept that passivity is the enemy of everything good in your life. So the concept of I can just sit here, let go, let God that humility drives me into a space where things can happen, at me, isn't, is a recipe for non leadership, it's a recipe for abdication. And it's a recipe for actually, ultimately not being true to who God called you to be and how God called you to operate on this planet. So you have to acknowledge that, that, you know, you've got to move, you know, I one of the illustrations that I use is very simplistic, but you cannot steer a car that is stationary, try, try moving the wheel, right, the moment is moving, it becomes very easy, particularly fiscal powers theory, right. And so suddenly, you can move the thing. So so, you know, the first thing is, you've got to move, you've got to move. Now the direction you move in, you know, and once again, this is dynamic, but I use a very simple triangle illustration, where I talk about three points, that you're trying to triangulate what what moves you, what fits you and what fills you? And the movement piece is really dreams and complaints. What gets you out of bed in the morning? What keeps you up at night? It's, it's, it's designed to enable what you do to be meaningful. You know, what do I do beyond just showing up to work and getting a paycheck? What fits you is, is about working out, you know, what do what do I do better than 100? people I know. Now, fascinatingly, when I coach people in the UK, they have to ask 10 friends that question, right? In the US, they've got 10 answers, right? I do this better. I do that better. I do the next thing that and and that's designed to be quite forensic and say so because I want to get to your your unique contribution, I don't just want to get to things you're pretty good at, I want to get to why are you on this planet. And then of course, the piece that we often miss, particularly in corporate America, we miss off to our detriment, is what fills us. Because you don't want just that something to be just meaningful and useful. You need it to be sustainable. So if I can't show up to work, or to life, or to church, or to whatever, I feel God's calling me to, and find a deep joy in it. Which doesn't mean by the way, that every day I'm happy. That's not the point. It's just I can't if I can't find a deep joy in what I'm doing that fills me up, then it's not going to be sustainable. I'm going to quit pretty quickly, or at least I'm going to quit my heart. So yeah, it's about finding and by the way, that the the centering point is not a point. It's the it's not a needle in a haystack, it might be the hate, it might be the haystack. Because though because the will of God is both dynamic and permissive. You know, so what what I put into that circle, my purpose statement, if you like, or my unique contribution, it changes. It's not the same as it was a year ago or five years ago, because I change and the world changes. So yeah, so it's designed to say, what, what is that thing you're shooting for? And then it's designed to say, Well, if that becomes my Yes. How do I defend it with 1000? Notes?

Joshua Johnson: 18:33

How do you how do you deal with a changing purpose? A saying my unique contribution is different than it was five years ago. Now, how do we know that we're dynamic and we change? And say we're still leading the same organization, or we're in that the same position? You know, what? What changes when we change on the inside and our purpose in our contribution shifts? Yeah, well,

Karl Martin: 19:06

I'm not 100% Sure what changes but I do know this, that unless you are able to have these conversations, unless you're able to address these things on a regular basis, seasonally, you can end up you can end up with yesterday's vision, yesterday's dream leading yesterday's people to yesterday's destination. Because the reality is, God is always on the move. And his his call is a dynamic call. And the world in which we're living in right now is changing faster than we've ever changed. And so you had better continue to ask the question of yourself and God, is this still the right place at the right time with the right processes? It's a you will have seen them, I think it's called the sigmoid curve, a way in which an organization you know, grows, grows, grows, and then play toes. I think God understood that way before Mr. sigmoid, if he is even a person probably isn't the person is, before anyone else recognize that, and I think that's why there were seasons, I think that's why there were seven years of this, and seven years of that, and another seven years of the other. And, you know, I feel like, too many people stay doing the same old things. Because they haven't asked themselves some really deep questions around the call of God on their life at this moment in time, it becomes very easy for them, they get into a comfort zone, they get into a groove, and and they're not willing to be disrupted, or to disrupt the system in order to get to the next thing that the Lord is calling them to.

Joshua Johnson: 20:46

As they're coaching people, then how do you bring that disruption for them to deal with these things? And to wrestle with?

