Connor (00:01.232)
Hello and welcome to this week's show where we are delighted to be joined by Marion van Happen, CEO of Headfirst Group, one of the most interesting companies in the human capital sector. For those of you who don't know, Headfirst have been acquiring companies over the last 10 years and recently acquired the global leader Impellam Group. Headfirst revenues for the period 2023 were stellar. Some highlights below. So we had...
2 .6 billion in spend at Headfirst Group, 76 million in gross margin and a whopping EBITDA conversion of 50%. And that was on top of 20 % year on year gross margin growth. So I think it's fair to say Marion that you lead a global success story. We're absolutely delighted that you've joined us on the show today. I know it's been an incredibly busy year for you and your team. We can't wait to hear more about the Headfirst Group, but of course,
would like to hear your story. So before we get begin, Marion, how are you doing? How's life?
Marion Van Happen (00:59.598)
Yeah, I'm great. And thanks again for the invitation, Connor. I know we tried to make some more appointments, but it was quite busy and I'm always busy doing business and having my team growing the business, of course. So business first, then the fun. And I'm really looking forward to have this conversation.
Connor (01:29.872)
Well, thank you, Marion. And listen, we're delighted to have you as our guest and of course, business first. So Marion, just for the benefit of our audience and just because I'm naturally curious, what's your story? How did you go on this wonderful career journey where you've been CEO of the Headfirst Group? Can you share your story with our audience?
Marion Van Happen (01:52.878)
Yeah, I've been in HR for over 20 years. Started out with a company called Usgeet People. It was based in the Netherlands and after acquired by Recruit Holdings, also the owner of Indeed and Glasdoor. And I was in the board of directors in the Netherlands in the last three years.
of my career there and well, I'm now in my third year as a CEO of Headfirst Group and enjoying myself a lot with the colleagues I'm gathering. And we've been growing from 230 colleagues up to now 450 colleagues. So we're growing as a company, as teams, growing the business in the Netherlands and outside of the Netherlands.
doing business in over 15 countries.
Connor (02:52.464)
Wow. And I can't wait to delve further into the detail because, you know, unless you've been hiding under a rock in the contingent and human capital world, you'll be most of our listeners will be aware of the headfirst acquisition of Impellam Group. So we're going to going to look at that in a few minutes. But Marion, when you were coming out of school or college or university, what was your journey like? What attracted you to this sector?
Marion Van Happen (03:21.326)
Well, I finished my economics studies and studied for over a year, almost two years in the United States around Chicago area. And then we turned to the Netherlands, started working in the
travel business. So I first finished education in travel, so working with people I always liked and traveled the world and then I started in well over 20 -25 years ago with the USG people.
Connor (04:08.144)
Wow. Wow. And you went all the way through until the acquisition by recruit holdings. That must have been actually I've never worked in a company, Marion, that has been acquired. It must be both exciting, terrifying, filled with no boredom. What was your experience like during that process? It must have been quite interesting.
Marion Van Happen (04:32.366)
Well, it was always in the market that USG people was going to be acquired, whether it was with a deco or a manpower, but it never came true. And then suddenly it was acquired by Recruit Holdings, a Japanese -led company. And I was really excited because I've been working in Europe.
mainly been working in eight countries setting up businesses for UG people. And I was really excited to, to expand my personal development. So when I heard about recruit holdings and about Indeed and Glassdoor, I was just really excited. And what I loved about the Japanese culture is that they are strategic planners.
So they tend to look really far ahead, many years. And I was used to being a listed company and every quarter, well, showing our results. And that's a more short -term strategy. And with recruit holdings, it became a 15 -year strategy.
So I really learned a lot about how working with different cultures outside of Europe, it was a great, great time.
Connor (06:03.344)
Wow. You know what, Marion, I'm looking forward to a glass of wine to hear more about that story. But so thanks for sharing that journey. And then, Marion, of course, you joined the headfirst group as chief executive officer three years ago, which is a pretty big company. So as I understand it, you guys headfirst group are in the top three in your sector, which is pretty amazing.
