Finding Your Way Through Therapy
E.152 Unveiling the Art of Connection Through Dr. Chris Gordon's Experiences And The Mental Men
Dr. Chris Gordon's openness about his personal struggles with anxiety and depression amidst his professional journey adds an irreplaceable depth to our latest podcast episode. As we laugh and learn with the Mental Men, Dennis Sweeney, Andy Kang, Robert Cherney, and Patrick Rice, we pay tribute to Dr. Gordon's contributions both as a guiding presence and as an advocate for minimizing medication dependency when possible. Our shared stories not only encapsulate the challenges and victories in the realm of mental health but also underscore the power of empathy and lived experience in forging connections with those we aim to support.
Peeling back the layers of what it means to provide emotional support, we revisit the basics of human connection and dive into the world of healing. Tools like the wheel of emotions and EMDR are brought into the spotlight, revealing their roles in guiding first responders and others through the maze of their minds. Humor finds its place as a healing balm, and we celebrate the simple acts of camaraderie, such as a round of golf, that sometimes offer the strongest lifeline amidst life's tempests.
Dr. Chris Gordon's openness about his personal struggles with anxiety and depression amidst his professional journey adds an irreplaceable depth to our latest podcast episode. As we laugh and learn with the Mental Men, Dennis Sweeney, Andy Kang, Robert Cherney, and Patrick Rice, we pay tribute to Dr. Gordon's contributions both as a guiding presence and as an advocate for minimizing medication dependency when possible. Our shared stories not only encapsulate the challenges and victories in the realm of mental health but also underscore the power of empathy and lived experience in forging connections with those we aim to support.
Peeling back the layers of what it means to provide emotional support, we revisit the basics of human connection and dive into the world of healing. Tools like the wheel of emotions and EMDR are brought into the spotlight, revealing their roles in guiding first responders and others through the maze of their minds. Humor finds its place as a healing balm, and we celebrate the simple acts of camaraderie, such as a round of golf, that sometimes offer the strongest lifeline amidst life's tempests.
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. A proud member of the PsychCraft Network, the goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your host, steve Bisson.
Speaker 2:It's not always easy to find a good introduction, but this one's pretty good. Welcome to episode 152. If you haven't listened to episode 151 yet, I encourage you to do so because it was my co-host, courtney Romanowski. She had a great interview with someone that she felt that was really and I loved the interview personally. Maya Benatar, I hope you enjoyed the interview as much as I did. But episode 152. I can't believe I'm up. 152.
Speaker 2:Getting close to the anniversary, we'll be with the Mental Men and you've heard of Mental Men before. They've been on a few episodes. I think we're on like episode number three or four now and we're getting a special guest and hopefully he will join the Mental Men on a regular basis. His name is Dr Chris Gordon. I call him Chris, but that is officially his title. I worked with him on a nonprofit organization for several years. Really, I hope I get to share a story. He probably saved my career, probably saved me. Hope I can get to share that. I don't know if I'll have time because you know we always end up talking a whole lot. He graduated Antioch College and University of Maryland School of Medicine, residency in psychiatry at Mass General Hospital in Massachusetts. Currently associate professor at the Psychiatric Harvard Medical School. He's director emeritus, worked for advocates and has about 50 years of practice in psychiatry and psychotherapy. That's Chris Gordon, obviously. You know Bob Turney, you know Andy Kang, you know Dennis Sweeney and, of course, pat Rice, which I believe will be his 10th episode.
Speaker 2:So it's going to be a great interview, I'm sure. So here is the interview, but first here's a message from freedai dot AI Get freeai. Yes, you've heard me talk about it previously in other episodes, but I'm going to talk about it again because get freeai is just a great service. Imagine being able to pay attention to your clients all the time, instead of writing notes and making sure that the notes going to sound good and how are you time. Instead of writing notes and making sure that the note's going to sound good, and how are you going to write that note, and things like that. Getfreeai liberates you from making sure that you're writing what the client is saying, because it is keeping track of what you're saying and will create, after the end of every session, a progress note. But it goes above and beyond that. Not only does it create a progress note, but it goes above and beyond that. Not only does it create a progress note. It also gives you suggestions for goals, gives you even a mental status if you've asked questions around that, as well as being able to write a letter for your client to know what you talked about. So that's the great great thing. It saves me time, it saves me a lot of aggravation and it just speeds up the progress note process.
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Speaker 2:Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 152. You know, this is great because we're going to have the Mental Men Plus, and what I mean by the Mental Men Plus is it's going to just be the Mental Men, but the next time we have another episode. But we have our regular guests andrew kang, dennis sweeney, bob churney and pat rice, all back for a third episode, except pat is on total of 10 episodes now. So he is now my guest. He's my bob newhart to my david letterman and for you young people, you have no freaking clue what I just said, and that's fine. You can just pretend you go. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, and if Google it.
