Ep. 200 Rich Villodas - The Narrow Path

In this conversation, Rich Villodas and I focus on Jesus' teachings in the Sermon on the Mount and what it means to follow the narrow path. We discuss how the Sermon on the Mount helps navigate cultural diversity, the differences between the narrow path and broad way of living, Jesus' teachings on topics like the Beatitudes, money, anxiety, and individualism vs communal life. We also talk about issues like peacemaking, witnessing one's faith, cultivating presence, and navigating spiritual forces that draw us away from God's kingdom. Throughout, Rich emphasizes how following Christ's difficult teachings can lead to a spacious life through connection with God. Join us as we learn how to follow the narrow path.

Rich Villodas is the Brooklyn-born lead pastor of New Life Fellowship, a large, multiracial church with more than seventy-five countries represented in Elmhurst, Queens. Rich graduated with a BA in pastoral ministry and theology from Nyack College. He went on to complete his Master of Divinity from Alliance Theological Seminary. Rich is the author of 3 books, the award winning The Deeply Formed Life, Good and Beautiful and Kind and his most recent The Narrow Path. He and his wife, Rosie, have two beautiful children and reside in Long Island, NY.

Rich's Book:
The Narrow Path

Rich's Recommendations:
Gilead
Reading Genesis
Godzilla Minus One

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Transcript

Rich Villodas: 0:00

What feels unrealistic with humans is possible with God. I really believe that following Jesus is the way to a spacious life. And I would want my readers to take his promises serious that if you build your life on him and his teachings, there's a strong foundation that awaits you. There's a spaciousness to your soul that awaits you. There is a quality of life and, and connection with God that's available to you. And, but it's, it's not going to come easy. And but I think anything that we've done in our lives, that has been of meaning hasn't come easy. It's been something that we've actually had to wrestle with. But in that wrestling, we get to that place, and it's so much more meaningful than somebody that didn't cost us anything.

Joshua Johnson: 1:09

Hello, and welcome to the shifting culture podcasts in which we have conversations about the culture we create, and the impact we can make. We longed to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson, our show is powered by you, the listener, if you want to support the work that we do get early access to episodes, Episode guides and more. Go to patreon.com/shifting culture to become a monthly patron so that we can continue in this important work. And don't forget to hit the Follow button on your favorite podcast app to be notified when new episodes come out each week. And go leave a rating and review. It's easy. It only takes a second and it helps us find new listeners to the show. Just go to the Show page on the app that you're using right now and hit five stars. It really is that easy. Thank you so much. You know what else would help us out? share this podcast with your friends, your family, your network? Tell them how much you enjoy it and let them know that they should be listening as well. If you're new here, welcome. If you want to dig deeper find us on social media at shifting culture podcast, where I post video clips and quotes and interact with all of you. Previous guests on the show have included Terry Crist Sharon hottie Miller Andrew Young, you go back listen to those amazing episodes and more. But today's guest is rich FLOTUS rich FLOTUS is the Brooklyn born lead pastor of New Life Fellowship a large multiracial church, with more than 75 countries represented in Elmhurst, Queens. Rich graduated with a BA in pastoral ministry and theology from Nyack College. He went on to complete his master of divinity from Alliance Theological Seminary. Rich is the author of three books, the award winning the deeply formed life good and beautiful and kind and his most recent, the narrow path, he and his wife Rosie have two beautiful children and reside in Long Island, New York. In this conversation, rich FLOTUS and I focus on Jesus's teachings in the Sermon on the Mount and what it means to follow the narrow path. We discuss how the Sermon on the Mount helps navigate cultural diversity, the differences between the narrow path and the Broad way of living Jesus's teachings on topics like the Beatitudes, money, anxiety and individualism versus communal life. We also talked about issues like peacemaking witnessing one's faith, cultivating presence and navigating spiritual forces that draws away from God's Kingdom throughout which emphasizes how following Christ's difficult teachings can lead to a spacious life through connection with God. Join us as we learn how to follow the narrow path. Here is my conversation with rich FLOTUS. Rich Welcome to shifting culture excited to have you on thank you so much for joining me it

Rich Villodas: 3:48

Joshua, thanks so much for the kind invitation with where to have the conversation with you. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 3:53

it's going to be a great conversation I know already. We're going to talk a bit about your new book, The narrow path, the Sermon on the Mount. And so as an introduction to you, for listeners, how has the Sermon on the Mount helped you navigate like your cultural diversity of your church? The diversity of perspective in cultures, as the Sermon on the Mount helps in that situation? Where are you and what are you doing?