I covered some of your revenue and profitability numbers there. They're off the charts. And then to add that into the mix, you acquired one of the biggest companies in the sector. And I think it was one of the biggest deals in the sector over the last three to five year period. Absolutely whopping deal. Head first PLC acquiring in Pelham Group. So I'd love to hear a bit about that, Marion, about Marion, sorry, about.
the acquisition, but then if we can just delve into some of the challenges and problems that Headfirst solves for across Europe and across the globe.
Marion Van Happen (07:05.838)
Yeah, of course. Well, I really have to make a little correction because Headfirst Group didn't acquire Impelem Group. There was a PLC company registered Headfirst Global PLC that actually acquired Impelem Group. So now we have a combination of two groups, Impelem Group and Headfirst Group.
And I myself and the CEO and CFO of Impellam Group are in the global board, leading the two companies.
Connor (07:47.888)
Wow. That's, that's, I think it's fair to say Marion, it's bloody exciting. this. Yeah.
Marion Van Happen (07:52.878)
It is, it is. It's very exciting and the collab is exciting. We're getting to know each other a bit more and the colleagues at the Impellam Group, they speak the same language. The leadership team is awesome to work with and yeah, I'm looking forward to working with them much more.
Connor (08:18.672)
tremendous. And Marion, with the combined businesses, if you like, like the size and scale and the reach, it's probably taken you from let's say maybe 10 countries and 50 countries, what does that look like that that combined, combined entities?
Marion Van Happen (08:35.886)
Well combined, we're a company of eight billion and that's humongous. It is. We ourselves think the same. It's great. And we moved up a few places on a global scale with our reach. And especially, I'm really proud that in the STEM profiles, we're in the top five.
Connor (08:44.24)
Yes, it is!
Connor (08:50.032)
Yes.
Connor (09:05.488)
Wow. Wow.
Marion Van Happen (09:05.806)
in the world. So yeah, moving up in the world together with Impellam Group.
Connor (09:10.8)
Well done Marion to you and your team. So Marion, what are the typical challenges that head first, your company, the company that you lead, solves for and what sort of clients do you work with across the globe?
Marion Van Happen (09:26.798)
We work both with public clients, mainly in the Netherlands and in Belgium, and with private clients. And the private clients usually have more countries to serve. So it is financial institutions, insurances, to IT companies, retail, it's across everything.
all sectors we cover.
Connor (10:00.016)
Well, and Marion, what does Headfirst do for your clients? What are the range of services that your company provides?
Marion Van Happen (10:09.07)
We are growing towards a real HR tech company offering a one -stop shopping experience. So for every contingent ask, we have a solution. So we configure for every and each ask of clients what they need in their maturity state of handling contingent workforce.
Connor (10:40.048)
Marion, I think that might give your company quite an advantage because I think if you were to look at some of your competitors globally, the top 10, most of their solutions are what would be described as black box. There's a certain model, a certain system, and there's oftentimes a reluctance to deviate from those because of diseconomies of scale and technology problems. I assume...
your business is seeking to capitalize on that and really offer a more customized experience, a more customized solution. Is that fair to say?
Marion Van Happen (11:16.174)
Yeah, yeah, it is. I think one of our advantages is that we have our own technology and we combine this from a technology agnostic strategy. So we can move fast in technology because we develop in our own company and alongside we have very warm partnerships with all the usual suspects.
doing this is in our area.
Connor (11:49.072)
It's, it's, yes.
Marion Van Happen (11:49.838)
So we talk about, we actually talk about an ecosystem. So we cannot do everything alone and we need partners to, well, to deliver this result.
Connor (12:04.976)
Marion, how many workers would you guys have under management at the moment? Would it be in the thousands at this point?
