Ep. 195 Amy Williams - Dealing Hope in a Gang Neighborhood

Often we look at communities which look broken and dysfunctional and we take them on as a problem to be solved. But long term change requires presence, love, and hope. In this conversation, Amy Williams, a hope dealer in Chicago talks about her experience living in a neighborhood with gang violence, visiting kids in jail, and doing youth ministry work for years. There is hope in the community and many of the solutions come from within that same community. We talk about the importance of listening to understand others, developing compassion, and finding identity and hope in God. So join us as we learn to see others like Jesus does – with dignity, worth, and compassion.

Youth ministry veteran Amy Williams ministers to teens involved in gangs and those lost in the criminal justice system with a key strategy of life-on-life mentoring. As a certified gang intervention specialist, she heard God's call to move into a Latino gang neighborhood in Chicago's Humboldt Park community to be a "Hope Dealer" doing street outreach and walking life with young people on her block. Amy is project coordinator at New Life Centers, bringing in restorative justice programming to youth at juvenile prisons.

Amy has been a youth pastor, a reentry coordinator, and a youth mentor and advocate. She is a graduate of both University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and National Louis University. She resides in Chicago and loves salsa dancing and is a true beach baby.

Amy's Book:
Worth Seeing

Amy's Recommendations:
It's OK That You're Not OK
Tattoos on the Heart

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Transcript

Amy Williams: 0:00

It's really the little things that are considered extremely successful. A kid that doesn't drop dirty, which means he passes his drug test is huge when he's struggling with an addiction to weed, right, but he's clean. That's huge. And that gives him hope that he can continue doing things. But I think a big part of of seeing hope is us being hope to them being a light in their darkness, right. So if they can see hope in us, if they can see us living out hope, if they can see us having big ol little hope, then that insert in stairs in them, some type of hope as well.

Joshua Johnson: 1:01

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Our show is powered by you the listener if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides and more go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Liam burns, Braxtons red, and Kurt Thompson. You can go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Amy Williams, youth ministry veteran Amy Williams ministers to teams involved in gangs and those lost in the criminal justice system with a key strategy of life on life mentoring. As a certified gang intervention specialist. She heard God's call to move into a Latino gang neighborhood in Chicago's Humboldt Park community to be a hope dealer, doing street outreach and walking life with young people on her block. Amy's Project Coordinator at New Life centers, bringing in restorative justice programming to youth at juvenile prisons. And he has been a youth pastor a reentry coordinator and youth minister and advocate. She is a graduate of both University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and National Louis University. She resides in Chicago and loves salsa dancing. And as a true beach baby. Often we look at communities which look broken and dysfunctional, and we take them on as a problem to be solved. But long term change requires presence, love and hope. In this conversation. Amy Williams, a hope dealer in Chicago talks about her experience, living in a neighborhood with gang violence, visiting kids in jail and doing youth ministry for years. There is hope in the community. And many of the solutions come from within that same community. We talked about the importance of listening to understand others developing compassion, and finding identity and hope and God. So join us as we learn to see others like Jesus does with dignity, worth and compassion. Here's my conversation with Amy Williams. Amy, welcome to shifting culture. So excited to have you on thanks for talking to

Amy Williams: 3:49

me all excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me on your show.

Joshua Johnson: 3:53

Yeah, man, let's get into your story. I think it's gonna be really beneficial for a lot of people to be able to say that everybody is worthy. And we need to see people on the margins and we need to be with people and carnation only with people on the margins. And we're gonna find some cool things on the inside. So tell me your story. Where you come from, what do you do? What are you all about? Sure.

Amy Williams: 4:21

It started when I was a little girl back in 1970. That far back? I will say that I was born and raised in Maine. As you can probably guess there aren't a lot of people of color in Maine growing up. being biracial is a very big part of my story because because of that not being seen a lot not being seen who I was and and being embraced in a culture that really wasn't that ethnically mixed right. moved to North Carolina and got the culture shock of Allah Lifetime, I was like, look at all these black people look at all these white people, and oh my goodness, they're both my people, right? And trying to navigate that. But still being true to who I am, through the course of that went to school ended up in Chicago, and really have found myself in the throes of working and being blessed to work with young people that are caught up in gang culture and in the prison system. So I've been doing youth ministry for 30 years. I know, I don't look that old, I look good. I know. And have just been blessed to hear the stories know the stories and be on the front lines of working with people on the margins. It is heavy. It is. I've seen a lot. I've buried a lot. And I've rejoiced a lot as well. And so here I find myself 30 years later, trying to figure out what what is the next season of working with young people? What does that look like for me?