Rich Villodas: 4:20

Yeah, you know, the Sermon on the Mount. I mean, I regarded as the most important set of teachings as it relates to being faithful to Jesus. It's the Manifesto of the kingdom of God. And as I think about my own context, I mean, in many respects, the Sermon on the Mount universalize is the human experience the human story. I pastor a church where there are folks from over 75 nations represented incredible diversity on all fronts, racially, culturally, generationally, socio economically. And so the Sermon on the Mount has a way of really getting to the heart of every single human being no matter where in this world they're coming from. And I think that's in many ways how the Sermon on the Mount has challenged and comforted me. And in the same respect, I think challenged and comforted our congregation. It's, you know, when you start when you pray the Lord's Prayer when you address anger, when you address desires and loss when you address matters of our words, yes, being yes and no being No. Jesus is really getting at every human being throughout every generation. And I think that's how it's impacted my life and the way I pastor a church, in the midst

Joshua Johnson: 5:40

of a different ideologies within your own congregation and people, especially in the city that you live in different political views different, like views on everything. How how do you navigate something where it doesn't devolve into culture worse, but it talks about a this is what Jesus is saying about our culture here and now, and not just back then it actually has something to say about what we're going through now. Yeah,

Rich Villodas: 6:13

a ball. I mean, with that still happening in my church, Josh, I want I don't want to know what I come up here and say, listen, listen, one heaven on earth, come to Queens or no sin, no problems, no struggles, we're doing just fine. I think that temptation is in every community, and ours is no different. You know, when I, I think the challenge of our day is that Christianity very easily, can be weaponized in such a way, we that's where the cultural warring often emerges, that we want Christianity and the tenants of our faith to be represented in every public space. I mean, there's a conversation going on right now about the 10 commandments in Louisiana. And so I think that the danger is, when Christianity as a symbol of Christianity as an I, G, and Christianity, as even a set of teachings, becomes the thing that we want to now wield against the world. I mean, that's when the cultural warring takes place, where it's not emerging from a deep life, communion with God in Christ, which cultivates humility, and love and compassion and mercy. And so, I think the Sermon on the Mount, you know, Jesus refuses to let us off the hook in the Sermon on the Mount. He, he he confronts or names, the ways that especially in that culture, and the ways that that sense, sensibility tends to be reflected in every generation is very easy to address. The law for you know, you've heard it said, but I've heard about I've said unto you, it's very easy to address particular tenants of faith from a very superficial perspective. And she's saying, I'm not going to let you do that, we're going to get to the intended meaning of what all of this is pointing to. And so, yeah, I mean, pastoring, throughout these divisions in our society, the fragmentation of our world. I mean, I think the sermon Sermon on the Mount again, universalize is the human experience as well as gets beneath the surface, where I think the cultural warring often does not, because there's the level of symbol and ideology.

Joshua Johnson: 8:23

Right? So if you're, you're talking to people right now, about the narrow path. When I hear a narrow path, I hear constriction, limitations, I can't do you know what I want to do? You know, I can't do me, right. And then opposite, the broad path feels like open and spacious. And like, there's the lure of the good life in the broad path, the Broadway is pretty strong. Why do you think that this narrow path actually leads to a spacious life when this broad path actually leads to more constricted constriction in our own life and like turning inside of ourselves?

Rich Villodas: 9:10

Yeah, you know, the way I contrast the narrow kind of path, and the broad way, is really through, on one side, the teachings of Jesus in the kingdom of God. And on the other side, the larger kind of worldly ways of thinking about what makes for a good life. And I think Jesus comes on the scene, and does not mince words, letting us know that if you really want a good life, it's going to look very different from the prevailing notions of what success and what value looks like in our world. And so when Jesus comes, he comes his teachings are a means of confronting the worldly system that's dominated by money that's dominated by power that's dominated by the trying to influence for the sake of being over and against others. And so the narrow path, I mean, the I put narrow for a particular reason because at the end of the sermon of the Mount, Jesus says enter the narrow gate, the narrow road is what leads to life. And it's usually that's usually interpreted as the number of people that are going to end up in heaven is really narrow. And the number of people that's going to be someplace out is very broad. And I think what Jesus is more saying there is that the way of the kingdom of God is narrow. That is, it can seem very constricting and, and in many ways, it's constricting to our false selves. It's constricting to the ways that the world defines success. But as we get inside of it, there's a spaciousness you know, Josh, right, I opened the book by talking about Harry Potter as a metaphor to one of my, I mean, I've listened I've read up I've watched the movies and all that stuff, there's so depending on who you talk to, that's a very offensive thing to say these days on every side of the spectrum there to give shot the Harry Potter. But, you know, there's this image in the Goblet of Fire where Harry's with this, you know, the Weasley family, and they're about to go into this small tent that looks like a backyard tent. But it's been charmed. So that when you go through this narrow entryway on the inside, it's like this apartment, it's very large on the inside. And I think the grace of God, the way I the language I'm using is has charmed you really what the kingdom of God is on the on the outside, it looks narrow, constricting, and it is narrow and constricting for the ways that the world is ordered by but when you get in, I think there's a spaciousness to our soul that Jesus is really hoping that we really say yes to so it is it is narrow. That's the truth. I'm not denying that, hey, don't worry about it. It is it can feel constricting, but there is life that God has. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 12:01

there's a lot of life in it. So if you look at the the culture around us, you you talk about the Broadway and you talk about moralism, successes and individualism, broadly of what what our culture views as the good life. So what is that? What is the predominant cultural worldview at the moment?

