Finding Your Way Through Therapy
E.150 Unveiling Strength in Stories of Cultural and Mental Resilience with Lien Doubleday
Celebrating a momentous 150 episodes, we share the microphone with the astute Lien Doubleday, whose 20 years in mental health have sculpted her into a beacon of wisdom. This special episode unfurls the complex tapestry of cultural influence on mental wellness, as Lien navigates the nuanced stories from the heart of Central Massachusetts, adding soul to the science of therapy. Her anecdotes remind us that beyond the struggles often hidden by societal stigmas, lies a community yearning for connection and understanding — a theme that resonates deeply with anyone passionate about human stories.
Imagine living amid a cultural mosaic where acknowledging your own mental health can feel like an insurmountable feat. Our discussion traverses this rocky terrain, confronting the silent battles waged behind closed doors, with tales of immigration, generational trauma, and the delicate balance of upholding tradition while seeking healing. We dissect the readiness required for therapy, challenging the myth of universal solutions, and celebrate the brave individuals who, by seeking professional support, embody remarkable strength.
As we wrap up this landmark session, we send out a heartfelt invitation to join us for an unforgettable event on May 9th, where stories, just like the ones shared today, will continue to light the way.
To attend the event, please visit www.fightthestigma2.eventbrite.com
or www.namicentralmass.org
To work with Lien, visit Serenitycoachingcounseling.com
Celebrating a momentous 150 episodes, we share the microphone with the astute Lien Doubleday, whose 20 years in mental health have sculpted her into a beacon of wisdom. This special episode unfurls the complex tapestry of cultural influence on mental wellness, as Lien navigates the nuanced stories from the heart of Central Massachusetts, adding soul to the science of therapy. Her anecdotes remind us that beyond the struggles often hidden by societal stigmas, lies a community yearning for connection and understanding — a theme that resonates deeply with anyone passionate about human stories.
Imagine living amid a cultural mosaic where acknowledging your own mental health can feel like an insurmountable feat. Our discussion traverses this rocky terrain, confronting the silent battles waged behind closed doors, with tales of immigration, generational trauma, and the delicate balance of upholding tradition while seeking healing. We dissect the readiness required for therapy, challenging the myth of universal solutions, and celebrate the brave individuals who, by seeking professional support, embody remarkable strength.
As we wrap up this landmark session, we send out a heartfelt invitation to join us for an unforgettable event on May 9th, where stories, just like the ones shared today, will continue to light the way.
To attend the event, please visit www.fightthestigma2.eventbrite.com
or www.namicentralmass.org
To work with Lien, visit Serenitycoachingcounseling.com
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. A proud member of the PsychCraft Network, the goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:It's always good to hear that introduction. Hi everyone and welcome to episode 150. Yes, up to 150 of Finding your Way Through Therapy. If you haven't listened to episode 149, it's from Mindstrong Guardians you need to really really listen to it. Justin and Austin do a great job explaining a great organization that works with military and first responders in regards to talking about their mental health. That works with military and first responders in regards to talking about their mental health. But episode 150 will be with Lee N.
Speaker 2:I hope I said her name right I don't want her to yell at me Double day and she is someone that I've met because we're going to be doing an event on May 9th 2024. Hopefully you know we talk about that, I'm pretty sure, in the interview, but she's been in a therapist or someone in the community for 20 years and has served the elderly, homeless, individuals diagnosed with mental illness as well as dual diagnosed. For the past 10 years she's worked with a state agency and she is on the board of directors of the national alliance of mental illness in central mass, called nami for those of you who know it more by the nickname. A lot of what we're going to talk about is how she loves the community and how she wants us to join together. So here is the interview. But before we go to the interview, please listen to this message from freeai dot AI Get freeai.
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Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 150. I'm very excited because I get an exclusive. Today we're going to talk about a lot of different things. More importantly, on May 9th 2024, we're having a very important event that we're going to talk about and the main organizer, who doesn't want any credit. We're going to call her Jane Doe, but really her name is Leigh-Ann Doubleday and I want to make sure I got her name right. So welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy.
Speaker 3:Hi, thank you, Steve. Yeah, I appreciate you letting me come on here. So this is my first podcast or anything, so I'm going to be nervous. I'll let you know that for sure that we were chatting beforehand.
Speaker 2:I've been removed from the worcester community for about five or six years. I used to work at parole. I worked at probation there, helped develop my former non-profit that I worked for. We got a lot of different programs there. I started the drug court there with a with great pride, or the recovery court for those I I hope I didn't offend anyone. It's not meant to be offensive when I say that, but she's very close to the worcester community. But you know it's interesting because we never met. So maybe we you can tell me a little more about yourself and let our audience know about yourself.
Speaker 3:Sure, so my name is Leanne Doubleday. I have worked in the field of mental health and human services for about 21 years now. I started off, I think, just like everyone else in the field. I did the group homes, I worked in dual diagnosis program, I work with a homeless program. Nonprofits went through the whole spiel. I think I went through the same step as anyone else in this field.
Speaker 3:And you know I I've always been passionate about the field. I don't really know why. It's just very fascinating to me. I love the mind, I love to figure out why people are who they are and just kind of figure out. You know, it's not just what's on paper, it's about getting to who they are as a person. So as I got older I just became more interested in just that idea of just getting to know people.
