Ep. 196 Jay Y. Kim - Learning to Listen in a Noisy World

The world is noisy. It’s hard to listen, to pay attention, and attune to God. Jay Kim helps us do just that in this conversation. Jay shares his journey of learning to tune out distractions and align their life to God's frequency through daily habits of prayer, scripture reading, and creating space for listening. We talk about hearing God speak through diverse communities, listening and speaking across differences, and cultivating empathy through curiosity in conversations. Jay offers practical tips for incorporating rhythms that promote detachment from technology and create space to listen to God and others deeply. So join us as we learn to listen well in a noisy world.

Jay Y. Kim is lead pastor of WestGate Church, a multisite church in Silicon Valley. He is the author of Analog Church: Why We Need Real People, Places, and Things in the Digital Age, winner of The Gospel Coalition’s First-Time Author Award, and the follow-up Analog Christian: Cultivating Contentment, Resilience, and Wisdom in the Digital Age. He cohosts the “ReGeneration Podcast,” and this fall he will cohost Barna’s new podcast “Making Space.”

Jay's Book:
Listen, Listen, Speak

Jay's Recommendations:
Stolen Focus
The Gift of Thorns

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Transcript

Jay Kim: 0:00

It's very unlikely that I am actually hearing the voice of God and everything he has to say just perfectly aligns with me my opinions and my preferences and proclivities and on and on, which is why God speaks through a difference. If we expect God's words to always be comfort, then we are only listening for one side of his voice. Because the reality is, I mean, just read the Bible. Yes, God's voice is comforting. But just as often, maybe more often God's voice is confrontation, which is why He speaks to us through difference now and through unlikely means. And he says things sometimes that are really uncomfortable.

Joshua Johnson: 0:53

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcasts in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Our show is powered by you, the listener, if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides, and more go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now. And hit five stars. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Steve Carter, AJ, Swoboda and Scot McKnight, you can go back and listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is J Kim J. Y Kim is lead pastor of Westgate church, a multi site church in Silicon Valley. He is the author of analog church why we need real people, places and things in the digital age. Winner of the gospel coalition's first time author award and follow up analog Christian cultivating contentment, resilience and wisdom in the digital age. He co hosts that regeneration podcast, and this fall he will co host barnas new podcast, making space. The world is noisy. It's hard to listen to pay attention and attune to God. J Kim helps us do just that. In this conversation. J shares his journey of learning to tune out distractions and align his life to God's frequency through daily habits of prayer, scripture reading and creating space for listening. We talked about hearing God speak through diverse communities, listening and speaking across differences, and cultivating empathy through curiosity and conversations. Jay offers practical tips for incorporating rhythms that promote detachment from technology and create space to listen to God and others deeply. So join us as we learn to listen well in a noisy world. Here's my conversation with Jay Kim. Jay, welcome to shifting culture. Really excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.

Jay Kim: 3:31

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Glad to be on. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 3:35

I'd love to hear your relationship between noise and silence being able to hear and a noisy world. What has your relationship been? With sound?

Jay Kim: 3:49

Yeah, I think my relationship with sound and noise has been what it is for probably most people listening living in the modern world living in that digital age. It's been chaos. You know, and that's really why why I wrote this book, listen, listen, speak. I just I found myself, sort of, especially in recent years, I found myself immensely frustrated with my own inability to hear well, the voice of God. I knew intellectually, cognitively that, you know, theologically, God is speaking God has something to say. But I just I felt like there was too much noise all around me. And whether that's, you know, social media or news media or just the voices in my own head. Yeah, it's been frustrating. But I knew I just I knew I believed that there was a path forward. And so that's been the last several years you know, and my The reason that's a book is because my guess my hunch is that a lot of people feel the way I feel which is it's a noisy world. I want to hear God. But I don't know how it feels like he's silent. Even though again, theologically I know that he's not. So. Yeah, that's kind of where the book came from. And that's been my relationship to noise. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 5:16

well, that is the question many, many people are asking is, how do I hear God? Is he speaking? What is going on here? Have you found a way in your own life to be able to turn down the noise so that you could hear?