Rich Villodas: 12:26

Well, around those, I mean, what what I'm doing there with the sermon on the mount is I'm trying to take a 30,000 foot perspective as to what are the the areas that Jesus is critiquing? And then inviting us into. And so for me, I do regard that as a kind of which a first of all of a moralism. And by that I mean, I know moralism has been used in many different ways, the way I'm looking at it is that there can be such a fixation on the externals, without examination of the interior. And Jesus on a number of occasions that the sermon on the mount is naming this human problem, but especially a religious problem. But I think it's expand to the world around us that we can be so focused on the superficial stuff of life, and Jesus says, I refuse to have you live there. There's a deeper world within you, that I'm calling you to attend to. And I think so much of the world is oriented around, avoidance of self. It's very fascinating. I mean, we can talk about all we want about, you know, the mental health crisis in our world, which is very real, not a lot of people are actually taking a journey inward. And I think Jesus is hoping that our lives would have an element of examination to them. I also talk about, you know, the individualism, and by that I am, it's very easy. And it sounds so cliche. So when I was writing, and I was just like, This sounds so on the nose, and so cliche, this doesn't sound original whatsoever. And it's not, that we can very easily separate love of God from love of neighbor. And, and because of course we can, but it happens so insidiously. That next you know, we're talking about God and then we're avoiding matters of justice. We're avoiding matters of compassion. We're avoiding matters of people who are in deep need. And so that individualism tends to show up on a regular basis as well. And so whether it's about moralism, whether it's almost success, ism, success, ism is the other language. The other term I use of what the good life is marked by. And in a fascinating way, when Jesus begins the Sermon on the Mount, he begins with blessings Beatitudes, reminding us that, the way that we think about what a good life is It looks pretty different to Jesus. And so it's a very challenging way of thinking about what a good life is what success is. And to what degree Am I pursuing that as opposed to pursuing what Jesus is inviting me into and following him in the kingdom of God? So

Joshua Johnson: 15:18

how should we view and see the Beatitudes? If he's talking about the the good life? And is it? Is it just a list of things that we have to do and strive in our own effort? Is it something that Jesus is blessing us with? What is the what are the Beatitudes for us?

Rich Villodas: 15:34

I do think there's two ways of thinking about it. I think one is Jesus is, in many ways, turning things upside down and letting us know that, who the world regards as unfortunate. God often regards as blessed. And so those who mourn those who are poor in spirit, those who are meek, those are not categories that the world regards as like, a good life and life to be emulated. It's like no, no, I want to get away from poverty. I want to get away from mourning, I want to be happy. I don't want meekness sounds like being passive. I want to I want to take the bull by the horn here. And I think so in one respect, I respect Jesus is flipping it to let us know, the ways we think about who God blesses is various, entirely different category, the way that God sees it, but secondly, I do see it as a road to journey on that. What does it look like for us to make space for mourning, and limit, you know, so much of our spirituality, so much of our world around us, is, cheapen because of our inability to name our grief before God. You know, Jesus calls the peace, keep peacemakers, those who are blessed. It's very easy to live very passively, and not wanting to rock the boat. And Jesus is saying, no, no, no, the people who are truly blessed are the people who refuse to say yes to a false peace. And so in one way, it's it's it's a categorically different way of seeing the world. But also I see it as in the context of like, ethics as well. God calls us to journey on a different road together.

Joshua Johnson: 17:24

Yeah. You know, I was listening the other day, I really like Elvis Costello song was so funny about peace, love and understanding. And those listen to that song. And my wife was like, Why in the world do people get so caught up? Like, why don't we have peace, or love or understanding? Mike? It's easy, isn't it? I was like, No, that way is hard. It's difficult. So if you just contrasted peacekeeping, which seems easy, right? You're keeping peace to peacemaking. Oh, that's a costly thing. How is how much does it cost us to be peacemakers and world's

Rich Villodas: 18:02

aid because, you know, here, it costs our lives. I mean, if you read the 10 commandment of the read the Sermon on the Mount, and the Beatitudes, Jesus goes right into peacemakers. And then he starts soon after starts talking about Blessed are those who are persecuted. And so I think make no mistake about it, to to name the ways that sin takes root in our world, individually interpersonally. And especially institutionally to name those areas, is a invitation for pain for misunderstanding for being potentially marginalized. And for not for various reasons, because lots of people see the world very differently, and and how one person understands what a good world looks like, might differ from someone else. And so we're fraught with all kinds of complexity here. But make no mistake about it to be a peacekeeper, or peacemaker, rather, is to go down the road of pain, which is why again, it's narrow. And not many people choose choose that, including Christians. And so if there's a cost, and we'll certainly,

Joshua Johnson: 19:27

if I could jump into moralism, and how the Sermon on the Mount really helps us deal with with the moralism you're talking about. Even just take right now, the 10 commandments in Louisiana. Yeah. And so what's the difference this this outward look like foreseen like, these are the moral tenants that we've just need to abide by, into looking inward of what Jesus is calling us to like what is the actual heart motivation behind what we're doing? And I mean, cheese Just in every single one of the things he's talking about, he takes it further than the the outward expression. Yeah,