Marion Van Happen (12:13.622)
You mean the workers working with clients? Yeah. Alone, I had first group, over 25 ,000 workers together with Impelem, 75 ,000.
Connor (12:20.944)
Yes, yes.
Connor (12:31.888)
Wow, that is phenomenal. So I think most interested observers in this space will be watching what happens next with great interest. But Marion, I think it's a phenomenal story, what you guys have done. So continued success to you. So Marion, you guys, and I'm sure you do as well, have a front row seat in.
Marion Van Happen (12:35.822)
It is, yeah.
Connor (12:59.024)
what's being called the talent defilability problem or the talent scarcity crisis, right? Or the war for talent, a phrase that I don't particularly like myself. I think it's sort of bullshitty, right? I don't like it. It's no real meaning. But in relation to talent scarcity, there's a number of trends that I see. Pretty much all Western labor markets are at close to or at what's called full employment, right? Less than
Marion Van Happen (13:08.814)
No.
Connor (13:26.32)
5%, right, which is quite interesting because the eurozone has been in a technical recession, right, for the last number of years. I think it just came out of recession today, 1st of May, right, when we're recording the show. USA has had and continues to defy all labour market economists, right. They've been consistently wrong about what's going to happen. USA is at full employment, best labour market since, I think, 1973, if I'm not mistaken, right. So,
Marion Van Happen (13:32.558)
Yeah.
Connor (13:55.728)
You've got that. But then you've also got companies hiring like it's going out of fashion, right? You know, AI, cybersecurity, renewables. It's really driving up demand for people. And then what is underpinning that is we're not producing enough people in Western labor markets that the birth rates across European Union and the replacement rates and labor have declined considerably over a 40 year period, Marion. And then.
You've got things like the added complexity of Brexit in the UK. They don't want people coming into their country. A lot of countries, particularly in Europe and of course in the USA, are basically saying, hey, we don't want anyone coming into our country unless they fulfill XYZ requirements. So you've got this really tight, scary labor market that's still continuing to grow. So I suppose my question is, Marion, what the hell is happening and what can companies like yours do about it?
Marion Van Happen (14:54.286)
That's quite a large question and a complex question, Conor, so thank you for that. What we see in the Netherlands is that it used to be a really attractive country for foreign students to come over and for expats to work at all the international companies. But the Netherlands is a really attractive country for international headquarters.
But legislation made difficult and more complex showed that sometimes we were less attractive. So companies that were in the news like ASML,
said, well, we want to leave the Netherlands because of the legislation. And that's where I think the solution is that companies really need also to raise their hand and talk to legislation and not only us as a HR company trying to find all the talent there is and trying to develop talent.
but also cooperate with companies who are in need of talent. And I think partnering together with our clients and engaging on workforce planning helps us to find the right talent and create the right talent, but also create the ecosystem that is able to prepare for the right talent to be there in a couple of years.
especially with the energy transition and our global warming problem. We are really in need of a lot of talent.
Connor (16:54.576)
Yeah, I agree. And the problem looks only to be getting worse. And of course, I want to talk about AI and potentially its impact, positive or negative on jobs and what will come on to that, Marion. But one of the things that strikes me about having done a lot of business in the Netherlands is that the legislation around freelances and independent contractors, it looks, Marion, and I know you guys had a report on this recently, I think.
It looks like it's starting to become much stricter again. Is that fair comment?
Marion Van Happen (17:29.294)
Yeah, it sure looks like it. And I'm really worried about this. One of my tasks is also to, since we're a leader in this area in the Netherlands, to have a public affairs agenda. And we think this is going the wrong way, because in the past years, there are more and more people who want to work as a freelancer.
with the legislation says no we want to have everyone in a
within the organization with a fixed contract. But that's a really hard discussion because the legislation is not looking at what's happening in the world. And I think that's not only in the Netherlands the case, but it's also happening everywhere in the world, which is really worrying for creating talent and having people...
Connor (18:25.872)
Yes.
