Shifting Culture
On Shifting Culture we have conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Hosted by Joshua Johnson, this podcast features long-form conversations with authors, theologians, artists, and cultural thinkers to trace how embodied love, courage, and creative faithfulness offer a culture of real healing and hope.
Shifting Culture
Ep. 202 Bryan Loritts - Enduring Friendship
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There is a loneliness epidemic. We’ve lost our ability to connect to one another. In this conversation with Bryan Loritts we discuss the importance of enduring friendships. God's primary way of shaping people is through relationships with others and the Bible places a high premium on relationships, seen in concepts like the Trinity and salvation. Jesus modeled community by choosing 12 disciples to be with. We talk about the idea that friendships are important for accountability, correction and preventing isolation that can enable moral failure and the importance of being open and vulnerable within close friendships. Join us as we learn how to connect and have friendships that endure.
Bryan C. Loritts (DMin, Liberty University) is teaching pastor of the Summit Church in Durham, North Carolina. He has dedicated his life and ministry to seeing the multiethnic church become the new normal in our society. He is also vice president for regions for the Send Network, the church planting arm of the Southern Baptist Convention, where he is responsible for training church planters in multiethnic church planting. He has been a featured speaker at the Global Leadership Summit and Catalyst. His books include Insider Outsider, The Dad Difference, and The Offensive Church. His latest book is Enduring Friendship.
Bryan's Book:
Enduring Friendship
Bryan's Recommendations:
Truman
The Miracle of St. Anthony
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I think we talk a lot about giving grace as well, we should, but we really don't talk enough about receiving grace. So, you know, we really set ourselves up for abuse by faulty teachings of grace. And what I mean by that is just give grace, give grace, give grace, give grace give grace, and the person never changes their behavior. The only real way you know that person is receiving the grace that you're giving them, is it is changing them. It's changing them. Right. And so I think a lot of times, relationships get derailed, not because I don't give grace, but because that person isn't actively receiving it, and being changed by it.
Joshua Johnson:Brian, welcome to shifting culture excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.
Bryan Loritts:Josh, I've been looking forward to this for quite some time. Good to be here with you.
Joshua Johnson:I am glad that we're on. And we're gonna be talking about enduring friendship and friendships today. Because right now, it seems like there's a loneliness epidemic, and at least in the United States that we're not very good at, at making friends at having friendships endure. Why, as you've been looking and studying the Bible, and scripture, and church and community, why is friendship so important?
Bryan Loritts:Oh, because God's primary way of shaping and forming us to look more like him is through other people. You know, so the premium the Bible places on relationships, it is so high, I don't think it's possible to actually overstate it, you know, so, I mean, the very doctrine of the Trinity, right? It is, it is God dwelling in eternal community and friendship. You know, this whole idea of salvation. The way this scripture kind of posits it is we are adopted Ephesians chapter one into a family together, Heaven is not going to be some isolated eternal experience, it's going to be experienced communally with other people. The first thing Jesus does in his public ministry is he selects 12 individuals, puts them together in community, and most of their time together is in relational settings. They're walking through fields together, they're on boats with one another, they're at meals with each other. I saw one scholar say, in the Gospel of Luke, Jesus is either at a meal, he just left a meal, or he's on his way to another meal. So you know, this idea of community it is embedded in the scriptures,
Joshua Johnson:it is embedded in the scriptures, and I love the the image of meal, I love the image of like, sitting down together. And when I think of friends, I do I think of food, and drink, and like we're together over something over a meal, we're sharing something together. And so what has the role been of friendship and food? In your life? What is the meal the table been for you with friendship?
Bryan Loritts:Oh, it's huge, you know. And I don't want to, I don't want to make more of the metaphor than what I should make of it. However, I don't want to, I don't want to understate the metaphor of food. I mean, we understand in the Bible, in the culture of the time, that who you ate with was a serious statement of social status, which is why Jesus is most common critique centers around who he eats with. So Jesus actually uses the table to make some profound statements socially. So the very fact that you see tax collectors at times at the table or women of ill repute come while he's at the table. It is it is a profound statement. I also think the table though metaphor, metaphorically and figuratively, can represent kind of this whole aspect of whatever brings you joy, community or delight. That is the idea of affinity. So we might replace the table with men just enjoying one another's company at a sports outing, at a concert somewhere. You know, whatever that may be. It's a place where there should be laughter, enjoyment, a sense of commonality that really fosters intimacy and community.