Jay Kim: 5:31

Yeah, I mean, that's a much of what the book is about is, you know, there's no way for us to control we have no control over noise pollution on a literal level, you know, as urbanization has moved more and more people away from the quiet sprawls of rural America and rural lands across the world, and more more into noisy cities and urban contexts, as well as just suburban sprawls, where there's lots of people sort of side by side, you know, there's no way to control that necessarily. But you know, I'm wearing these air pods, as we're having this podcast conversation. And these are the same air pods I wear when I go to the gym, to you know, go for a jog on the treadmill or whatever. And the gym is kind of a noisy place. And, and the reason I've got these air pods is because they've got this noise cancellation feature. And so I'll listen to music or maybe a podcast while I'm working out. And I'll you know, trigger the noise cancellation. And what that's not doing is cancelling out or suppressing the noise that's actually all around. It's focusing, it's attuning my listening to the thing that's kind of right here immediate. And so I think that's, that's the invitation. You know, we don't control how much noise there is in the world and in our lives. But there is a way in which we can attune ourselves, our hearts and our minds and our bodies, to hear with clarity, you know, the voice of God that is speaking. So then

Joshua Johnson: 7:06

what's been helpful practice to you to be able to attune your ears towards God? What has really helped you?

Jay Kim: 7:15

Yeah, lots of things. I think the first one that comes to mind is, I realized that number of years ago that I had sort of grown in my frustration to hear God, because I was only listening for God, when I thought I needed to hear from him. You know, the philosopher, Dallas Willard has this great line and his book hearing God, where he says that our failure to hear God, or our failure to hear His voice, when we want to, is due to the fact that we do not in general want to hear it, that we want it only when we think we need it, which is so interesting. When I first read that in the book, in his book, I just It struck me like, Oh, my goodness, that's it. That is the diagnosis for my own frustration. You know, I don't know how many of our listeners would be are old enough to remember, I remember when I was a kid, there was these things called radios. And this was long before the era of podcasts, and YouTube and all of that, but radios you know, like old school radios, especially they would have these little dials. And you would, you would sort of roll the dial back and forth to find the right frequency to hear with clarity, that particular radio station you were looking for. But while you were sort of scrolling the dial, the little knob would move between frequencies. And it was mostly static, it was mostly chaos. But then as it got closer and closer to the frequency you were looking for, like am 680, or whatever, you would begin to lose the static and more and more you would hear like an audible voice or sound or whatever until you got to real clarity and then you would kind of lock in. And that's what I've learned to sort of, you know, for me, the unlocking sort of hearing God's voice clearly in my life, is that it's not that he's not speaking. It's that I am tapping into all sorts of other frequencies. And it's mostly static, it's just mostly chaotic cacophony, just like a bunch of, you know, like on, on and on, like social media, noise, news, media, all of that the voices in my own head. And so really, it becomes a struggle when I'm looking for the clarity of God's voice, sporadically every now and that what I need to do is a tune the center of my life, to the frequency of God's voice and kind of leave it locked in there. The more I can do that, what I've come to realize is that more consistently I hear is voice with clarity because my life is aligned to the frequency of his voice, not just searching for when I gotta need it, but living what I would call well, many call and listening lives, you know, locked into the frequency of the voice of God that is already speak.

Joshua Johnson: 10:14

I think that's a beautiful thing to be able to be attuned to God all the time to have a listening life, and to walk into it. I think a lot of people listening. And for me, it's like, I desire to be that way. I desire that. What are some first second steps that people could take to start to find that frequency and live into that listening life? On a daily basis?

Jay Kim: 10:46

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, there's, there's so many things, several things. But you know, the first that comes to mind is just practice, you know, we have to reordering it and re habituate our lives to becoming a listener, you know, for the voice of God. So, one of the things I would say is, again, coming back to the idea that often we struggled to hear the voice of God, because we're listening for it only when we think we need it. I think one of the practices that's been so helpful for me is to habituate myself, in the morning, and in the evening and throughout the day with particular practices, to to be, again, aligned and locked into the frequency of God's voice. So I'll share a few things that have been helpful for me, this is descriptive, not prescriptive. I think people have to find what works for them that, you know, every morning, before the kids, I've got two young kids. So before the kids wake up, as I'm making and drinking my coffee, every morning, as a matter of habit and practice, I spend time reading the Psalms. So I'm listening for God's voice, reading the Psalms, I do this before I open my phone before I open, you know, a news app or social media or check my email or text messages. Before any of that I did it this morning, you know, I pour my coffee, and sit in the Psalms. I was in Psalm one a week, you know, this morning. And so I do that. And then on my I dropped off the kids at school every day, and we go through the New City catechism with them as a matter of habit. And so I asked them some of the Catechism questions simple and basic ones. And I do this as a sort of prayerful exercise and the moment they're out of the car, I pray the Lord's Prayer specifically for them. You know, Lord, today, your kingdom come and we'll be done in Harper's life, and may your kingdom come, thy will be done in Simon's life and that I let that lead me into more specific prayers, you know, today, pray for my wife, you know, today, God give Jenny for daily bread, what she needs, and I'll pray for specific needs. So I do that, again, to align myself to be in conversation with God and to hear from him. Throughout the day I practice breath prayers, you know, I've got these short little breath prayers, I'll pray. At the end of every day, in the evening, as a family, we, we practice the examine together the prayer of examined and it's a simple way to reflect on your day with God, we do that as a family. So those are some examples. And I do these things as a matter of practice, like, I've committed to them every single day. And again, it's a way of aligning myself to hearing the voice of God, consistently, not just when I think I need it. But at all times,

