Ep. 199 Ross Kane - Is There Any Good News in Politics?

Politics is a dirty word for a lot of people. We think about strife, conflict, waging war for power. But is there good news in politics? Well Ross Kane thinks so. In this conversation, we reflect on his latest book The Good News of Church Politics. Ross discusses how politics is about organizing common life and decision making in communities, large and small. He talks about how Jesus navigated politics skillfully in the Gospels. He also describes how congregations can cultivate "politics of love" by starting with caring for their own members and moving outward in concentric circles to care for neighbors and address issues in their wider communities. We focus on practical ways congregations can organize interdependently and engage in "bottom-up" social change by addressing local injustices. So join us as we discover the good news of church politics.

Ross Kane teaches ethics and theology at Virginia Theological Seminary, where he also directs their doctoral programs. He's an author and pastor who writes about the complex intersections between theology, ethics, and culture.

Ross' Book:
The Good News of Church Politics

Ross' Recommendation:
Neither Settler Nor Native

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Transcript

Ross Kane: 0:00

In some circles of Christianity, we've sort of tried to sanitize Jesus away from politics. But it's clear that the Gospels don't let us do that. In some circles of Christianity, Jesus is like constantly the agitator, but also Jesus actually is he's more than that too, right? I mean, what he's not just an agitator when he when the woman is called adultery, he has this profound presence of God's caring love. So I mean, Jesus, just the guy can read a room, right? I mean that you see that over and over in the Gospels and and once I just put that lens on the Gospels, I could just saw Oh, yeah, like, Jesus is navigating politics all around them.

Joshua Johnson: 1:00

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create an impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. Our show is powered by you, the listener, if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides, and more. Go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week, and go leave a rating and review. It's easy, it only takes a second. And that helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit the five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening, as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included David Fitch, Scot McKnight and Preston sprinkle. You go back listen to those episodes and more. But today's guest is Ross Kane. Ross Kane teaches ethics in theology at Virginia Theological Seminary, where He also directs their doctoral programs. He's an author and pastor who writes about the complex intersections between theology, ethics and culture. Politics is a dirty word for a lot of people. We think about strife conflict, waging war for power. But Is there good news and politics? Well, Ross Cain, thanks. So in this conversation, we reflect on his latest book the good news of church politics. Ross discusses how politics is about organizing common life and decision making in communities large and small. He talks about how Jesus navigated politics skillfully in the Gospels. He also describes how congregations can cultivate politics of love, by starting with caring for their own members and moving outward and concentric circles to care for their neighbors, and address issues in their wider communities. We focus on practical ways congregations can organize interdependently and engage in bottom up social change by addressing local injustices. So join us as we discover the good news of church politics. Here is my conversation with Ross Kane. Ross, welcome to shifting culture, really excited to have you on thank you for turning on your microphone and being here.

Ross Kane: 3:38

I appreciate the invitation. It's a real pleasure to join you.

Joshua Johnson: 3:41

Yeah. So Ross, set this up for us. You wrote about the good news of church politics. Why this book for you? And can you then, as the start per conversation, define what you mean by politics.

Ross Kane: 3:58

I wrote the book, largely out of serving in the congregation. And this congregation was based outside Washington, DC. And politics was sort of always on our brain. And when we thought about politics, we thought about national politics. And then there was just something nagging in me that didn't feel right about that. And I was working on my PhD in Christian ethics at the time and was reading a lot of Political Theology. And there's a lot of work in Political Theology and African Studies and elsewhere that says, Look, Politics isn't only about the state politics is about how we form a common life. It's about how we make community and that just reorientation in politics. Helped me become a better pastor in that congregation. It helped me see that. You know what, you know, Politics isn't only about content flicked and strife it's not only about the will to power. But politics is about how even in the most ordinary ways we form common bonds together as people. And I saw because I was working in the congregation while reading all these books from my PhD, that the, for Christians, the congregation is that first place where we encounter common life beyond just our own family, right. For Christians, the congregation is the first place where we engage political life. So by politics, you know, to get to the definition that I kind of used throughout the book. You know, politics is the process of sorting out how communities live together and make decisions. And those communities can be very small. I mean, that definition can apply to like an online chat room, or they can be enormous that definition can apply to the United Nations, right? That's what politics is about is organizing our common life sorting out how we make decisions together. And then that just gives us a whole reorientation, that enables our congregations to be places where we can start to live out politics, that is actually good news. Like, the title of the book is not completely a joke, right? My telling isn't entirely to my cheek. Because churches can actually be places where we can find good news and politics.