Joshua Johnson:You know, as you reflect on your life, how have friendships help? I help you form into the image of Christ. How has discipleship and friendship within your own life? held hands together?
Bryan Loritts:So yeah, I mean, I'll I'll answer your question. But I think it's important to just kind of zoom out and just say, any study on human relationships. And I'm not just talking Christian studies, but secular studies as well, they draw a straight line between a sense of well being wholeness, happiness, and in ritual, what Aristotle called thick community. So I just feel like a part of what it means to be made in the image of God, the Imago Dei is this deep longing that we have for friendships and community. And then there really is a direct line between my sense of well being wholeness, what the Bible would actually call Shalom, and the relationships that I nurture. I would also say, you know, in my line of work, I serve as a spiritual leader pastor. When I step back and look at leaders within the church who have had huge moral implosions, and for sure I'm not beyond this, I don't say this in any kind of self righteous posture, the common denominator is always the same. And that is isolated, lonely individuals. In other words, I think we get fixated on what they did wrong, that we really lose sight of what they did wrong. I don't think it was the sexual immorality or, you know, whatever illegal activity, it may have been, or, or you could fill in the blank, whatever. I don't think that's the issue as much as the sense of isolation and secrecy that they had to nurture to indulge that. So, for me, relationships are utterly I like to say, friendship is not an elective in the curriculum of life. It is core. It's foundational, and I'll end with this. It's a good study to compare the life of Samson with that A, David, there's a lot of commonalities there yet strong leaders. You know, alpha males, both had a weakness for women. Both fall with women, one languishes in his failure, Samsung one comes out of it, David, what's the difference? Well, I'll ask another question. Tell me who are Samson's guy friends? Yeah. I don't think and I think that just tells you everything, right. Just tells you, David, we know his girlfriend, so yeah, yeah. They're everything.
Joshua Johnson:I mean, that relationship, David, and Jonathan's relationship is pretty, pretty cool. It's pretty amazing that they could come and be friends. And we actually have a good example of a biblical friendship right there with David and Jonathan. What, what are some things that we have learned from that? And then I want to get back into some of these leaders. Like we're talking about David's so in him as he's falling, why is that relationship so important, his male friendships that he had so important for him to actually come out of that fall into something new and the opposite of Samsung?
Bryan Loritts:Well, you know, it's like, of course, there's Jonathan, David and Jonathan, that that friendship is is huge. And I think that, that points some pretty interesting thing about friendship that's telling that I think we should, we should be able to take from that apply to our lives for Sen. Chapter 18 is the first time when David and Jonathan meet. It's right up there. When David kills Goliath, and it says in First Samuel, chapter 18, he is in those opening verses, that the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David and he loved him as his own soul. And then here's the key. He formed a covenant with David. All right. I think the idea there is one of intentionality. I just don't feel like we are intentional enough with our friendships. I think every serious friendship has to have a DTR. Where let's define this, man, I'm really enjoying what I'm experiencing with you. Here's some needs that I have. I want to invite you in closer. Maybe that looks like a weekly breakfast that we do together. And maybe we work through a book, there's some accountability, whatever that looks like. I think we have to get really intentional about our work. chips. But then if you just fast forward to when David actually calls with Bathsheba, the one who actually calls them out as a guy by the name of Nathan. And just think of the humility that David had to exercise you as king, he could have killed Nathan, right? could have killed him, you know, just kind of swept it under the rug, it took a lot of humility for the king, to receive that word of correction, which ultimately came from God through the prophet, and to use that as a springboard for his own restoration. So I think one of the things we can take from that is the ability to hear and receive hard things, truth from other people, and to actually use it as a means for transformation and repentance.
Joshua Johnson:You know, talking about leaders that have fallen that actually are lonely, they don't have a lot of these friendships. It reminds me of James when he says, confess your sins, one to another, and you will be healed. It's an an openness of who I am, how do we actually open ourselves be vulnerable to the to a few, where we start to open up in a way where we can have a strong enough friendship where we can confess our sins, one to another, we can be healed, we can open ourselves up to say, you're going to actually see who I am, and who are the ones that we should be opening ourselves up to. If we're not supposed to open ourselves up to everybody with all things.