Joshua Johnson: 6:07

Before we we figure it out, as of what is the next season look like? Let's go back into the previous season. And walk through a little bit. What does it look like to be in Chicago? Working with youth? What is like, what does it look like, on a daily basis? Sure, in the midst of things,

Amy Williams: 6:28

so it never looks the same, right? I have a love hate relationship with Chicago. People that live in Chicago, love their Chicago, people love when the weather is beautiful, when it's nice, you can go down to the lake, and you can hang out downtown. But for people like myself, when the weather's warm, we're getting ready. We're getting ready for the violence that's about to ensue. We're getting ready to try to find safe spaces for young people to hang out with. They're not on the corner. So they're not out on the street, we're looking for things to do within the prison system that will help our young men when they come home, returning to their environment, right to find safety, comfort, a mentor, mostly safety. So every day is about trying to help a young person live another day. And that's heavy. That's real heavy. Because sometimes they don't make it. So

Joshua Johnson: 7:29

then what are some steps to be able to help people find community? What what are the things? Is it finding community that shows them a there's a different path? There's a different way? Or is it saying I'm just going to walk with you, I'm going to be there? What does it look like for people to help people live?

Amy Williams: 7:51

You know, the thing about young people that are in gang culture is they already have a community. Right. And I never tell a young person to leave a gang because that's like me telling you to leave your wife and your your child and go and just abandon them. And so we have to replace that community with positive like minded Christ like individuals that aren't necessarily trying to save and rescue them. Right, like people are not projects to be fixed. So you have a lot of that that what is that that hero complex, right? Where people try to come in and save them? No. This is about walking life with young people where they are, where they find themselves, hoping to expose them to other ways of healthy living, that attracts them that they get that that is healthy. This is how I want to do that. The best way to do that is through mentorship. And sometimes that's one on one mentorship. Sometimes that's having a ton of people, you know, they say it takes a village to raise a kid and I think it takes a kingdom. These days, it takes the kingdom. And I'm never want to be like I'm going to be the one that saves them. No, I'm going to try to get as many positive people as I can to surround this young person, again to show them that there's a healthier way of living that could possibly save your life.

Joshua Johnson: 9:21

Well, man, there's a there's a lot here. Yeah. You've been walking for many years in Chicago. Yes, people. And you see that there are so many broken systems that people fall through the cracks constantly. Absolutely. Is there. Have you seen anything that has started to help repair in these broken systems that people are involved in?

Amy Williams: 9:48

You know, like you said, a lot of it is systemic, right? If there was, you know, Chicago is known for its violence. People think we're not doing anything and it's one of those Things where there are many problems so that there have to be many solutions, right? It didn't happen overnight. It's not going to be fixed overnight. And so, right now, we're looking to the church to make the difference. The church has the resources, the church has the hope that is needed. The church has those that can advocate, if you don't want to work one on one or on the frontline, you can advocate for policy for system change. There's a lot of you know, there's there's this one community in Chicago, very small community, it has one of the highest rates of homelessness, of dropout rates of poverty, and they have 98 churches in this small community. But there's still a community that is number one, and areas that the church has the ability to impact. But churches are not working together. They're in their own silos. And I think what is going to take to change? Is the church coming together? Is the church coming together? Seeing what the need is, and doing what needs to be done?

Joshua Johnson: 11:27

Yeah, I was just teaching earlier today on Ephesians, four, talking to people. And at the beginning of Ephesians, four, it talks about, there's one body, there's one church, there's, you know, one baptism, one Lord, we are all in this together the unity. And then it gets into the place of diversity. There's the apostolic, prophetic evangelist shepherd, and teaching gifts so that we could actually look good, and grow up into Christ, who is the head and then brain maturity. So as we're thinking about that, I don't think it silos don't work, right. Now, a lot of times, we think, Hey, we're really good at the evangelistic work, and we're gonna, so just do that and beat that drum. But we need all of us to come together to say, each one of us needs to play the part, the whole body needs to play a part so that we could actually see Jesus in an area and a place. And I'm done with with churches saying, it's about us and our little organization. It's really about the kingdom. And absolutely, but the half the habit, right, and

Amy Williams: 12:33

it's about, I mean, these young people, these families are part of the community that we serve, Jen, and be they in them, right, it should be we and us. And I have learned more from gang members than I have learned from any pastor I've ever sat under, right, like, we are in community together, and those that are incarcerated guess where they're coming back to your community, their community? So how do we see them? Again, not as projects to be fixed, but as actually the ones that have the solutions to the problems in which they find themselves right, as Glenn Martin, who says that those that are closest to the problem are the ones that have the solution. But a lot of times, we'd like to not have those communities sitting at the table when we're trying to figure out what to do. Right. And so we have churches that are trying to figure this out, without having families that have incarcerated loved ones that are sitting in your congregation, not sitting at the table, telling you what the need is, what the solution could be, we have to we just have to do better.