Speaker 2:But, more importantly, there's someone that I want to start off with a tribute, because this is something that he did for me in the beginning of my career that he forgot, probably, and that's okay if he remembers great, but this man, dr Chris Gordon, worked with me at a nonprofit organization for many years. He worked there for many years himself. But about six months into my career as a crisis clinician, one of my clients that I had seen about 45 days before that unfortunately killed his wife. And this is so long ago. There was two papers there was a morning paper and there's an afternoon paper and in the afternoon paper they said we know who saw him last. It was this clinician and we're going to sue that agency and that person for everything that they have. And I have six months into my career at this point so and I drove this individual to a respite and I had worked hard to get him the services but unfortunately he did what he did.
Speaker 2:45 days later, that friday, I get a call from chris and chris says hey, steve, you want to go for lunch? And in my head I'm like I'm getting fired. So I'm like sure, I'll bring my pager, I'll bring my pdf, and that's how, again, how old this story is. And Chris like no, you don't need to bring that, just bring yourself. So we go to eat at a little restaurant uh, that no longer exists on route nine, and we chit chat me and Chris had never had really a one-on-one. We knew each other but we never had a one-on-one. And at the end of the lunch he says where are you going now, steve? I said I'll go back to the crisis team. Chris says, oh, I'm going to see a few outpatient clients if I make it. And I'm like, what do you mean if I make it? He's like well, you know, maybe there'll be traffic, maybe there'll be some emergency I got to go through or maybe something's going to here.
Speaker 2:But ultimately, I looked at Chris, I'm like what do you mean? He's like Steve, you can't predict what's going to happen in 15 minutes, never mind what's going to happen in 45 days. We have your back. I will always support you. You did everything right clinically, don't worry about it, because he could clearly tell I was nervous. But basically I continued my career with the confidence that I'll always have my medical director behind me and someone who trusted me and knew I'd make good decisions. So, chris, this is a tribute to you, because maybe you don't remember that story, but you made a huge difference in my career. So, chris Gordon, welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy and the Mental Men.
Speaker 4:Thank you, steve. Thank you for remembering that. Honestly, I don't remember it, but I'm touched that you do and I'm so glad the good Chris was there for you at a time of great need.
Speaker 2:I didn't know there was a bad Chris oh yeah, there's a crowd in here, steve. Well, we'll talk about multiple personality disorders later, but how about you introduce yourself, chris? Maybe people who don't know who you are maybe you can introduce yourself.
Speaker 4:Okay, so my name is Chris Gordon. I'm a psychiatrist. I trained in the 1970s at Mass General. I had the honor of working for Advocates Incorporated in Framingham for about 25 or 30 years. I've had a ton of therapy myself. I experienced a lot of very distressing anxiety as a child. It blossomed again in adulthood. So I've had a lot of psychotherapy. I even had psychoanalysis. I've taken medicine which I've found very helpful, and I've loved being a psychiatrist because I relate a lot to the people I serve and there's a quality about it of paying forward that touches me quite deeply forward that touches me quite deeply. And most recently in my life I've been challenged by Parkinson's disease for the last few years and as a complication of Parkinson's or something like that, I was revisited by depression and anxiety. The goals of depression and anxiety showed up again, so that led me to go back into therapy. So I'm currently in therapy and I love the invitation to join the Mental Men for a conversation. I'm a great admirer of my fellow mental men and really look forward to the conversation.
Speaker 2:Well, chris, welcome. And you know I can't tell you how happy I was. I can't remember. I think it was Dennis who said, hey, chris would like to join us. And I'm like, yeah, when. And there was no hesitation on anyone's part, including myself, and so happy to have you here, thank you, thank you on anyone's part, including myself, and so happy to have you here. Thank you, thank you, and all of us, I think, at some point saw you in the community and or worked with you as advocates. Yeah, and you're someone who's really well known, not only for advocates but also for advocating for individuals who probably wouldn't have had anyone else to advocate for them. So that's another tribute to you, chris. Thank you, steve. How about the rest of you introduce yourself Now? It's going to be boring because you know Chris did the whole big presentation. Now you guys go next. How about we start with Andy?
Speaker 3:Hi, I'm Andy Kang Been here before, happy to be back. I also trained at Advocates under all these wonderful gentlemen, including Dr Gordon, and I bet we could all share several Chris had my Back stories.
Speaker 1:You may not remember any of them, Chris.
Speaker 3:But I remember one very specifically. I won't retell it, but just suffice to say I've never forgotten it. It was also at the very beginning of my career, so I know you've touched a lot of people. Even in my brief time training at advocates, it was very clear um packed on everybody in there, um, and I won't forget.