Speaker 3:So currently, you know, I've been working. I work full time at an agency. We serve the severe, chronically mentally ill. We do outreach, we do homeless outreach. I've done homeless outreach with the police, um, through my internship. I really love that, that aspect of going out and meeting people where they're at. And, like I said I, you know I currently do part-time therapy as well. I'm trying to get my license from my lmhc and, um, yeah, I just, you know, I'm just really passionate about mental health, mental awareness and, you know, showing people that's okay, it's okay to talk about this stuff, it's okay to say you're not okay, it's all right. And I think you know I being who I am, I'm shy, but you know, if you talk, if you want to tell and talk to me about mental health, I can go on and on forever because it's very important. So I don't mind putting myself in the spotlight for that stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, it's interesting, as you mentioned being shy, and a couple of things I want to mention on what you said. Common friend Brian Harkins said that you were shy and you told me you're shy now and what I felt is that you're not as shy as you say. You are because you're very engaged and very passionate about mental health and a lot of different things, including the event on May 9th that we're going to have 2024. So I don't buy it for one second, but I also think that we need to. You know, one of the things I feel we lose in this field sometimes is that, as much as I wasn't happy to eat my crumbs in the nonprofit world working in group homes, supported housing, crisis work, parole, jail, probation and everything else in between that I did I think we need to eat those crumbs in order to learn this field. I don't know if you agree, but Absolutely.
Speaker 3:You know my first job I'll name it it was at Advocates. I worked in group home. I was 22, 23 years old, just got out of college, and I can tell you I remember every single person, every single client in that group home. Um, even though it's been that long, because it was my first job, I didn't know much but I loved it and um, I'll throw this out you know my supervisor at the time it's actually one of my best friends now, jeanette and we just remained in contact. It just, it just was such a huge part of my life. So, no, I absolutely agree with that. Even I actually worked for other nonprofits. That it's just you're learning. At that point You're excited and even though you're not making much of anything, it's just that newness to it. So I learned a lot from that stuff, that part of the world, and I think we all have to go through that before we go to the next step in our lives and our careers and things like that.
Speaker 2:I try not to talk about where I started, but in 1998, I was recruited by advocates from Montreal.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:And I worked for that organization for 15 years and you know the importance of working in nonprofits and I'm talking in general here particularly when they're working with people with developmental disabilities, dual diagnosis, severe mental health issues. You learn so much. You learn about respect, you learn to understand and you know that curiosity that I still have to this day. I give a lot of credit to that non-profit, because why is it that way? Why is this going on? Yeah, and but I think non-profit work really helps us in that oh, absolutely, totally agree.
Speaker 2:Um, I don't think I would be where I am without starting off that way, so yeah, I and I wouldn't be in this country, I wouldn't be have two kids, I wouldn't have this home, I wouldn't have the development I think I have in my life now because of non-profit. So for those of you doing your internship or listening to us and all that, well, it's nice to do private practice and do a little more of the posh stuff. Eat your crumbs, because I think that to me, that's what keeps me humble and reminds me of where I came from. And shout out to someone we both know Tara Brennan, if you're listening, miss you but someone we both know from our work in the community. The next question is the same question for everyone who comes on to finding your way through therapy is have you ever been in therapy yourself?
Speaker 3:So I'm stubborn. I've said this earlier. I actually, you know, I'm open to say you know, a couple of years back it was like 2019, I was struggling Combination of work and home life and everything and after probably months and months of going back and forth, I actually did seek a therapist. However, I'm going to say I went one time. He was wonderful, though I would-.
Speaker 2:So he fixed you on the first one. Good for you.
Speaker 3:I would recommend him to anyone because he was just so very kind and I was comfortable. But I was stubborn. I was like you know what? I know this stuff, why I need to go and honestly I didn't return. So I tried it and I did not return. But I think it's just like my upbringing. I'm Vietnamese. We don't talk about mental health in my family. I don't even now I'm in my forties. I've worked in the field for 20 plus years. My family still doesn't know what mental health is. They still don't know what I do. When I talk about it they're like what is this? That's just how they were raised. So for me to kind of reach out for help was not was out of the norm. What I do for living is out of the norm as well. I'm kind of like a black sheep.
Speaker 2:So Well, it's okay to be the black sheep I mean. You know I'd like to talk more about culture, because it does play a factor. You know my father, who knew that I've been wanting to be a therapist since about age 16. My dad would no longer of this world, would always like even on his deathbed looked at me in the eye and said let me get this straight. People pay you for listening to their problems. Yeah, like a little more complicated. Well, that's really what you're doing. I'm like yes, dad, that's all I'm doing. So now there's a picture in my wall of my dad who watches me. So that may be, hopefully, on a spiritual level. He sees what I do now maybe doesn't think I just sit there and listen to people, but I do know culture plays a huge factor and I know that your family immigrated here from Vietnam. You said right.
Speaker 3:Correct. They came here because of the war. You know it was my grandparents, my parents, my siblings were still young, I was not born yet, first born in the United States. So my family and also my cousins, biggest family in Vietnam they lost their home, they lost their businesses, they lost everything. They were forced to leave. So I don't know too much of what happened because they never really much of what happened, because they never really told me what happened. It was kind of like a hush hush type deal. What I do know is, like I said, they lost everything.