Joshua Johnson: 13:50

So then the teams and the community needs to come from the inside. So what are some good questions? How do we organize a coalition of people from the inside part of the community that were say, hey, there's a systemic problem in this area in this neighborhood, we have all this violence, we want to help. It's going to take people from that community to be able to do that. What does it look like to bring those people together? Or to listen to know what is the problem and how we could all work together to walk alongside people to solve this problem? Sure.

Amy Williams: 14:30

And so, you know, the first thing is to get out from the walls, get out from those four walls and get into your community. Find out what's going on in the community, find out what workshops are being offered, what organizations are already doing the work, right, how can you come alongside organizations that already doing violence prevention, gun awareness, gang intervention prevention programs right for are the little kids that haven't even reached that point yet? Volunteering inside of the prisons, right, helping those that are currently incarcerated, they're starting with, again, the families that are in your church that are being impacted and affected by the violence or by incarceration, right. And so or by homelessness or by sex workers, or, you know, I mean, it goes to everybody that's on the margins. Somebody is sitting inside your church that is dealing with some heavy things, that you should be able to start there. But then also start with what's already going on in the community and come alongside what they're doing.

Joshua Johnson: 15:44

That's really good. You, you're a self professed hope dealer. Yeah, you'd like to call yourself a hope dealer. You do and hope, right? There's a lot of dealing on the streets, you're dealing in hope that's correct. Can you tell me a story of of somebody that you've walked alongside as you're working with youth that have found some hope?

Amy Williams: 16:07

We have a lot of young people we bring in as an organization, I work for an organization in Little Village. And we bring in restorative justice programming into the prison system. So that looks like everything, from art, to music, to peace circles, to writing to Barber, worktops all of those different kinds of things, right. And so I go in there, and I'm the big sister, they call me Mama, they call me auntie, right? So just being able to go in and do something as simple as when a kid walks through the door, to say, Hey, how are you, it's great to see you and give you a hug. Not supposed to give hugs. But I'm a hugger. You know, I'm the antium I gotta give hugs, you know, to kids who haven't had hugs and months, right? To be able to see their face light up to be able to see that they're learning something that they wouldn't have learned out on the street, to be able to have deep conversations with someone like myself to be able to cry, right, in private, when they're not able to do so on the street. All of these different ways of having hope. Seeing them come home, connecting them with a mentor that's walking with them, seeing them get a job, right, seeing them make their own money opening a bank account. I mean, it's in this kind of work, it's not the big things, it's really the little things that are considered extremely successful. A kid that doesn't drop dirty, which means he passes his drug test is huge when he's struggling with an addiction to weed. Right, but he's clean. That's huge. And that gives him hope that he can continue doing things. But I think a big part of of seeing hope is us being hope to them being a light in their darkness, right? So they can see hope in us. If they can see us living out hope. If they can see us having big ol little hope, then that insert in and stirs in them. Some type of hope as well. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 18:16

we have to be hope. You know, when Jesus goes into people places, the religious community didn't like him hanging out with sinners or prostitutes. A lot of people that were attracted to him, but he is the the light of the world, right? So he's bringing bringing hope and bringing light and change. And people's lives are being transformed just because they get to interact with Jesus for a little bit. And so we're bringing to light if we're bringing light, we don't have to, you know, say, Hey, I'm trying to save you all. But if we're being light in the place, lives are gonna start to be transformed because they're there. People are seeing light. Yeah. One of the things that I didn't know, you know, in prison, it seems to me that people can, they don't have to worry about a lot of what's going on in the outside. You'll

Amy Williams: 19:14

be surprised they actually worry a lot about what's going on on the outside, because they have no control. There's something going on with their children. Something's happening with their mom. I've had young people whose parents have died while they've been inside incarcerated, not able to go to the funeral. One of their boys has gotten shot and killed. So there's a lot that they deal with, on the inside while they're inside. Right. And people think that people in prison are just living this life of three hots and a cot. You don't have to worry about anything. If anything, you have to understand they're always worrying about something. Something is going on and they're not able to be there to help out And it creates a lot of stress.