Joshua Johnson: 13:37

it's really helpful to see what a picture looks like for you to align and attune to the voice of God. So now that you are, are there you have the frequency, you know what the frequency is? Now, we're in conversation together today, in the middle of the day, and you have have done some of these practices you've aligned and attuned to the frequency of God. How do you hear God's voice in this conversation? So as we're speaking, you're listening to meats, ask you questions, you're responding. We're having a conversation. What does it look like to hear God in the midst of a conversation we're having together?

Jay Kim: 14:15

That's a great question. You know, I think often we think of prayer as words when you say to God, and that certainly can be a part of prayer, but I think just as much so prayer is listening for God. So that's one thing I'm doing even as we're talking, just an openness of spirit, open heart, open mind, Lord, you know, if you need to interrupt my thoughts here, then please interrupt. Give me the words to say. And then I think prayer is really also in large part about an awareness that God is present in this place that God is present with you and with me, and collectively with us as brothers and I really I think, living, engaging in any conversation, any interaction with an openness to the Spirit of God who was in us and with us, is a way in which, again, I live attune to the voice of God, you know, open to His interruptions. And, and they're sort of obediently leaning into whatever direction you might be asking us to lean into, in any conversation. Do

Joshua Johnson: 15:27

you have it as a story example of God interrupting your thoughts or your, your path for the day, and you walking in the direction that God has said, go this way? Or do this thing?

Jay Kim: 15:41

Yeah, you know, I've got lots of examples I do. But I've also got lots of examples of sensing those promptings and then being too scared to do anything about them. Which is embarrassing, but I say that because I think probably lots of us listening, have those examples. And one I share, I share my story, because I just want to alleviate any sense of guilt or shame. You know, I think that it's a process and God is our God is our Father, you know, he gets it. And it doesn't, it doesn't change his love for us as he is to us and desire and his longing for deep, meaningful relationship with us. But I've got tons of examples where it's like, oh, I had this prompting, I shared one in our church actually recently about being at a target and running into someone that I had actually been thinking about. Someone who doesn't know Jesus and having this really strong prompting, like, he'd go to them. They didn't see me, but I saw them and I had the strong prompting, go to them, say hello, and invite them to we had Christmas coming out and invite them to join you at Christmas services. And I just did, you know, and I just like, so embarrassing. But I've also had moments like that quite a bit where, where I, you know, muster the courage to do the thing. So I just had a situation like that, this past Sunday at church, and now somebody came up after the service for prayer, we were talking. And I just had a sense that, that maybe they needed a particular type of comfort. And I wasn't sure if that was true. But I just said, Hey, you know, I don't know if this means anything to you. But But my sense is that may be what you need to hear today from God is this particular thing. It wasn't anything very specific. But just a general sort of sense, prompting, and it was really meaningful to them. So yeah, those moments happen from time to time. And I think if we can muster the courage to say yes, to what we sense might be God's invitation. Sometimes it's nothing. But often there are these really beautiful stories that unfold you know, as a gift from God to us, for our faithfulness. So, yeah, there you go. Before

Joshua Johnson: 17:57

you are talking about what you do during the day and a lot of it of being attuned to God and listen to God happens within your family. So it happens communally. Yeah, what's the role of community and hearing and listening? For God?