Speaker 2:Appreciate it, andy how about we go with? Uh, mr chern, next, bob, would you go ahead?
Speaker 5:Sure, hopefully I won't break up. The Wi-Fi has been a little funky lately, but we'll get through. I'm Bob Cherney. I am a psychologist and I have actually been doing a couple of different jobs most of my career one including advocates for 23 years now, and it's kind of hard to believe, but it's been a wonderful experience and I've loved the people that we serve and I've loved the people that I have the pleasure and the honor to work with. And I have to say something because, chris, you always did something that I always admired, especially, I think, the longer you were in the field. You started saying maybe we should minimize medicine for some of these folks, in the sense of some people get a lot of medicine prescribed to them and it crosses itself and sometimes hurts the clients. So I've always respected that and you know I agree with you regarding how empathy comes from lived experience.
Speaker 1:I've had a lot of it and.
Speaker 5:I feel honored and I appreciate your honesty I always have and your soul, so I don't want to get too far into this. I really do respect and admire you and I always have so you're one of the people who brought me in, so I appreciate that. Thank you, yeah, yeah, and I also have a private practice now and I'm still rolling along. So that's where I stand right now.
Speaker 2:Well, continuing these tributes to Chris Gordon. How about we go with Dennis Sweeney as next?
Speaker 6:Yes, Good morning folks. So I'm a licensed mental health counselor and I have a now virtual practice that I see primarily individuals. I would say that my focus tends to be on recovery, but recovery in a broad sense, but a more specific focus on addiction and recovery, specific focus on addiction and recovery. And I also run a group and I'm really glad to be back here. And, chris, I won't recount but I will reinforce that there was a specific situation actually more than one, but one specific situation that you really had my back and I've been grateful ever since.
Speaker 4:Glad to hear it, Dennis. What a back it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in French that means something different. So I will share you off there what that means in French, but last but certainly not least, and on his 10th episode, mr Pat Rice.
Speaker 7:Thanks. I actually love doing these podcasts and I was excited to have this reconnection with Chris because I had collaborated over the years with you and your remarkable wife, julie too, both when she was at Regis she had me doing some lecturing there and whatever, but I've always enjoyed your grand rounds and all of that.
Speaker 7:And you know you're one of those. You're one of the few extraordinary psychiatrists that I've actually met in my lifetime. You know it's a special, it's been a special few that just, I think, really get the human condition really well and I really loved him Much like you. Half my I've been in practice probably 35 years or more now and half of that practice I was in therapy. I was on medicine when I needed it too early on for a lot of the stuff that I was dealing with, and so you know it's like I'm not only, you know, an executive in the hair club, I'm a member too. You too that type of a thing. We take our own advice and it's your authenticity that has always resonated with me as the greatest thing you give to yourself and colleagues and patients.
Speaker 7:And I'll say one thing Chris is not a part of this butily and I never knew it is that I've I had at about a year in practice in a public detox, um, I had the same experience you had Steve, it was, you know, in the eerily similar thing, um, and again, uh, the powers that be. There was probably my um, my mentor and a sponsor, a chaplain at the hospital. We all knew dick fleck. That really. Um told me that she said just broke my anonymity, didn't I in public?
Speaker 7:I'm not supposed to do that, forgive me, um but, it's uh, but he was basically the one that guided me through that that we, uh, we're only responsible for effort, not outcome. And if your effort is motivated by your good training and your heart, you're motivated by love and believe, you're doing the right thing for people you know you're not responsible for what they go out and do, you know whatever it is, harm themselves, harm other people. We just do our best with it. But public things like that are difficult to deal with and I'll just end by saying that without a team like this, always available to me for all of the years that I have worked in doing this, I wouldn't have had a chance to really be any good at it, because we, you know it's a complicated thing. We teach most what we need to learn. Our patients teach us what we don't know, and it's a never-ending process of gaining more humility the farther we go.
Speaker 7:So, again, I just love being here, so thanks for inviting me once more, steve.
Speaker 2:Well, all of you, of course, know that you're always invited back. This is probably one of the greatest groups I've ever been part of, you know, minus the Rolling Stones, of course, but you're about the same age, so it works out. But all joking aside, you know, prior to the interview I was writing down, there's close to 200 years of experience among us six in the field, and that's nothing to sneeze at when you have so many great minds. And one of the things that I also celebrate, one of the things that I will give credit to every single one of you, is that we've always celebrated our differences. We didn't want anyone to reciprocate what we were saying.