Joshua Johnson: 20:03

So then how do we deal with that stress? Yeah, to deal with that anxiety, and the worry of knowing that there is nothing that can be done. And they're there on the inside? What? Is there anything to say be? Are you just bear with them? What happens? How do we help people with that? I

Amy Williams: 20:23

think it's a little bit of everything, right? I think it's about being there and listening, letting them talk, praying for them, praying with them, prayer is huge in that capacity, right? Because you're, you're allowing some of your control, to be released to the God that is in control. So praying, sometimes, there's stuff that I can do, because I am on the outside, I can go and sit and talk with your mom, if something happened, I can go to the family of your friend and say, So and so can't be here. But he wanted me to let you know that he's thinking about you. So there are many different ways to help alleviate that stress. There are also programs on the inside, usually they can play basketball and workout, some of the Whoa, all of that that's going on inside of their body. But mostly just building those relationships, and being a safe space that they're able to talk to someone about

Joshua Johnson: 21:24

that. It just goes to show like one of the things I think we're we're all in the space that we're we're broken, emotionally, we're broken spiritually, we're broken in our relationships with one another, and with God. And so what is what are healing those broken spots start to look like as you're walking with people on the day by day. Like it's the it's a long term journey with people, right? What what is Healing Broken, said

Amy Williams: 21:56

Say that again. That's a long time journey.

Joshua Johnson: 22:00

That is right.

Amy Williams: 22:01

I have young people that I've known since they're 12 years old, and they're 30 years old now. And I'm still in their life, and they're still hurting. Right? I think it looks different. For every individual, it looks different for every relationship, right? Usually, the kids when they're with me, they can be who they truly are. With their with their boys on the block, they got to be somebody different, right? So healing sort of looks like them coming into their identity, and really knowing who they are what they want. And what are they willing to do to get their dream to get their hopes if they have hope? Dr. Father, Greg, doctor, Father, Greg Boyle of Homeboy Industries, he shouldn't be a doctor, right? You

Joshua Johnson: 22:48

shouldn't be that he might be a doctor to me.

Amy Williams: 22:52

But he's like, I've never seen a young, hopeful person join a game, right. And so hope is the key. Our our hope is, is in Christ, our hope is in knowing that God's got your back, he's got your front, he's got your middle, he's got your side to side, right. Like, he's got you covered. And that is that is the hope that we try to instill in a lot of young people. But what is healthy look like? You know, I'm still trying to figure that out for myself.

Joshua Johnson: 23:26

I know, that's the work that we're all doing. This is this is the thing, like we're talking with your work with people on the inside, and the prison system or in in Chicago, that and violence and gangs and you're sitting there, and the tendency for the people listening right now, and for me, personally, is to say, That's them over their life. And they are dealing with all these issues that they have to get their stuff together. But we have to look at ourselves, too. We have we all have to get our stuff together. Like our Yeah, that that piece that you said about identity? I think is it's key for all of us is that we need to find out who God has called us who he says we are Yes. And so that we can move into a direction that is with him and not trying to do something else. How what is that? How do we get that identity piece and with people and for ourselves? Because I think that's going to be the key formation to move people into different directions because we're all I think for people in gangs, they're like, Okay, this is this is my identity. Now I am a part of this. Absolutely. And so, where does identity plan?

Amy Williams: 24:49

We know that young people are on a constant search to fit in to figure out who they are and I don't know too many teenagers that have figured that out when they're a teenager,

Joshua Johnson: 25:04

right? That's the journey of being a teenager or a Exactly. So

Amy Williams: 25:08

where's the grace? Where's the grace to allow the teenager to be a teenager, as they're figuring this out, and being an example. So one thing that I love to do with a lot of my teenagers, especially those that are getting involved, is exposing them to a different worldview. A lot of these young people and I have met several who have never been downtown Chicago, who have never been to the lake, they really can't go past a certain perimeter, or they're putting themselves at risk. Unless there was somebody like me, who drives and take, you know, you have to take main road, you can't take back roads, tinted windows works. Like there's all of these different things you have to think about, just to expose them to a world that is bigger than the one that they know, I usually take them to the Sears Tower, sorry, the Willis Tower, it will always be the Sears Tower. I don't care what anybody says. And I'll take them to the very top. And I'll be like, show me where your neighborhood is. Show me where your block is. You can't find it. Can you? Do you see how big Chicago is? Actually, you can see four different states from here. That's just for how many do we have in this country. And you can't even show me where your block is from here. The world is bigger than your block. And I think it started there with a lot of the kids by exposing them to things like we take them kayaking, we take them on a boat, we do introduce them, I took them to moody radio one time and show them you could be a broadcaster like you could start your own podcast, exposing them allows them to say, wow, there's more to this world. Maybe there's more to who I am to and the things that I want. What

Joshua Johnson: 26:55

are some ways for us to lift up our eyes? To see more? We're always I mean, I don't think no matter who we are, we're looking down in our feet a lot. Like we're just looking to say, this is where we are. Yeah. What is lifting our eyes other than getting them physically out of their space? Is there a way to just do it and in everyday life? You know,