Karl Martin: 20:55

Just shouted them a lot, Joshua? Why No, I think I think I think generally people know, right, and they the brave, the brave thing, is coming face to face with reality. And most people don't want to coach and don't want accountability. And don't want to a team of elders or leaders around them asking him these kind of questions, because they're uncomfortable questions. But we also know that the way we've grown in our life is through discomfort and failure. In other words, we don't, we don't, you cannot grow in a comfort zone, you can heal in a comfort zone. And you can rest in a comfort zone there, there are good and helpful places to be for those things. But But part of the call of God on our life is for us to grow is for us to increasingly become the person that was my thesis and its discipleship. increasingly become the person walk with Jesus looked like Jesus. And so if that's true, that only really happens in what psychologists call liminal space, it happens in off balance space happens in thresholds space where we're moving from one concrete reality into another concrete reality. And so, sometimes that's forced upon us pandemic, you get fired, you know, someone dies, some but but but when it is not being forced on us, we have to force it upon ourselves, if we really want to grow, so you have to put yourself in places, you know, which is why one of the I'm always asking my clients, what are you reading that you disagree with? Who are you listening to that you find heretical? You know, because otherwise, you're basically living in an echo chamber. And we're just reinforcing our, our own, sometimes dysfunctional ideas and thoughts about something. Do we trust God? Do we trust ourselves? And do we trust the process of what God is taking us through? To shake us a little bit? You know, and I think I think that's true, actually, about leadership as a whole. I think the way in which, which is on once again, whatever in the book, you know, the way in which we have thought about leadership and done, leadership is broken, our leadership has been proven to be broken again, and again, and again, you know, it's not just that we suddenly know that people have behaved badly and leadership is that there is seems to be increasing amounts of people falling and have fallen, which tells us something is broken. So we have, we have to ask ourselves some really uncomfortable questions, which become very personal about how we're leading, and what we're thinking about leadership.

Joshua Johnson: 23:45

I think a lot of people when they think of a leader, or they think of, you know, a top leader in places, or you think of you as an executive coach, and you're, you're coaching, you know, top level executives around the world, you also have people in your life that are into you. And you're, you're receiving from others. Yeah. So as we lead, what's the importance of receiving as well, that we're not just leading from now, the books that we read, or now the podcasts or listen to, but we actually have people walking with us?

Karl Martin: 24:24

Yeah. Well, if you don't, you become intellectually and spiritually obese. If you're not pouring yourself into somebody, you're just being filled, you know, so it's this kind of constant dynamic, where, I mean, I talk in the book about three people you need in your life, someone you sit at the feet of someone who's walked further than you, someone who you give permission to say, tell me how it is. Tell me what I should be doing. Tell me. So it's less it's sometimes even less of a of a coach and more of an advisor or a consultant. I need a consultant in my life. Some would say carb, what are you doing, you don't have to run a business, do it this way. You need people you look in the eye of you. So you need, I need friends who know me completely, and can call me an idiot when I'm being an idiot, and I won't punch him in the face, you know, because because we have that kind of relationship. And then you need people you pour yourself into with, otherwise you'd become obese, because people are pouring themselves into you. And, and you need to be able to have that cycle happening in your life. But I think more than that, are sure I think, the posture of curiosity, the posture of every day is a school day. Everything can be learned from, I'm not the finished product, that the you know, the day I stopped learning will be the day I die. Is he's so profound. And so it's such a humble approach. That I think it would, in and of itself, and there are plenty of other things that we need to do. In and of itself, it's a significant answer to some of the leadership crisis we face right now.

Joshua Johnson: 26:08

Yep. Yeah, that's really good. Let's move into the table and the way of the art of the kind is what you you call it right. So what is sacred? What is kindness? What is connection at the table? And what does it look like to then have this, the people the, the pack, that we're running with, to pour into them at a table, and to have it dynamic? And it's not just, you know, one into many, but there's that there's a table in front of us?