Speaker 2:All the time we were willing to have discussions, and to me, that's how growth occurs, that's how a lot of things that will make this humanity grow occurs. And that doesn't mean we need to always agree. We can agree to disagree, but that just means that it just makes us better people, because there's still a respect that comes from that. So maybe that's also my little political rant, because that's what I think is missing in politics too, is the respect of having different points of view. But I think in therapy we've learned with these six men that you know I can't say I've disagreed a whole lot with most of you, but at the same time, when we disagreed, we disagreed and it was still respectful.
Speaker 2:So I want to mention that too, because when we think about therapy, we think about a lot of the suffering that people go through and you know, I always wonder how you know. I always wonder how you know. Maybe I'll start with Chris, since you're newer here. You know how do you think about suffering in therapy, because that's really what we're facing when we're working with individuals, right?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'd be glad to kick that off To me. Geez, where to begin? I guess one of the most transformational experiences for me was when I was in medical school. I went to medical school at the University of Maryland. The campus for the medical school is in Baltimore and it's in a quite. It was then and I think it still is in a quite impoverished area where most of the patients were black and poor and most of the doctors were white and the care in the inner city was by and large quite poor.
Speaker 4:So when I was a medical student and I started to go up, the first two years of medical school are class-based and then the second two years are on the wards, seeing people in the hospital. And when I got up into the wards in the hospital I'd meet these folks who were quite ill and often unclothed, you know, in gowns and stuff. So they were exposing their bodies to me and their extreme vulnerability was just so moving and the idea that I was meeting them at this moment. And it became very clear that if I entered that moment with friendliness, warmth, kindness, gentleness, generosity, neighborliness, gentleness, generosity, neighborliness that the person responded almost always with just relief, reciprocation and gratitude. And it struck me, and I had a lot of poor white people too in those beds.
Speaker 4:And I remember putting my hands on this woman she must have been about 80, old white woman, putting my hands on her body to palpate her internal organs as part of the examination, and I thought, my God, this is probably the first time in years that anyone has touched her body in this manner.
Speaker 4:It just made me feel like this is a sacred moment and my opportunity to be in this relationship is a sacred moment, and that feeling has never left me. And I also know that when I've been suffering myself and I've had to go to a therapist or to a psychiatrist, I feel so raw and so exposed and so vulnerable and even the wrong choice of word can be so hurtful, like this one psychiatrist I saw who actually became my doctor and he compensated for this goof by being a good doctor. But after talking to me for 20 or 30 minutes he said oh, I know several people like you and he might as well have hit me in the stomach, people like you and it just reinforced to me the idea that we have to be so careful because it's a sacred moment and if we meet the moment well, good things can really happen, and if we fuck it up, which is so easy to do, then it kind of collapses. So maybe I would just offer that as an idea to kick off the conversation.
Speaker 2:I turn to you guys. I look bad once to talk, so let's go again.
Speaker 7:Boy, I couldn't have said it better myself. The way I feel Everything we do is sacred, the amount of privilege I feel when people share things and when someone looks at you and says I don't believe I've ever told anyone else that and I was trained simply that it's going to be after a while it's hard to tell you something you haven't heard before or some version like it, and part of that is just validating that they're not as bad as they feel. I trained a lot of advocates, triage clinicians, in my role with interns in psych triage, emergency room triage, and I would tell anybody that would listen to me and the students that you're going to often meet people and their family members on the worst day of their lives, or at least that's how it feels to them, and that's a sacred opportunity, but also it's a tremendous responsibility and that's why we need so much support and help with it. But suffering is you know, I'm Buddhist by nature and the root of all suffering is desire and often, like you talked about the medical school people just desire to be well or not sick. We've all met people that all they want, what drives their entire being, is to just to try not to feel sick. Now. Often their strategies are compounding their problem, like with addiction and things like that, but they're trying to avoid feeling awful and our job often is to let them know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. But the ticket for that is some discomfort. You know there's no.
Speaker 7:I remember early on in the addiction business you used to say just get sober, everything's going to be great. No, you're going to feel like crap for a long time. I know that my first year sober was the worst year of my life Best in retrospect as far as the connections I made and all of that but it was not a happy time. It was awful and I wouldn't have gotten through it without clinicians. An extraordinary psychotherapist that I saw for 17 years saved my life. I think she was amazing, and so it's.
Speaker 7:I get emotional about that because it's one of the things I had to learn in practice is that it's okay to show your emotion. You know when people are telling you something that is just heartbreaking, you know I'm not above just reflecting that and I think, as chris said and then I'll end, is that that's part of how I show them some, some real empathy, is that their story is so moving to me that I just show that I just I'm authentic with that, and that's that's one of those moments when I think we are meeting heart to heart, not head to head. Psychiatry is not about the psyche. I think it's about the heart, and that's how we help to heal is to just be authentic with our own humanity. So that was a perfect place to start, I think, steve.