Amy Williams: 27:19

I think, for me, what it has come down to is listening to the stories. I think that I don't absolutely do not like gang culture, I don't approve of the lifestyle. But after hearing the stories, I understand how a lot of my young people have ended up where they are. There's a lot of trauma, a lot of trauma, and then there's more trauma. I can see why they are incarcerated, I can see why. And, you know, pick up my book, I have tons of stories of young people who have found themselves I mean, nobody is born and jumps out of the womb is like I want to be a gang member. Right? Like, there has to be things that happen all along the way. And we have to be willing to listen, to be in the posture of a learner, to be able to validate those stories and not judge them. And listen, and listen and listen and listen. And that does. And I'm not just talking about the gang member, right? I'm talking about the person that you sit next to in the church that gets on your nerves, right? Do you know that person's story? Do you know why they are the way they are? To be the church? Jesus didn't it all the time he listen. I mean, he has a few words that you know, he said, but a majority of it, he listened and then met the need. And I just don't think we listen. I think we go in with an agenda. I think we become very arrogant. And say we know the answers, we know the solutions, and we're not listening. So we have to get better at that.

Joshua Johnson: 29:11

That's why I really liked Luke 10 When Jesus senses 72 out, because he tells the 72 disciples, the first thing you do you find somebody they'll eat, what does that mean for you? And then he actually says again, eat what a sub before you and then it says He'll then heal the sick. So right we've listened, we've eaten together, we've listened to each other's stories, we know where we're at, then we heal the sick because we actually know what would be good news for the person. There. We know their problems. We know their drama, we know the place where they're broken, that Jesus says okay, then start the healing process. And then at the end says, once they've had healed then proclaim that the kingdom of God has come near. Oftentimes we like to like come and say I just want to proclaim the kingdom first. this talk, talk, right without doing the first two things,

Amy Williams: 30:04

and I want to save you. Yeah, I want to be the one to do this. And not realizing, look, people have to be the hero of their own story. Right? We are not the lead actor in a person's life, we are the supporting role. So you have to include people in their own healing, you can't want it more for them than they want it for themselves. That's why a lot of times with the young people that I work with, it takes time because until they want it was really nothing much I can do. But be there love you and pray for you. When you're and I tell them when you're ready to leave the game. I am right here, you know where to find me. And that's the key. They know where to find me. I am present, I am consistent. And I am available. They know when it comes down to it, that they can go here call here and look here. And they will find me because I am available and present and consistent. And consistent. Right. And so if we're not out on the corners, if we're not out on the street, I've come to church smelling like weed, right? And everybody judges me for it. And I'm like, Well, I was just on the block with the guys. Right? I wasn't smoking, but the guys was smoking, but I'm still out there. Right? And I get judged for it. I don't now because people are just like Amy was on the block. But you know, at first it gets a little shaky, and the kids are like, Why are you out here with us? And I'm like, why wouldn't I be? Why wouldn't I be milkweed over there, though, don't blow it up. I've been offered weed before. And I'm like, there may be from my cataracts when I get older, but not. But yeah, you know, we have to be consistent, we have to be present, and we have to let people be the hero of their own lives.

Joshua Johnson: 32:02

So yeah, we're talking here, people sharing their stories. And so how do we what are some good questions to be able to then draw some stories out? And how can we be safe people suffer people to tell their stories, too. Right?

Amy Williams: 32:20

Exactly. Oh, I think you just nailed that. Nobody's gonna tell you their story if you're not a safe space for that. And one of the ways to be a safe space is through the talent, the gift of validation, right? Like being able to not judge a soul judge a word, you might not agree with it, it might not be your lifestyle. It might not be a thought that you agree with. But you can validate that person in saying, I see you, I see what you believe. I might not agree with it. But you have every right to feel and think the way that you do about this particular thing. I think questions to ask once you have become a safe space, is I'm intrigued by your ability to so and so. Can you tell me where you learn that from? Right? Letting people then say well, when I was a little girl such a such a such a such? Or you and I have a lot of things that are very similar and are common. How did you get to the place where you are today? You could ask just simple questions that validate their worth and their being before even hearing the story in a position of judgment. Right. So being being a safe spaces is key to that. But yeah, just telling them I would love to know more of your story. Why do you believe the things that you do believe are? How did you get to this space that you're in today?

Joshua Johnson: 34:00

You know, the very beginning here of of your book, you talk that one of the things that we need to do first is to be able to see ourselves because she talks about the story of Hagar. Who are we seeing right because people are worth seeing? Yeah, that we all see. But so for you, where did you start to learn? To be honest, a lot of people in your position I've seen I've seen a couple things with people in your position. Yeah, tell one of the things is that you work yourself to death, your identity is only found in your work. You burn yourself out. And it is very difficult for you to detangle yourself from who you are with what you do right now. Just Hey, I've been like, I'm in this missionary world. I get that all the time. Right, right. But then we have some people that are healthy that they've done some work of seeing themselves, right. I think that's one of the things that you start With this journey is to see yourself first. Where Where did that come in for you? How did you start to see yourself? How did you first start to say, God, you see me, and I can now start to see myself.

