Ep. 197 Jeremy and Monica Chambers - The Art of Missional Spirituality

I have been a missionary and have trained and sent many missionaries. One of the things that we forget about is preparing for longevity. We often rely on ourselves, our own strengths and abilities to work for God. We have to figure out a way to work with God, be connected with Him, and follow His lead. In this conversation Jeremy and Monica provide insights into a healthy missional spirituality. They discuss their backgrounds in church planting, experiences with burnout, and insights on balancing mission and contemplation. They explore various spiritual practices that can be done individually and communally, including silence, solitude, prayer, and theological discussion. We also address sustaining marriage while in missionary work and finding hope in grassroots expressions of faith. Join us as we discover the art of missional spirituality.

Jeremy and Monica are Jesus followers, church planters, urban missionaries, rock climbers, and the authors of "The Art of Missional Spirituality". They live in Denver Colorado where they are equipping others through the Pando Collective.

Jeremy and Monica's Book:
The Art of Missional Spirituality

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Transcript

Jeremy Chambers: 0:00

And so we have to be able to look at people. clearly seeing this person in front of me bears the image of God. And, and to see that there's mercy and grace and love for this person. And part of that comes from first sitting in the mercy and grace and love of God like the contemplative part. So it's the feeling that happens from being with the Lord.

Joshua Johnson: 0:39

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, our show is powered by you, the listener, if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides, and more. Go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second, and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network, tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Roland Smith, Michael frost and Alan Hirsch. You go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guests are Jeremy and Monica chambers. Jeremy and Monica are Jesus followers, church planters urban missionaries, rock climbers authors. Their new book is The Art of missional spirituality. They live in Denver, Colorado where they're equipping others through the panto collective. I have been a missionary and have trained and sent out many, many missionaries. One of the things that we forget about is preparing for the longevity, we often rely on ourselves our own strengths and abilities to work for God. We have to figure out a way to work with God be connected with him and follow his lead. In this conversation. Jeremy and Monica provide insights into a healthy missional spirituality. They discussed their backgrounds and church planting experiences with burnout and insights on balancing mission and contemplation. They explore various spiritual practices that can be done individually and communally including silence, solitude, prayer and theological discussion. We also address sustaining marriage while in missionary work and finding hope in grassroots expressions of faith. Join us as we discover the art of missional spirituality. Here is my conversation with Jeremy and Monica chambers. Jeremy Monica, welcome to shifting culture excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.

Jeremy Chambers: 3:12

Yeah, thank you so much for having us. Yeah, thank you.

Joshua Johnson: 3:15

I'd love to hear a little your story. What got you into missional spirituality and just being sets people like living life on mission?

Jeremy Chambers: 3:27

Yeah, it's a little bit different for each of us. My, when I was about 13 years old, I went to some conference. They said, Stand up if you want to commit to do some missions work. And I was like, sure if the Lord wants to open the door, I'll I'll do it. And then the Lord opened the door, and I went to Argentina. And it was about 1999. And I just, I got a taste of the kingdom of heaven in a real powerful way. And I've never been the same sense. How old were you? I was 13.

Joshua Johnson: 4:07

You're 13 When he went to Argentina, and that's pretty, pretty young to go and to leave. What's one thing that really stood out to you in Argentina,

Jeremy Chambers: 4:17

we were doing a lot of like, we were in a pretty poor area. We were going door to door and just sharing our testimonies with people. There was one household where the one day we went and this mother is just there alone. And she she's weeping and saying, Wow, this is the message I needed. And I'm thinking like, really like, I'm just good sharing my story. And then she's like, please come back tomorrow. My oldest son's need to hear this and these guys are like twice my age. I come back and like the sons are in tears, and we're praying with them and they're like, oh, man, we're gonna bring our wives tomorrow. Come back. We come back there. wives and their kids are there's like, eight people is a small crowd. And I mean, like, we went back to that place every day. And they were bringing in people saying, we need to hear what you're talking about. And again, like at 13, you're like, who am I? What is going on? But then you're like, well, it's not about me. It's, it's at the Spirit of God wants to do something powerful here. And I got to witness it. And yeah, that's had been imprinted on me. Yeah. I

Joshua Johnson: 5:28

mean, young people can do to a lot. One of the most effective evangelists, when we were in the Middle East was a nine year old girl, that would just spread Jesus stories all over the community and our Syrian refugee community, it was a beautiful thing to witness and to see. So how about you, Monica? How did you get started, and all of this?