Speaker 2:I agree, and you know I'm just going to mention the other thing that a lot of you have done in this they give everyone here tribute to. Also, is you always all of you encourage me to be authentic and for me sometimes it looks like, hey, that's fucked up, because something fucked up happened to someone. You say it and then there's times where I'm like, after the story is done and we've done a little bit of therapy, I'm like I have tears in my eyes just listening to your story and that authenticity has taken, like when someone last week asked me what's your success in your private practice Authenticity. You can't fake you. So I just want to mention that because I give a lot of credit to everyone here, because, as you've seen, probably since you've known me, even for those of you who listen to podcasts regularly there's never going to be a fake Steve on here, because I can't fake Steve and that's something that you're absolutely right. Clients respond to that more than they respond to hmm, tell me more about that.
Speaker 2:And working in the ER, you know, chris would even like once in a while, when I would go to oh, this is straightforward, blah, blah, blah, chris would be like no, no, slow down, let's look at the whole story, let's look at the whole family and Chris would be always very good at calming me down. I didn't appreciate it all the time at 2 o'clock in the morning. I'll be perfectly honest with you. But when he started talking about the suffering of the family and what the impact will be if I send someone to Holyoke, massachusetts, when they live in, we'll say Plymouth is a huge burden for that family and Chris would talk me off of doing that. And if you know Massachusetts, that's opposite ends of the states. So I want to mention authenticity and what he brought to my experience in the er despite at 2 am sometimes going come on chris, uh, I would I would be like, uh, that a little bit, but ultimately he reminded me of all those things.
Speaker 2:I'd love to hear from you, andy, a little bit more about that suffering and therapy and authenticity and everything else we just talked about, because I think it's an important conversation we're all all of it right now.
Speaker 3:There's so much there. It's such a deep topic, steve, can't be faked. We have tried and failed, but, yeah, suffering to me is an essential. Part of our job is to help people with that and and walk with people through it. It's present in every day and every session that we do and most people, I think, try to avoid it and to Pat. One of your points about discomfort is that, well, we have to acknowledge it. We have to do something with it and find the, the piece or the lesson within it, because it's telling us to do something, it's telling us to pay attention to something, but that most people do not react to suffering by embracing it and asking for more, digging in in deeper. So I feel like that's an important part of our job.
Speaker 3:One comment to just ping pong off something you said, chris, about your great therapist, who let you down initially. One of the things I try to tell people in my own pithy way, is to say that suffering is not relative. Everybody's suffering as their own. It's a subjective experience and you cannot compare it to anyone else, and so each person gets their own version of it and gets their own story, their own narrative, to tell back potentially the parts that we see in it or the parts that we relate to, as you guys were saying, and making that connection with the person can ease the suffering I always talk, too, about we're not getting into the circumstances or the facts of what you're talking about. That brought you here and brought us to this conversation as much as we're talking about what's going on underneath that all and why the suffering is what you feel, apart from the circumstances. So I've been trying to separate those two things so we can get to what's really going on with the person, not what, what are they doing so much.
Speaker 3:But when I get into that with someone, you know it's hard. It's hard not to take on pieces of that. Also it's hard not to suffer yourself, you know, as you're listening to people and working with them and empathizing. But I think that's also a bit of the job. You know that's one of our skills is to be able to do that with other people and you know I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for that that I can manage that every day and still come back for more, because I guess where the reward is is seeing people get relieved of suffering, is seeing people work through it and come to terms with it, you know, because they're not usually alleviating it completely. They're not banishing it from their lives and becoming happy or everything's great after that. It's just well, we can accept it and we can move forward. That's how I look at it.
Speaker 2:I think that you have your wand and you write in the top left drawer that you pull out when people want to feel better.
Speaker 2:Yes, right you're the one. I knew there was one of you, uh, but no, I think it's good points, all joking aside, you know being able to sit there and listen to what's inside, because the subjective of what happened on the outside is not as important as how you feel. Leave it inside. My current therapist almost barely listens to what I say, and what I mean by that is like where are you feeling it in your body? And he always makes me come back to the body. It's a good Buddhist practice, a good meditation practice, and it's certainly something that really helps me too, because he's like it doesn't matter what the facts are, because it's subjective in many ways and it's your own view.
Speaker 2:Where are you feeling it? How does it feel? How do we breathe out that stuff? And I know that's a little metaphysical for some people, but I truly appreciate Joe. So shout out to Joe, who doesn't listen at all to the podcast. Dennis, I think that one of the other parts too. We talked about joining with our clients and I want to let you talk, but it's also interesting because I always think about one of the most boundary therapists I've ever met in the most respectful fashion is you, dennis, and I'm sure that that plays a factor too.