Joshua Johnson: 6:43

Yeah, so if our our politics in our congregation are there is how we organize our common life together. And so we're starting to work together, we have some interdependence and love one to another. How does that reflect? So do we stay in the congregation and just organize ourselves? And we're, we're doing a great job here. We have the right kind of, of politics, but it doesn't really affect the neighborhood, our community, or even our even the nation or the nations around the world? What, what are we doing here? Is it just focused right here on the church and the congregation? Or does it somehow bleed out into the way that we live, work and play in our own communities outside of our congregations?

Ross Kane: 7:35

I really liked the way you put that, you know, I think of these different realms of politics as really concentric circles, if you will, like, and that sort of center concentric circle of Christian politics is our congregation like that's the place where we should start, in terms of forming a community that is based in love and justice. And so what does that look like that looks like us caring for one another as a community that looks for us that looks like us, as a congregation, having you know, something as simple as a coffee hour that's based around welcome and care for everybody who's there, as opposed to sort of, you know, cliques just talking to each other in coffee hour, which of course, never happens. But but but that's sort of that that first concentric circle. And you're exactly right. It's so that and that's what bleeds out. And so the next concentric circle is to me the the neighborhood around the congregation itself. And, and I've found in my own ministry, as a pastor that if you've got the first circle, then the next one actually comes pretty easily that congregations who really know how to care for one another, and know how to organize their own congregational, political life, their own congregation decision making, in ways that reflect God's love, congregations that can do all that they work in, they work in their wider community fairly easily. That's a pretty natural move for them to go to that sort of next concentric circle of work in the neighborhood. And then, of course, like when you get involved in the neighborhood, and you encounter the struggles in the struggles of neighbors, that does take you into city life. So in my own experience, again, one of the main issues that came up for me as a pastor in the neighborhood was how expensive it was to live in this city that was, you know, inside the Washington beltway where the price of housing was just skyrocketing. And we saw our neighbors struggling and you know what like, that takes us to that next concentric circle we have to engage with the city politics and and and advocate and be involved in trying to relieve some of the suffering of neighbors through through through city politics. And so that then becomes kind of that next concentric circle. And then, you know, of course, circles beyond that would be like state politics and national politics and that sort of thing. But I think it's pretty unhealthy to as a congregation to just sort of leapfrog from the congregation to nation state politics. Because I think that that kind of engagement can really lack roots. And, and, and, you know, this, this, you know, might be something to talk more about down the road, but it can get the church really ensconced into politics as partisan rather than politics, as you know, being founded in just loving your neighbors. Right. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 10:54

I think that's what the the church in America right now is, is reeling from as partisan politics, which they are leapfrogging in the community into the nation state politics, and what does it look like to I'm on this team, you're on that team? And it's just a it's an ugly division within the church? How can we start to then organize our congregations that are church around a place where we can have that healthy dialogue, and we can love one another, we could see each other and start to work together? Even when we disagree, even when things aren't the, you know, a happy go lucky. We could all, you know, serve soup on a Sunday? You know?

Ross Kane: 11:45

That's, that's that's a huge question. And especially right now in our, you know, wider national political life. You know, the challenge of partisan politics is that partisan politics really encourages us to find enemies, instead of learning to live together as neighbors. And so to me, the response is still in that commandment of Jesus to love your neighbor. And that's, that has to be where it all begins. And, you know, I don't have some vision in this book that, you know, people could, you know, congregations can, you know, suddenly be engaged in neighbor love as politics. And, you know, all the Biden supporters and Trump supporters join hands and sing Kumbaya or something like that, like it's not simple. At the same time, I, I do believe that loving neighbors, as a congregation, in ordinary congregational life, is kind of a necessary first step for Christians, as we engage in politics. And I do think, you know, you mentioned like serving together soup kitchen. I think that there's a lot more to that, than we often recognize. I mean, in most of the ministries that I've been a part of, in my congregations, we've had Democrats and Republicans alike working together, whether it's in the soup kitchen, whether it's in the Emergency Assistance Program, then we don't even agree about what the policy should be, that addresses this issue. But it's a start, I mean, it's actually a place to begin. And, you know, these congregate our congregations can be places where we can begin to heal some of the, the, the divisions of partisanship, sometimes

Joshua Johnson: 13:52

this is how we engage political life is we basically say we're neutral, just go vote, whatever you want, do whatever you want. We're just going to talk about Jesus here. But Jesus Himself, I don't think is very neutral. He's, he's on the side of the marginalized, the neglected, he's on the side of, you know, a love for neighbor and for all people. He's on the side of justice. When there's, you know, injustice issues. How do we start to organize ourselves around what Jesus wants and what he's for? And not just say, it's a neutral, free for all. And we're just going to be like, not talk about anything, and we're going to be okay here together and we're just going to talk about our nice little Jesus stories.