Marion Van Happen (18:38.99)
and also moving to different companies. So what we see is that people stay in their jobs and we need the mobility, especially with people retiring in the next 10 years. We need a lot of people moving to different jobs, developing and it worries me and keeps me sometimes out of my sleep.
Connor (18:43.184)
Yes.
Connor (19:09.104)
Yeah, like Marion, I share your concerns, right? It seems that the labor markets are becoming ever more inflexible as opposed to flexible, right? And I think the end user companies don't want that, right? Because they want to move, if you like, from a fixed cost of employment to a variable cost model, which is, as you and I will appreciate it, and most of our listeners means contractors means freelancers.
bring the people in, she or he or they, for a specific job, for a specific task, for a specific time at a specific rate. You put the appropriate contractual model in place. You hope that that worker's compliant, not hope, sorry, you insist and ensure that that worker's compliant. And theoretically, that should satisfy the requirements of the labor inspectorate and the tax inspectorate. But here's my slight objection to that, right? I think...
for the what I would call the high cost, high choice, independent worker, right? She or he, they've got a really in demand skillset. They can charge within reason, whatever the market wants. This strangles the labor market. And I share your concerns. I don't agree with that. But here's where I am concerned also for the workers at the bottom. What I would describe Marion as the low choice, no choice, the gig workers that are doing really
difficult jobs, right? Sometimes they're immigrants, sometimes they're not educated, sometimes they've got a poor economic opportunity, right? It's hard for them to become a CEO or a managing director or to work up the ladder. They have to do those jobs. For me, those workers should be protected and that part of the labor market should be less flexible, right? And I think that's the problem with some of the regulations. It captures everyone when it should really be looking at the smallest.
Marion Van Happen (21:02.798)
Yes, that's on point, Conor. It captures everyone, and especially the group you mentioned in the lower...
That's not a good word. In jobs like a courier or a pizza delivery person, I think they should be helped in how they can be managed and not having forced to become a freelancer because they need a good income.
Connor (21:27.6)
Yes.
Connor (21:46.512)
Yeah.
Marion Van Happen (21:50.286)
and not the way they are not protected at this moment.
Connor (21:55.248)
Yeah, I agree. I feel so passionately about that, Marion, because they definitely agree with you. They need that protection. I think market forces will look after the in -demand freelancer, she or he, you know, a Python developer or someone really unique.
Marion Van Happen (22:11.918)
Yeah, I think we could add that first group we call it mission critical professional. What about that?
Connor (22:19.28)
I like that. I like that. I like that. That's bloody brilliant. Mission critical professional. I like that. And that's how those workers are treated. And as you well know, Marion, those workers can go anywhere in the world within reason and any company would snap them up. So it seems a shame in a way to burden those workers with a lot of regulation and almost force them to leave the Netherlands or Belgium or somewhere else in Europe.
Marion Van Happen (22:24.878)
Yeah.
Marion Van Happen (22:46.254)
Yeah, it would help the company to have a vision and a strategy to attract talent that can work on premises, but also remote and to have a good balance in that because a lot of people after COVID like to work from different places and they can do their job from a distance.
Connor (22:59.6)
Yes.
Marion Van Happen (23:14.478)
and do a great job. But there are still companies who only want to have all their personnel on premises. And I think we should help to envision and help to execute the strategy that it also is possible to have a hybrid workforce. And that will allow the company to attract the best talent.
Connor (23:43.632)
Yeah, I agree, Marion. And I look forward actually to going a bit deeper on that later later in the show, if we may. What one thought occurred to me when we talk about STEM and mobility and skills. Like I look at my own kids, I've got two daughters, there's seven and four, right? Really young. I came to Parenthood late, right? You know, won't bore our audience with it with the reasons. But anyway, I suppose I'm thinking about how they're educated today.
and how I was educated just 30 years ago, right? And even 30 years ago, I remember sitting in school going, this is a waste of time, right? This is not relevant. I was, parts of it, right? So it's a bit of a rebel, I suppose, Marion, right? But, you know, I remember learning like things in math, like trigonometry and pie charts. And I never wanted, I never wanted to be an engineer, right? No interest to me, right? Even at university, I studied business and
Marion Van Happen (24:22.542)
Yeah.