Rich Villodas: 20:06

well, well, I will just say I'm usually very skeptical, and a in in many contexts where Christianity is used in a way to defer the centralize its presence in our culture. In many respects, this sounds very constantijn. To me, it sounds very, let's make sure that the world becomes Christian again. And in many respects, I want Gee, there's a difference between Jesus Christ ruling and Rainey and his followers seeking to create a kind of Christian culture that drowns the voices out of everyone else. And so I often wonder, is it a Christian thing, to subject people to some tenets, some value, some belief systems that are now not marked by invitation, but by coercion, not marked by invitation, but by institutionalizing something. And I think that the challenge is when Mark to loose wrote a book called God in public, and he wrote about nickel iconic faith and iconic faith is when religious language is leveraged for political purposes. And I think that's where we're really getting into trouble. Because when religious language is used for political purposes, we are doing in many respects, everything Jesus says he does, he's not calling us to do in the Sermon on the Mount. And so you have heard it said, But I say unto you, you have heard it said that the 10 commandments are good. And this is my riff on it here. But I tell you, that if you're not living the commandments, what difference does it make if it's put publicly anyway, it now becomes a symbol. And then here's the challenge, the symbol in the in the human hearts of people who are oriented by a particular vision, then leads to exclusion, hypocrisy, duplicity, I mean, everything that I guess ends with the letter, why is it we're going to now lead into some significant troubles here? Because it's no longer about really living a different life. It's about now, how can we utilize, and in many ways, weaponize the symbols of our faith to get everyone else to bow and I think that's in many respects inconsistent with Jesus. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 22:26

So he talks about being a witness in the Sermon on the Mount. So then how should we live in the world? As a witness what what is the call of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount to live in the world?

Rich Villodas: 22:38

You know, it's, well, what I love about that witness pieces. First of all, he's talking to people who have not done anything yet. And he calls them salt at my I mean, I just, I mean, I think about that on a regular basis. He's like, you're the salt of the world, you're the light of the world. I mean, these guys have not healed anyone they haven't preached yet. They haven't been sent out Jesus, I just love that. But you know, to be salt in the world in light, I think in many ways, Jesus is starting there. And then he's letting us know throughout the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, what salt and light looks like, you know what salt and light looks like sunlight looks like that we don't carry rage and antagonisms towards others. Salt and Light looks like fidelity to someone and not being driven by our lustful appetite. So in light looks like that we're true to our word, that we say yes. When we mean yes. And we say no, when we mean No, sunlight looks like a life mark by prayer. Specifically, in that context, Jesus says that, that we are to show fourth our good deeds, so that the, you know, the Father is glorified. So I think in many ways, sunlight looks like us being intentionally outward focused, seeking to love our neighbors in the everydayness of life. And then the very big realities of life as well. And that's going to look different from person to person. But I do think it is this kind of outward, generous, kind, compassionate, loving presence, that the Sermon on the Mount describes throughout the rest of, you know, the two to three chapters. I

Joshua Johnson: 24:14

was just thinking about the call to love our neighbors, a lot of people go, I'm going to love with with certain conditions. I'm going to love like, you know, if they're lovable, I will love them like it is a conditional type of love. Yes. And, man. So that's a that's a hard balance. Because, you know, God calls us to something. He calls us to the narrow path and like life in the kingdom, and you know, it's hard, but not everybody is on that journey right now. Not everybody is on that path. Yeah. So when people are on the broad path, the Broadway, as you say, and they're they said, I have been invited into this, but I don't want it yet. What does it look like to love our neighbor, when there are differences, and they may not even want to, like be invited into the way of Jesus right now, how do we love people without our agendas? Yeah,

Rich Villodas: 25:12

you know, so much of what Jesus models for us in the New Testament is oriented around invitation, not imposition. And, you know, if anyone would follow me, you know, that's Matthew chapter 16. There's this tons of invitation. And I think, for those of us who have family members, for those of us who have neighbors, for those of us who have friends, that are not really interested in following Jesus, I think the best option we have is, number one, to live a life that's so anchored in Jesus, that the fruit of the Spirit is emerging from our lives, that there's something qualitatively different about the way we live in the world. And especially, I think, what makes Christians distinct? Joshua, I think more than anything is not just the teachings, but the capacity we have to the Holy Spirit, and God help us in this, to love people that are very difficult to love to love our enemies. I think that is, in many ways, what distinguishes, because there are a lot of people who are not following Jesus. They're just good people. They are, they're kinder, I know plenty of people who are not Christians that are kinder than Christians, more generous than Christians are. more honest, and Christians, you know what I mean? So, so Christians don't have a monopoly on monopoly on morality. Let's just say that. I would also say, though, that what Christians do have is the presence of the Holy Spirit, that gives us the ability to love our enemies and love those who might not see the world in the way that we do. And I think that is probably our best witness. Moreover, I do think, the constant invitation that and you know, and, you know, it's something I've posted in some place, that Christians are no good at making friends, because friendship is not the goal. It's usually like transactional? And I do think, what would it look like for us to trust God, with the life of someone in this age and the age to come, and at the same time, seek to befriend them in a way where friendship is the end. And that doesn't mean I'm not looking for opportunities to preach good news and find spaces where you know what Jesus has something to say about that. But I think imitation and invitation Imitation of Christ and invitation, I think, are really what what should mark the posture of our hearts, especially as we're in conversation with people who don't want to follow the Jesus way?