Karl Martin: 26:42

Yeah. What I mean, I, there's something very vulnerable, about sitting at a table, and just breaking bread. You know, it's not just the Christian tradition that believes that it's, it's, it's a, it's a human nature thing is the way we're created, the fact that I can break bread with my enemy, it's the fact that I can drink wine with my friends. There, it's a very leveling environment, where I'm not standing on a stage telling people what to think I'm sitting at a table and we're having a conversation. By the way, you don't need you don't need a table for that. I, I, I totally believe that the best way to communicate anyway, you know, when, when I was leaving a church, we rearranged everything to be in the round. And, you know, we had a very large congregation, and we had everyone staring at each other. Not just because it was cool, and lots of people were doing it, but because because this is a conversation that we are having with one another. And the art of great communication, is, it's not about me, telling you what I think, and you responding to that, it's about me getting in the middle of the conversation you're having with yourself, and being able to help you interpret it. And so the table is very much that it's it's, it's how do we have? How do we create a safe place to have dangerous conversations that could really change the trajectory of our lives? And how do we create a band of brothers and sisters, where we can talk about things that are meaningful for us? And, you know, I talk a lot about in the book, so

Joshua Johnson: 28:31

Wow, that I mean that that reminds me of Vir, your support challenge matrix. Do as we're leading teams, you're having safe places to have dangerous conversations, we're moving, you're challenging to move out to be brave, and to to get there. And then we have some support and care. What does that look? What's that matrix? And what does that look like?

Karl Martin: 28:54

What I mean, it's very simple. And it's been used by multiple people. So I can't claim it's mine. And but, but I use it a lot. And I find it really helpful in almost every space. It's just a matrix of support and support and challenge. High support and high challenge is the box that we're trying to aim for. It's it's where all great parenting happens. It's where all great leadership happens. And you know, of course, it's where Jesus operates. Right? So John, chapter one, Jesus came full of grace and truth, high support, high challenge. And his, his, his discipling of his followers, his leadership was always those two things together at the same time, you know, it's never it's never truth unless his grace truth, and there's no grace unless it's truth, grace, and it's always this calibration between come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden, Go into all the world preach and teach and make disciples and it's, it's this kind of dynamic, and the truth is The truth is the truth. You know, that's that's how you grow a great team. That's how you grow a great organization. And you know, and the problem is that most organizations don't operate there. I mean, I use, I use a little thing in the book where I talk about the fact that the word company means bread fellow, from the original Latin and then French. And there's something really powerful about the people who really experienced the calibration between support and challenge, grace and truth, safe and stretch, are the people who are truly able to be vulnerable enough to sit with one another. And to break bread. It's a it's a true company. And so that's what we're operating at. And I get people to work out where they operate as a leader, the journey they need to make. And

Joshua Johnson: 30:51

so what is the the journey itself where I come comfortable, safe supporting organization, but we're not taking many risks, and we're not, you know, moving towards the challenge. For people in that space right now, what is the journey to get into an empowering organization?

Karl Martin: 31:13

Will you eat, you need to recognize that the straight shot is never a shot you can take you can't take a straight road from a culture of protectionism, and high support and almost no challenge. The moment you raise any challenge, it feels like you lowered support, right? And so then people, you know, want to go back to Egypt, because we had garlic and onions in Egypt, because it's really hard in the desert. Right? And the truth is that you didn't, you didn't lower support, you just gave them metrics. You said, there are goals here, you said, you have to show up at certain times. And when I asked you to deliver something, you have to deliver it. By the way, that's also kind. Because clear is kind, you've given them boundaries. And you said, this is what it looks like to operate in our organization, I'm growing, you're helping us get to the promised land. And so the challenge is, is a journey. And it's a journey people don't want to take because it becomes difficult. People don't like change. No one likes change. The only people who like you know that. You only like the only You only like the change you like, right? You only like the change, you Institute, any change that comes at you guy that it's difficult. And so yeah, it looks like that. And of course, reverse is true. If you're in a toxic driven environment where it's all about results. Yeah, in order to get to the promised land, you have to raise support, you have to help people feel loved and include it. And, and the truth is, that's gonna feel sucky for a time because we used to get things done around here. And now we stop on a Friday for beer and pizza. What even is that? You know, but but it's a strategic plan to get you to a better place with its kindness. It's a kindness for you, the organization and for the return on investment. So, yeah, it's just, uh, yeah, that's, that. That's the reality of it. Let's

Joshua Johnson: 33:07

get it's a journey. And we could, and we could step into that, and you can help people. What is the group dynamics at the table look like? What does it look like for people having dangerous conversations? If you say the tables for a safe place for dangerous conversations? How does does a leader or someone facilitating those conversations help bring about fruitful conversation and not detrimental conversation where it just devolves into polarization and argument and disarray?