Ross Kane: 14:47

Yeah, I think it has to be that we stand in the place where Jesus stands, you know, just like you said, you know, we are as Christians on the side of the marginalized or on the side of For those who are suffering, you know whether those who are suffering oppression, suffering from, you know, especially in our country, racism and so many of the, you know, historical sins of racism and displacement and other things. And we stand where Jesus stands, and we let the politics emerge from that. But we don't get the politics from the sort of sort of immediate partisan engagements. I mean, I just think it has to be more bottom ups in that

Joshua Johnson: 15:37

it needs to be bottom up, I think that you have you have a partner Bucky talk about how Jesus dealt with politics, and his own life and ministry and what he was about, can you give us an example of, of Jesus engaging in politics, and being on the side of love, so that it could be a good example for us to move into the church to go from bottom up?

Ross Kane: 16:05

You know, one of the things as I was writing this book that kept surprising me was actually how political some of the most ordinary events in the gospels really are. There's all these interactions that Jesus has with scribes and Pharisees. And I think, you know, to your earlier question, we've kind of forgotten how political those engagements were, we sort of have scribes and Pharisees there was really sort of imagine them as these largely religious figures of their day. But like religion and politics weren't separated in conceptually in the same way they are for us as Americans, and, you know, post separation of church and state political philosophies and all that kind of stuff, right. I mean, Pharisees and scribes were had a lot of political power. And Jesus is engaging them in ways that have such political acumen. And that was the big surprise to me was just seeing how like, politically clever, Jesus is, in the Gospels. You know, you take like, examples where, you know, scribes and Pharisees, you want to arrest Jesus right then and there. But then they see that all there's this big crowd around them, well, we can't really arrest Jesus in front of this big crowd. So you know, it was late on the Gospels, they, you know, Jesus gets arrested when he's just in his disciples and the garden, right. And, you know, think of when Jesus has asked, you know, by whose authority are you doing these things, you know, as a John the Baptist or whatever, and he sort of uses John the Baptist as cover, right? I mean, it's really, it's really a very, it's really very clever. So, you know, Jesus is, is is always kind of a bending. He's bending assumptions and surprising his opponents. And at the same time, should I even say opponents? Because, look, I mean, in John, chapter three, Nicodemus, the Pharisee, seeks them out, and he says, You're not and Jesus doesn't say, You're my enemy. He just brings them right in and becomes part of Jesus's movement. And the only thing that's really striking to me in the Gospels about Jesus's political acumen is how, you know, he talks to scribes and Pharisees one way, but then the way that he talks to people who are struggling and suffering, his entire demeanor just changes, you know, how does Jesus treat the woman caught in adultery? He is so kind and so gentle. So, you know, in some circles of Christianity, we we sort of tried to sanitize Jesus away from politics, but it's clear that the Gospels don't let us do that. In some circles of Christianity. Jesus is like constantly the agitator, but also Jesus actually is he's more than that to write. I mean, what he's not just an agitator, when he when the woman is called the adultery he is this profound presence of God's caring love. So I mean, Jesus, just the guy can read a room, right? I mean, and that you see that over and over in the Gospels and and once I just put that lens on the Gospels, I could just saw Oh, yeah, like, Jesus is navigating politics all around them. And and that's, that's again, where I think that can really help our congregations because we see that, you know, Jesus uses all these different strategies and, you know, pastors and lay leaders we should to, like if a situation calls for us to reach out and profound care the way Jesus reaches out to the woman caught in adultery. That's what we should do. If the situation calls for us to, you know, call out a scribe or a Pharisee. Like, that's what we should do. But if we can read the gospels with those lenses, I think it really can help shift our congregational cultures toward toward a politics of love and care and justice.