Connor (24:42.864)
I learned econometrics, right? Which is hardly ever used. You study economics, right? So I suppose my question really is this, Marion, like, do you believe we and countries and particularly governments can do more to help educate our children, not just for the jobs of today, but more importantly, for the jobs of tomorrow? It strikes me that there's a structural problem there, particularly in terms of producing the talent that companies might need.
Would you agree or disagree?
Marion Van Happen (25:13.71)
No, I fully agree. If you ask children in kindergarten what they want to become, they usually say, a doctor or a fireman. And those are traditional jobs. You never hear, I want to be an engineer or a drone pilot. And I think those new jobs, they should be promoted. So that's why...
I had first joined, it's called Initiative Jink, and that's a boss of the future. And primary school children all over the Netherlands are taking over the CEO role of different companies. So I think in two weeks, we have two children, I think with the age of 10.
who will take over my role as a CEO for a day to see how it's like to be a CEO, what kind of work you do. I think that's not my most important reason to join, but I want to show them that we have business analysts, that it's really fun working with data, that people are creating websites here.
Connor (26:17.232)
Wow.
Marion Van Happen (26:41.742)
and what you can do with AI. So give a little information to children how to develop their views on what they want to become when they grow old and finish their schools, but also in the choices of their education.
Connor (27:04.496)
Yeah, I agree. I love that initiative that you guys are part of, Marion. What is it called again? Is it called Yink? Is that correct? Yink. Okay, wow. Okay, that sounds pretty impressive. So Marion, you mentioned AI briefly, right? So here's the conflict for me as a CEO or managing director, right? So I've read extensively on this subject. Now, I wouldn't call myself an expert, right? I was on a...
Marion Van Happen (27:12.91)
Dzińk, ja.
Connor (27:32.24)
panel at Georgia Tech University in the USA two weeks talking about this. Three AI professors, all pro AI, me AI skeptical, right? So, you know, they know everything about it. I only know what I've read, but here's my few and here's why I'm conflicted and I'm really keen to get yours. According to World Economic Forum report on AI, about 60 % of middle, what's called middle class jobs,
will be displaced or adversely affected by AI, right? Now, when I read that, I'm like, whoa, that's pretty bad. If you're a lawyer, accountant, tax advisor, you're probably likely to be replaced or at least displaced, right? Your job's gonna either not be there or it's gonna be fundamentally changed. I'm not sure for the better, right? I'm a bit skeptical as you can tell. But crucially in that report, Marion, right?
Marion Van Happen (28:23.438)
Hmm, yeah.
Connor (28:28.816)
they did not have a solution for what the jobs of tomorrow will be, right? So if you lose your job, there's no guaranteed upside that you're going to get another job, right? Because AI is evolving at such a rate. I think it's increasing about 1000 % per year, right? In terms of what it can do, right? 1000%. We've never, it's unbelievable, right? Marion, sorry. And we've never seen anything like this, even when compared to the industrial revolution. It's not a like for like,
Marion Van Happen (28:46.094)
Unbelievable. Yeah.
Connor (28:56.688)
comparison, at least according to what I've read. So I suppose as a business leader, right, I'm like, okay, I know I need to invest in AI or invest in an AI. But potentially, the net net of that is that jobs are going to be lost, right? And it's not guaranteed that those jobs are going to be replaced or augmented. So I suppose my question for you, Marion is, where do you stand in this issue? Are you conflicted like me? Or are you just like, clear, I'm the CEO?
We're going to invest in this. It's going to make our business brilliant and the societal impact. It doesn't matter. What's your read?