Joshua Johnson: 27:53

I think one of the the more difficult things, especially with when it comes to our culture, I mean, the culture of the world, the world works, and revolves around money. And money is, you know, something that we're, we're attending to, we want to survive, to live to, to do some things. And then sometimes we just get caught up in like, I just need more money. And that's the thing that's driving me and Jesus. I mean, one of the things he talks about more than anything else is, is money. What is that the kingdom life that revolves around money? Is how do we navigate our our money issues? Well,

Rich Villodas: 28:37

I mean, this is fresh in my mind, because we're going through a four week series at this time of this recording in our church on money. And I think the way we navigate it first and foremost, is to correctly categorize money. It's very interesting to look at that passage. In Timothy, it says the love of money is the root of all evil. And I think that passage, it's scripture, of course, is there. But I think it tells all just one side of the story, I don't think it tells the full picture. Because the way Jesus talks about money in the Sermon on the Mount, is he does not talk about it as money being a neutral tool. But as a rival God, a rival master, and so much. So where there's only this is the only place I mean, I'm happy to continue to jog my memory but in the Scriptures where Jesus says something like you can't serve to blank you can't serve two masters. And the only context that he names that in is regarding to Mammon to money. And so there's something about money that Jesus says, This is not some neutral tool in some ways. It's like the ring and Lord of the Rings. You know, I think about I think about Gandalf. You know, one of the one of the scenes in The Lord of the Rings that just think is the Fellowship of the Ring where he's in billables house so Er is whatever you call those things there. And the ring is pulling out to him. Gandalf is like this holy, you know, man of God, you know, and, and he's like, it's beckoning him. And I think the there is something within our hearts, and then that can use a power outside of ourselves. And I think Jesus is trying to help us see, be careful around this thing. Be mindful, it will seek to swallow you and absorb you into its orbit. And so I think, number one, that is the first place to begin around that. And then, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus goes from money to anxiety very seamlessly. And I think, beyond just being a rival God, I think, then he's trying to in the Sermon on the Mount, help us see the Father for who the father really is, as one who is generous and can take care of us. And so the invitation to dealing with money is not simply be watch out. It's also do you short of who God is, is? Or do you have an image of God in your mind, that's actually entrenching you deeper into the pool of money?

Joshua Johnson: 31:17

I think that's really helpful. I could see just in so many different ways that money just pulls us into a life full of anxiety. If we let that rule us, it is a life full of anxiety. There's also a lot of other anxieties. And we're an anxious people at the moment, we have more knowledge and understanding about, about trauma, about, you know, depression, mental health issues than ever before. And we talk about it, even then, where the we struggle with it the most. Is there a way to be attentive to what we're going through? But then also, like, walk through it, maybe give it back to God? I don't, how do we not just stay in the attention of it, but then move it move through the attention to the other side of it?

Rich Villodas: 32:19

Yeah, you know, addressing anxiety, I mean, the one of the frameworks that has been really helpful to me, I learned this while in seminary, it was developed by a professor named Craig Ellison, who's passed away. And I believe it was developed by him, but or it may be he popularized it for me, but it was like this bio, psycho social spiritual framework of addressing mental health, addressing anxiety. And I think it is the integration of those four different arenas that really helps us move into wholeness, I think that what often happens is, there is on one side of the spectrum from kind of maybe a non religious, secular perspective, and emphasis on the the bio, the psycho, the social, and then on one side of the Christian experience is often really the spiritual. And the other stuff is me, I can get around to it, that's fine. And I do think, addressing anxiety, addressing any aspect of mental health, for that matter, requires all four of those things to work together. So you know, our biology, our our, the way we are being socialized, our own, you know, interiority, our own mental health, but also our spiritual lives and in what Jesus does in the Sermon on the Mount, is he begins to address anxiety by going to the spiritual first now, of course, I think we need every everything we can get our hands on to help us move towards wholeness, I think happens to Joshua. And I'm curious what you think about this, it seems in many respects, that there has been a pendulum swing, where it can be, we can be very close to emphasizing the bio, the psycho, the social. And then the spiritual thing is like, kind of over here. What Jesus does is he begins with like, your view of God will either contribute to your anxiety or help you begin to minimize it. And I think that's an area where we often don't go I'm curious, what do you think about that? I'm curious, like the use the geeky pendulum swinging there. I know you're interviewing me, but I'm just curious. I