Speaker 6:Boundaries are important for all of us, and I think one of the things that is most important is being able to get across to folks that we sit with that we're willing to sit with them and tolerate their suffering but also, at the same time, to stand up to it. And I have to say that, in thinking about this, each one of us has been available to the other's suffering at some point in time, and that's important, because part of when we stand up to the suffering and we engage the suffering, some of it gets inside and we need to have ways to be able to help ourselves to move through that ourselves. And that's, I think, part of the authenticity, but it's also part of the boundary and recognizing that there is so much that we can tolerate, and then we need to recognize that we need to be able to empty it. So I think that there's different aspects to this dynamic of suffering, because it's a mutual process. It's a mutual therapeutic process.
Speaker 4:Can I just say really quickly, I think, what Steve said about you, dennis, that characterization of you as very boundary, very present. I've had the privilege of working beside you with a couple of clients and that's absolutely stone cold, accurate about you your steadiness, your presence, your unwavering commitment to the process.
Speaker 6:It's very inspiring. Thank you Again. You've provided the same for me, Thanks.
Speaker 2:For those of you who might be walking into this conversation, this is not a mutual admiration club but a truly sincerity. It's a sincerity club because I think that this is the stuff that, even if you saw most of us work together 10, 15 years ago in the same environment, would have been a similar conversation, maybe not as flowery in some ways, but at the same time we were like. You know that how I've characterized my relationship with Chris and Bob and Dennis and Pat and Andy is that it's respect, and Pat and Andy is that it's respect and it's also being able to bring in a little goofiness, a little bit of what comes with the work. That can be difficult, but also having that space Because the suffering that we go through and I think, dennis, you make an excellent point there's a cartoon that you'll see on some social media where someone always puts their hand on someone who's suffering and the black of that individual goes on to them and goes on to them and goes on to them until they're all black and how therapy is and also having self-care and doing things for ourselves removes that from us constantly carrying that, because the suffering, you know, is shared.
Speaker 2:I mean we learn empathy but it's hard not to have sympathy, also when you have so many people with suffering, and I don't know what your experience is, bob, but I'd like to hear more about it.
Speaker 5:Well, I think you've all made some wonderful points. I agree with all of them, and the sacred moment idea is something I'm aware of in most sessions, and especially when people say I've never told this to another human being and it's happened so often, and when I supervise some of the younger people coming into the field.
Speaker 5:They'll say that you know what this person said to me. They said to me I'm the only one they've ever told that to and I said you're going to hear that many times in your career and it is a sacred moment. When I was younger, a wise old therapist of mine said there's three things you need to build for the therapeutic alliance and, chris, you encapsulated this when you were talking. You want to make the person feel safe, respected and understood, and those three things safe is something that I think some of us don't understand how deep that can be. We know we talked about the boundaries, but the authenticity is the counterbalance to that and I think that those two things play off each other. You know we can be boundary, but we can also be extremely authentic and people know that they can feel it, and that's one of the ways I think we hold clients in a caring way by being authentic, understanding them and trying to help them walk through the. You know their trauma, whatever it is, and we have to meet them where they are.
Speaker 5:Everyone is different. I've always been struck with how some people will walk in and they'll say I've got this horrible problem. My printer went down yesterday. I had somebody say that and I said how's the rest of your life? And he goes I don't have any problems. And you know that that was one extreme. And then you've got people that come in with horrific, you know, horrific lives that they've suffered so much but we have. I think we need to meet them both where we are, you know, where we have to let them know we're with you, we care, and let's see what we can do to read the signal that is your suffering, learn from it and then kind of move on. You know, how do we make it different, how do you make it different and what do you have to do, without judgment or shame? I mean, I think that, chris, you were saying it sometimes just a word or two can be really damaging and you can see it in the person. I mean, if you're, if you're paying attention, you see it, the person did and you feel it, and so and I think sometimes it's I'll often say correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I'm observing, this is what I'm seeing, or this is what it feels like, and and I really give a lot of I think I was going to use the word power, but I think it's just trying to help the client realize they do have something important to say. I want to hear it and it is something that's worthwhile.
Speaker 5:I'm a big fan of the two theories of attachment theory and of self-psychology, and so a lot of my stuff. You know, dennis, when you were talking or I guess it was Steve saying, you know, at 2am Chris wants to go into the what's going on with the family. The family's critical and I I think it took me you know we have people that are coming into the clinics all the time with CBT, which is a great theory and a great practice, don't get me wrong. But the family and the situations that are part of growing up they shape the person, they develop the person and they also will impact their relationships for the rest of their lives, and some of it's wonderful and then some of it's pretty horrendous. So just, you know I'm a fan of that. So I try to allow the individual to be themselves. I need to have the courage to step into their suffering, with them, and I also feel like I do what I can to give them hope.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think when you talk about CBT, I mean that's my education. What are you doing, man Throwing everything off, it's fine.