Joshua Johnson: 20:15

You know, what I look at the nation states, the politics, I think of, I think of strife. And I think of power and Vi and jockeying for power. And I think of people trying to, to shield themselves so that they could stay comfortable where they are, and not move into something that is, that hurts, that is uncomfortable, because we see someone else suffering and other people suffering. And a lot of times, they don't move towards the flourishing of all people, they just want the flourishing of a few people so that they could stay comfortable. How could we help organize around a space where it gets people to say, I'm okay, to put aside my comfort for a little while to see the flourishing of someone else, or my community, or the people around me? To

Ross Kane: 21:10

me, it, it starts in really that second concentric circle, going back to the concentric circles, right? I mean, you know, that first circle of congregational love and care, and then that second circle where we are encountering neighbors in our congregation, now, cities and towns are different from each other, right? I mean, the church where I've worked in most of my vocation was, you know, fairly urban. So loving neighbors meant caring for people who just show up at the door and say, Look, I can't pay my utility bill, that's the start in a neighborhood like that. And if you're in a suburban area, where you don't have a lot of visitors, you know, coming by your church, and you know, you don't necessarily have neighbors seeking you out, then, you know, it's, it can be more important to step outside of your own neighborhood, because our neighborhoods are profoundly connected to one another. Right? And then I think that, you know, one way to frame the question is, you know, love my neighbor isn't only about loving the neighborhood residents of around your congregation, it's about loving anybody who is in that in who comes into that neighborhood. So you know, who are the people who come to work in your neighborhood, be it suburban, or urban or rural? Who can't actually afford to live there? What does it mean to love them? But to get back to? The, you know, the question you asked, to me, I think it's all it has to be based in encounter, it's a base, it has to be based in our encounters with people who are struggling and people who are suffering, because I think that's when our own affections get transformed, right. And one of the things that I think is really healthy about congregations is that if they have solid outreach in the community, it becomes a way of sustained encounter. It's not just the sort of encounter that happens here and there. But it's an encounter that you have over and over as a congregation, you know, whether it's through a feeding ministry or some other way, but it's this sustained engagement with the community, where we can see and share life with those people who are different from ourselves, those people who are suffering, those people that Jesus has called us to be with and to care for.

Joshua Johnson: 23:46

So if you're, you're outside of a place where there's a lot of, you know, people coming towards you saying, I can't can't pay my utility bill hill here. But then I have to then start to do some research to figure out where is the suffering in my neighborhood? Where's the suffering in my community? Where is the suffering in my city? How can we start to organize around seeing what we actually need to engage what we actually need to bring the love of God towards the the reign of God, the kingdom of God and a place to say, hey, it's operating here, God's kingdom. As for all of us, you step into it. There is some a new life and a life that can actually bring about this love and this interdependence within this suffering part of our community. How can we start to organize around a place where we say, Oh, this is the thing, this is the place of injustice that we need to stand with. But because I'm over here in my own little silo, I don't actually see it. I can we start to lift our eyes so we could see what we need to engage in as a community.