Speaker 3:Came to America, my mother, who is no longer here as well. She also lost an older child due to the travels and just no money, illness, things like that. But it was never discussed. You know they came here. What I, being first born here, I didn't know any of that stuff.
Speaker 3:I, my sister, would say I'm spoiled. Because they wanted being first born here, the youngest. They wanted me to be American. You know they wanted me to have that American dream and be the example for everyone. It's a lot of pressure on me.
Speaker 3:So you know me being in the field didn't quite help. They're like what are you doing? You know I was questioned left and right. What are you doing? But yeah, it was a challenge. You know it wasn't understood and still isn't understood in my family.
Speaker 3:But you know, my, my grandparents, they're both passed, they've been through a lot and I remember, thinking back now as I'm older, that the little things I did, I'll say, you know, my, my father, my grandfather, drank a lot. That's what they. He knew he's very, was such a hard worker. I think he struggled and I don't think he knew how to, what to do. And my grandmother, same way, you know, she just cooked, make sure she took care of him, make sure she took care of the house and took care of the house, and that was it, just nothing else was discussed. Um, and I think you know, same way, with my parents, my mom was still alive, same thing, you know, I think she struggled with some depression. She had a lot of medical issues and I don't think she knew how to get help or how to talk about it. And now, looking back, I wish I would have known better. I don't think I knew how to dress as a child.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, I will even challenge you. As you know, I think it's hard to dress it as adults. No, I mean, like you know, like there's certain family members and I'm keeping it vague While they mostly only speak French. I will still keep it vague because translation is very easy now on Google. But you know, I have family members in Quebec that clearly could have used therapy or have, you know, could use therapy to this day. But even as a professional in this field, at 48 years old, I find it very hard to go. You know what uncle, aunt, cousin you should go to therapy? Yeah, I don't know. I mean it's not culturally appropriate. It's getting there but it's not quite there even in Quebec. But I think it's hard, also as an adult. I don't know if you agree, but that certainly, I think is also a challenge.
Speaker 3:It is, you know, even now, like certain family members, like you know, I talk about my sister. You know we, she goes through some stuff and I talk about therapy and you know things to help her, and it's just, it's just a disconnect there, even coming from me, or I try to give her resources outside of me so that way she maybe she just needs some distance for me to talk about and she just, yeah, it's just a a lack of, I hate to say, lack of understanding, but I mean, if you were not raised that way to talk about feelings and that it's okay to feel like crap and talk about it and try to work through it, um, it's not something you can break through and, you know, get it done.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's, and it's also a challenge. All right, I mean, it's, like you know, one of the things that I feel is still stigmatized in this country as well as most of the world. I don't want to speak for the world, I'm not that caught, I'm not knowledgeable, but I think that's saying to someone you know what you need. Therapy has a pejorative statement. It's a very much like oh my god, you think I'm screwed up?
Speaker 2:yeah or what have you. I don't know if that's also the case for your family or in general, but that's my experience with a whole lot of people oh yeah for sure.
Speaker 3:No, I always think about my grandfather. He's just, it was just a tough man. He was just like he ruled with an iron fist but he got things done and I can't imagine him just saying, oh, I need some help. You know it's not realistic. He could have used it Going back. I'm like geez, you know he was a strong man. But imagine if he got just the extra support just to see what was going on back there, you know, just to see if he needed just to talk. That could have done a lot for him. I don't know, but even for me. You know, I'm in the field. I've been in the us, for I was born here. I've been in the field for 20 plus years. I still struggled, going to therapy, that one time when I said I needed it.
Speaker 3:So you know it's a tough one, it is well how I perceive it is.
Speaker 2:You should sell. Say to everyone the person that you saw, because they they secured you in one session, which is a whole lot of what people want to come to my sessions for. Like, how about you cure me in one session, which is a whole lot of what people want to come to my sessions for, like, how about you cure me in one session? Jesus Christ man, all right, now I know a guy, yeah.
Speaker 3:No, I mean yeah, I felt bad afterwards. I thought about I'm like I hope he didn't think I hated him, like I started going the whole story. It's like, oh, he thinks he's horrible.
Speaker 2:I'm like wonderful, it was just um, you have to be ready, you know. I mean anyone like 50 people can say you need some therapy, but you're not ready. You're not ready. I think readiness is key, like you said, and, more importantly, I think it's also being able to say, like you know how, how long, like even going in your mind. I think that what I tell people is like, if you think it's going to be one week, three weeks or three months, I mean I can't really predict that, but I will do my best to keep it within a certain boundary. But I'm, you know, I said I joked around even this week in one of my session. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry I didn't tell you about the wand that's in my, my desk. I'm going to pull it out Now, you'll be fine.