Monica Chambers: 5:50

Well, in the sickness aspect, it I just have felt like the Lord just often would create opportunities for me to have good conversations with people about my faith and stuff like that. Honestly, in my, how I felt called LIS to almost be I went to art school. So I was planning on being a graphic designer, work at like a marketing agency or something like that. And like that was going to be I really saw like, that's where I was going to be sent to. So my way of sadness has often been very much connected to a vocation I, I now am a personal trainer and a fitness instructor. And so like, the path kind of deviated a little, but that centeredness of saying like where I am, that's really where I feel God has called me to be incarnation Aliy sent?

Joshua Johnson: 6:51

Well, it's a great place to be able to operate in those things, wherever you are. I think, you know, 98% of Christians are out there are not paid vocational. Christians, we're all called to be sent. And wherever we are, whatever we're doing, we're called to unveil the kingdom of gods that people can step into it and live into it. How did you two How did you two meet and start to go on this journey together?

Monica Chambers: 7:21

So we I met Jeremy sister at a young professionals group in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I'm originally from Costa Rica, and my family moved to the US as missionaries to the US, and we landed in Lancaster of all places. Right?

Joshua Johnson: 7:35

You wanted the Amish?

Monica Chambers: 7:39

Yeah, thanks. So I got connected to her sister, she had actually gone to the same art school that I was currently going to at the time. And we just had really good connections, they had done a lot of work in Costa Rica. And so we just had a lot of common points, I guess, of connection. And so then he was in Chicago for seminary, and then we, he was home and his sister introduced us. We were kind of strangers to each other for like, a couple of years. And then his sister invited me to go as a translator, to a missions trip in Belize that they were doing. And so on that chip, we connected a lot more and as they say the rest is history.

Joshua Johnson: 8:24

And so what does it look like for you guys to work? Day to day? What is it? I know you've done a lot of micro church planting some other different church planting all over the world. And here in the United States? What does that look like day to day for your life and and how things work? And and what's happening?

Jeremy Chambers: 8:47

Yeah, so Mike, you mentioned micro church planning. It's something that we've been doing for many years. We have another passion of ours is equipping other, we say like missional practitioners. We noticed this in Richmond, Virginia, we were there about 10 years and there was a lot of friends who were doing missional work in one way or another and they were kind of alone and needed camaraderie. And, you know, these are people who are pioneers, they're stepping out into creative endeavors. And we just have a heart to help gather people like that and help them get equipped. But also, those are the kinds of people that encourage and nourish us to so it's a very mutual sort of relationship. So we were a part of a group help help to start up a group there in Richmond for missional practitioners. And here in Denver area, we're helping to lead a group it's called the panto collective. It was started by rolling Smith down in Colorado Springs. But we said hey, there needs to be one up here in the Denver area. So a lot of what we do is we're trying to come alongside I'd others who are doing creative ministry and help them to do it well and be sustained and well equipped.

Monica Chambers: 10:09

Which that kind of goes into the other question you asked earlier the of like, how do we get into, like the sweet, like spiritual practices and stuff like that. And a big thing was as we have been for ourselves and Asif connected with a lot of other Michelle practitioners, it's just really easy, both in in because of the good and because of the difficult, we get really involved in doing a lot of the work. And we become very quickly focused on that, as opposed to focusing on being with the Lord being with Jesus, renewing ourselves recharging ourselves. And so as we both experienced some burnout, as we were church planting, and as we connected with other missional practitioners were like, can there be What are ways in which we can still be sustained in the work and not become cynical, not not become annoyed even by the work, but actually renewed in the Lord. And so then we can actually give out to others better?

Joshua Johnson: 11:13

Well, I think a lot of burnout happens when we're not connected with God, when, as we're going out and doing the work. And then if we're not connected with God, if we're not doing our spiritual disciplines or practices that we need to do, then what happens is we are the ones that are focused on, we're focused on ourselves, we're doing it out of our own strength. You know, it's a lot of mess can happen. You know, I have I've seen, you know, different religious orders, like the Society of Jesus, which is a Catholic religious order. Jared Boyd's. missional order in Ohio, both takes both contemplation and action together. And so these religious orders are starting to do that. What does it look like for you to take these spiritual practices, and in a, in a micro church, and in a missional, community type setting? That's not like this traditional religious order. But I think when we're talking about movements, and you're talking about micro church, sometimes things are, you know, on the margins, they're messy, they're, they're a little messy. But so what does that look like for you how to merge those two things together these spiritual practices, this contemplation with action and mission?