Bryan Loritts:Yeah, that's a great question, Joshua. And probably, I should have said this at the beginning of our time together. When let's just define we're talking about when we talk about friends, we're not talking about people who follow you on social media. We're not talking about all the people in your cell phone, we're talking about what the ancient Celts called your Anam Cara, and what they meant by the phrase Anam, Cara, the best way to translate that is our soul friends. Those who who use the word transparent those we bare our souls to who see more than most. And social scientists say we only have the capacity to have about three to five of those five at the absolute most right? And so I think a good biblical illustration of this is Jesus on the night that he's betrayed. Judas has left so there's 11 disciples, now they go to the Garden of Gethsemane, the Gospel writers are clear, Jesus leaves eight of the 11 at the gate, he only takes three deeper into the garden. That's Peter, James and John. And it's interesting, the Gospel writers say things like, he began to be troubled, he began to be sorrowful. Now that's telling Joshua, because what they're saying is, Peter, James, and John saw a side of Jesus in that moment that the other eight did not. Right. So the thing that I like to say is, and it's what I try to teach my kids who are now young adults is, look, be authentic with everybody, but transparent with few. And I think when we talk about the issue of transparency, we're now talking about issues of trust, and trust should not be gained too quickly. I do think there is a sense in which I just have to methodically, like, over time. That's something that is really earned. And there's a lot of wisdom that goes into that, you know, you quote James earlier, James, he says, you know, if any of you lacks wisdom, that we could ask of God, and God would give it to us. So I would ask out for wise discerning spirit. The writer of Proverbs says, guard your heart for from it real close the springs of life. So there's a stewardship issue here. And we shouldn't take lightly who we open up and let in. And then just remember, we're talking again, three, no more than five of these individuals. So I would make it a matter of deep prayerful discernment. Yeah.
Joshua Johnson:Wow. That's, that's wise, be intentional discern, and, you know, go deep, make sure that we have those those soul friends. You know, if you're, you went to the garden of disseminate, you have the three, he began to show, you know, his sorrow to to those right afterwards. Later, you know, Jesus goes to his death. Peter denies Jesus, the rooster crows, he denies Jesus. And I love I love the scene afterwards when you know, Peter doesn't know what to do. The resurrection he goes back he's going fishing, and Jesus and His resurrected body shows up on the beach. You know, Peter comes swimming to Jesus. He has food therefore him right. He's cooking some fish. Is there some bread and then he gets into those three restoration things, you know, you know, Feed my sheep too. You love me too? You love me? What's the in that role for enduring friendship? After maybe some betrayal or conflict, things that are really difficult then for restoration, to come back so that friendships can actually last longer and long term friendships?
Bryan Loritts:Yeah, I mean, so, you know, trust can be broken, just like that, within a blink of an eye, right. But it takes a lot longer to repair trust. So I think the work of reconciliation, which is what you're talking about here, I think it just, you just have to be patient on both sides. So if I'm the one who broke the trust, and a person confronts me, I apologize, I confess what I have to acknowledge, is, is probably going to take some time to get back on track to where it is. And I have to own that I have to own that. Absolutely. I think for the person who's been offended, who's been offended, they have to be patient with themselves. If they do feel like, Listen, this breach of trust, is something that we can absolutely positively work through. It's going to take some time to actually do that work to actually get through it. So here's what here's what I'm looking for. If a person betrays me, and we sit down, and we have a conversation, and so I outlined these three things in the book, their truth, repentance, and grace. First is we just got to talk about what happened. And you know, I always tell people, be careful with this scripture that says, Speak the truth in love. Because when I go into a situation, I don't really have truth right away, what I have is perspective. And then it's important to realize I don't have truth, I have perspective, because now it changes my approach. Instead of coming in making statements, I should come in asking questions, right, and trying to get here, because at the end of the day, the point is to not win the argument. It's to salvage and strengthen the relationship, those are two very different things. And so once we get a sense of clarity over that truth encounter, then then I should see the beginnings of repentance on the other side, and that's where confession is made. And then over time, you're walking the road of repentance. Now, this is very important, I try to make this this clear in the book. Any person when they're confronted with the truth, who refuses to repent or change their behavior, we actually call that abuse. So this book is not about being with someone who's an abuser, in any form, physical, emotional, mental, whatever it may be. If that person is not willing to confess, to own it to walk the road of repentance, then they're not ready for a relationship. And unfortunately, that happens a lot. But not only is truth that repentance needed grace on my part is needed. And essentially what Grace says is, I'm going to give you what you don't deserve. And I can't look at the scoreboard and give you grace at the same time. Now, let me say this one final thing about grace, I think we talk a lot about giving grace as well, we should, but we really don't talk enough about receiving grace. So, you know, we really set ourselves up for abuse by faulty teachings of grace. And what I mean by that is, just give grace, give grace, give grace, give grace give grace, and the person never changes their behavior. The only real way you know that person is receiving the grace that you're giving them, is it is changing them. It's changing. Right? And so I think a lot of times, relationships get derailed, not because I don't give grace, but because that person isn't actively receiving it and being changed by it.