Speaker 2:But I think it's also I think that you said being ready but also realizing that to me, mental health therapy is a lifelong challenge, and it doesn't mean lifelong every week or three times a week, as the psychoanalytics would love it, but it's really about I tell people like I have a client recently who's like I want to go to like every six months, like, okay, you don't seem to be upset. I'm like you're doing fine. If I was concerned I'd tell you I'm not concerned. So you know, even with my therapist, depending on where I'm at in the seasons of my life, I see him every other week too. Sometimes I don't see him for like two to three months and it's perfect for me and it's realizing that therapy also lifting the stigma is to also realize it doesn't have to be weekly, it has to be like whatever works for the client and it's a two-way street.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. It's for me it's a work in progress, you know, because I do like, I do some therapy, I work at a group practice on the side and I always feel the other, that imposter syndrome that comes up and I'm telling them, oh yeah, I should do this or the other.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, looking back at myself, I'm like, oh, don't remember which episode, but around there I did one on imposter syndrome and talked about how you know a little bit of that and I'll always remember a good colleague of mine once said to me you know, when people say, well, you don't know what it is to be a parent, you don't have any kids or whatever, well, I don't have schizophrenia yet Somehow I can work with people with schizophrenia. So it's not about what you've been through but what you've understood, and that helped me really solve a lot of my imposter syndrome. So there's your free therapy for the day.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:The bill will be in the mail. Oh boy, don't worry, I know you worked in a nonprofit. I'm very respectful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll get. The creditors will come after me, you'll be waiting for.
Speaker 2:But no, you know, I think that the, you know, the culture plays a huge factor and even, like you know, we we talked a little bit about worcester, massachusetts. You know there's a there's a slew of cultures in worcester and I think that people don't understand how diverse Worcester can be. You know, and I think that even in a Worcester type of situation, what I think has helped lift a lot of the stigma is a little bit of having access to these resources. You know, and I don't want to drop names because I know I'll forget someone and I'll get an email from Dave McMahon. You forgot this or whatever, and I love Dave. I'm not picking on Dave, but you know, I think that that also plays a factor. I think that where you live is also something that really helps reach out or not in treatment, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I mean, if you're living in a small town you're not going to get the resources or see what's out there. For sure I'll throw out Worcester. You know there's a big Vietnamese community in Worcester and I think it's progressing. I always say it's the younger kids, the younger generation that are bringing the mental health awareness into the forefront, are being more open to talking about it. For myself, though, it's just a handful of us that work in the field. You know, I, where I work, I'm the only, I'm the only Asian. Let's just say that by going to a meeting, I'm going to be the only one in the community talking about having a therapist. I think I know maybe one or two in the Worcester community. That's Asian, don't even cut it to Vietnamese, just Asian in general. So I, you know, I tell people I'm still learning. I was born here, so I don't speak the language very clearly, so I'm trying to learn better. But even seeing me and that I look like them in some way encourages them to reach out to me and they do feel more comfortable with me.
Speaker 3:So there's another therapist. I'll throw his name out. His name is Mia Lee. I've known him for years. He's an older gentleman. He's been around in the nonprofit world. He's always trying to do something for the community, for the Vietnamese community, and he's always trying to get me on board and I'm like, well, I am on board, I just have to figure out what to do exactly. You know, it's not many of us out there. Mental health is such a huge thing and if you try to even cut it down to mental health awareness for the Vietnamese community, that's a whole other ballpark and other things that we have to put in place. But yeah, that's a whole another conversation there.
Speaker 2:So I think that you also need to keep in consideration and this is where I feel some of these programs run by certain groups and I'm not going to. You can figure it out if you guys are smart. You can figure it out. If not, email me. The Vietnamese community is vastly different than a South Korean community, than it is from a Chinese community to a Japanese community or Malaysian community. I know that we don't have as high numbers in those communities in worcester, for example, worcester mass but at the same time it's a different type of need and I think it's sometimes loss in this, like oh, we'll help all the asian culture by doing this and that's so elitist, if you ask me.
Speaker 3:But that could be my two cents yeah, I think it's you know people, I think people mean well. But people also. You're so fucking politically correct, it's you know people, I think people mean well but people also.
Speaker 2:You're so fucking politically correct. It's unbelievable, no people do mean.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I do. I feel like people have good hearts. I'm going to be very naive. I'm very naive when I say that and I know that.
Speaker 2:That's not naive. People do that do the best they can with what they have, that's 100% accurate.
Speaker 3:I think people just need to be a little bit more aware, though, and more mindful.
Speaker 2:But, like I said, people mean well, they say things, and I'm going to stop, all right, so let's maybe just skip a little bit of that. Okay, we're going to go there and I'll go back to culture a little bit, because, you know, one of the things that is very important is culture for me, because when I'm born and raised in quebec, my first language is french and if you ever doubt it, make me say th words and you'll hear it. But all joking aside, when I hear like, oh, you know, like some people like do they say well, oh, you, you you're from canada, you speak english, actually it's my second language and people don't believe me. Oh, but culture from quebec is the same as ontario.
Speaker 2:I'm like no, nova scotia is different in new brunswick from Quebec is the same as Ontario. I'm like no, nova Scotia is different than New Brunswick, nevermind Quebec, who only well, not only, but mostly speaks French from an Albertan culture that has a lot more English speakers. And then you go to Vancouver and you have a large Chinese population. That's way different than the Indian and the Muslim culture that you'll find mostly in Ontario and Quebec. So we got to be very mindful that we can't just put everyone in the same box and say, hey, this is how it's done.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely yeah. I think, like I said, it's a challenge. I think I'm going to say it again people mean well, but it's very difficult.