Jay Kim: 18:16

That's a wonderful question. For me, in my own life, you know, one of the ways that God has spoken most profoundly to me over the years, is through his people. Now, what I'm not saying is that, you know, we should take everything everyone says to us about God, or about our lives a bit like cannon, you know, it's, it's not that necessarily, but I really do believe that God speaks often, quite clearly through the community of people that he's called us to belong to. And we see this in Scripture over and over again, time and time again. And, you know, when you think about the X story, when like, literally the Christian church has birth, in this incredible movement of people who like don't even speak the same language, I mean, they're just like from a variety of cultures and backgrounds. And it's a reversal of the Bible story early on in Genesis, you know, a lot of what are, you know, the culmination of Genesis chapters three to 11, essentially, the sort of breaking down of God's vision for human flourishing. Were just people go their own way to do their own thing. Like it culminates in the Bible story where out of Shubin tried and sin, these people are trying to build a tower that reaches the heavens, and to be gods themselves, you know, essentially to make a name for themselves, and God scatters them and he gives them different languages. And then in Genesis in the book of Acts, you know, when the early church is birthed at Pentecost, and the Spirit of God, you know, falls upon his People and all these people from diverse backgrounds with different languages, they hear the good news of Jesus the resurrected Christ in their own language. And because of this, they are unified and brought together. And and then the story goes on, like they don't leave, you know, they like live together and share everything in common and become this incredible community of Jesus people, it's bound up together in a way that's just so unique. And that I think that that's still true today, you know, the local community of God's people, or the this like unlikely motley crew, you know, the theologians, Scot McKnight calls them the title of one of his books. He calls them difference, you know, like, not difference as in like, E and C, D, but differences in like different plural, you know, all these different types of people all bound up together the fellowship of fellowship of difference, and that's how, you know, it's God speaking, you know, it's like these people that you would otherwise have no connection to, you've now been bound up together as brothers and sisters as family and, and as unlikely as it is, God tends to speak to us and through us in these communities of difference.

Joshua Johnson: 21:21

Yes, he does a lot. How that how do we, how do we listen across differences, then, a lot of times we we do like to stay in our own silos, and we're more comfortable when we're not in this community of different and but God has brought us into this place where we have a common purpose, right, and we have a common Jesus so that we could come around that, how do we listen and or speak across differences? I

Jay Kim: 21:52

mean, I think before we ask the question, how I think it's important for us to think about why. And if you really just think about a logically, one of the critically important whys behind why God speaks to us through difference through through unlikely meetings, is because in our sort of silos, and echo chambers, which are so common in the digital age, and in the era of social media, if God always sounds, the way we expect them to sound, if Gods opinions are always perfectly aligned with our epic of Gods preferences are always perfectly aligned with our preferences. It means one of two things, it means very likely that either we or God, or it means that it's not God. And the first is just theologically wrong, like I'm not God. So the second must be true, that it's very unlikely that I am actually hearing the voice of God and everything he has to say just perfectly aligns with me my opinions, and my preferences and proclivities, and on and on, which is why God speaks through a difference. If we expect God's words to always be comfort, then we are only listening for one side of his voice. Because the reality is, I mean, just read the Bible. Yes, God's voice is comforting. But just as often, maybe more often God's voice is confrontation, which is why He speaks to us through difference now and through unlikely means. And he says things sometimes that are really uncomfortable. So, you know, how do we listen? I think we listen humbly. If it is true, that sometimes God needs to confront us, then we need humility, confrontation will never like healthy, Price Center. Godly confrontation will never have its full effect unless we approach it and receive it with a sense of humility. And then on the other side, when we are speaking, same thing, we need to speak with humility. We need to speak as good news people. And we need to speak I think, especially in the digital age, we need to speak in what I would call we need to speak in place in a placeless age, there is this incredible temptation to just grab our phones and scream into the digital ether. But I think the places where our voices will be most heard and have the most resonance are in our local communities and in our local contexts, with it situated within meaningful relationships where we can do life with one another, not just shout and scream, but actually share life with each other.

Joshua Johnson: 24:50

I think when we are in proximity towards with one another, we're going to see a totally different aspect will speak different, right? If because on so Social media, you don't actually see anybody you don't know who's receiving your words, your information. You can yell and scream and be belligerent, because there isn't consequence on the back end, right? But if I, I'm here. I mean, I'm sure a few people would yell at you, but not very many would would yell and scream at Jay, when we're in the same room or speaking on to another. Because, yeah, I realized that you are a beloved child of God, you're made and his image, there is shared humanity between us. What was the role of proximity was what you said, in our conversations, as we speak and listen?