Jeremy Chambers: 12:40

Yeah, that's a great question. And it you know, it's interesting, because we we pull a lot from church history. So in the first 1000 years, I mean, you think of, there's been addictive nurse, and John Kassian. And these are, these were church leaders that saw the false dichotomy of mission and contemplation as if they were as if they had to be separated. And these guys worked hard to bring it together. And a lot of their studying a lot of their practices and a lot of others throughout church history has, I would say richly informed what we're doing in terms of having communities that aim to be understanding that when we're doing ministry, we're we're genuinely ministering to image bearers, right, this is not a transactional thing this is. And so we have to be able to look at people clearly seeing this person in front of me bears the image of God. And, and to see that there's mercy and grace and love for this person. And part of that comes from first sitting in the mercy and grace and love of God, like the contemplative part. So it's the feeling that happens from being with the Lord, and that there's a gravitas that comes out of a person who is truly transformed by the presence of God and encountering God that then feels and enables appropriate missional type endeavor. So we see that true mission is not at all divorced from a lifestyle of really soaking in the Lord. And I know I'm a little bit I'm kind of painting with broad strokes right now. But was that kind of answering your question? Do you want me to get a little deeper in it?

Joshua Johnson: 14:46

I want you to get a little deeper as we're so I think those those broad brushstrokes are really helpful to say, and this isn't a new practice. This is something that's been done, and the history of the church and throughout the history of the church and we need to meld these two things together. It's a holistic approach, right? If we just have one without the other, you know, it's gonna get ugly, and things are gonna be disrupted and broken. In the end, right? This is our life with God is very holistic. And so, Monica, tell me, what are the pain points of missional practitioners that you have seen that really now then says, Okay, you need to root yourself in some of these spiritual practices. Yeah,

Monica Chambers: 15:36

I think a big one is that we really start and it's subtle, and but we start to put our identity into what we can produce. And even just the fact that we are doing work, as opposed to who we are in Christ. And so that point is one where for for us, for me, practicing silence and solitude, for example, which is such a hard practice to do hasn't been really helpful, because, you know, I think it was Richard Foster, someone said, that we control people with our words. And so to practice silence, even with God to say, I don't want to control you with my words right now. And actually, when they'll hear you, I like to be in your presence, I want to listen, that changes. And the hardest thing for me when I was first practicing silence, and solitude was the feeling of not not being productive. And so it was like life could be doing so many, quote, unquote, better things. And this time, than just sitting here with in what feels like I'm doing nothing. And yet, in that practice, there is a reaffirmation of God's love. You know, like, even he said to Jesus, like you're my beloved Son, with whom I'm well pleased before he started his ministry. So can we constantly be coming back to that? Reminder. And so that's like one of the practices and there's several other practices that help address that factor. I would say maybe another, it and kind of connected to that is listening. And we often come with maybe an agenda of just thinking, like, I have something to give to whomever I'm with. And we might not spend as much time actually listening. And so to practice that, even spend a day just aiming to really listen to the people who are around us who we're encountering, throughout our day, that starts to create a better dynamic, in which we are actually the person that we are interacting with, genuinely feels love and heard. And we now can, in this spirit, also discern what this person actually needs as a person coming in assuming that we know from the get go,

Joshua Johnson: 18:05

Sherman, can you tell me a two stories? One where you were not grounded in spiritual practices, or silence and solitude? You weren't listening? Well, and what a destructive pattern that that had in your life. And then when you were grounded in those spiritual practices, how did that change the way that you went about doing mission?

Jeremy Chambers: 18:31

You know, it was around 2017. Monique and I were both going through a bit of burnout. And maybe we were working really hard. We were involved in about, we were simultaneously involved in five missional communities at once. And somehow, you know, we thought we were, we were young, we thought we could handle it. Right? So I mean, already, there's maybe maybe a little bit of a little bit of pride there. You know, like, I can handle I can do this, you know, I remember the thrill of results, you know, you do things and they work and you I remember some thoughts that, you know, just some like, it's kind of like these little creeping kind of thoughts of like, wow, I'm doing a great job or, Oh, man, like, look at what's happening because of the work I'm doing as opposed to that centered, thought of, wow, praise the Lord, that I'm able to participate in what he's doing. Right. And so it was there was a tiny paradigm shift towards self towards achievement. And I was, you know, a little just a small percentage of my heart was trying to prove something to me. I didn't feel like I had to prove it to anyone else, but I had to prove to myself that I was doing something for the Lord, right. And burnout was a good remedy. At least it opened up the door to the remedies. It was a rough time, a lot of things went wrong suddenly, and everything that was so exciting and fun, suddenly, you know, there was cynicism and disappointment. And I remember, I mean, it drove me to a place of prayer. I reached out to a mentor who was just pouring into me, and actually in the both of Mike and I, we got some counseling. And out of that, it was like, there was like this, this little remembrance of like, you know, I remember some stuff from Dallas Willard about silence and solitude. I remember reading some some of these books years ago, Ken Boas book conformed to His image, some of these practices that restore your soul. And so I mean, I started, I started praying through the 23rd Psalm every night before going to bed and praying through the Lord's prayer every morning when I would wake up. And we took a sabbatical. And I, I remember, at the beginning, the first month, it was a three month thing at the first month, it was like, if I stopped now, it would be inappropriate. At this at the second month, I remember thinking I could go back, but I'm not ready. And then after that third month, it was like the love of God was welling up, like, Mmm, this sounds cliche, but it was like a fire of love within me. And I just wanted to share love with people. And I will go and when we when we finished that sabbatical, I returned to friends and I just loved people again, in a way that I hadn't felt that loving years. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 22:11