Speaker 2:If you don't know, you don't live, that you know if you live a certain way you're surrounded by certain people, you're not going to know what's out there and you're going to read about it. You're going to try to do better, but you don't me. Who was not well informed in the Jewish community when I moved here. I had a client who, when doing some I was doing some DBT work the client was adamant about on Saturday, from Friday night to Saturday you can't contact me and I couldn't wrap my head around it until it was explained to me by her and other individuals from the Jewish community about. You know the importance of all that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know, obviously I've learned, and I think that you talk about people mean. Well, I think we we need to focus on meaning well and learning, because I can't know everything. I still don't know anything. I feel like I'm, as I grow older, I'm dumber and dumber in a good way, but no, I think that the cultural curiosity needs to be there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm getting better too. I think I'm not scared to ask questions anymore. I rather know it than me assume and then just say something completely off base. So, yeah, I usually, if I don't hear it, it's something that I'm like what is that? I will ask oh, what does that mean? Or I'll go up to someone and be like oh, what is that? Can you explain that to me? I'm getting better, I think, as I get older. Same thing as being older, yeah, well.
Speaker 2:I think it's older evolution of individuals, but evolution of the community too, and you know, it's a little bit of what you know, I feel like even employers starting to understand that keeping the mental health, physical health of your staff is so important. I think that cultural evolution has occurred. I think that COVID-19 kind of forced it a little bit. I think there's some regression going on. But that's my two cents. Do you feel like, do you think that we need to put more emphasis for employers to really pay attention to employees' wellness?
Speaker 3:Oh, absolutely. I always laugh with this and that's actually one of the first reasons why I did the May 9th actually was actually for my friends in the field. That's how it started off. You know, we go to different agencies, different places. They have all these signs up. Oh, you know self care and this, that and the other. But yeah, it's nice, it's nice to see those signs, nice to talk about it. But is it implemented? Is it encouraged, um? Do we? Are we given that time to do that? Are we frowned upon if we take a mental health day, things like that? I think it's getting better, but I think could be, it could be much better than the way it is. I'll keep us that, especially in this field.
Speaker 3:I mean, I, like I said, mental health, we, we, we do vicarious trauma. We hear it every single day. I'm used to it and I say that I don't know. That's normal to say, I'm used to that, but I say that very often. You know, um, but there's some days where you know it does hit a little bit hard. I do second guess or I think about certain things that I've heard or have happened and I just move forward. I don't even take a step to be like, oh, something's wrong there, and I think sometimes work doesn't get that. You know it's, um, it's a long time coming. Um, I think sometimes work doesn't get that, you know it's, it's a long time coming. I think, like I said, people just need to have conversations more with their employees, see what's going on and just have, yeah, a little more in depth conversation. But what's happening in people's lives.
Speaker 2:Encourage employers to do that, because I you know, working with first responders personally. That's one of the things that I encourage from you know, and just give, shout out to my friend and who's been on my podcast many times, jay Ball, who's like you, don't need stripes in order to be supportive of other employees that you work with. And you know, ironically, he now has stripes. But at the end of the day, what I like about that message is that it's not only the employer's responsibility, it's also each other's responsibility to say something. Do you think that we need to support each other a little more as well as, kind of put I'm not talking about striking, but also put the pressure on? You know?
Speaker 2:I turned to HR because usually they're the ones who take care of that human resources. Do we need to, as even employees, not only support each other but also, kind of like, have a system where we can go to HR and say, hey, you know what? Our program went through blank, and I don't want to wish anything on anyone, so I'm just going to say blank and it was pretty hard on two of the seven members and I know that they do the crisis intervention stress management or critical incident stress management. Debriefing at first responder world. But do you think we can find something similar in the workplace environment for different individuals?
Speaker 3:me and my coworkers. We're very close, we have each other, like we'll call each other or text each other. Something's going on. We go right to each other. There's no hesitation to do that. But I do think it starts, you know, I think we do it. I think we do it kind of on our own time as well, like we don't want to interrupt our work. We want to make sure we're not like taking up too much of our time to do that with each other. It's kind of this weird thing where you know, okay, we just witnessed something, we just heard something horrible, but yet we're hesitating on taking 10 minutes of a break to just decompress and just be like, okay, you know, let's get together because we got to do another visit, we got to go and meet another client. I think it's it's going to take a lot of steps. I mean, like I said, every agency, I'm going to say again they, they do their stuff, care, trainings, they do their boards, they hang it up.
Speaker 3:But I don't know there's still disconnect. I feel there, this is what I'm gonna say, my end. I know for myself I'm a community person, I work in the community, I'm boots on the ground type deal. But I think when you talk about upper management leadership, they don't do that type of work. Um, they're not boots on the ground. So it's a little bit of a disconnect where they don't know what we see on a daily basis. They don't know the stories we hear. I get clients that call me sometimes 20, 30 times a day because they're struggling, but upper management leadership don't quite get that part of it either. So there is a disconnect there and I think there has to be something done. I'm not sure what, but it's always been that way.
Speaker 2:So it's a struggle, you, I'm not sure what, but it's always been that way. So it's a struggle, you know. I think that you're absolutely correct. I mean that's what I liked about my the old agency used to work for and I remember, and rest in peace, bill Taylor. But Bill Taylor, who ran an organization called advocates, I'd regularly see him in the community. He was the founder and CEO, but he would come into group homes, he would go into supported housing programs he would go into. He came to our crisis team, he came to the outpatient and did he probably have as much experience as he did when he started? Of course not, because now he has other things, but he never forgot where he came from and I think that's important for people to know, not only in our field, you know.