Karl Martin: 33:42

Yeah, with difficulty. You know, really, because we're living in a polarized world where everything, everything that you get on here is pushing you towards an extreme in the way in the way in which you think and everything is being fed to you as an echo chamber. So you're being continually driven in the direction of your current thinking. So it's very rare, which makes it very important that we have tables tables, where people have different views. You know, because if you cannot get the it's why canceled culture is so understandable and toxic. You know, if if we can't have a divergent and maybe even offensive view and air it, we push that view underground, no one can air it in public. It cannot be honed, corrected, pushed back on. People can't learn. There's not there's no redemptive conversation that can happen. And so we we push people further and further and further to the, to the edges of our culture in our society. So that was a big part of conversation. But but so you, but but the skill and art of laying a table, the skill and art of curating great questions, the skill and Out of listening to listen, as opposed to just listening to respond and make a better point. The creating a framework, which enables freedom, because freedom happens within frameworks. So I talk about no soapboxes. You know, you might have a strong opinion, but you're not here to preach and tell us seven reasons why this is true. No experts. I don't need anyone saying, Well, I've studied this in 17 different ways. And therefore this is the answer, because it just shuts down debate and conversation. And no conclusions. We're not here. When we when we create a table for a conversation. We're not here to say, although it's very tempting to put a bow on it and say, therefore, we agree, these three things are true. And then we're going to all behave in this way, not trust the process, trust the people and trust the conversation. So yeah, there needs to be some rules about the way in which we, but but it's the art of it, it's really about the leadership of the table. How do I, how do I create an environment that's comfortable enough? That allows for free flow conversation? And doesn't shut down people or belittle them? Because if you do that, once you've done it forever, they will feel that way forever.

Joshua Johnson: 36:19

And if we walked through that, and we get into the fire, the pursuit of the curious and curiosity, reflection, examining what has been been happening? What's the what's the fire conversation for us in the curiosity that we need to instill?

Karl Martin: 36:36

Yeah. So I think I think the fire conversation is my attempt at helping those who may or may not have faith, to practice something akin to the examine, how do I examine this day? And glean from it the things I need to glean, dismissed the things that need dismissed and take into tomorrow, the things that are valuable to me into the world. Or the statements I make is every experience that remains unprocessed, stays unlearned, so good for good, good, bad or ugly, if I'm not able to process it, I am in danger of Groundhog, repeat, rinse and repeat days. So I don't grow my my, my day becomes a never ending circle of true brief, unkind, maybe. But it never becomes true or braver and kinder, because I don't employ curious why did I think that? Why am I offended by that? Why did I behave in that way? What what did I learn from today? How can I build on that? And so it's it really is a reflection, and maybe a journaling? Or the fire I think is a profound symbol, because maybe, maybe this is just me, maybe it's maybe it's particularly male, I don't know. But there's something about it might be particularly male, I think it would be but there's something about the fact that when we're not looking in the whites and one another's eyes, but we're poking a fire, or opening a barbecue, or us standing shoulder to shoulder rather than face to face, there is truth that comes out of us. Which if we can, if we can really apply that truth, it becomes it become becomes they become force multipliers for us. And Greg good can catalyze something incredibly good for us. So the fire is an attempt to kind of wrap the day up, and and learn and growth from it.

Joshua Johnson: 38:33

So then take us into a day, then how do we utilize the cave? The round the table on the fire