Yeah, well, let's continue with that. What was the difference? Then after the love that welled up in you? How thick of back while you were involved in those five missional communities at the same time, and you were striving you were seeing some results? You were excited about that? There's some pride welling up in you. How did you the way that you worked shifts, after you started feeling that that love Well, up in you? Yeah,

Jeremy Chambers: 22:40

I would say we started working a lot smarter, not harder. We really chose to trust people, to really the goal is in missional, move mental thinking the goal is to empower leaders equip and launch them, not to micromanage them, or, you know, babysit them too long. And so there was a lot of people we're connected to where we said, hey, no, we do trust you with this, we're going to release you into it, and we're not going to you are our peers, we're not going to be like your heavy handed supervisors. Right. So that was a culture of freedom in my heart that I was extending to others. But also just some healthy boundaries, I would regularly remind myself, you don't have to do everything you you can, you can just take it one day at a time and understand that these that human limitations, it when we accept our limitations, that's actually an act of humility. And, and it's, it's part of what the Lord, I mean, everyone has to sleep every night. That's a basic human limitation, whether you like it or not, right, but you can accept it, and out of that acceptance, and you accept it in faith, knowing that God will guide me me like this, and, and His plan is good, and I can trust the Lord.

Monica Chambers: 24:05

And in turn with that, I think we also then really focused on prayer a lot more. Where it was like, with our limitations, we can't do this. But you can't do have these limitations. I'm just gonna ask you and they were like the little story of there was one night where we had like a Friday night and we were invited to like five different parties and events and things and we're trying to discern like, which one do we go to who you know, and we had we, and this is after the sabbatical and all of that. And we had this just moment of saying, well, whichever we choose, let's just pray that God will do his work and all the other ones that we can to be present. And because we know he is president, and they were and then actually we got some cool stories from some of those other ones as an end. We took that as an affirmation from God to be like, yeah, you You listen now. And then you released what you couldn't do. And you just said that I could do the work that you couldn't. And that that pattern of prayer, since then has only increased, both in the things that we know we will do and can do, and is asking for God to sustain and work through us. And also the things that we know we can't and well acknowledgement that we might have to disappoint some people when we say no, and but that God has many others in all these people's lives, and he himself is, is working in them that we don't have to be there.

Joshua Johnson: 25:41

Monica, what's the role of these spiritual practices in the communal setting? And a micro church setting? Or in a church planting team? How do these starts to help communally and how do they work as a whole? Yeah,

Monica Chambers: 25:57

I think the best way to practice these is in community, both, because some of the practices will be very natural and feel very normal for certain people. And for others, there some of the practices that they might want to resist the most. And when you're in a community, where you're interacting with others around that, and there is a freedom to say, this is great, I actually do this every day, and somebody else is like, I hate doing this. There is a mutual holding that everyone can have with one another, and a mutual encouragement. We have seen, you know, coming back to silence, for example, there's one thing when you do it on your own, but when you practice silence and community, it's just totally different. And in my opinion, there's almost more power in a way that are more more even more stillness that you can find, because you're with others practicing it. So the fact that you know, you're not doing it on your own actually helps you to do it. And, and I think there's a an aspect of conversation, that thing can happen. So when you are doing it in a group, one person will practice something in one way, and then someone else can share how they practice in another way. And we start to get more ideas and a greater picture of how this specific practice can actually be tangibly done.

Jeremy Chambers: 27:34

And I would just add to that, take, for example, gratitude. I mean, people do this at Thanksgiving. But you know, if you sit around a table, and everyone shares a few things, they're grateful for it, there's a contagious thing that happens where everyone's like, Well, yeah, I didn't think about that. And hearing the gratitude of others, affects you as well, right. And so that's a simple practice that can be done in community, or he doesn't like words of encouragement. In a in a community. That's amazing. Often, in our society, we're so used to orienting around negativity. When you get a group of people who orient around positive words of encouragement to each other, you'll see people like, they'll lean forward, their countenance changes, because they're not used to someone giving them personal praise, right. And it's, it's like their soul is like, it's almost like people get a little bit like, they look like a child. Like just there's already for what are you going, what are you going to do? And they soak, anybody wants

Joshua Johnson: 28:37

to give me some, some praise and affirmation. I'll receive it, you'll be helped me.