Joshua Johnson: 34:43

see pendulum swings everywhere. Like that. We don't know how to get to center like where like, all we're doing is reacting to something and going the totally opposite direction. And we actually just need smaller course corrections in our life and our turn is what we're doing. And so pendulum swings really are not helpful, because we're going to have to, of course, correct back. I mean, I think we're even in the same thing, I, I'm just going to take it into the church, I don't think we've finished the Reformation, I don't think where you are good at the priesthood of all believers, we still have, you know, solo heroic leaders at the top that are and everybody else our consumers, right, this consumeristic type of mindset of walking in our faith. But even when it comes to mental health, I think the pendulum swing is, oh, we haven't been aware of what was going on in those spaces. And so we've had to actually probably go a little bit further into the the space of, you know, our, our biology, our social constructs, and how that has helped us and shaped us, so that then we can then be more attentive to what God is doing for us. But I think you're right in the place of our our view of who God is, is going to help us live into a new reality. The way that we know how to change our minds that that metanoia process that have our paradigm shifts, our mind blown is so crucial, and important, especially when it comes to our identity. We've got down

Rich Villodas: 36:26

with you 100%. On that that's really well said, what was the language just use that I liked that it was lessening the swings? Yes.

Joshua Johnson: 36:35

I think it's, it's more of a of course, correction than pendulums. Should.

Rich Villodas: 36:40

Now Yeah, thank you.

Joshua Johnson: 36:41

Yeah. I mean, we we definitely need that, you know, thinking, I want to go into just just for fun because I, I'm a basketball guy, I coached basketball, I coached college basketball for a while. And so I was, and I know you're a basketball guy, you like to play basketball a lot. How is that informs your view of the difference between individualism and the communal life with God, I think a good quality basketball team knows how to work together. And if people are more about themselves, and about the, you know, the the stats that they can get, yeah, team starts to fall apart and disintegrates. How has basketball shaped your view of individualism and communal life?

Rich Villodas: 37:28

Yeah, I think sports in general has done that for me. I, growing up, my father had me and all kinds of sports. And so I was maybe seven when I first joined my first little league team baseball. And the sad thing is, I was not good at baseball. And it took a while before I got good at basketball. But I played a lot for sure. You know, this is fresh in my mind. Also, because I lead a men's retreat. As the time of this recording last weekend with about 75 of our men and a number of us played basketball together. They just found it very interesting. We were talking very deeply before that basketball session around, support, around encourage, around belonging to something bigger than ourselves. And, and then we got into court, elbows were thrown for sure. And very competitive. But I think what we did find, especially with the teams was embodying that literally embodying in our voices in our, in our embraces, and our, in our, you know, high fives and all that. We need you. You're doing great encouragement. And I think so much of because my life has been oriented about around sports since I was seven. So much of the team emphasis, the encouragement, the support, I do see that as a really helpful, you know, analogy to think about the spiritual life as well, that we are are part of this team that Jesus has called us to. Boy, we need one another. And and so I think it's in some ways, in other ways. I'll tell you this though, Joshua, because I've been a New York Mets fan, a Jets fan and the Knicks fan, the Knicks are doing really well right now. But I've what I've learned about God is suffering. That's what I've learned. To cross that's what I really learned.

Joshua Johnson: 39:28

That's true. I grew up in Seattle. It's pretty similar in Seattle sports teams. I mean, we've had a couple of championships you know Sonics but they moved away? Yeah, brain. Yeah, like I don't know who to root for and the NBA anymore. Sonics moved away. We got you know, the mariners have never been to the World Series. I guess it's rough out there. But you know, it's it's all right. We could suffer through

Rich Villodas: 39:50

it. Yeah, yeah. So you're learning about Jesus for sure. Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 39:53

I'm in Kansas City now. So I got the chiefs. Oh, you're doing all right. Despite Great. You know, one of the things you've said over and over again, in this conversation, especially in the Sermon on the Mount is one, it's a tension into our interior life of looking to say, we need to give attention to some some different things, and then move into we need to actually be attentive to God. So what is the attentive life? How do we become people of attention?

Rich Villodas: 40:26

Well, I think one, it begins with a recognition that the world that we're in, is can, continuously pulling us into an orbit of distraction. You know, sociologists say we live in this constant state of partial attention, constant state of partial attention, where our, our full selves are not in a particular place at any given time. It'd be geographically, you know, approximate to someone. And, and be somewhere else. I think that's the nature. I think the nature of technology, especially something like social media is a tries. it deceives us into thinking that we can live with the three main attributes of God, that classic attributes of God of being omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, that we can be omni present everywhere at the same time, but not really present in one place. And, and so I think it begins there, like, your soul is consistently being pulled to be not here. I think what has helped me along those lines, though, is contemplative prayer, I think contemplative prayer. And I do it very imperfectly. I've been doing contemplative prayer for the last, you know, 20 years. And to have a space where I'm setting my timer for two minutes, five minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes. And just saying, Lord, here, am I? Or am I, you know, what neurologists and neuroscientists are discovering is that there is something about silence and contemplative prayer, and meditation, that is rewiring our brains a bit, and helping us not just with our kind of emotional health, but enabling us to be more present. And so the way I think I've thought about presidents is more so around being with God, but being with God for the sake of being with others, I'll often pray after my time in silence. It's like, Lord May, May, May love you and be present to you with my heart, soul, mind and strength. And may I love and be present to my neighbor, beginning with my first neighbors, that is my wife and my kids. And you know, starting there and, and yet, I think there's a power and principality called technology that seeks to absorb us into its orbit. And but those are just, I think contemplative prayers has been my go to approach to trying to cultivate a greater sense of presence in the world.