Marion Van Happen (29:31.886)
Well, society matters to me and also to the company. So AI is, I think it's really interesting, like you mentioned, how fast its evolution is happening. And I'm really, I myself like to work with JetGDP and test with Co -Pilot and
I'm really interested in the new technologies. But as a CEO, I have to be careful because we are a HR tech company, we have lots of data and we are a trusted company. So we need to choose carefully what we do and where we use AI from a perspective that it's safe, compliant.
also to have the diverse inclusion discussion. And that's really a huge topic. So we decided that we have a pilot now using AI to transcribe and help consultants to do the boring work, the administrative work, because they're all commercial and they don't like to
write everything down so AI is helping them but the matching person, a human is making the match for the client so we put human touch and so it's tech enables touch and we put the human where its value is best and I think human is still in charge and will be in charge.
Connor (31:24.912)
Yeah, I hope so. Mariana, I I I'd love to be optimistic because I'm a really optimistic guy, right? As you get to know me, I'm the glass is always half full. The sky is always the limit. The possible is always possible for me, right? But the more I see, the more it scares me, right? I was at another conference last week in Miami, Mariana, and there was lots of really.
amazing VC guys, entrepreneurs, private equity, and they're really selling AI, right? And all of them were selling it basically on the basis you're gonna reduce your costs, right? And when they're talking about reducing costs, they're really talking about reducing people costs, right? Because that's outside of buildings, maintenance. Yes, tell me. Yes, exactly.
Marion Van Happen (32:13.102)
I like to turn it around, increase productivity. So we just gain more earnings and make people more happy in their jobs. I do recognize that the jobs are changing. Just to give you an example, many years ago you had people doing data entry. Well, we first robotized that, then we automate that.
And now we use AI to help. And you see that the person who was responsible for the data entry now is more an operator role and organizing and the automation is doing its right job. So yeah, jobs are changing and some will disappear, like you said before.
But we need to be creative where we can, as humans, can put our value best in place.
Connor (33:19.344)
I really like that optimistic view, Marion. And I like the way you've inverted the model. And I think that's a good way to approach this topic, actually. Marion, we talked about remote work, right? And again, this can be a source of potential conflict for certain organizations. I think if you look at, there's a company called Grinder. It's sort of like a dating app or some sort of app.
Marion Van Happen (33:22.542)
Yeah, we should be optimistic.
Connor (33:48.976)
They had, during the pandemic, fully remote. They moved from on -premise to remote. They launched a return to office mandate, I think, earlier in 2023. And the net result of that was that they suffered the worst attrition rate in their company's history. Their best people left to work in a fully remote environment, and not even a hybrid environment, a fully remote environment. I myself have worked remotely on and off for about 13 odd years.
I love it, but I appreciate it's not for everyone. But where do you stand on the topic of remote work, Marion? What is your views on it? Is it good, bad, ugly, or just one of those things?
Marion Van Happen (34:31.818)
I definitely do not think it's ugly. I think for companies you need to find a balance. And for some companies it works to have a fully remote organization. At Headfirst Group we have a hybrid solution and it enhances our values. We have values like learn every day.
connecting people customer first and just that connecting people makes people wanting to work together and the togetherness helps if you meet each other in real life and then take it online and I think it helps to have a balance in this.
And we need to evolve as a company in this to grow fast, to have people work remote and also educate clients that it's possible that there are many solutions to have people work remote. My vision is to have a hybrid is the most compelling and also the most
rewarding solutions to have a successful organization.
Connor (36:03.312)
Yeah, I think that's a really fair comment, Marion. And the other thing, Marion, in your experience working with the large enterprise segment of clients, is there increased openness for them to look beyond their borders for the best talent? Because some of the themes that we explored earlier around legislation, people not being allowed to come into the country, essentially producing less people in the labor force,
Marion Van Happen (36:14.286)
Mm -hmm.