Jeremy Chambers: 28:44

Well, you do have great questions. So

Joshua Johnson: 28:48

thank you. Thank you. Well, I think it's important that we realize that this is for a community that we can do these practice these things together, that it's not just individual practices, that something that we think, you know, especially in the Western Church, we think, individually, we think of about ourselves a lot. Because you guys have you know, you're from Costa Rica, Monica. And, you know, Chairman, you've also seen a lot of church plants and works all over the worlds and the global south. How has your relationship with the global church informed the church community and community in the United States? Yeah,

Jeremy Chambers: 29:31

man, I love that question. It's I mean, so I grew up having amazing experiences with the the body of Christ in India, right, sitting on a dirt floor in a hut, eating rice with our hands and worshiping the Lord. In I've had experiences with the body of Christ in tribal areas of Africa, all over Africa where you know, Oh, yeah, I remember sitting in this tin hut, and the wind was blowing and the roof was slamming up and down and just making this crazy noise, but we were just belting out worship songs. And it was like the the percussion was the roof slamming up and down, and no one cared like, we were just worshiping the Lord. And these were the sort of experiences that when, when we started to do church planting in the US, Monique, and I had a lot of conversations. I mean, my My background is in studying Intercultural Studies and missiology. So, we kind of said, Hey, look at what we've observed in indigenous churches at a global global level, can we pull some principles from that and apply it here? And we were looking at, like, post Christian context. So can we apply it in a way where the people who, who may not want to walk into a church building, they, they may be much more inclined to come into a house, in organic environment? And, and be with people around a table? Just like, Jesus, so many of his amazing moments are happening around meals, right, like, so like, Can we can we apply some of that organic, just ways of life, into our church planting and micro church work? And, and I mean, I think there was a faithful work, and there continues to be faithful work that comes out of those transcultural principles that we've been, I mean, we, even today, in our neighborhood, and little tin, we are often eating with people playing games with people. But that's where a lot of real spiritual conversations open up. And, and it's happening even more here than we've had anywhere else. I mean, it's like the Lord's doing something really amazing in our neighborhood right now.

Monica Chambers: 32:08

Yeah, I think there's something really beautiful too, I think too often, as humans, we tried to point out the differences that we have, but having experienced so many different cultures, humans are humans in a lot in very similar ways, in a lot of ways. And, and some of the things that fill us to our deeper core, as humans are very similar, like that aspect of eating with one another, like, that's something that across the globe, no matter what culture, it is, that is a important component, in one way or another in some cultures more than others, but it's still an important component. And so, for us, we are even as we were experiencing a lot of these practices, and considering which ones even to, to put in the book, there was a bit of a thought of that of saying, what are the practices that, you know, this, it just fills us, as humans, you know, what I and some of these things other, even other people practice in different ways. And we believe practicing all of these practices, focused on Jesus being centered on the Trinity is what will really give us the deepest fulfillment, and as they're doing it with the body of Christ, but they allow us to experience many things that even we see Jesus, having practiced himself with his disciples, and they're very, most of the time, they're not very flashy. And there's a good thing to that, again, I think it strips away a lot of the extra stuff we want to add to ourselves. And it brings us to a more center, that that removes a lot of those extra labels or extra things that we're trying to place upon ourselves. And we can really be who God has intended each one of us to be.

Joshua Johnson: 34:12

I think that's beautiful. I think, you know, throughout your book, you have 31 practices that you can walk through, and it's very practical that you say, Hey, you could actually do it, and this is how you do it. This is how you practice it. And, you know, you walk people through those things. Are, is there a practice for you that you wanted to include? That's not that people wouldn't think as a traditional spiritual practice? It's something that people might be surprised about

Jeremy Chambers: 34:43

Visio Divina, it's a Latin term meaning like, like divine or holy site. And it didn't, so we had practices with groups. And it was it was considered, but again, was only 31 days that we were going to do so. But it's the idea of that you, you go about your day, or you, you intentionally pay attention to what you see. And if there's anything that you see that triggers some sort of spiritual response, or you know, some people actually, for this kind of practice, they may use artwork. Some use, like historic Christian artwork, some use nature, right, like, and so Monica and I actually do it when we're on that hike. You know, you pause and you look at a small plant and say, Wow, what is this say about God? What kind of God would make this plant? It's interesting, right? Just that question alone, kind of opens it up. And so it's a contemplative, reflective sort of exercise. We do it in our apartment, sometimes I just, you know, take take, like 10 minutes walk around and just look at things and, and something prompts a spiritual thought. So it's, it's sort of like, is there anything that the Lord wants to use to? Prompt like, just opening up my awareness to the kingdom of heaven?