Joshua Johnson:That's so good. I think we're really bad at receiving grace. I think we're, we're bad at a lot of things because of our individualistic culture, saying I could pull myself up by my bootstraps, I could do this. I don't actually need it. It's a, I think what it is, is a push back on, on community as a push back on being in a communal relationship not and saying, it's really just about me. So when we're looking through our own individualistic Western, cultural lens, how could we start to shed some of that to be open to this? You know, the way that God is this Triune God in relationship that we could say, Hey, I'm open for more I'm open for something more communal and not just individual
Bryan Loritts:Yeah, it's so tough, right? Because now I think we're getting to issues of church hurt for some people a lot of pain. For some people, the word trauma is an app description of what they have gone through. Some people carry that from, you know, absentee fathers, or, you know, they came out of divorce situations, maybe they've gone through a divorce brought about by some betrayal or whatever. Nobody comes into relationship with a blank slate, we carry a lot of stuff with us. And so I think it'd be important for me to just stop right there and to acknowledge that pain. However, I think this is where Satan can get a foothold, because one of the messages that he can attach to people who have been traumatized by other people and broken relationships is to whisper in our ears. So you really don't need people. Right. And I think we have to see that for what it is, I think we can walk and chew gum. And what I mean by that is, we can both acknowledge the pain that I've gone through relationally. And at the same time, say, people are a gift and I need them. Right. CS Lewis has this great line, I think it's in his book The four loves. He says, Listen, when something happens to you, and I'm paraphrasing, a lot of times, what we do is we take our hearts and we wrap them up. And we say never again, we put them in a box, seal it up. And he goes really at the end of the day, the only person really being hurt is the person whose heart is wrapped up. And at some point, I'm going to have to learn to extend myself again. To do that, and in it takes it takes me allowing truth to override my feelings on that. Right. That's really what we're getting at. But again, I just want to encourage people to move slow and to be really discerning but she gotta have people in your life.
Joshua Johnson:Yes, you use the the framework of Philemon the the letter of Philemon, which should be called an SMS, because on this mess is the is the main character is awesome. I like the restoration of him. Right? So he has now restored to move forward. Why did you take five Lehman? Why are you using that as a framework? I was I was a little surprised since you know I love this story because I worked with refugees for a long time. So I like the people in exile finding, finding some hope finding Jesus finding some reconciliation there and restoration and then bringing it back into their own people the places where they were hurts and and traumatize with Why did you use Philemon? What was that for you? Why is it so important?
Bryan Loritts:Great question. You know the Book of Philemon at its core, it's about reconciliation, right so kind of the cliffnotes version of it is Philemon, the church at Colossae meets and fine Lehman's house, which is in the Lycus Valley. Philemon is a wealthy man, who, among other things, is a slave owner, which listen as an African American man, that's extremely troublesome. And I get into some of that in the book. Oh, Neff. summus, is probably not his birth name. It was a common name among slaves. It simply means useful. ons. This one day says enough of this. I'm leaving. In all likelihood he steals from Philemon to fund his flight. It's not like he's been saving up a whole lot of money and how's he going to make it on his own? We know he probably steals because Paul does if he owes you anything, or if he's wrong in any way, charge it to my account. And so an SMS leaves Colossi goes down to Rome. I think he actively seeks Paul out and he would have heard of Paul because the church of Colossi which ball at a hand and planting meets and finally miss home. Paul leads him to faith in Christ disciples him years his story, how he's run away how he's stolen from Philemon and says, You've got to now go back to make it right. The problem now though, is fine. Lehman can actually have on SMS a runaway slave put to death by crucifixion. And so Paul writes this letter to appeal to Philemon to receive him back. Now, here's how he knows about reconciliation because Paul says them, I want you to take him back no longer as a slave but much more as a slave as a brother. That's that's how we know it's reconciliation. And, you know, honestly, I wish there was a better word than reconciliation because oftentimes when we think about reconciliation, we think If returning to the way things were, that's not what Paul wants. He does. He doesn't want the master slave relationship. He wants a relationship centered around friendship around brotherhood. So that's why I centered it on that because the message of Philemon is really centered around this whole idea of friendship, brotherhood, that sort of a thing. And I think it's very telling. And I think each person in met all represents truth, finally been taken aback. Oh, ness, miss, you have to go back. an SMS represents repentance, I need you to actually make a U turn and go in the opposite direction back to where the scene of the crime is, and make it right. And then Philemon, I need you to show grace, which, you know, technically speaking, they both need to show each other grace. And if we're keeping score, I think Oh, nessa is actually by leaving needs more grace, I think then on Decimus, you know what I'm saying? So I want to be very clear on that. But I think it's a good roadmap for for reconciliation.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, I think it's, it's really helpful. But then that gets into a place of man, there's there's a lot of difference between Philemon and Onesimus, then. So how do you form friendship? Even though you you might be different, right? It's very easy to hang out with people like me. Like if people are like me, I could hang out with them. But they're not going to shape me in a way where people have different perspectives. And things where they could challenge me in different areas. Is, is it important to form some friendships across differences in different divides? Absolutely.