Connor (36:31.664)
Is there a recognition now and a willingness for larger companies to say, well, actually Marion and the Headfirst Group and companies like yours, can we go overseas to get the talent we need and can we engage those workers remotely and compliantly?
Marion Van Happen (36:48.046)
We have discussions about this since scarcity is still in place, especially in our field in the STEM business. So we need to find different solutions and usually you first look around your neighbor countries of course or in your same time zone to organize efficiently.
So that's discussion that happens every day.
we do start partnerships with companies who actually take people from different countries moving to the Netherlands, but then they work on premises. So they will learn how to speak Dutch, move their whole family to the Netherlands. But I see that happening less often. So I think everyone is...
getting ready and scarcity is there and will be there in the next years coming. It is a necessity to have remote work in your company.
Connor (38:05.488)
Yeah, I agree. I think it's a there's a trite phrase, Marion, that the trend is your friend. But I think for companies like yours and companies like ours, this is a really positive trend for I hope our continued business growth. Marion, you've been in the staffing, HR, tech and human capital sector for about 20 years, something like that. Is that correct? Roughly? Yes. Over 20 years. Well, you started very young. I think we can all accept that. But right, Marion. So.
Marion Van Happen (38:26.318)
Yes, yes, for over 20 years.
Connor (38:34.832)
Likewise, I've been in the staffing human capital HR tech sector for coming up to 20 years. My question is, during that over 20 years period, are you surprised by how much the sector has changed? Or do you think on a general basis, it still has a long way to go to make it more modern, to make it more capital efficient, to make it more, I suppose, with the modern times?
Marion Van Happen (39:01.774)
I think the HR business is really traditional because it's still the human who is doing the business with one another. It's a trust that you as a person gives the organization you work with. And we still need to learn how to do business more remotely and trust technology.
So I think we like you ended your your your ask your question with with your own answer, I think, and your own opinion. I think I think we need to learn a lot. And it will be I think this this initiative and your your podcast is you just sharing your experiences and how we can modernize the future of work.
Connor (39:42.928)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Connor (39:59.888)
Yeah.
Marion Van Happen (40:00.174)
At first we have the mission to create the next world of work. And just because we think it always can be better. And it's not only technology, but it's the processes, how we work together, how especially we can help each other in the ecosystem and broaden this ecosystem in the partnerships we can organize globally.
Connor (40:29.52)
Yeah, I agree, Marion. It does strike me though, thinking back to my early part of my career in recruitment, right? Back in 2007, Marion, I remember we got LinkedIn. I think we were one of the first adopters. Maybe LinkedIn was out three, four years then, right? But it was so modern and so new. And I'd been working with guys who are maybe 10 or 15 years older than me, right? And I remember them telling me that they had to send like CVs by post or courier.
Marion Van Happen (40:44.878)
Yeah, yes.
Connor (40:57.04)
or DHL or whatever the provider was and fax, yes, fax. And so they moved from courier, the fax, the email, and then you had the ATSs, like the applicant tracking systems. There's so many of them. And then on contingent, you had the vendor management systems. And I think there's been incremental progress in the recruitment sector, but I don't think there's been transformational change on a general basis. Like I always look to...
Marion Van Happen (40:59.406)
Facts.
Connor (41:22.864)
stock markets in the 1980s. Right. Marion, you'll appreciate this as a Dutchie, right? You know, the home of trading, right? You know, the Dutch stock exchange, open outcry, the traders and the brokers were shutting their orders in the 80s, very busy, very aggressive type of environment. And then, you know, the big bang came and technology disintermediated that whole process, made it extremely efficient and effective. But it strikes me, Marion, like we haven't really seen that disintermediation yet.
in the sector, but I think the sector is ripe for disintermediation through a combination of tech, talent, people. What's your take on that? Because you've got a HR tech company, part people, part tech, marketplace, FMS, FMS, ATS, CRM. What's your take on it? Like you're obviously doing something different, Marion, compared to some of your competitors. What's your take on it? Is it a sector ripe?