Monica Chambers: 36:19

I think we have one that's, we call the acts of kindness. And so that one for a lot of people doesn't necessarily feel very spiritual, per se. But it's just highlighting the fact that as we are intentionally, someone recently started doing Kingdom mischief in a good way. In the world, around us with people, we're intentionally thinking about how to do acts of kindness that really has a spiritual and eternal effect.

Joshua Johnson: 36:50

Is there a practice that you guys have done together as a married couple that has helped you and sustained your relationship together?

Jeremy Chambers: 37:03

I mean, there's no practice in the book that we haven't done together. Yeah. And all of them the secrecy

Monica Chambers: 37:10

one, technically.

Jeremy Chambers: 37:17

But I think you're kind of saying is like, is there something that we would say is like, been a special word for you,

Joshua Johnson: 37:23

for you to? And what is it because I think these are the, this is my thought pattern. We think these are good for us individually, and it will sustain us and our relationship is Lord. These are good for a church community, our small group that we could do communally. How is it helpful in a marriage and especially in a marriage that you two have, where you're not only just married, like, like a traditional married couple, but you're also being set together? Like, and that's a, that's the special thing. I mean, my wife and I are in that same boat, we we lead a missions organization together, we've done a lot together. And so it's, it's unique, and it's special. And so what can sustain you to know that you have a relationship that is not just transactional. And it's not just work based and mission base, but it is a marriage between the two. And what can sustain that in the midst of doing missionary work.

Monica Chambers: 38:27

Yeah, I'll give a practice. And then I do have something to say to that. But I think a practice that was really helpful as we were experiencing, this was praying the hours, where we pray morning prayers, we were then. And actually, we started getting into this, especially during the pandemic. So we were like, We off, we'd spend a lot of time together. But in the pandemic, it was even more so. And so we had our afternoons are like noon time together also. So we were doing prayers then. And then we were doing person before bed. And that was really not that we didn't pray together beforehand. But doing something that was especially structured in that way, was for both of us giving us a lot of life. The thing I wanted to say really quick, is that something that has been really cool is that so in that scenario, I was actually the one who felt very inclined towards doing this. And initially, Jeremy was kind of like, Man, I don't know. But I wouldn't be like, Hey, I'm gonna do the prayers. And he'd be like, cool. Yeah, I'll do them with you. And then there were other prayers that he or other practices that he felt very inclined tourism. He'd be like, Hey, I'm about to do this. Do you want to join me? And if even if it was a practice that was like, meant for me, I'd be like, yeah, sure, I'll join you. And then I was super blessed by it. And so there's the dynamic of us intentionally doing something together, but there's also just joining in with what the other was feeling drawn towards even if we'd necessarily didn't feel that way, it was still a blessing of joining in with each other and the practices. Right?

Jeremy Chambers: 40:10

This isn't in the book. But something that we're doing right now is we're the and this is just because we're geeks, but we're reading some really heavy theology, some, some kind of like, philosophy of religion, some dense stuff, and then we're dialoguing around it. And that's been like recently, it's been really, really cool. Like, the the only problem is, we do it late at night. And so then we get excited. And we're like, Oh, we got to keep talking. But then like, we need, we do need to go to bed. But like, we're just too excited. But you know, like, so like, I would say, quality theological dialogue is valuable to us.

Joshua Johnson: 40:57

Yeah, I think that's good. I want to know, like, what's your experience with that, Monica? And I'm assuming that you're reading an English, which is a second language for you? And is there a difference? I know that in Spanish, there's like, if you read the Bible, in Spanish, you're gonna get some, sometimes different meanings, you're gonna get some things that we don't see an English, if you're going to read it in the original Greek or Hebrew, you're gonna get some things that we don't see an English. How does that play a part, as in this relationship with, with language? And seeing things from different perspectives? Yeah.

Monica Chambers: 41:37

Yeah, when I'm doing some more intentional, especially scripture study, I do really enjoy having English and Spanish, and even then multiple, which has, like versions of, of them. Because of that, yeah, you just, and that has actually been a really fun dynamic in our conversations that I'd be like, Well, this one in Spanish pulls this thing out, and like, and then just being like it, do we see that even in the Greek is that how, why are we verbally saying it this way in Spanish, and then in an English, it sounds completely different? And to me, I've actually enjoyed it, because I feel like it expounds like, in some of the scenarios, it's like, yes, to all of it, you know, it's like, it has that component that you see in Spanish, and it has that component in English. And so it just becomes this one word or phrase becomes even more robust, which is really fun. Yeah, it's been interesting with the more theological sorts of readings and things I've done most of those in English. And, I mean, there are several obviously, there's a lot that is, has been even translated in Spanish, but that has been interesting to be like, okay, so even, especially if it's older English to be like, What do these words mean, put together in this way? So,

Joshua Johnson: 43:13

I have for native English speakers to know that as well. So, yeah,

Monica Chambers: 43:18

yeah. But even then, that, you know, it does draw out certain concepts that are different than if we were reading it in more modern English. So yeah, I love language. I love like getting into even like, etymology of like, words and stuff like that. And it's like, it's so fun. So I love geeking out over all of that.