Amy Williams: 35:14

And I think that's it. I think when I, it took a while, it took a while, right? Like we said, when you're a teenager, you're trying to figure things out when you're in your 20s. That's when everything goes awry, and you're really searching for that. But then when you hit your 30s, you're like, Oh, I know who I am, and what I'm called to write. And so I think, for me, and I talked about it in my book and a conversation with one of my mentors, where I thought that somebody else that was in my life was the one that was called to the work. And I wasn't when I realized what God had called me to. And I accepted that call, I realized who I was, it wasn't wrapped up in what I was doing. found that it was more and that God saw me. And God created me to impact the world, whatever that was, whatever that like, for me, it was with the young people by being able to say, and, and I still, it's a it's an everyday struggle, right to be able to be like, I am a baby girl, I'm God's baby girl, regardless of what I do, or what I don't do, simply because I am simply because I loved somebody because he thought that I was a great idea for this world, right? He birthed me it was like this world needs a AMI, here we go, then he was like, We don't need no more. And why but being able to know that, who I am, what I'm called to do, but still wrestling with that sometimes, and not getting caught up and burned out. But being able to step back and realize nobody's gonna get saved if God doesn't do it. Again, I'm a big proponent of you got to be the hero of your own life. I'm just a supporting actors came to realize that then I was like, Who am I outside of this work? And that's why I'm involved in many different things. That one thing doesn't define me. Right? Author, dancer, gang intervention specialist, juvenile justice, all these different titles. At the end of the day when I crawl into bed, I'm God's baby girl. That's, that's that's how I go to sleep at night. Good night, Daddy. That's

Joshua Johnson: 37:43

so good. I think so a right version of seeing ourselves correctly. To walk it helps us see others, correct? Absolutely. Absolutely. How does that how does now when you finally realize, okay, this is how God has created me, this is who I am. And this is how I show up in the world. No matter what space I'm in, whether it be on the dance floor, or whether it be in the jail cell. With with the guys that I'm working with. How does that help you see other people?

Amy Williams: 38:13

Oh, man, look, I am a hot mess. And I need Jesus. Okay? Like, for real? For real? Sometimes I look at myself and I'm like, But God, why do you love me? And God is like, but I so do. If he's that way with me? Why wouldn't he be that way with others? hot messes, we're all hot messes. We all need Jesus at the end of the day, right? And so being able to see his love for me, regardless of the mess that I am, helps me to see others people's mess. I realize that God is in the midst of that as well. I mean, you really have to step out of yourself. This thing is not about you. And you know, I I belong to the spoil brats club because I can really be a spoiled brat with God and I know it like I'm lying there. That's a little puppet him and huffing and puffing and stuff, right? But really being able to step out of the way and be like, This is not about me. This is about the person that is in front of me that needs to be seen and have their worth validated. Really helps me to be able to, to put myself in the right position, remembering who I am and who I'm not. I have a chapter that says God is the great I Am which means were the great I Am nots, right, recognizing who I am and who I'm not, and who really, really is in control of this thing. And it ain't me and you don't want it to be me.

Joshua Johnson: 40:00

Here's a good drawl the the the thing, I'm going to just, I'll just throw it out there. I don't know if we want to spend a second on this or not. But when people are in the midst of violence, destruction and brokenness, when we say that God is in control, there are like, I don't see it. Right? How then? Do we see hope? In those situations, when we know there is a God, when it doesn't look like around me? It doesn't look like there is a God, that doesn't look like there's anything that is right in this world. Yeah. How then do we start to see hope?

Amy Williams: 40:41

Man, that is such a good question. Because it's challenging. It is it is challenging to see that. And I think that we have to find our hope. I think it's simple in in God, regardless of what the situation looks like. I think we have to understand too, and I tell my young people this a lot, that we throw God in a lot of situations and blame him for a lot of things, that we actually are the ones that got us to that point. Right? We have to take accountability to say, God didn't say join the gang, sorry, he didn't say join the gang. That was a decision that you made of your own. And there are consequences for those kinds of decisions. And with that, you know what comes with that, but and it comes with violence, or comes with death that comes with incarceration that comes with a deep heaviness and trauma. But I have seen too many stories of young people that have pulled out of it. That's how I find my hope. That's how I find my hope. I walk with people, I have a community of people that walk with people, I have others that are doing the similar work, right? Our hope, godless of where we find ourselves, has to just be in the God that loves us and sees us and created us. And that's hard. I'm not saying that. It's the easy thing. There have been times when I have been like I'm done with Chicago. I'm done with working with young people. I'm tired of burying kids. I'm tired of all of this work, I don't see Oh, in this changing, and God said, but for that one kid, it may not be a million kids. It may be for that one kid, I need you to be light in his darkness. I need you to gird up your loins and put on your armor. And be hope for that one kid. Hopefully, it's more than one kid. And then also for me, the ones that I have buried. It may seem like that they don't give me hope. But knowing that they would want me to continue doing the work of helping their friends. And their brothers and their sisters and their moms is another way that kind of keeps me going and gives me hope that things can change. It's hard.