Speaker 2:But, all joking aside, I think none of us use one theory and I think that's a little bit of the misnomer that happens a lot with people leaving school now because I don't use CBT exclusively. In fact there's days I don't use CBT exclusively. In fact there's days I don't use it at all. And I think that a little bit of that we can go into theory as we want. Because self psychology I think that if we have another episode in us, I mean I think that a lot of people want to hear about self psychology because it's not something we've touched on here and there, but I think it's something that people could really benefit from. But again, not singularly. One of the things I talked about suffering and I want to throw a little spirituality in that Pardon my old.
Speaker 2:You know I'm like Pat, I practice Buddhism principles and one of the things that you know life is, suffering is part of it, and suffering is due to desire and it takes time to go through it.
Speaker 2:And part of our job and I think to put in a Christian belief is walk through the valley of darkness and part of what our job as therapists sometimes is to hold that hand through the valley of darkness, and I'm not trying to make it religious but there's a spiritual journey that goes with that, in the suffering, because most people I joked around with the wand but I've had a.
Speaker 2:I've recently had a couple of people like I'm not feeling any better. Yeah, you're right, three weeks for 20 years of trauma. You're right, I'm not that good and trying to explain that the suffering is not something that we want them to, like you know, get rid of quickly, because we need to walk through that suffering in order to get to the other side. I don't know, pat, I'm turned to you because I turn to a lot of like spirituality around here and we have similar thoughts, but I want to hear more about that whole process because it's suffering is not like oh Chris, I don't have the wand, but Andy does, or Chris does, or Dennis does, or none of us do, and it's walking through that suffering. Sometimes that's the hardest part for some people because they've suffered for so long.
Speaker 7:The fountain of youth is to keep your legs as strong as possible, I believe, and to always stay curious, and in the last 10 years I've been shifting away from traditional practices to energy work and the quantum frequency healing, which is where our field is going in the next generation's lifetime. But it's really amazing to see that, and so I focus a lot on the energy we all speak to, that. What is emanating? What are you experiencing in the connection to the person, the patient, the client? I was trained by Dennis in the late 80s. Dennis was my initial intern supervisor and I still channel Dennis when it's all hitting the fan. I actually see Dennis's face. I really do, which some of his patients can tell you that I've known or referred, that I can do Dennis really well. I won't do it here, but it's because it's gotten me through when I don't know what to do next.
Speaker 7:Either Dick or Dick Flack or Dennis comes into my mind because I've watched them for so much. But Dennis impressed upon me a lot, but it was since I co-led a lot of groups with Dennis. It was the process of silence and being, and we were trained by someone in those days that once said that the difference between a smart therapist and a wise therapist is a smart therapist knows what to say and a wise therapist knows when not to say it. And that was Arthur. Arthur C Mercoli I heard say that, and he but this, this process of just silence, and when I use that now I do it a lot and it's to just feel what I'm feeling from the person and focusing a little bit on the energy. And recently I came across a remarkable psychosocial sociological study in the energy quantum healing field that had to do with measuring the energy that we give off and and its impact on other people, and they thought that their hypothesis going into this experiment was is that when you, when someone was experiencing a loving feeling, that would be the most impactful feeling on another person, not even close, 500 times more strongly than love, which is supposedly what motivates so much of human interaction 500 times stronger was authenticity. When you projected authenticity, you connected with the other person and, boy, that just resonated with me. As to everything I've experienced, and all of you have spoken to that.
Speaker 7:When you're sitting, when I don't know what to do next, I just sit and I take a deep breath and I just try to reflect. You know, compassion, the concept of compassion. At that moment you know where. You don't know what to do next. So don't do anything, just be. Just be with the person. Sometimes I just breathe with them. I've done that more than anything. When I don't get into cbt, in that moment I just say let's breathe, you know, because they're hyperventilating, they're not breathing and all of that, and let's just get connected to the breath.
Speaker 7:And then often it happens. You know a five-year-old boy who sat in with his mother once said when she was having a meltdown, he came up, put his hand on her running board of her car or whatever, and she said it's okay. Pat Weiss says it's good to cry, which is my favorite therapeutic comment, but he said he heard that and he knew in his heart of hearts that that was true. It made him feel better. So, um, I think authenticity is so much a part of how I practice and I think we all do it intuitively. I would love something around. You know, I'll end, but with the self-psychology, because, because I can still remember Bob and Dennis and I and many of the folks in the days of Leonard Morris doing a cohort you know the self-psychology work study or study group. It was fabulous. It formed so much of my orientation to the process.