Ross Kane: 24:58

That's a great question. To me, it really starts with research in your neighborhood and in your community. So to me, I think, again, like it sort of works through a kind of ripple effect of it like these concentric circles, right? So, you know, in one congregation I served, let's goes back to the housing example. We didn't actually start by having some sort of major campaign that said, Oh, look, housing is expensive here. What are we? What can we do about it? It started with, you know, a couple of us who worked in this Emergency Assistance Ministry that our congregation had, noticing, day after day, week, after week, month, after month, year after year, the rotten bills that people needed help with, we're just getting higher and higher and higher. Well, like what do you do, then? I don't think you actually just jump straight into Okay. Clearly, we're supposed to advocate for housing affordability. I think actually, there's a, there's a step before that jump, where you research the issue, and you start to figure out as a congregation, what are some of the policy dynamics behind this? What what's what is the what are the demographics of this community, like work with other community organizations? Who have the data? Generally? I mean, it's not that hard to find, if you know where to look. I mean, you know, talk to your health department, I mean, talk about people who have great stats, about income level about, you know, all sorts of, you know, health and disease stats, which often align with, you know, income levels. You know, what are the pockets in your town or city that are especially suffering from poverty, you know, your health department's get to know a lot about that. If there's a community foundation in your town, or city, talk to folks in the community foundation, talk to folks in the nonprofit sector who work in these areas. And my experience, these folks are delighted to talk to congregations, because they're looking for allies to they often feel really alone in the work that they're doing. So take the time, do that research, then you have a sense of what your congregation can do and what your congregation can't do, again, on the housing affordability example. There are certain things that a city council can do, and the state where I live, and there's certain things that they cannot do. You know, housing affordability is it's a profoundly local issue. It's also an international issue, because you have international conglomerates, buying tracts of land and large cities and building huge buildings, and sometimes not even renting out all the units just so they can keep the prices high. Right. So it's also an international challenge. But, you know, the congregation can't solve that. But we need to know something about it so that we know oh, here's what our city council can do. And here's what our city council can't necessarily do. I think, can all final point here, I think, too, that congregations shouldn't try to solve everything, and that we should try to solve things that can fit with who we are as a congregation. You know, I've in another congregation I was with, we started a headstart classroom, in our, in our building, because we had a spare room in the church. And we, and that just fit with the DNA of the congregation. We had had a day school that was part of the congregation for over 50 years. And, you know, early childhood education is just something that we did. And we found in our city, that that that there was a gap, especially in certain demographics. And this was something we could do. You know, it was it was something that, that really fit within the kind of sense of calling that our congregation had. And I think that's really important, too. I mean, congregations can't do everything, but that doesn't mean we we shouldn't try to do something. Yeah. So you know, we should do the research, about what's going on. And then as a way of figuring out, where can we love our neighbors best in this community? And then we should love our neighbors in ways that, that sit with who we are as a congregation. Can

Joshua Johnson: 29:48

we get into some practicals of organizing a church community of what that looks like? You look at the early church, there's like hey, we have problems with widows and orphans. So we need to Set up. Some people that will be in charge of widows and orphans to help care for the vulnerable in our community. So they were able to organize a wet in a place where we have some people were focused on church planting or, you know, moving out the congregation into new spaces, we have some people that are, are caring for the widows and the orphans. How do we practically organize our churches, and in a way that we can be interdependent with one another? I think a lot of times when we have specific ministries within a church community, they're all jockeying for power, and for resources and finances, and not realizing how we all are interconnected, and that we need one another for it to be holistic, and, and whole. And it's not really just about your own little ministry over here. How can we organize? What does it look like practically? And what does it look like to keep interdependence? Well,

Ross Kane: 31:08

I'm going to sound like a broken record and saying that, you know, starts in the congregational politics, but I do think it actually starts in the simplest things in the congregation, in terms of how do we build that politics of interdependence, where it's not my ministry versus your ministry or anything like that? I mean, it starts in the really ordinary things like, how do you set up a church board meeting. And, you know, I mean, meetings are some of the most, you know, boring, but also fundamental parts of church ministry, and their political meetings are political. So how you set up the meeting, actually can have a really profound effect on whether people are jockeying for position or not. It's really common in my own denomination to organize meetings based on Robert's Rules, and it's very formal, and you know, all this sort of stuff. And it has a place like, I'm, I'm not anti Robert's Rules, by any stretch of the imagination. But there have been plenty of occasions and my own denomination, where people manipulate Robert's Rules, to divide people from one another, and to, you know, make us mimic the partisan politics. Rather than build interdependence. I mean, Robert's Rules was based out of, you know, rules for the Congress. And, you know, it was based on partisan politics, right. And, again, not to say we should never use them, but they shouldn't be the main tool in our workshop for, for having meetings. So, you know, when when you have a church board meeting, what would it look like to set up a meeting where the people who have different visions of, you know, whether it's outreach or something else, you know, have to actually listen to each other? And have to sit across from one another, and actually share with each other? What are the values that are informing why I care so much about this ministry? And how do those values sprang from my own sense of what the Spirit is telling me? I should be doing in the world. You know, it's so much of church politics is really about simple things like teamwork, and listening to one another. And, you know, then truly listening, being attentive, seeing how the spirit is really manifesting through this person that might just drive you crazy. And recognizing that. Yeah, we do still, we do still share something. So. So I think it actually starts there. In some of those, like internal church meetings, and you know, whether it's a board meeting or you know, in many congregations I've been in there's there's some kind of outreach committee and yeah, sometimes it's sort of like, yeah, how do I get the most of the pieces of pie that that the that are limited in this congregational budget? I think you just have to set the meeting up differently in a way that enables people to see one another. And that that's the beginning. And it's from there, that you then have the you know, again, difficult conversations about, look, the church budgets only so big, there are only so many things that we can support. But if you've built the interdependence on the front end Then those hard conversations about budgets are going to be a lot easier.