Joshua Johnson: 43:11

It's not an easy answer. It's not. It's a hard. It's a it's a real lived experience. It's not just a theological. Let's, let's have this discussion, like up here. Right? It's actually embodied? Is this. My lived? Experience. My life? Yeah. I think it was well done.

Amy Williams: 43:33

Thank you.

Joshua Johnson: 43:34

What would you say to people if they say we have, we have identified a pain point in our city community? We know that there's some injustice here, things are broken. We want to see that be restored and healed? Yes, they have already moved into the neighborhood. So I think that's step one, right? They have to be in the neighborhood and then just be nice. It's not it's not like a drop in situation. You have to be alongside so they've lived to the neighborhood. What how do we start then, when we have already identified that pain point, we're in the neighborhood? How do we start to find some healing in that community?

Amy Williams: 44:14

So I think it starts with, first of all, the position that you put yourself in as having moved into the neighborhood. Are we talking about the church? Are we talking about individuals moving into the neighborhood? Because what I realized when I moved into they were God called me to move into a gang neighborhood and moved into that neighborhood. And realize that he told me I'm not the one that's going to save the neighborhood. He's already there. He just needed me to be light and darkness for some of the kids that were there. And these particular kids needing me to live there not just drop in, as you were saying, right. So the way that I discovered what the pain points were talking to those that were in the community You figured out what the pain point is. Now, you have to gather both those in the church, both those in the community and organizations together to figure out the solution for that. A lot of times what happens is the church just makes a decision and goes out and does it. I remember, you know, a particular church that came into the community brought buses, picked up kids, took them out of the neighborhood, did a little church service, got them saved, dropped them back in the neighborhood. And then they were never seen again, the church has to have a position of, they have to be in the posture of being a learner. It's not just their neighborhood. It's the community's neighborhood. And you can go in with the savior complex thinking that you're going to rescue and save that. So I would say you got it, you got to do a lot of talking. You got to do a lot of relationship building. And figure out what are the different avenues people are very creative in their own communities. They've lived there for a long time, and they have solutions, but nobody's listening. Oh, well, we go back to listening. The church needs to listen, right? We need to listen.

Joshua Johnson: 46:17

I think a lot of times when there's outsiders moving inside to a place, we're like, okay, I asked this one person that I randomly saw, right. And so now I know all the answers right now. Like, that's not going to cut time,

Amy Williams: 46:36

it takes time. If you're on a mission to go in there and save the world quickly. It's not going to happen, and it will fail miserably, right? It takes time, when I moved into the gang neighborhood. I didn't know anybody. But I, I hit the block every single day. I got to know one of the kids. He introduced me to the other kids. Then they introduced me to their families. And they always saw me they always saw me they always saw me. I was like, hey, what do you guys like to do? We like to play basketball and smoke weed? Well, I can't help you with the weed part. But I can help you with the basketball player. So I started the basketball team with the boys, right? I found a church that had a gym, and we had open gym with the kids on the block. It takes time. And it takes presence. It takes presence and consistency in that presence. Once they see you if you just move into the neighborhood, stay in your house, and only go out, you know, to your car when you go into church on Sunday. That's not presence, that's not going to do it. Right. So sit on your porch, talk to people when they walked by, go to your neighbor, have a cookout, like do something, find out something but I have like tons of ideas of things that we did with the kids. But it was all because I asked the kids in that community what it was that they wanted and needed.

Joshua Johnson: 48:01

That's so helpful. Yeah, unnecessary. What would you say to people that are on the outside looking in to your community? What would you say? What have you learned from your community from the community that people on the outside needs to know? You

Amy Williams: 48:19

need to know that we are part of your community. You're looking on the outside, you're looking in at us. You're making assumptions, sometimes judgments. Sometimes you see the joy, sometimes you see the good. But we are all in this together, there's no day in them is we and us. We're all part of the kingdom, whether we're in church or not. Church has the power and the ability to impact and make a change in our communities. And we need that. But those in the community have the power as well. So we need to be unified. We need to figure out how to do this thing together. We're in it together. It's that simple. If you just continue to look at us from the outside and judge us, trust me, we're still gonna keep living and moving forward. They're still going to be those of us that are on the frontlines that are going to try to do the work. But imagine if we did it together. Imagine the impact we could have the healing we can have the hope that we could be the light that we are, man we need y'all. That's what I would say we need y'all y'all are looking in at us. We need y'all. Right? We do this together. Yes. Amen.