Bryan Loritts:I mean, listen, I think that's what the gospel does, right? We were talking earlier about how Jesus violated social norms with who he ate with, I think, I think one of the core things the gospel does is it transgresses and totally dismantles social boundaries, social norms that that we might have, right? So for example, I mean, when you talk about the value of doing life, who are different with people who are different than us, isn't that marriage? Right? It's definitely it's definitely look, my wife and I have been married for we're coming up on 25 years. You know, she sees the world. As a woman with a completely different set of experiences than me she sees the world fundamentally different than I do. I see the world fundamentally different than she does. And and what God does is He calls us to form a covenant first, right, where we know some things about each other, but we really don't know each other. And then he says, Listen, now that you're tied together, I need you to go on this journey with each other till death do you part. And I can tell you the deep transformative effect in my life. You know, my wife, and I had a conversation with maybe about two years ago, where I was just kind of checking in with her and just saying, you know, at the time, 2223 years of marriage, just okay, how do you see growth in my life? And she would say things like, you're much more patient much more compassionate, much kinder. And that is directly because of God placing her in my life. Right. So I need people who see it differently. I actually think I actually think part of the reason why race continues to dog us in this country. It's not where we fall out ideologically. But it's really, I think, we just don't know each other. Like, we don't really have relationships with the ethnically other by and large. And so again, there's something transformative that happens here it listen. And I know this might be a little this might push the boundaries, and I have some deep biblical convictions about our friends in the gay community, all right. But I can also tell you that while I've maintained those deep biblical convictions at the same time, my wife and I, some of our closest friends are people in that lifestyle. And even though I haven't changed my convictions, the way I express and articulate them, is a lot gentler is is is way more compassionate and kind because of their presence in my life. So I think relationships are deeply transformative. Yeah.
Joshua Johnson:And they're needed like that. We we definitely need that. I know that some rare relationships. And friendships are seasonal. Like we have, like, people come into our lives for a certain amount of time. And for some reason that they're, they're not there anymore. You know, I had a, I had a friend, and I probably I talked to him every day, for really the first 30 years of my life. And then afterwards, it just like, we went to different directions, and nothing. It wasn't anything that like, there was no big conflict, there was no big reason it was just we just diverged in, in our life path. And, you know, we connect every once in a while, but it's not the same. What. So are there like seasonal friendships? And if those season starts ends, how then can I really form new friends that may actually endure? And last, so I can open up and be transparent to some people? Again?
Bryan Loritts:Great question, Joshua. Great question. I actually think seasonal friendships are the norm. If I could talk to my 20 something year old self back in the day, I would say, you know, stop freaking out, stop beating yourself up, stop beating them up. I think seasonal friendships are just are just the norm. And I think it's almost like running a marathon. And there's these water stations, you know, at strategic points along the way, that's that's how I want to see these friends. They they drop into our lives, during stretches of life's marathon with a cup of cold water, we're refreshed by them. It's genuine, it's authentic. And then for whatever reason, you know, job transfers, maybe we get moved down to the city. Maybe season the Blight stuff happens. You know, maybe, you know, there was some issue that came up that we couldn't work through. I don't want to discredit all the valuable stuff that came before, I think we should work really hard. You know, someone says choose your friends, slowly and be slower even still to walk away from them. So I'm not I'm not saying that, you know, just just say they're seasonal, and just kind of wipe my hands of them without doing the work to try to save it. But I just feel like the normal pattern is seasonal friendships, be appreciative of God for the stretch of life they were with you on and and ask God to keep your heart open for whoever he has next, who will drop into your life?