Jay Kim: 25:50

Yeah, I mean, you said it. I think proximity matters so much. And it's really underrated. I think today, especially because of digital technology. Not only is proximity underrated, I think it's just sort of net collected, which is, you know, you were seeing the fallout of that just in the way we are screaming and shouting and sort of spewing vitriol at each other online. There was a 20th century late 20th century social commentator named Neil Postman wrote a book called amusing ourselves to death, not Christian, he was a social commentator, but he talks about how he's got this wonderful quote, he says that in the modern world, the tie between information and action has been severed. And information is now a form of entertainment. And then he says, We are glutted with information, we're drowning in information. But we don't know what to do with information. And I think that's what we're seeing a lot of, in local contexts, you can take whatever information and it forces you to do something with it. Because I am doing life with these people. Like I can't just, it's not just about me, tweeting a tweet to under 40 character sort of hot take, it's about me actually caring for the person in my beds, in my neighborhood, or my school, or my church or workplace or whatever. And I think we need to get back to that, you know, we've sort of because everybody's screaming at each other digitally. We've bought the lie that like, that's what we're supposed to do that that's the most meaningful use of our time and our energy. And it's not, and we're doing that at the neglect of real people and our real lives, in the real places where we live, where we can make a real difference, not just with our words, but with our actions. And I think, you know, it's a challenge, but followers of Jesus especially, we are called to embody the way of Jesus in real ways. And, and we need to get back to that,

Joshua Johnson: 27:52

hey, this is one of the reasons why I really like Luke 10, when Jesus sends out a 72, he says, you know, when you do find those, those people of peace that you can stay with and sit and eat, what is set before you and that's the first thing that he tells them to do is, is to share a meal with somebody so that when I share a meal with somebody, I have a conversation, I get to know who they are I ask questions about their story, they ask questions about my story, we are sharing stories, that we're sharing a meal, and that he says to heal the sick, which is to encounter Jesus in a way that is a felt need. And then at the end, proclaim after that all those things have happened that the kingdom of God has come near. And oftentimes, I think that we want to shout and proclaim first. Yeah. And so I think the the role of sitting down, we can't actually be good news, people if we don't know what is good news to the people that we're with. How could we start to discover what is good news for Jay Today? How can I ask those questions?

Jay Kim: 29:02

Man, that's a great question. Why then comes back to listening. You know, the reason the title of the book is listen, listen, speak. Some people have asked me he's like, oh, yeah, I get it. You know, two ears, one mouth, that's certainly true. But actually, it's called Listen, listen, speak, because a number of years ago, I just found myself hearing people talk but not really listening. What I mean by that is I be in conversations, even meaningful ones with people that I love. So like sad to admit and kind of embarrassing, but I found myself over and over again, distracted with my own thoughts. And what I mean is I was simply listening as a framework for crafting whatever I wanted to say. So rather than listening for listening sake, like rather than listening in order to receive and to hold and cherish this person's story, I was listening so that whatever they say becomes the backdrop for whatever It is I really felt like I wasn't speaking was the key listening was just kind of background noise. But it was having significant detrimental impact on my relationships just taught me you know, who I was becoming. And so I remember reading years ago, a book by a writer named Parker Palmer, a book called Hidden oldest. And he talks about how the human soul is like a wild animal. And what he says is, you know, if you want to see a wild animal, like out in the wilderness, you can't, nobody goes to see a wild animal by like going crashing through the woods making a bunch of noise, like ag Quan out. If you want to see a wild animals, he says, You have to walk quietly into the woods, and sit very patiently at the base of a tree, sort of like immerse yourself in the surroundings, breathe deeply and quietly. And then maybe the wild animal will make an appearance, you know, and you cherish that. And Parker, Palmer says, that's the human soul. And for me, that was such helpful imagery. Because if I, if I ever have anything to say that's going to be meaningful to someone, I can't go crashing into the relationship with all the things I want to say. What I've got to do is sit quietly, at the base of the tree, and create the space and the safety, to listen well. To listen not for the sake of responding and speaking, but to listen for the sake of listening. And then maybe I'll have something to say, that's why the book is called Listen, listen, speak. And I have discovered that the human soul is a wild animal. And the real you is most comfortable and feels most safe to actually make an appearance. If I instead of just crashing in with my own words, can can sit quietly and create a safe space for you to reveal yourself. And it's in those moments that maybe now I can speak to you like into the real you, rather than just screaming and shouting at each other. So that's yeah, that's sort of the first thought that comes to mind when it comes to speaking effectively to one another.