Joshua Johnson: 43:42

I like that. I know that, you know, you've been doing a lot of church planting, micro church planting in the United States and around the world, but I really want to know, what do you see that as hopeful about the church right now in the western context, where a lot of people and traditional churches are seeing some crumbling around them. But what do you see as hopeful in the church?

Jeremy Chambers: 44:13

Yeah, so much so much. And, uh, you know, I think it's, it's sad that a lot of these, the amazing things that are happening are often off the radar and unheard of. I would say there are. We were connected to a lot of multigenerational work. So people of all ages, who are creatively engaging the mission around them with a fresh a fresh faith, to realize that to serve the Lord you you don't have to go off and be a pastor or a missionary, but you can be the, the, the salt of the earth and the light To the earth, in your neighborhood or in your workplace. I think that's

Joshua Johnson: 45:05

in like a personal trainer. Fitness Instructor.

Jeremy Chambers: 45:08

Yeah. And, yeah, there's been there's so much of that happening these days where I mean, we just met with some friends yesterday. And they were like talking about their, their business as janitorial work and selling. Like, what it was like custom cabinetry stuff. But how are they seeing that they're ministering to their clients and praying for their clients, and they're on mission with Jesus in their businesses. And that's, that's a paradigm that, at least when I was younger, I didn't hear that too often. But now I see people we meet tons of people who are activated in it.

Monica Chambers: 45:49

Yeah, I think something hopeful, too, that we are seeing and that we are hearing many others. Experiencing also is that most people really don't have an issue with Jesus. And so I think a lot of the crumbling that some people might be seeing, are weak in the traditional church. Yeah, yeah. And in the traditional church, and even some of the questioning validly that a lot of people who maybe were in that church or who are outside of the church, who are like, What is going on here? Those are actually we're seeing that there is an opportunity for revival with from within, that God is creating, and for those who are really taking the steps to say, really, what is the good news of Jesus and His Kingdom? What is false, what does following him mean? What does being the church and his body actually look like? That starts to actually expand further than some of the maybe smaller imaginations that we had had about those. And so we are having lots of really cool conversations with younger people, with people who have been who, you know, they say they're spiritual, but really, they they are like, very drawn to Jesus in a lot of ways. And, and we see, we truly do see, you know, Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail against his church. And we are seeing that his true church will prevail. And a cool thing that we heard recently, we have some friends in Sweden who are doing some national work. And they're seeing a lot of a lot of younger people becoming very interested in seeing themselves, like what Jeremy was saying, as sent ones in the way that they feel they are meant to live. And they want to live authentically as followers of Jesus, at their school, at their workplaces, in their neighborhoods. And they're thinking creatively about that. And Sweden, having been a country that really became very post Christian, for for a while is having this new expression throughout these younger people in this way, and that's just again, that's something that a lot of people won't even hear about. But it's happening, and we're seeing, and we're hearing it happen. That's

Joshua Johnson: 48:25

amazing. You know, we have some of our missionaries in Europe that have seen a lot of incredible things happen, because they're in, you know, simple church, micro church contexts where people are being sent, they're seeing themselves as sent. And hopefully, they're gonna start to teach us and the United States in North America where it's more and more post, Christian Post Christendom. And we're going to learn from them because they're, they're actually seeing some incredible things as well. And we're starting to see that in the US, which is really encouraging to me. So hopefully, people go out and get your book, The Art of missional spirituality, which be great. And the starts then dive deep into these spiritual practices so that they could live as sent once and connected with God at the same time, what is your hope for your readers? What would you like them to get from this church and what practical steps to take after they have dived into it? I

Jeremy Chambers: 49:24

mean, two things that'd be the first is the the heart of the whole project is that we're hoping that people will experience that Psalm 37 for reality, where it talks about delight in the Lord. It get that verse gets quoted a lot, but people think of it as transactional, right delight in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. But what I think a lot of people don't realize is like, if we're invited to delight in the Lord, it means he is Actually delightful. And that is our heart that through this book through these practices people rediscover the God who knows how to woo their souls, who has made them to find their greatest delight in him. And I think that's really lost on a lot of people, you know, you just people have this image of like an angry God who's ticked off at them. And but no, this is the God who's like, rejoicing over you, and loves your soul and wants to like, like, help you along and grow you. And so I mean, that would be the first hope is that people just rediscover the delightfulness of God. But the other hope is that, that people do discover they can be on mission with Jesus, and with a few others. We're not, you don't just go out on mission alone, but like, you take a few with you. And the mission can be a beautiful place to be