Marion Van Happen (42:17.55)
Mm -hmm.
Connor (42:21.424)
for this intermediation or no?
Marion Van Happen (42:24.494)
I would say yes, because that's what we're doing. But it's also always, I always have to explain that we're 2 .6 billion, but we're only with 450 people. So our productivity goes through the roof. And...
Connor (42:42.224)
Yes. Yes.
Marion Van Happen (42:48.366)
The reason why we have these fantastic results is because of our target operating model. And it's tech enables touch. And we have found a balance. And I even think we can, so we grow every year in this productivity rate. And I think we even can do better in this and be more efficient and more
Connor (42:54.64)
Yes.
Marion Van Happen (43:17.358)
and lean organized in we work in scrum teams and in a way of working we we try to make it every day a little bit better and that vision helps me to
Marion Van Happen (43:37.038)
will tell everyone in the company also in the market that we can we can do better with all of us and i think that we we say we get to meet and so we make many mistakes and we do a lot of things right and or results are showing that but i think the market is ready and the company's need of talent need us to speed up
Connor (43:43.728)
Yes.
Connor (43:55.024)
Yeah.
Marion Van Happen (44:06.862)
transformation.
Connor (44:09.872)
Yeah, I agree.
Marion Van Happen (44:10.894)
So, yeah, let's partner up and combine brain power and get it going.
Connor (44:20.308)
That's what I love about you, Marion. You're very straightforward, but also a really amazing visionary. But I think if I look at the publicly quoted competitors of yours in the top 10 in the global HR recruitment sector, Marion, I think they would kill for your EBITDA conversion. I mean, I think it was 49 % from memory, which...
I think is probably the best out of any of them. All right, so.
Marion Van Happen (44:51.95)
It's over 50 actually, but we're very proud of that too.
Connor (44:55.088)
Wow. Okay. I say I, yeah. Yes.
Yeah, it's bloody brilliant. So well done, Marion, to you and your team, of course. But so Marion, unfortunately, our conversation is coming to a close, but I'd like to ask you a question that I ask all of our guests, which is the following. What, if any, Marion, is your prediction or predictions for the future work?
Marion Van Happen (45:23.47)
Well, I told you that our mission is to create a next world of work and I would envision a more increasingly tech enabled touch and especially partner up with one another and create this ecosystem of specialists in staffing and experts in specific fields.
Our company is managing the labour market, so we partner up with many, many, many companies. And I would like to together transform this journey to transform the HR business together.
Connor (46:14.384)
Yeah, Mario, I think there's unlimited possibilities in that respect. And I think it's such an exciting time for leaders like you and leaders like me in our sector, because there's just so many cool things going on, right? Labour scarcity, talent availability, demographic deficit, growing populations, more regulations, more demand, more new jobs, AI. It's it's an incredibly exciting time to be in our sector. And
I love all the things that we've discussed today, Marion. I love your directness, your vision, where your company's going and how you're driving it in the right direction. And of course, we and I wish you every success, Marion, in your role and can't wait to see what happens in this space. So thanks so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.
Marion Van Happen (47:04.878)
Well, thank you Connor for the invitation and we'll of course stay connected and farther up.
Connor (47:11.28)
We will indeed and thank you. And Marion, just in case any of our audience wants to reach out to you and your team to hear more about Headfirst, what's the best way to get in touch?
Marion Van Happen (47:19.406)
Sure.
Marion Van Happen (47:22.862)
You can contact me of course via all kinds of socials. So reach out if you want to know more about the company or me and yeah I'm looking forward to it.
Connor (47:40.368)
Great stuff, Marion. Well, Marion, enjoy the rest of your day and thanks again for your time. Really great to have you on the show. Thank you. Thank you. Marion, that was bloody great. So thank you very much. Really enjoyed it. I'll just turn this bit off.
Marion Van Happen (47:47.31)
Well, thank you.