Joshua Johnson: 32:25

I like that a lot. I think that even if we are sitting at the base of the tree, and we're silent, a lot of times what we we can hear, but we don't listen, then what is the difference then between hearing and truly listening? And is there a practice to help us get better at truly listening in a conversation? So I could know your words and take them in? And not just hear the words that are coming at me?

Jay Kim: 33:00

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the first things we have to do is question the things. That seems counterintuitive. But in order for us to hear well into speak, well, we have to begin asking ourselves why I want to say whatever I say, you know, like, again, I think in a noisy world, we are so accustomed, we just we feel like if we're not saying something, we're like, our life is meaningless, or we're not contributing or whatever else. And so I think there's several questions, we have to ask ourselves, like, Why do I want to say what I want to say? Like, really? And then as we're listening and formulating a response, okay, let me listen some more. What am I missing here? And probably requires more attention. My friend, Steve Carter says this way, like, what is the thing beneath it? And there's almost always a thing beneath a thing. And then, you know, to ask ourselves the question, I'm going to say what I'm going to say, but is there a way that I can say this, that will draw others in rather than push people away? Or build bridges rather than walls? So those are some practical questions that have been really helpful for me, in speaking well into the lives of others.

Joshua Johnson: 34:22

Is there a way that you've learned then, to draw people in from the way you know, Jesus says to His disciples, that nobody could come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws them? Like he's drawing people to Himself? Can we take an example from God, of how he draws people? And that we can start to emulate and be like him?

Jay Kim: 34:46

Yeah, I mean, well, you know, that text, I think there's a lot more to it. I mean, I've even got his like, you know, theological treatment of the Spirit of God isn't the only one that can actually have salvific impact on a human life. But I do think in Jesus we see an incredible example of of drawing others when others and one of the most fascinating things about Jesus to me is that he was absolutely unapologetic in speaking the truth, and yet, like the worst of sinners in his day, wanted nothing more than to spend time with Him. They invited him to their parties. And it's so interesting. So there must be a way in which you can speak truth with such winsomeness and love and compassion and empathy, that even those who disagree want to be around you. And you have they're listening here. And so yes, generally speaking, I think just immersing ourselves in the gospels, you know, taking like studying the example of Jesus, how he spoke to particular people, his posture toward them, not just a spoken words, but what his posture toward them said. I think there's a lot to be learned there about having a posture of generosity and compassion and empathy. That that speaks, I think, in many ways louder than our words. Yeah, you'll

Joshua Johnson: 36:19

see that a lot with Jesus, the rich young ruler comes to him, Jesus looks on him and loves him. But the he misses the look. And he goes away, because he wants his money is the crowds move him to compassion. You know, the Mary and Martha. And the people around with Lazarus move him and grieves him and in such a way where he weeps with them. He Is he is he sees people. And I think that's the that's the thing is we're we're in this conversation, as we're walking with people, as we're wanting to listen in conversation, we need to truly see people. And not just beyond the surface. Have you found a way that you have started to see people in conversation? To know what Steve, you know, Steve Carter says, What's, what's underneath the thing? What is underneath that?

Jay Kim: 37:17

I just try to hold the posture of curiosity. You know, I love that CS Lewis quote, that you have never met a mere mortal, you know, that every person is imbued, and embedded with a particular dignity, and the value and worth because they are made and the unique image of God. And so that's been the most helpful thing for me, is to go into every conversation, every situation with curiosity. And sometimes it is, you know, I wonder what, what the thing beneath beneath this thing is that that idea has been so helpful for me, particularly when it comes to tense conversations, you know, if somebody is, for whatever reason, upset at me, or has some sort of tension with me, instead of getting defensive, and sometimes I do get defensive. I am not claiming to do this perfectly, or even well, all the time, but, but I try my best to lead into it with with curiosity, you know, yeah, they're upset at me, maybe about X y&z reason, but I tried to have a generous assumption about them. And to be curious, you know, there's got to be more beneath. There's like, I wonder what happened in their past that sort of initiating and triggering these emotions? And so even even in healthy relationships and fun conversations, I try to be curious. So it's a simple answer, but but it is sort of the key, I think, to unlocking you know, listening life, not just to God's voice, but to others is to be curious about them.