Joshua Johnson: 51:06

this good. Couple quick questions for you at the end that I like to ask one. So this is for both of you. If you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Jeremy Chambers: 51:16

I'll jump in because I think I've actually I talk about this a lot. So this question. And it's really funny, because recently, for a number of years, my aunt like, This is so weird that you asked that question for because for a number of years, I was like, I would tell myself do this, do this, do this. And the funny thing is recently, I was like, you know, you think you warn yourself, stay away from this person don't do this thing. And that's like, I had this kind of like, I was like, laying awake one night, I couldn't go to sleep. And I was thinking about, what would I tell myself, I can go back and it's like, I wouldn't warn myself of anything. All the hardship, all the trials, all the difficulties, I needed those things. And so I can tell you what I wouldn't, I wouldn't prevent myself from any of the mistakes, because of how much I've seen the Lord redeem those things. So that would probably be the one thing that I would then say, is, Hey, I can't tell you about your future. Because you know, the mistakes, you're gonna make the heartbreak, the the seasons of darkness, that you're gonna go through all the pain, those, every single one of those things will be redeemed, some of them take years, some of the wounds take years to heal. But all of it will be redeemed, because that's who our God is a redeemer. So I would really be that line of hope. Yeah,

Monica Chambers: 52:56

I would, I would say to myself, which is actually, I did have around a Meyer in my early 20s, I did have this, but I would say to myself, like you really are loved by God. And you don't have to try to do anything to try to, you know, earn that or perceive that, like just receive it. Because that as a 21 year old, like kind of was almost saying, Well, I don't deserve that kind of love. So I would push it away. And so I would tell myself, just just receive it.

Joshua Johnson: 53:40

That's good. Anything you have been reading or watching lately, you could recommend. We

Jeremy Chambers: 53:46

are I mean, one of the one of the books we're both kind of revisiting is prayer and Providence by Terence teason. And that is it's an assessment of 10 theological systems and how they each approach the topic of prayer with respect to the providence of God. And so that's some of the heavier reading that we're doing. And it's just, it's a great book, if you're into going deep with stuff. I mean, like, there's a lot of philosophical language there. So like, if it's dense, yeah, I would almost say like, if someone hasn't ever, maybe studied philosophy, you're going to need a dictionary and, you know, in a good, you're gonna need some other resources to help interpret that resource.

Monica Chambers: 54:36

Yeah, but it's an excellent book. Yeah. Right now I'm studying more of the life of Francis of Assisi. And I, he I feel like just had such a crazy life and really has impacted like, Christianity because of it. So I've been wanting to learn more about him. So I'm reading that the life of Francis or something like that. It's called by the how do you say as a Bonaventure, fun adventure?

Joshua Johnson: 55:09

Nice, great recommendations. Thank you. That's good. How can people connect with you guys? Where would you like to point people to? How can people go out and get your book?

Jeremy Chambers: 55:20

Yeah, so I mean, our book is on Amazon, the art of missional spirituality. We do have a website that has a bunch of other podcasts and blogs and resources that we've developed. And also has links to our other book Kingdom calm tours. But yeah, though, that website is J E. M. O chambers.com. So je for Jeremy, Mo, for Monica. So we say GMO chambers emo. Yeah. But yeah, that's, that's a, that's a good starting point. If people want to get in touch.

Joshua Johnson: 55:54

All right, GMO GMO chambers. And go to the website and a Jeremy Monica, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for walking us through your story, how you got started to be on mission with Jesus, some of the church plants, the things that you have seen, and walking through the disappointments, the burnout, the places where not putting these spiritual practices into place actually prevented you from seeing the flourishing that God has for you and your life. And that now once he started to put those practices in place, that flourishing came, Love came, you're able to share that with others that this is not just an individual, spirituality, but it is a communal spirituality is be done with other people. And we could walk in community and do these practices together. So highly recommend people go out, get the art of missional spirituality, put these things into practice, dive deep in these spiritual practices. Some of these will hit for you, some may not hit, but find the ones that work for you to go deeper to be connected with God and go on mission with others bring others along on the journey, because this is who we are called to be. We're called to be sent once. So thank you, Jeremy Monica, it was a fantastic conversation. Yeah. Thank you.

Monica Chambers: 57:14

Yeah. Thank you for having us.