Joshua Johnson: 35:05

So, how do we see one another? How do we listen? Well, what does it look like to actually have grace for each other? And then how does that then impacts the way that we we live in the world, I

Ross Kane: 35:25

think that, again, starts with our interdependence, that we have to see how deeply interconnected our lives are with each other. One of the things that is hard about serving on a church board or, you know, I teach in a seminary now, so you know, being in a faculty meeting, is recognizing that, you know, the, this, this person that I disagree with, is, is actually a part of my own life, that my, my life is deeply interconnected with their life. You know, I talk early in the book about how the book was really influenced by me living in East Africa for a number of years, between college and seminary. And, you know, I quote, folks like Desmond Tutu in the book, who have a really profound understanding of how connected our lives are to each other. And it's, it's not a value that American Christianity holds as easily, as Christianity is in many other parts of the world, but it's just one of those areas where we can so learn from each other, that I mean, it's a spiritual practice, right? It's a spiritual practice to, you know, kind of keep watch over my own spirit, in situations of conflict, and, and, and have care and compassion for this other person that I really disagree with. But also to say that, like, look, my life's actually interconnected with theirs, because it's not just and I don't just mean that in a sort of ethereal sense. Like, if I've had a conflict with somebody in my congregation, that conflicts not just in, it didn't just happen as an event. The conflict is actually somehow like, in my own psyche, now, like, there, that person and this interaction we have is actually now a part of me, it's like, in my own mind, and spirit now. And so I actually am interconnected with him. I mean, I think if we really sit down and, you know, carry out those spiritual practices of self examination, we see that, you know, my, my enemies actually are and the things they've done to me have inflicted my spirits, and they are actually a part of me. So the negative part of that, of course, is that, you know, my spirit is hurting. The positive side of that is that my life is actually connected to that person. Now, my spirit is connected to that person now. And the Holy Spirit would ask me, with the gift of grace, to recognize our interdependence, and to forgive this other person, if they've harmed me. And that act of forgiveness is, again a recognition of our interdependence that that person has already become a part of my life. So don't try to ignore it. Just recognize that we're interdependent with them. And, and, and forgive and share love. I think that's where it starts is in that recognition that I am not. You know, as much as you know, growing up in the United States is tried to persuade me that I'm just you know, somebody who pulls myself up by my own bootstraps and carries on with life. That, that that's just one not how our minds and psychologies work, but to that's not what Jesus ever wanted for us. Jesus calls us to be branches in a vine that's interconnected with other people to use imagery and John, right.

Joshua Johnson: 39:40

So then what is the spirituality of of church politics here and how does our interconnectedness revolve around discipleship and formation towards embodying Jesus looking like him as a community?

Ross Kane: 39:55

Yeah, that's an it's another big theme of this book that politics is is actually a spiritual practice. And that can be kind of surprising, I think, because we often imagine politics is, you know, this area where we're, you know, fighting with each other and, you know, conflict and strife and, you know, spiritual practices, this place of serenity and calm and you know, us connecting with, with, with with with the spirit and growing closer to God. But, you know, the truth of the matter is that congregations have spiritualities, every community, in a sense, has a spirituality, has spiritual practice, we never live the spiritual life on our own, our spiritual life is always connected with others. And so it's more a matter of how can we recognize the spiritual aspects of our congregational life? And how can we shape a politics that nurtures the spirits of the spiritual life of our congregations. So there's that that kind of connection, like we never live the spiritual life on our own. And so in a certain sense, a spiritual life has to be political. And so again, it comes back to cultivating communal practices as a congregation that recognize that, you know, back to church meetings, every church meeting is a spiritual practice, whether we like it or not, but every church meeting is a spiritual practice. And how can we organize that church meeting in a way that builds our interdependence in a way that helps us see that our lives are interconnected with each other in profoundly spiritual ways? I mean, when you look at something like the civil rights movement in the United States, that was, we often see it as a political movement. That was a profoundly spiritual movement as well. I mean, in so many of the speeches of Martin King and so many others, you just see that spiritual life and political engagement are part of this singular, whole, it's not that the Holy Spirit is telling us, okay, you know, you go to your prayer closet and do your thing there. And then you go into, like, a political world. And that's a completely different realm. No, I mean, you know, you get that in, in, in the civil rights movement. And, and I think it's a, it's a profound example, for Christians today, of the potential and the power of recognizing the connection between our spiritual life and our politics. It's also an example of, I think, a counterexample, I should say, to a lot of politics today, where it feels like, you know, what we do in our prayer closet is something completely separate from what we do in public, that these are just rounds that don't even talk to each other. And that I just, I think that's a that's a real challenge that we're facing in our in our body politic today. But again, it's a challenge that we can start to respond to by really integrating the spiritual and, and and the political.