Joshua Johnson: 43:12

What do you say about powers and principalities and the draw into what the powers and principalities have for us? Yeah. And seeking that instead of seeking, you know, the, the narrow path?

Rich Villodas: 43:29

Yeah, well, I think I mean, in my, my second book, good and beautiful and kind, I wrote an entire chapter on powers and principalities. And, you know, out of Ephesians six, Paul says, we don't wrestle a wrestle against flesh and blood, but against powers, principalities, the way that I've tried to think about principalities is that principalities are these nefarious forces that get connected to individuals, ideologies and institutions with a three fold purpose, and that threefold purpose is deception. depersonalization and division, the evil one, you know, Satan is known as the father of lies, the powers and principalities do the bidding of the evil one. And so deception is their depersonalization. And I think social media, for example, the reason why there's you ever noticed people would, wouldn't say 95% of the stuff they see on social media to someone if they were in the same room. And they think there's something about technology, social media, that the personalizes people, and we just see an avatar, we don't see their story. We don't see their family, we don't see their history. This is why people are able to nations are able to bomb other countries with with impunity, because we don't really see them over there. And so We don't know them. So they're depersonalized. They're just things, and then division. And so I think that the narrow path. Jesus is not addressing per se powers and principalities within those three chapters. But throughout, I mean, Jesus is consistently confronting the power of the evil one, and the powers and principalities would seek to have us live, anger, lust, ways that are inconsistent with the kingdom of God.

Joshua Johnson: 45:35

I think it's pretty easy for us to to rationalize the Sermon on the Mount, as just, you know, steps to take and things to do, without realizing, like the forces, the the powers and principalities are actually drawing us away from that. Yes. And I think a lot of Western, especially Western Christians, forget about the this the spiritual world, they think about having they think about, you know, Earth, and what they could see and observe, and but the actual spiritual worlds almost non existent for them. But knowing that there is this pole, within powers and principalities, how does that help us navigate? How we could start to enter into the narrow path? Well,

Rich Villodas: 46:23

I just think, you know, in Ephesians, six, Paul, lets us know right there, it's almost like your true enemy, is not the person whose flesh and blood before you that there's something else that's animating the animosity, the Animus, the antagonisms. So I think, number one, it starts with a recognition that the people that are flesh and blood, are, beloved of God, and, and are called to be treated with dignity. I think that is, in many respects, how the Beatitudes begin as well, you know, those who are poor in spirit, those who are mourn. These are the people who God highly esteemed, and will one day those are the folks who are going to inherit the kingdom of God. And so I think it begins with at a at a baseline, knowing that the person we see is not truly are the enemy, we should be concerned are concerned about. There's something beyond that. Now, I don't want to be naive here and talk about and not, you know, clear boundaries, and there are people who are looking to hurt other people. But I think, from a posture motivation, so very practically, you know, when my wife and I, every month, we have a finance meeting, where we're talking about money and our plans, and whose birthday is this month, and who do you have to get buy a gift for? And oh, no, we got to pay for this year. And why? Why is the electric bill so high? I mean, we go to once a month a meeting. And there have been times when, within three minutes of the conversation, we're going at it with each. And there have been times where we had to step back and say, Honey, you're not the enemy. In there. Satan would love to sow discord in this moment, as we're talking about a rival God money, not just a neutral tool, but a rival God. And so I think having even that, that, you know, this is why CS Lewis in The Screwtape Letters, has been so important for many generations of Christians, because he is in very everyday ways, saying, there are some forces out there that are seeking to pull you away from the kingdom of God in the way of Jesus. The having that awareness, I think, is just really important. To keep us on that narrow path.

Joshua Johnson: 48:57

You know, at the end of the sermon of the Mount, Jesus ends it with the parable of the wise and the foolish builder. And he calls us to to actually put his words into practice. He says, if you're the one who builds his house on a rock, you're like, wise builder, here's my words and puts them into practice. But if you you know, build your house on the sand, you're like the foolish builder who hears my words and doesn't put them into practice. I mean, that's a pretty, pretty big call to Pew centers, and people in the church of hearing the words of Jesus and not doing them Jesus calls them foolish ads. I mean, Jesus is calling them fools, not me. Jesus so what so then what is obedience look like? In that? If it's not just if it's not just doing it for moralism sake, what is obedience look like in that?