Karl Martin: 38:39

each day? No. Yeah, I've tried. I tried to be non non prescriptive, but to give descriptions. So and the reason for that is, I don't think we are products, we're not labels, we are all very different. And we have different, you know, my wife is fantastic. In the evenings. Don't try and get us do much. You know, we don't try and engage a challenging conversation with her at seven o'clock in the morning, right? Whereas I'm the opposite, right? I'm, I wake up and I'm Go, go go. In the evening, you might not get much sense out of me. And so we're all individual, we have different ways of operating. My play is that if you don't face yourself, first thing in the morning and get ahead of the day, the day will get ahead of you. So you know your day will move in the direction of your thoughts. Because that's the way the brain works and operates. So I wake in the morning, and I attempt to get ahead of my day. Who am I what am I for let's remind myself of truth. You know, if you're a believer, you want to be in scriptures. And you want to be in prayer if you're in No, you still need to be cognizant of the fact that if you don't get ahead of this day, this day will dictate to you what happens in your day. So the cave is a chair for me, it's chair that you might want, I'm in Scotland is a chair by a log burning stove, overlooking a vast garden. When I'm in Dallas, it's a desk in my bedroom. The road is an alarm. For me. It's just it's it's an interruption. It's a disruption. It's because however good you were in the cave, this world and it's thought patterns are invidious. And its busyness and it's hurry that they come at you. And it's very rare that I'm not distracted from my cave affirmation, by the time I get to midday, so that it's really just an a, an arresting an attempt for me to respond, rather than react to what comes at me. The the table is just, I, I don't want to live my life with a plate on my lap watching a screen. I want to live my life, curating the space between those who I'm doing life with. And so it's an attempt at some point in the day, usually, towards the end of the day, to be able just to process the day, what was good, what was bad, what did you learn, and just to listen, and you know, nothing, in the words of my 22 year old daughter, nothing that deep inside ID dad, which is usually a response to me when, when she's done something that she thinks is really deep or, or she thinks I'm over exaggerating or dramatize, it's not that deep. But you know, it really isn't that deep, it's just an attempt to create and, and hold the space for the kind of conversations that could be helpful. And then the fight the fire is whatever it needs to be. But it's it is, you know, once again, if I'm home in Scotland, it might, it might be a hard word, fire in the grate, or it could be a fire pit on the hill. Or it might just be, you know, a journal opened up, and three thoughts scribbled down, and a resolve to do something about something that I experienced during that day. But it is a way to wrap the day up and not allow it to just accidentally bleed into tomorrow.

Joshua Johnson: 42:22

Now, as I was on a walk, reflecting on your book, and leadership and leadership with the soul, I think I was I was thinking about poor leadership, and poor leadership looks like a, I'm going to challenge people, I am the the head leader, I'm going to challenge them, we're going to go on this road, things are gonna come at us, we're going to be frenetic, and we're going to get after it. And then you know, the table to would just be a group of people trying to do what I want them to do. And then to get them in different spaces. And I don't see a lot of the cave in the fire and poor leadership, I don't see the pursuit of truth of leading out of who we are, who God has called us to be, and instilled in us and the fire of examining what's happening today being curious about how to, to move in different ways. And so those those two elements that provide a space for us to live in the world and a place for us to live in the world, which I really, really appreciate. Going deeper into into those aspects of what it looks like to live out. Yeah, from your soul, as those were fantastic frameworks to think through.

Karl Martin: 43:39

Well, there was up there's someone that I think you, you may know, called John Peterson, who once visited me and I was in the middle of a relatively relative accident, existential crisis about my leadership. And this was probably 1010 years ago. And he did what he would always do. He'd said something like, You're right on time. You're right on time. And, and I think what he was was what he was talking about, and I've used this quite a lot with a number of the clients that I coach, I think I think there are two seasons of a leaders life. Season number one where you learn to be a parent to children. In other words, where you learn to be a leader who creates a followership, you create 1000 followers, you have an idea and a vision and a plan is this is a good season, by the way, it's not a bad season. You know what you're doing, you know what you're going after you call people around, you gather people around you, and they want to be a little like you and they want to follow you they become a few like your disciples. But season number two is when you learn to be a father to father or a parent to parents. And so instead of growing 1000 followers, you grow 1000 leaders. Now, to my mind, that's when you get into really healthy leadership. My job is not to be Oregon. It's to be Gandalf. Right? It's it is it It's not I, my job is not to take everyone's, you know, ring to Mount Doom. My job is to equip as many people as possible to run with their ring to go after their stuff. And if you start pushing yourself in that way, it's very difficult to imagine doing that from being the one always on the stage, or from being the one always with the answer, or for being the one making statements, or rather than asking questions, my job is to release everyone else into their best leadership life. And that I think that's a posture that we we miss an awful lot in the leadership journey. But I don't know how you have that posture unless you have an eternity perspective.