Joshua Johnson: 43:51

I think that's a good example. I think earlier the beginning, he talks about politics in these concentric circles and moving from the bottom up. A lot of times, we think that we want to, you know, just change whatever the top concentric circle is that behavior. You know, whenever I, I do some teaching around, even cross cultural work, it's actually about changing things from the inside out. And we can't just just say, Hey, your behavior is bad, change your behavior, are gonna go back to to that behavior. It's changing inside out. How I think the the civil rights movement was a really good example of grassroots bottom up making a significant impact and change in national politics. By starting with something that is is local, and some some of it was even just congregational of politics and saying, let's move to have the spirit move into the space. Is there another good example how we could actually take grassroots our Politics infused with the with the Spirit of God so that we could actually see justice take place at a national or even international level. How does that work?

Ross Kane: 45:15

Yeah, yeah. First, let me say one last thing about the civil rights movement that you touched on the how local it was, it's really easy for us to sort of think back at, you know, the March on Washington and all these things and, and see, okay, yeah, this was this big national thing. But the truth of the matter is that it was based in congregations, oftentimes, you know, and, and people are organizing in church basements, and people have been doing this work for often decades. And then it sort of gets this propulsion in the 50s and 60s, right. But people were doing this for a really long time. I mean, the two cities where I lived most of my life, Richmond, Virginia is where I grew up. And Alexandria, Virginia is where I live. Now, each had these examples of civil rights like activity that wasn't happening in the 50s and 60s, but was happening decades before. So in Richmond, there was a street car boycott, in the early 1900s, led by John Mitchell and Maggie Walker, and they were trying to get streetcars unsegregated. And so they and so there was a there was this big boycott. And it was all the sort of same things that you see in the Montgomery Bus Boycott years later. And Alexandria, our there was one library in our one public library in our city, and it was a whites only library. And for black men in the late 30s, early 40s staged a sit in in that library, these same techniques that you see come up decades later. But they had been honed and practiced. And sometimes they worked and sometimes they didn't. And Alexandra there was the sort of, quote unquote, compromise was let's build up wax only library, which is, which was a fraction of the size. And in Richmond, there was initial success, actually, with the street car boycott, but then it then things move backward with a new Virginia constitution that basically hardened Jim Crow laws. And you know, what, I think that reminds us is that that local action, when it seems like things might actually be getting worse, and that's what it looks like in Michigan, right. Could be planting seeds for something really profound that happens down the road. And we might not know that at the time. While there's no way we could know that it's time right. Other than in a kind of, you know, eschatological hopeful sense, but, but in terms of what we see around us, we won't know it at the time. But we can find that reassurance in the fact that we are planting seeds for things that can change down the road. Now, you know, to your other question, what does that look like today? You know, are there examples today of, you know, folks doing this kind of local action? You know, I've talked about housing a lot already. But, you know, I think that is a good example. You know, there's congregations all over the country that are, you know, re sitting there space to build affordable housing, you know, there's, there's a congregation just less than a mile from where I'm sitting right now that they were rebuilding their, their church, and they built somewhere on 150, affordable housing units on top of the church, when they rebuilt it, and, you know, things like that are sort of happening all over the country, it's not going to look the same everywhere. But, you know, these are, these are areas where, you know, ordinary small action just starts to build momentum. Right. And we are seeing more and more conversation international life about, about the housing crisis that we're in and, and, and, and how difficult it is, and what are the things that are propelling this crisis, and what can we do to respond when that conversation is completely different now than it was 10 years ago? And a lot of that is because of congregations, doing really creative and innovative things.