Joshua Johnson: 49:47

That's so good. That's great. Amy, if you could tell your readers that would read is going to be reading your fabulous book or seen what is a hope that you have for them, that they would get from your book,

Amy Williams: 50:01

you know, the hope that I have that after you read this book is that it will draw you into more compassion for those that are living on the margins for those that you may have questions about those that you don't know that it'll develop a deeper compassion once you hear the stories, and that that compassion will lead you to action. I hope that you'll see yourself in this book, you'll see yourselves in the stories. And you'll come to understand God's special calling on your life, to see others the way that he sees them. And it starts with seeing yourself the way that God sees you. I really just want people to be moved to action. And to start seeing people seeing them, not just, well, not even seeing but viewing them right. Was I think can sometimes be different than seeing I see right now. But after our conversation didn't happen, the stories? I can. It's a little deeper now. Yes,

Joshua Johnson: 51:02

yes. So good. So I want people to go out and get this book worth seen. And more than that, I mean, I do want that. But more than that, I want people to enter in and be present to people on the margins as to show compassion to be with people and be present. And not just think that it's a good idea for somebody out there over there. But why be present? And if we can't be present in marginalized communities, be present in your own communities, exam, get to know your neighbors and hear their stories and know, what is the pain point because every community has pain, and every community is broken, and we could walk alongside those people. Amy, I have a couple questions for you at the end. What if she could go back to your 21 year old self? What advice would you give? Oh,

Amy Williams: 51:52

man, if I could go back to 21 I would say when you get older, you're gonna gain weight. So exercise because I thought at 21 I was never gonna gain weight. Now, I would say, trust God. keep trusting God. Don't ever, ever stop or give up. I needed to hear that when I was 21. I needed to hear that I was loved. Never, never, never give up. Keep pressing. Perfect.

Joshua Johnson: 52:30

Perfect. Plus Grilli. Good advice for all of us. Yeah, matter what stage of life we're in. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend.

Amy Williams: 52:39

Oh, my goodness. I have been reading quite a few things around grief. I just recently lost my father. So I'm sorry, have been reading the book. It's okay. That you're not okay. I have been reading beyond ethnic loneliness, which is a great one that was just released. And of course, I read everything father, Greg Boyle has written so Tattoos on the Heart and I just everything I'm possibly reading it. As a reminder, yes. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 53:13

he's amazing. And see is the grief is hard. It is difficult. We just lost my mother in law who lived with us for the last seven years. Then in January. So I mean, my wife, to be honest, she's going through it more than I am. Right. But it's, it's hard. Like I know, like at the very at right afterwards. You're like, I don't know who I am anymore like that. Exactly.

Amy Williams: 53:37

I mean, that's a whole podcast in itself. Like I am now a woman without a dad. And I don't know how to be that. Yeah. I don't know how to be that. And trying to figure that out and write this book at the same time. That was very difficult to finish the book I really wanted to give up. Yeah. But I know my dad would not want that for me. So I pressed and did it on behalf of him and my baby brother.

Joshua Johnson: 54:05

That's beautiful. So sorry for your loss. I know how hard that is. To lose a parent. Yes. And it's disorienting. And unlike any other loss I've ever experienced. Yeah. So yeah, sorry, but so close. Photoshop. Where can people connect with you? Where can people go out and get your book? Where would you like to point people to?

Amy Williams: 54:30

Yes, you can find me on my website at a hope dealer.com You can also find me on Facebook at a hope dealer if you just Google a hope dealer. There are 15 million ways to connect with me. And then you can purchase the book on IB p pressed.com. And you can also find me on Amazon target Walmart, Barnes and Noble. The book will be coming out June 25.

Joshua Johnson: 54:56

Well, it's exciting. I'm excited for this books come out. I'm excited for people to go and start to hear your story, but really to hear the stories of people that you've been walking alongside, for a long time, yes, to go. And it's just to say that we could see each other that people are we're seeing their stories are worth hearing. And that we could be people that see others well, and for who they are, that we don't have to go into communities and have a savior complex and think that we're going to save the world. But we do know that there is one that does save the world and that is Jesus. So we Yes, bring light and hope into broken places. And that Jesus does that. And that's who he is said that will redeem and restore all things I'll and so that's that that is hope that you can't, can't push away because this is what he's doing. And we get to be part of the redemption and restoration of all things here and now. Yeah, go and see people on the margins and walk with people be present. Amy, thank you for this conversation. It was fantastic so

Amy Williams: 56:06

much. I appreciate you