Joshua Johnson: 45:45

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's, it's really good. And it's necessary and needed. So as your fathering fathers, your parents and parents, if you're coaching, executive leaders, top executive leaders, and give me example of how this framework has helped shift the culture of an Executive leader and their team and their organization. Yeah.

Karl Martin: 46:13

Well, I won't name any names. But but but but you know, it's fascinating to me that exactly the same, that this stuff is fractal. I gave this book to someone that was quite nervous about giving the book to someone who, who didn't really have any, I didn't have the same faith that that that I have, let's put it that way. And they, I thought they would really disliked the book to two kinds of soul ish. They loved it, right. And now read it twice, recommending it to a whole bunch of other people. And but they came on a call with me and said, this isn't a leadership look. And I, I was like, devastate if you spent three years writing a leadership book, you know, he said, it's a book about being a great person. This is a book and I and I realized, actually, that that's true, but it's fractal, right? If you create great people, they become great leaders. Leadership is the greatest human gift. The ability to influence yourself and influence others for good. The greatest thing that the Lord has gifted us with is the ability to do that. If you create great leaders, you create teams, healthy teams, if you create healthy teams, you create healthy organizations. And if you have healthy organizations, you end up making a dent in the culture around you. So it's, it's totally fractal. And it works. Whether you're leading in a large automobile manufacturing company, or a media company, or the Church of Jesus Christ, or just as an individual trying to lead their family, it works because these universal qualities are the qualities of great people and the qualities of great leadership. And so it's fascinating that when we when we ladder, this up to what it looks like to be a great team. We talk about trust, truth and Integrity and Authenticity, builds trust, let's talk about trust. Trust is the currency of teams. Great teams, we talk about purpose. So you know, brave ladders up to purpose. What are we? What are we for? What are we shooting at? What's what's the what's the greatest imaginable challenge for us? We talk about kindness and connection. And that's the one that I felt would not land and lands all over the place. You It's fascinating, fascinating. And then curiosity. Well, it's creativity is development. It's how do we develop our people? It's how do we, how do we, how is every day school day for us as an organization? How do we how do we not become stagnant? And I'm finding that these things land again and again and again, with people and you know, is fascinating, sitting in boardrooms, having conversations about what trust really is, and whether you trust one another, and that you can't really trust one another unless you know, the color of each other's sofas. So let's talk and let's talk about family, and finding people actually removing the false barriers between my work life, my home life, my spiritual life, my it's just a life. And and I think that's, I mean, it's gonna sound grandiose, but I think I think it is the potential of changing the way in which we think about what we do for most of our life. And I think it has the potential of creating a new generation of leaders. What one of the things that we're doing with arable is starting a foundation of either one, C three, because I desperately, desperately, desperately want to teach these truths to the 1516 1720 year olds. Because we don't do it. We don't teach leadership leadership should be the first thing on the agenda. at every school, how do I lead myself? How do I lead other people? And we we allow it to be accidentally caught by people at the stage when they need it later on in their careers. So I want that to be happening throughout throughout our world, because I think, you know, I think Jesus, Jesus perfect leadership. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 50:19

my dad, my dad started a Christian school district, in, you know, in the Seattle area. And one of the things that you start is impact leadership. And so it's, it's all about teaching leadership for those young young kids, so I know my dad's listening right now, because he listens to everything to this podcast. But this, I think, would be fantastic for these young kids to be able to walk through that. And I'm thankful for people like my dad, who has said, hey, it's important that we teach these things to young people, so that we can have in a different world that our civilization can be different and changed in that there could be as you talked all the way at the beginning of your book, that our our character can can change the, the civilization, what is etched upon us, as we lead from our soul. So yeah, I love this. And I'm thankful that people are gonna take it and run with it. And hopefully, you could be able to teach it to people like that. That'd be fantastic. Really good. You know, one of the things that, you know, I was, was wondering about within leadership as stability within uncertainty, because I mean, that's our world right now, our world is very uncertain. And we're, we're scared. And so we're dealing with people's fears. We're dealing with uncertainty, we're dealing with, with frenetic things coming at us all the time. And we have to be adaptable, as you said early. The culture is fast, and we have to shift and change. What do you think this has to say to our uncertain culture? And how we can walk through it together? Through a healthy leadership?