Joshua Johnson: 38:53

How can we do you have another Andy Crouch talks about parenting your devices, or you're in this digital age? And I think in a in a place where when we are starting to, to be able to listen well, and to actually eliminate some of our distractions? How can we start to eliminate digital distractions to be able to listen well?

Jay Kim: 39:21

Yeah, I mean, I think you said it. Andy crouches work has been immensely helpful to me. So parenting our devices, making sure that we are using our technology and our technology is not using us living with an awareness that if we are not intentional with our devices, or devices certainly have an intentionality toward us. So all of those things, you know, and there is no easy simple solution. I just think it's about incorporating particular practices and rhythms and a sort of digital rule of life you know, and Andy, his suggestions about out, no digital sabots an hour a day, a day, a week, a week, a year. That's a great starting point. And then make sure that you are not completely tethered to your technology. So lots of great resources out there. The common rule, the tech wise family, I've written a bit about it as well. So whatever works and is most helpful to you, but it should feel like a disruption. It's going to have real impact. It's it should feel like a loss of sorts, you know, to untether yourself. So yeah, I think that's the way forward is to incorporate particular practices and rhythms of detaching yourself from technology.

Joshua Johnson: 40:44

I just wanted to know for you and your life, where do you feel like you can listen best? Is there? Is there a place? Is there something that, you know, some people call would be a thin place where I could experience the presence of God, deeper than I do in other places? Is there a place for you that you've really experienced the presence of God?

Jay Kim: 41:07

Yeah, totally descriptive, not prescriptive at all. But for me, it would be every morning in the quiet of my home, before the kids wake up, pouring my coffee, reading the Psalms, and talking with God. My family just took a trip to Joshua Tree National Park, that's something that I tried to do a couple of times a year, is to take the kids to a national park. So those are moments spaces where I feel really small, but really seen and known at the same time. Those are thin places for me. So those are a couple, you know, one daily and one sort of much bigger has to be pre planned, but really impactful. Those are a couple of examples we're coming by.

Joshua Johnson: 41:50

So good. So if your readers go out, get your book, listen, listen, speak, which is fantastic book, by the way. Good job well done, mate. So what is your hope for your readers? What would you like them to, to get from this?

Jay Kim: 42:04

Yeah, a sense of possibility that a listening life is possible. A path forward to drowning out all of the noise and attuning your life to the voice of God that often speaks in a gentle whisper. And then a sense of encouragement and confidence that there is a way to speak that can be heard, even in in the chaotic, cacophonous noisy world that we live in today. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 42:36

that's really good. I just have a couple questions I like to ask at the end. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Jay Kim: 42:47

Oh, gosh, the thing you the things you think matter so much now matter very little. And the things you are not thinking about right now will become immensely meaningful. In your later years.

Joshua Johnson: 43:02

Man, wouldn't be great. If we go back and hear that from ourselves. It would be really nice. But that's alright, we grew up and we're finding that we're becoming, we're on this road of becoming anything you've been reading or watching lately. You could recommend.

Jay Kim: 43:20

Oh, gosh, I'm reading a book right now called stolen focus, which is phenomenal. Kind of right in line with this about our attention and how we have become so distracted today. Yeah, and then I just finished a book by a dear friend by a guy named AJ Swoboda, his new book The gift of thorns. It's about desires and longings and what Jesus might have to say about that. And then when I'm watching, you don't I just started that new show the three body problem and it's, I don't totally get it yet. But it's fascinating so far. I'm only like, two or three episodes in but I'm enjoying it. So

Joshua Johnson: 43:59

yeah, I've heard that's fascinating. haven't seen it yet. AJ Swoboda, his book is amazing. That's incredible. So I loved that had a really good conversation with him. So I will go back and listen to that as well. But, Jay, this was a fantastic conversation. Thank you for being open and generous. Being able to sit here to be able to listen and speak. Have this conversation know that we can be attuned to God and in all of life, that we could live a listening life that we can speak after we listen, and listen. Well, not just for the the great words that I'm going to say as a backdrop to what I need to say, but actually hear people's stories for the sake of their stories. And then being able to hear God in a noisy world because he's speaking, he's always there. He's always speaking and we can hear His voice. So thank you for this. It was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Jay Kim: 44:59

Thanks so much for Me