Speaker 2:I think that, having a vice president of, I don't want to pick on any particular company we'll pick a defunct company, we'll say Toys R Us, go to Toys R Us and kind of see what's going on boots on the ground, and maybe that would help. And I think that also like, oh, you're here on a Sunday, you don't seem so good, I'm having trouble, my family da, da da, but no one can come in, and maybe having those small conversations which again Bill Taylor used to have with us was really really beneficial to hear, and I think that can happen in big corporations too.
Speaker 3:If you ask me yeah, I'm a big person on just being humble Sometimes I'll think, oh, I did a great job. I know I'm doing. I'm like wait a minute, you know, there's a lot of people that helped me there. There's a reason why I'm able to do this, that and the other. It's not that I don't give myself props for things. It's just that I'm mindful of how I got here, how I'm able to do things, and I'm a big person on thanking people like I'm overly thank people, but but it's sincere, it's genuine. I mean I want to make sure people are heard. If you have helped me with something or you have given me something, I want to make sure you know I'm thankful for that. So I think that's, you know, growing older too and just being in the field. I'm getting better at that. When I was younger, whatever, I was just doing my thing kind of in my own world, and now I'm more mindful, like I said, looking around who's around me, why I able to do this?
Speaker 2:why am I here? So getting better at that? It is a balance, right. I mean, I think that we need to remain humble. What brought us to this field and stuff like that? But also, you know, there's nothing wrong with doing this once in a while. Yeah, you know, um, I think that if you run around telling people I'm a life savior, maybe perhaps that's a little weird. Yeah, but at the end of the day, it's like one of the things that I fight.
Speaker 2:A lot of my first responders and a lot of my clients give yourself credit for what you did, but stay humble, because it's okay to do both. And I think that, as a practicing Buddhist, I always talk about the middle ground, and I think that that's what employers don't understand. Is that someone's giving you 50 60 hours because there's a project to be done or short staff or whatever. On the other side, it's not just the money that they're after, it's also kind of like a little bit of recognition and maybe like, hey, you know what, next week, take tuesday off just to get back on your feet, so to speak, speak and give yourself a break. And employees. Sometimes and I'm not picking on any particular employers here I think they fail to realize that most people yes, we do it for the money, but there's an intrinsic reward for lack of a better word from the work we do.
Speaker 3:Oh, of course I'm not going to say, oh, it doesn't make me feel good when I help someone or when someone tells me thank you, you know, I made some type of difference in their lives. Of course I feel good about it. It's not the main reason why I do it. I generally do enjoy solving I don't want to say solving problems. I like to put pieces together and then something comes out of it and then they help someone. That's amazing, you know, it's yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that no one goes into our particular field to say that we're going to be millionaires, except for a few. And they get. You know it's hard, hard reality. But you know that's why, like for me, I like to say sometimes that I have helped a lot of people, and this is how I keep myself humble. I've helped a ton of people. However, I have not changed a human being in my life. I've given them tools so they can make changes in their own lives, but I have never changed a human being. So this is my way of staying humble.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. I tell my therapy clients too. I say I'm not doing anything. I'm here, I'm listening, I'm hearing what you're saying, but you're the one who's changing things. You're the one who's telling me that you're progressing. You're doing this, that and the other. I did not do that you did. I might just be lending you an ear and maybe some suggestions or just bantering back and forth, but at the end of the day, if you're not doing it, nothing will change. So, yeah, that's a good reminder for people too.
Speaker 3:People, you know, I think people tend to have difficulty giving themselves credit. It's not with everyone we, it's all with everyone. We're all like that. We tend to. Most of us not all of us, but a lot of us, including myself. You know, we don't give ourselves pats on the back and I don't like to talk about my stuff. I get a little like shy, I'll mention that and the shyness is there. I get uncomfortable. But you know, that's the whole thing about learning, about just appreciating what we've done and staying humble but saying, okay, I did do a good job.
Speaker 2:It's okay to see that every now and then I think that that's the balance that I tell people is the important to do. You know, and in you know. You see that, especially in our field, but you also see that in the first responder world, in my opinion too, is that you know they get an award for saving a life. The guy go yeah, you know, and I get that, you got to do that a little bit. You don't need to go like, yep, I've saved the life, I'm the best, and it's you know to do that a little bit. You don't need to go like, yep, I've saved a life, I'm the best. And I think that with employers in particular too, it's finding that balance constantly. It's not about just you want to increase revenue as an employer, protect your employees' mental health and physical health. That eight hours loss of manpower, or whatever the hell they call it this week is going to pay off 27, 30, 45 hour plus in work hours, because people are going to be like, wow, they really cared for me.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I think that that's loss and I think that for us as humble human beings and I think you're right that's encouraging our community. I also think that it's important to say I do a good job or I do something well, because sometimes you won't hear it from your colleagues and it's not because colleagues are ill-intended, it's just like. You know, I don't, I don't see, I don't know about you, but I don't. You know, working in a private practice, I don't have anyone knocking on the door by the way you're doing a good job.