Karl Martin: 52:17

Yeah. What I mean, it's a stack of things. And the thing that comes to mind, top of mind is people cannot come to peace by forcing people to come to peace. You can't give someone peace. Only I mean, that Scripture, Jesus can write, but I can't, I can't, I can't give you peace. If if you're in the moment of dreadful uncertainty about your life, your career, your family, or whatever else because of this volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous world that we're living in right now. Which by the way, is not going to get any calm. It's going to become busier and more chaotic. How do I help you get to peace? I don't help you get to peace by announcing hope. Which is what I think we do very often, for good reason. Christian leaders a worst of the worst of this, by the way, don't worry, God's still on the throne. You know, pandemic, no one panic if we're going to come out of this better than we ever did. Well, who gave you the right to say that? Right. And all you did when you said that is you drive people into loss and fear in a greater way, because they don't believe you. And so, the I think what we can offer people is presence, pace, and honesty, as we walk with them through the changes that are happening. I think I think the in the incarnation of the changes, now you'll get Yes, honesty is we're going to leave some things because of this. I don't I have no idea where this is going to get to. But I can tell you this. I can tell you this. I do believe God is still on the throne. And I And you and I will walk with you through this. Yeah, you're you're afraid because everything is upside down right now. So am I, by the way, so I don't know how this plays out. And then there comes a moment I think for you know, I'm sure when you brought through the most difficult crises in your life, when you thought everything was just finished. And then you wake up one morning, and suddenly, it's not that the circumstances change, but, but it's going to be okay. Oh, I think I think it's probably going to be okay. You came to peace. And not because I told you to come to peace, but because I gave you the space to come to peace. And so I think that's where leaders are more like parents than we than we allow ourselves to talk about in this in this world. And we just got to hold space for people's change and and to walk with people through it. So yeah, volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous. You want to create stability Let's see. But please don't do it by being dishonest. In that process, that's

Joshua Johnson: 55:06

helpful. That's good. If you had one hope for your readers that would read your book, what would what was your be your hope that they would get from this.

Karl Martin: 55:17

I honestly, all I'm hoping to do is catalyze a conversation with themselves. I just want people to stop. You know, I argue in the book that the busy is not our problem. Busy is the world's problem, I don't see busy changing. Now, if you if you have children, if you have a job to do, if you have a calling of God, if your passion for things busy is going to be your life, right? How busy when that married to hurry becomes the problem. So creating margin to be able to have the kind of conversations that this would provoke you into if you if you allow yourself to stop could be a difference between unhealthy leadership and healthy leadership. And you know, it's not this book isn't the be all and end all there are there are many other books out there that that will do that. But it is the the intentional, pause and breathe. That that allows for a reset of purpose and value and the courage to look at yourself in the mirror and go, really is this? Is this what it's come to? Yeah, that's what I'm hoping.

Joshua Johnson: 56:30

Carl, I have a couple quick questions I'd like to ask at the end. So one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give, I

Karl Martin: 56:37

would not be so anxious to get ahead, according to the standards that I had imbibed from the world around me. And I would think carefully about what I thought success was because I'm a highly competitive person. And I think I was too obsessed with winning by I had no idea what winning was. And so yeah, I think I would have done some of the things that I'm encouraging myself to do right now much earlier.

Joshua Johnson: 57:08

That's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you can recommend.

Karl Martin: 57:12

I'm reading everything. I've really everything I can on the Enneagram. No, because I think it's truth, but because I'm fascinated by understanding where my motives come from, where my drivers come from, why I tend to certain reactions to two things. So Beatrice chestnut, is what I'm reading at the moment on the Enneagram. Anything by John Mark comer I find fascinating, as well.

Joshua Johnson: 57:42

Yeah. It's fantastic. It's good. How can people go out get your book? How can people connect with you? Where would you like to point people to?

Karl Martin: 57:52

Website, arable koat.com. You can find out a little bit more about us and you can buy this on Amazon in the US, although it's slightly slow to get delivered right now. But if you're in the UK, you can get it from Waterstones or Amazon there as well. Awesome.

Joshua Johnson: 58:10

Well, Carl, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for bringing us through the cave, the road, the table saying Sheila Shire. I really really enjoyed it. So thank you so much. I've loved it.

Karl Martin: 58:20

Bless you. Thanks a lot.