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things to say like in the book, like when you were you're 40, you're you're praying for those long term relationships, those friendships that will last. And I think that's part of, of intentionality. And so, we're, like, Where is God in the mix of making friends? Are we? How do we do we ask, and then how do we move towards towards people to say, I actually want a friendship here, it's a vulnerable place to be to try to open yourself up to say, Hey, are you gonna have me as a friend?
Bryan Loritts:It's a vulnerable? Absolutely. So absolutely. Listen, if, if my thesis is right, and I really do think it is that the primary way God shaped us is through other people, then human, the human resource, or the human gift of friendship, is one of the most valuable things I could ever experience in life, which means it has to be a matter of prayer, right? And so that's something I regularly pray for myself, praise God. I'm experiencing it. But it's also something I regularly pray for my young adult kids. So my kids are 2321 19. Here's the reality of parenting. For those of you who are listening, there will come a point when your voice and position of influence will be diminished. And you know, someone once said, When a guy starts smelling perfume and gasoline, that's when your that's when your voices is somewhat diminished. And so I've always prayed for godly camp counselors for my kids, godly mentors, godly peers, godly friends, who who will come alongside of them. So absolutely, positively should be a matter of prayer. And then when we actually talk about, okay, I've been praying about it. I'm seeing some potential here. You know, CS Lewis says in his book, The four loves that all friendships begin on a note of you too. So there should be some sense of affinity, some sense of enjoyment, and I would just, I would enjoy the friendship or what it is very much let it let it unfold organically for a couple of months, six months, maybe even a year. But then again, I talked about this earlier, I do think there comes a point which we want to be intentional about it, right? I want to get the most out of this in a way that's not overbearing. And there is vulnerability and saying and saying, in so many words, hey, I really enjoy you. I have some needs in my life, I have some struggles in my life, I have some areas of growth in my life, that I just want to open up. And and have you speak into. And I'd love to talk to you about what that looks like. And when you open yourself up like that, you do run the risk for a person, you know, backing away, either either verbally or maybe the nonverbal cues they're sending you. And that can be really painful. But there's a sense of vulnerability that comes with that, that's just unavoidable.
Joshua Johnson:Now, I've heard many, many leaders say that, and as you you have seen, that it is so difficult to make friends, because I can't really be open and honest to everybody else. You know, the people around me, will not respect my leadership, which I don't think is is correct, but so I do think that leaders sometimes think that they actually can't be open and vulnerable. With other people like there is just they've been hurt, they've been burned in the past. How, how would leaders go about, like finding those friends, which are crucial and needed? And if they don't have it, you know, things in their life are going to implode? So how can leaders go about finding this?
Bryan Loritts:jasha You're asking all the right questions today, I think what you're putting your, your, your hand on is, it's hard to be friends with people you wear multiple hats with. I use the word hard, I don't use the word impossible. It's really, really hard. So for example, if it's an employer employee relationship, and we're trying to be friends, okay, so we're enjoying the friendship, but what happens when I inevitably have to tell you something that you don't like, I have to, you know, you know, give you maybe some hard feedback on your job performance, it's hard to shift those gears, it's just hard to shift those gears. And in my experience as being a leader, it's not that I don't want to or I haven't tried it, there are plenty of times where the difficulty is on the other side of the table. Right? So I now I now tell you, you have to do something in the name of work. And there's attitudes, maybe that come along with that, maybe I'm the one getting walled off. So I'm not saying you can't happen, you can't have that within your organization within the church you lead whatever the entity may be, you might want to keep open to that. But I would look to fish in another part of the pond or in a different pond altogether, where you don't have to wear multiple hats. So I think there is some wisdom, and maybe even layering your friendships and just going okay, God, I I think there's some wisdom in me having relationships with peers who are on the org chart with me. Yes.
Joshua Johnson:I think that's, that's very helpful. And I think I really pray and I hope that leaders start to seek those those out because it is absolutely needed. No more being lonely and not being open and vulnerable with others. It needs to happen with with a few. So use one of the things like your your thesis, right relationships are one of the most important things that God has given us, to form us and shape us. And especially in the US, in this the culture that we have of performance, and work and Slike, overworking ourselves, we neglect relationships over you know, getting our so called work done because we actually value our work more than the people around us. How can we we start to flip that a little bit and start to value our relationships and get worked on at the same time. What is the importance of bringing value to the relationship and relationships over time? Because I do know that people on their deathbed don't really say I wish I worked more they always say I wish spent more time with who The people that I love.