Joshua Johnson: 49:45

It's good. Well, Ross, if you had a hope for your readers here, good news of church politics, what would you hope that they would get out of this book? I hope that

Ross Kane: 49:54

they would read the book and reorganize. their own congregational politics and see a fresh, that simple Commandment Love your neighbor. And see that that is a profoundly political commandment. Because Jesus is asking us to love neighbors. He's asking us to love neighborhoods. He's asking us to love cities. And he's asking us to care for people who suffer. And finally, that they would see that politics is a spiritual practice. And then our own spiritual life is never just something that happens in the prayer closet, but something that involves the communities around us. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 50:41

that's really good. It's really good. I really enjoyed this book. And so I really want people to go out and get it and start to put things into into practice and organize well around, what does it look like to love God and love neighbor? And if we can do that, well, I think that our churches will, will start to look different, which is good, and but then our communities will start to look different. And because our communities start to look different than it just goes up. And then those concentric circles of impacts actually happen. And it does go from the bottom up. It is grassroots. That's really good. Ross, a couple questions I have at the end one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Ross Kane: 51:25

Oh, my goodness, that's a good question. Yeah, that 21 year old self was just finishing college, on his way to work in East Africa. I think I'd say after you have a really profound experience, which I did in East Africa, know that there could be spiritual, profound spiritual uncertainty on afterwards, and know that the Holy Spirit is with you, amid the highs and the lows of whatever your spiritual life and vocation look like. And that it, it, it does come together like strands that seem odd come together. I mean, the fact that like, I was working, you know, I was an international relations major in college. So I went and worked with churches in South Sudan. And then I came home and went to seminary and became a pastor. So I went from like, the most international to the most local. And that there was actually there's like, there was actually a deep synthesis there that the spirit was like, slowly building over time. But it wasn't without some, you know, difficulty and spiritual struggle on the way but the spirit was doing with the Spirit does, yeah. Bringing new life. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 52:42

good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend, you

Ross Kane: 52:47

know, there's a couple of books I'd recommend one that really brought me up short as an American. White American is a book by Mahmood Mamdani is his name. He's a political theorist, don't worry, it's, it's, it's not too nerdy. I mean, it's an accessible, let me put that differently. It's an accessible nerdy book. But it's called neither settler, nor native and other settler, non native. And it's a book that really helps me think differently about my place as a white American citizen, and you know, those who lived here in this country before I did and continue to live here. And and it's helped me recognize a fresh the healing. Another aspect of the healing that's needed in our country, our big jazz buff, so there's a great new biography of the great tenor saxophonist named Sonny Rollins that I would recommend. Aiden Levy, I think is the author of though it's a great book. And this this final one, this is a this is a good book. Also a little nerdy but worth it. The spine ethicist named Karen Guth, in the book is called the ethics of tainted legacies, the ethics of tainted legacies, it's about it's a book that responds to the ways that institutions and you know, including congregations have had to reassess our history. You know, especially after, you know, racial recognitions of the last few years, you know, I work in a seminary that was built with slave labor. And, you know, buildings are, are named after the first the founding Bishop of the church who was a proponent of slavery, you know, but who also funded our school, right? That's a tainted lead. I see. And what Karen Guth does in that book that I found so helpful is that she shows. So this is not a new problem in Christian tradition. And we have lots of resources from our past that we can draw from. So for congregations and institutions that are going through this conversations, that's a terrific book I'd really recommend.

Joshua Johnson: 55:23

Those are great recommendations. And another one, how can people go out and get your book? Good News of church politics? And where would you like to point people to? How can people connect with you?

Ross Kane: 55:36

Yeah, the books available at Amazon and at bookshop, those are the I think, probably the best places to pick it up. You can check out my website, Ross kane.com, which has recent publications and things like that. And I've just launching a podcast called Love your neighbor. So check out that podcast, it'll be out just in the next couple of months. Right? Encourage you to give it a listen. All

Joshua Johnson: 56:04

right, so go out, listen to the podcasts, love your neighbor, God get the book, Good News of church politics, and check out Ross game.com With all those resources that he has. So Ross, thank you for this conversation. Thank You that we can actually see that there is some good news in church politics. And it's not just tongue in cheek. But there is the way that we organize ourselves could actually really have a profound impact in the way that we love our neighbors and love one another and so that we could actually then see something incredibly fruitful happened. And we could see, like spirit life happened within communities that we could, we could start to even make a dent in the housing crisis that we have right now or in racism, things that are justice issues for us in our day and age, and that even those small seeds can make a big difference. Long term when we organize ourselves around love of neighbor and love of God. So thank you so much for this conversation.

Ross Kane: 57:08

It's been a real pleasure to be here. Thanks a lot.