Speaker 2:They don't care, they just don't. I mean not in a bad way. This is not a picking on my clients, I'm just saying no one goes by the way. You're doing a great job. I'd be like don't fucking interrupt, leave.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's different. Yeah, I don't get that as well. I don't hear it as often.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, just reminding yourself too, that you know when you dismiss it you may forget. So for me there's also kind of like a moment where I have a few clients, like per month, that go. You know that I was really helpful and I kind of remind myself okay, I'm still hopeful, because I think it's again the balance of not just going I know everything versus not knowing, and knowing anything versus you know there's always going to be something in the middle ground. So I remind myself, you know, and shout out to my clients who said you know that once in a while they're like you know, you've really helped me. That means the world to me more than any fucking paycheck I ever get yeah, no, I totally agree.
Speaker 3:Um, every now and then that hits you when you hear it, yeah, it does, hit, does, hit you hard and you do, you know, makes you feel good and proud of what you do, so you, know Well.
Speaker 2:I think it might be a good place to transition to a little bit of the event on May 9, 2024 in Worcester, Sure. This is the second annual one from what I understand.
Speaker 3:Yes. So last year I decided randomly I'm like you know I'm gonna do something, didn't have just random I, very random person. I was like you know what, I don't have anyone helping me what I had this idea. And last year the focus is on peer recovery and mental health and substance recovery, and I had friends I knew in the community. I was like you know what? This is what I'm doing. Do you want a panel? Sure, sure. So we got a whole group together and money came out of donations from friends, family and my pocket.
Speaker 3:And it was the first year, so I didn't know what I was doing. I'm just going for the best day by day and keeping this in mind, I do it after work and this is not work related, I'm just myself. So I did everything after hours on the weekends and it just kept building. You know I, at first I was like maybe this won't work and I just kept building. You know I, at first I was like maybe this won't work and I just kept building. There was more interest and we ended up having it and it was a good showing. Um, everyone was so supportive. Even people that didn't know me well were there to help. I didn't have a committee. I didn't have people saying, you know, you don't do this, that, and the other people saw me like, okay, do you want me to stand here? Do you want me to help you with the food? Like people were just coming together and it was amazing. However, after that I said I would never do it again because it was so exhausting, mentally exhausting, I was tired, but, um November of last year crept up and I was like, hmm, you know, let's figure it out again.
Speaker 3:And, um, you know, last year was a rough year for myself. A lot of my co-workers, um my friends, and I wanted to do something for them. So last year was more about the community and the clientele that I serve, but this year I wanted to be more for, like, my friends and the people that I work closely who are out in the community doing this type of work. So initially it was something for, like, counselors and community workers. I threw in first responders because the last couple years I started having an interest in learning more about the responder world. I did part of my internship doing homeless outreach with part of the CIT team in Worcester. I've had great relationships with the CIT team in Worcester, learning about them what they do and them taking the time to do what they do, and it sparked some interest in me so I decided you know what first responders and mental health workers and human service workers were different, but I'm gonna try to mesh us together somehow and not insult any particular group. Um, I think it's actually meshing pretty well. You know, we have a lot in common, more than people think we do. Um, there's a difference, obviously, but I think you know, at the end of the day, we're people, uh, we, we see and we hear things that are very hard and we keep moving forward.
Speaker 3:So May 9th that's how May 9th came about. I just want to do something for my friends. That's how it came about. I want to do something for them to realize it's okay to say you're not doing well. I want to find resources for them to go to. I'm stubborn. I said that I want it out of the box resources. I have, like, an animal therapy place coming. I have a yoga place coming, just things that I would do if I felt kind of weird saying I want to go to therapy, choose an alternative, do a holistic, out of the box thing. So may 9th kind of came out with that. You know, I just wanted to do something for my friends honestly I know you have a massage therapist coming also yeah, yeah, melanie's coming.
Speaker 3:We have just a variety of different things. We have specific first responder vendors as well. We have a couple of veterans, particular specific vendors, therapy agencies. So I'm trying to it can have everyone, but I'm trying to make it as best of around good, good variety as possible.
Speaker 2:Someone who's been on my podcast before Mr Hanks, who talked about his story and he had a documentary will be there. I can't wait to meet, to meet him face to face.
Speaker 2:I met him on my podcast, uh, once, and just an amazing guy and um, yes, I called him mister, because if you hear his story and go back to my podcast but go to the documentary about first responders in crisis, he'll tell you a whole lot. So it's about respect, it's not not about you know anything else. And I think that first responders, just for the record, if you ever want to have, we'll have a private conversation, not obviously here. Having worked with them for 20 plus years in diverse, pretty much every possible way you can imagine, I like what my old colleague said they're social workers with guns.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I yeah, you know CIT guys, but anyway, yeah, I agree because, you know, like I said I did, I want to start off with just me and my like. I want to do it for my friends. I have a couple of people that I consider close to friends who are on the CAT team or have been on the CAT team or have done extra in the police department. I thought of them, you know. I've heard of their struggles, like day in and day out, their boots on the ground. I've seen their interactions with the community and it's amazing. You know, I know, please, there's a lot of scrutiny right now, but these, these are the people that I know and I've worked closely with and I see what they've done and how they treat people and I can't say anything else negative about that. So there's a couple of people I'm not gonna name names, but I thought about them as well. I wanted them to be able to have a voice.