Bryan Loritts:So David Brooks wrote a great book a couple years ago called The Road to Character. And he talks about two kinds of virtues. So two different sets of virtues. There is kind of the resume the resume set of virtues, which centers around work centers around productivity, achievement, accomplishment, all those things. And then there's what he calls the eulogy virtues. All right, the resume is pretty much what I say about myself. The eulogy is what others will say about me. And that's really connected to, to relationships, and you're, you're 100%, right? All of our regrets, the older we get, will tend to drift towards the relational side of the ledger, I wish I would have spent more time with the kids, I wish I would have nurtured that marriage more, you know, I wish I wouldn't have traveled so much. So that I could have, I wish I would have invested in more friendships. So I do think I do think you're spot on. And if that's the case, then we need to live with the end in mind. Because I don't think anybody on their deathbed is going to wish they would have bought that brand new SUV or wish they would have bought that second or third home. You know, it's interesting, Joshua, when I was just young getting into ministry, I know I wanted to be a pastor. And I would spend time interning with a lot of accomplished pastors. And I would ask them, these kinds of questions like, What would you do differently? All of them, all of their answers were relational. And so I just kind of made a note to self that I really want to throw myself into relationships. And now I think your 20s and 30s, you're climbing what I call mountain significance. You're really trying to leave lead, leave your mark. And I got caught up in that. But you know, it's what Arthur Brooks wrote a book called from strength to strength. And he talks about how in the second half of life, especially, we have to make a relational pivot into such things as mentoring, into what maybe even the Bible calls discipleship. That's the sweet stuff of life. And so that's where we're really where I've, I've tried to make a pivot in my own life.
Joshua Johnson:Does that now in your life as you're, you're helping lead a church? Does it shift the way that that church is done? That you, you see, like, hey, we actually have to devalue to getting, you know, close proximity to one to another. These these friendships are key and valuable within the church. Does it? Has it shifted over time? The value of relationships within a church community?
Bryan Loritts:I would say it is shifting. You know, it, it makes it really hard. pastoral ministry is really hard. Especially, you know, our church is pretty big. Yeah, our church is pretty big. It's a complicated organization, all kinds of campuses, all the things. But the message we're really trying to beat here, among our, our pastoral leadership is that's exactly who we are. We're pastors. And as such, we got to stay relationally connected with the shape we're not, you know, we're not in some C suite. Again, there's the business side of church that very much needs to be handled. And I don't want to diminish that. I don't want to look down on that. But, but our, our product, if I can put that in quotes is people. And the way that we need to transform, or be used as instruments of transformation by God is to walk in relational closeness with people. So I think that's worth teaching to be managed. It's not a box to be checked, because I feel like we're constantly drifting away from that back into productivity. Right. But we're pastors,
Joshua Johnson:a lot of times, I think, even in that, you know, in church, one of the things that we do is we get reactive to things and we have a pendulum swing, and we just go way far off on the other end. So even with that with it, it's not a box shot as attention to be managed. One of the things is you're veering off, you're doing some course correction back before it actually gets into a pendulum swing and you've been off track way too long. How do you keep Making sure that you're aligned to what God has called you to do. Especially within those relationships, that closeness of relationships and course correct back into alignment with that.
Bryan Loritts:Well, you got to stay focused on the picture, right? Like, who's the one that we're really trying to model our ministry after, but it needs to be Jesus. And if there's, if there's one thing Jesus did over and over again, it was relationships, you know, with the 12. And so one of the things that I always try to keep with me, especially this phase of my minute of my ministry, is just keep a group of young men that I'm just encouraging and championing. I'm pouring into, you know, oftentimes, I'll travel with these young men suggest trying to do that, and live that out in real time, my wife and I, and lead a marriage group with some young couples at the church, that, you know, we just get together, do a meal, throw out some questions really encourage, that's what I tried to do. If I limit my ministry, to a stage on Sunday, that's just going to set me up for a sense of distance, I'm going to be removed, I'm going to allow myself to be put on a pedestal. But there's something about proximity with people. That is really transformative and nurturing to my old to my own soul.