Rich Villodas: 49:54

I think it's obedience is at the core about have a desire for communion with Jesus and conformity to his way. I think moralism what Jesus is addressing can be so fixated with performance, the outwards even like when Jesus teaches about prayer, and he says, don't play like these pagans, who pray for show, who pray, superstitiously, who pray super religiously, the focus is on the show is on the performance thing with someone who's really practicing it. It's about I want my, I want a life of communion with Jesus, I want to know him, I want him to know me. And I want to be conformed to the way of his kingdom. And I think when the motivation now is around, union with God, and the motivation is around imitating Jesus in the world for the sake of bearing witness to his kingship, His love is compassion for the world. I think that's how we guard against moralism. And Joshua, I think, naming the ways that the human heart can tend to gravitate towards performance, I think it's just really important to just come to terms with. And so in some ways, when I, when I teach about integrity, living with integrity, one of the ways I like to think about it, is that integrity is not about living something perfectly, but wrestling with something faithfully. And I think that's what obedience ultimately is. It is my in many times feeble attempt to rustle faithfully with the teachings and the way of Jesus, knowing I'm going to fail. But thank God for the grace of God. I think what Jesus is getting at with those who are building on sand, are those who are, you know, there there is this intellectual assent, but there's no particular ordering to one's life. It's just I got it here. And you know, who else has it here? I've been just I've been focusing on this recently, because we're going to be starting a series on the book of James, the demons have good theology, too. And they believe, and they have actually better discernment than the disciples in the New Testament. And yet they don't have the life of God. And so I think what Jesus is getting at is more than just intellectual assent. It's about organizing and ordering our lives, according to Jesus in the way of his kingdom.

Joshua Johnson: 52:29

Yeah, that's really good. So then, if you had a can talk to your readers, what hope would you have for your readers of the narrow path?

Rich Villodas: 52:39

My hope, number one would be to properly kind of categorize Jesus's teachings as difficult. I think we need to start there and not act as if this is not hard. And so the challenge I have is some folks who go, oh, this is unrealistic. And so I want to say what feels unrealistic with humans is possible with God. I really believe that following Jesus is the way to a spacious life. And I would want my readers to take his promises serious that if you build your life on him and his teachings, there's a strong foundation that awaits you. There's a spaciousness to your soul that awaits you. There is a quality of life and, and connection with God that's available to you. And but it's, it's not going to come easy. And but I think anything that we've done in our lives, that has been of meaning hasn't come easy. It's been something that we've actually had to wrestle with. But in that wrestling, we get to that place, and it's so much more meaningful than somebody that didn't cost us anything.

Joshua Johnson: 54:03

I have a couple really quick questions. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give

Rich Villodas: 54:09

our 21 I had just become a Christian. I was 19 when I became a Christian, so 21 I was on Well, I would say calm down. I was one I was incredibly zealous Joshua. I mean, so I will slow arguing with everyone that that age. Part of it feels like I don't know if that's just part of the the normal growth of someone who's like, come into a newfound hope in life and Christ and I want every the good part of that is I wanted others to know Jesus, the shadow side of that is I did it in a way that was very argumentative, coercive, manipulative. And so I would say, calm down. You can trust Jesus in this. And I would just say I would probably say I pray far more than you do. You know, I think much of the it's funny because much of the advice that in I remember, Billy Graham was asked that similar question as well about what he would do differently in his ministry is response was like, pray a whole lot more. And most of the folks that I've regarded and respected. The vast majority of them have said, you know, I wish I prayed more, and just with God, and so I was, I would tell my 21 year old self, pray more. You know, be with God.

Joshua Johnson: 55:34

Good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend.

Rich Villodas: 55:39

Well, I just I met I just read Maryland Robbins, his book Gilead, which is a classic. It's amazing. Yeah. So it was, you know, it was a bit slow for me at first, and then it then it just clicked. And I was like, Whoa, this is amazing. And I just picked up her latest book on reading Genesis, which may be about 75 pages in. She's just remarkable. I watched recently Godzilla minus one.

Joshua Johnson: 56:08

So did I so good, amazing. Oh,

Rich Villodas: 56:11

one of the best films I've watched in a while it's just and I'm not like a Godzilla fan. But it's it's it's not really about Godzilla. It's it's about the the horrors of nuclear war and the horrors of PTSD and, and then the beauty of human love and family and connection. So I'd say Godzilla minus one and Marilyn Robinson.

Joshua Johnson: 56:38

Perfect. Good. Well, then how can people go and get the narrow path? And where would you like to point people to connect with you?

Rich Villodas: 56:45

Wherever your your favorite bookseller, I mean, it should be available on you know, available everywhere, mid July 2024. And if they want to find me on social media, at ritual, Lotus, Instagram, and Twitter X, whatever we're calling it now. And that's where I'm usually testing out ideas for Sherman's and books. And then, or, or tweeting like a crazy person around my sports team. So that's basically where you're going to get

Joshua Johnson: 57:18

perfect. Sounds good. I love that I go get the neuropathy is fantastic. Just live in the Sermon on the Mount. It's, it is a wonderful place to be as where where Jesus has, you know, the best sermon ever told right there on the mountain. So read. Rich's book is fantastic, rich, this was a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for giving your time walking us through the sermon on the mount and what a spacious life looks like what the good life in the kingdom looks like. So thank you for this. It was fantastic. Yeah.

Rich Villodas: 57:51

Thank you, Joshua. Really appreciate you having me