Speaker 3:When I started this, initially I wanted Worcester to be involved, whether it's fire department or police, but then, the more I went on it's not easy to have an event talk about mental health in your town. Now that I think back, I'm like what was I thinking? But you know, I think even though I don't have any locals on the panel, I think it's still going to make a big difference to hear like Brian speak or to hear, you know, john Monahan, who was the chief of police, speak. I think it's going to make a big difference. And even if they're not going to say that they're there to get the help, if they do come they can walk around and see what's out there. It's going to be confidential, they can see what's out there, talk to a couple people and grab a couple brochures or resources and, you know, hopefully that makes some type of difference.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll be there, obviously, and that's part of why I'm promoting it to myself, and you'll definitely be able to find my table. I will talk about my group that I do with. Hey, steve, I got a guy I need, needs help or a woman who needs help because it's not gender neutral.
Speaker 2:Like both men and women work in the field and I say guy by default, so please understand and I think that seeing tables, seeing that there's an openness to getting the help, and all that, I think that that's key for first responders to hear too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I emphasize that. You know I wanted especially selling vendors or tables there, with people behind the tables talking to you. I actually I've been emphasizing having a table just separate on its own with brochures and information. So if you did not want to encounter anyone and talk to one, walk up, take a brochure or take a picture of what you see there and no one's going to notice. You're just going to go there and do it and I want to be as mindful as possible on just. You know, if you're not comfortable, how can I make it to be a little more comfortable so you can get that resource and maybe it will help you somehow. So that's my goal.
Speaker 2:So yeah, Well, I'll join your goal when I'm there on again. Give the dates.
Speaker 3:Sure, it's May 9th. It's at the St Bernard's church in Worcester on 236 Lincoln street. It's got a. We're going to open the doors at five for the vendors. We're going to have some comfort dogs there, all the vendors, some food, and then we're going to start the panel discussion around 6 30. There's plenty of parking. We're able to get the church parking lot and the two parking lots next door so there'll be signs up, so there'll plenty of parking, no street parking needed.
Speaker 3:I don't even think we need street parking that day, um. But yeah, it's a free event and, like I said, it's just to support the community, support your friends, whoever's in the field, and it's open for everyone. And I think that what's awesome about it, too, is we have resources in worcester, but a lot of the vendors are outside of worcester, so it's a big variety of around the state, um. So if you didn't want to get help in the worcester area one little distance, we have places out further, um, you know that you don't feel like, oh, someone's gonna see me, someone's gonna know me, um, so I did really try to get a good variety of people there well, I can't wait.
Speaker 2:I saw the list and if you go to my Facebook page, you will see all the vendors that are listed, among other things. I'm very excited to be there. Can't wait to meet you face to face and you know, I'll see Brian. Haven't seen Brian in a long time. I'm gonna get to see to see Keith, which is going to be cool. I know a lot of the vendors and hopefully it'll be people I know, but, more importantly, if I can help or offer resources to one individual while I'm there, it's way beyond what I hope I can do. I really think that that's what people that I saw on the list. They're not looking to save the world, they're looking to save one person and, to quote, I believe it's Aristotle save one looking to save the world. They're looking to save one person and, to quote, I believe, is Aristotle save one person, save the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I think I had said that's something else too. Even if I said even if five people came to this event and that was all I got and one person got help from it, then that's the point, isn't it? It is the point at the end of the day, so I'm okay with that.
Speaker 2:All I want to be I think we all want is a community that is healthier, knows that mental health resources are available if they don't need them right away, which is great, and if we're able to move forward in that people remember that, then I think that it's beyond the gift that you're giving with the second annual event, which I truly appreciate, that you're doing oh, thank you.
Speaker 3:And, like I said, it wouldn't happen without people volunteering their time. This is people just saying I want to do it. You know, I just asked and they said, sure, why not? So all the panelists that we have on board, all the vendors a couple of my friends are coming there just to support, just to help me guard the door and the food, like this is. It wouldn't happen without people saying you know, I'm going to take my time and do this, I believe in it. It wouldn't happen without them. So I appreciate everyone's support in this too.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe it's time to be less humble and accept. As we said earlier in the podcast, thanks to you, this event will occur, and don't forget that either, and I know that that's uncomfortable for you.
Speaker 2:I'm going to shut you off right now. I thought she was going to hang up actually, but she didn't. But so if you want to see her face change on YouTube, it'll be available on YouTube. She was all smiles and I gave her credit and her face. But from the bottom of my heart, not even knowing you, but knowing the work you've done, where you've worked and everything else that you've done, thank you, and you know it's okay for you to accept the thank you. All joking aside, I will contribute in any way, shape I can, shape or form I can, because I truly believe in that and that's, you know. It's a tribute not only to you but the community work that you do. So if it's hard for you to be humble and accept it for yourself, accept it for the community. So thank you.
Speaker 3:That's a good way to put it actually, so I feel a little better when you say it that way. I can't say anything against that.
Speaker 2:So I appreciate that All right, so she's going to have a new therapist. It'll be me, but please join us on May 9th. I'll be there. I'm looking forward to it and thank you for your time.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Steve, for having me on.
Speaker 2:Well, this concludes episode 150. Lian. Thank you so much. Really appreciate you. Come on May 9th 2024, worcester. It's going to be a great time. I can't wait. But episode 151 is Courtney Romanowski, who will be taking over as the host. So I can't wait to hear what she's going to talk about and I hope you join me then.
Speaker 1:Please like, subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful and, as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.