Joshua Johnson:You know, so if if people would go and pick up your book and during friendship, which is fantastic, and they should, and they should just actually then live into an enduring friendship and friendship. What would your hope for your readers be?
Bryan Loritts:My hope is that they would come away with a sense of hope, that they would be convinced this is God's will for their for their lives, and they would be convinced that listen, friendship is it's hard work, what what what we're talking about. It cuts against the grain of, of, you know, I often hear people make statements like, and they're talking about a friend, man, they're just so easy, right? It's just so natural. Nothing, just like, that's not reality. I have a mentor who says it's not a friendship until you screamed at each other. Right? It's a bit overstated, but what he's trying to say is, you know, we've got a shadow side to us. And until you hit that, it's just all fluff. And so a lot of times we hit it, and we back off from it. And so I want people to read my book and go, Listen, I'm a sinner, you're a sinner. There's got to be disappointment, but it's worth doing the work to work through the disappointment.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, can you just briefly, you know, what has been a life giving friendship for you? And why do you think you it's been so life giving?
Bryan Loritts:Gosh, so, you know, there are, there's a small group of us, we got put in a small group at a church we were at in Southern California back in the 90s. And we stayed, we stayed connected, almost 30 years, almost 30 years later. There's one particular guy in that group. Man, he, he's the guy that I call, in real time, when I'm having struggles, in the sense of accountability and vulnerability, and let me just say this, Joshua, you can't keep anybody accountable. You know, how many accountability groups I've sat in, in the name of accountability and people just lied. Accountability has got to be something that I solicit. And that I make up my mind to, I'm going to extend myself. And he, you know, we just he just sat on my back porch the other day, and we talked about some deep matters of the soul. You know, I'm convinced I would have made some very bad choices in my life, if it wasn't for people like him. And there's this little statement that I try to live by Joshua, and maybe it's from the Holy Spirit. When I feel like I'm struggling and I'm about to go down a road. I just, there's a statement that I make drag it into the light. And what that means for me is Take it out of the darkness, all this friend or a couple other friends and put it out there. And that's what this person has been for me.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. And for so helpful. We need people like that. Definitely need people like that. Two quick little questions at the end one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give? I know you touched on it a little bit briefly earlier, but
Bryan Loritts:along the lines of friendship, I love
Joshua Johnson:anything. What would you say?
Bryan Loritts:You know, apologize profusely. Stay out of debt. You know, I did the 20 something. year old thing, man, you know, I think it was in college. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, these people think highly enough of me to give me a credit card. You know, it's just kind of all the things. They're really focused on an authentic walk with Jesus. At that stage of my life, I was finishing a Bible college, I was headed off to seminary, I was very much into learning the competencies of preaching and ministry, when at the end of the day, all that stuff, like anything else in life flows from an intimate walk with, with Jesus. And love your wife deeply. I think those are some of the things along with cultivating deep friendships that I would that I would say to myself. Yep. And don't freak out when that one kid throws a party when you're out of town.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, that's not real life experiences.
Bryan Loritts:Right, right. Right. Right. Right. Anything you've been
Joshua Johnson:reading or watching lately, you recommend?
Bryan Loritts:Oh, so Galius great question. I have finally got around to David McCullough's I think he won the Pulitzer Prize for his biography on Truman, which is about 1000 pages. I adored that book. Great paradigm shifter for me. Just got finished reading. Adrian, what would you build your nasties book, The miracle of St. Anthony, which is if you know, Bobby Hurley and played for Duke, His Father Bob early senior legendary basketball coach. So love that book. couldn't put it down and really excited about Awesome.
Joshua Johnson:That sounds good. Sounds really good. How can people go out get your book and during friendship and how can they connect with you? Where Where do you like to point people to?
Bryan Loritts:To get the book can go to amazon.com You know, any kind of online retailer. It's in bookstores as well to connect with me. I'm on social media platforms like Instagram, Instagram threads, Facebook, I just hopped off of x. And you can go to my website, Brian laurits.com.
Joshua Johnson:Alright, perfect. O'Brien, thank you so much for this conversation. And thank you for diving deep into friendship, and how important it is to have these relationships be open, be vulnerable, transparent with a few. And that we could go the distance that we could actually walk through some reconciliation. And we could like work through complex in a way that is healthy, and that our friendships can last and they could actually help us and form us. So we could look more like Jesus some thank you for this. It was a fantastic conversation. I really, really enjoyed it.
Bryan Loritts:Thank you so much, Joshua.