Speaker 4:I have an idea for merch for the mental men. I would like to have a T-shirt that says Pat Rice says it's okay to cry, Pat Rice.
Speaker 2:Copyright copyright right away.
Speaker 4:So, we need a merch option that's perfect, Bob the t-shirts.
Speaker 6:The t-shirts.
Speaker 7:The no-wining t-shirts back in the day.
Speaker 4:Right, right. Yeah, I don't really have a hat, but Pat Rice says it's okay to twine.
Speaker 2:Hats t-shirts, hoodies, mugs. You got it. That's beautiful, geez andy, you wanted to say something before. Uh, before we came up with this. A great idea to market all this stuff. This is great.
Speaker 3:I'm copywriting all of it, right now, yeah, I don't want to quash your economic podcast success here, but you know, I I I'm touched by the Pat and it's not surprising to me that a child is more connected to suffering and the healing of that suffering than the adult, because they're closer to it, they're not afraid of it, they're not running. He's not running from it, he's trying to get his mom not to run from it. Yeah, there's, there's speaking of wisdom, you know you look backwards to to get more of it sometimes.
Speaker 2:Uh, in age well, you know, I think that that's. That's. One of the things is that we, we learn to change how we interpret things as we get older and we think we're being intellectual when in all reality what we do is work, I think, sometimes to get back to the basics. You know, because I think that when people ask me about emotions and you guys know I work with first responders they always go I don't know. Well, I have the wheel of emotions and I'm like here, hold it and look at it and find out at least three of them, and literally they go back to really that's. I'm just sad. I'm like here, hold it and look at it and find out at least three of them, and literally they go back to really that's. I'm just sad. I'm like, yeah, exactly, getting back to the basics and the basic emotions is sometimes the best thing you could ever do for individuals.
Speaker 5:We've worked with. Just a quick comment on that with Andy, I think you're exactly right and I you know part of the issues around trauma. We've been, we do a lot of trauma work at the clinics and certainly it happens in the private practice. But people get they actually get trained on how to survive period and some of that has to do with putting on the armor, some of that has to do with letting go of your expectations around yourself. Some of it has to do with how you. You know that you're not worthy of love, so why expect it? There's a whole lot of things that people get trained in. But the little boy mom I don't know if I can do it with a buck's money, but that right says not to fly or whatever. The children are really not quite. They're not encapsulated yet unless they have horrible the first few years.
Speaker 2:It's a really good point. They have horrible the first few years. It's a really good point and the thing that happens I know that some of your EMDR clinicians how many times do I do EMDR and someone like in this fifth or sixth session of EMDR says I never told anyone about this. But now I feel like I can process this and they tell you something that they've never said to anyone before and that's the privilege of the suffering that we open up for people. Uh, and I'm not going to get into too much emdr definitions of opening the channels and stuff like that, but, um, ultimately, I think that you know the suffering is exactly the work that we do and it's it if we can get back to the basics, as as you said, andy, and you know it's okay to cry. Copyright pending.
Speaker 1:I think that it's so so important to remember that.
Speaker 2:And for me I think that I'll add to this as we wrap up here to laugh, it's okay to be angry, it's okay to have all that, because we're complex individuals in that way. And for me, as you said you know you try to break me, andy, and a lot of people have, and it hasn't happened yet I use humor not only to lighten up the mood but also to point out the absurdity of life sometimes, out the absurdity of life sometimes, and I think that that's important in all our work to also make our clients laugh, because laughter has a lot of good neurological processes. That helps individual kind of process even faster what we have to do. But as we wrap up here, you know what, chris, you were afraid that we only talk about your subject. I told you Pat just takes us to the left field and we just come back, and I think that we have a lot more to talk about. We talked about self-psychology. I think that we need to talk about healing and therapy, because we didn't even really talk about that.
Speaker 2:I would love to have you all back soon, probably sooner rather than later. And one of the things that I also want to make sure you understand is from the bottom of my heart. I love all of you and that's one of the things that I I've learned in my career and in my life. I don't take love for granted, and I can't tell you how much I love all of you and I can't wait to see you on the golf course.
Speaker 7:Love all you guys. Sounds great. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4:I'm so glad to join this group this is welcome aboard.
Speaker 7:Yes, you, we love having you, thank you, thank you I just, we just remembered how much we need chris gordon in our life if I could if I could make a comment about healing.
Speaker 6:What, what folks saw today with us is part of the healing process.
Speaker 7:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and we've proven on the golf course. Four of us play golf a lot, it's true. You know it's a, it's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing. I so cherish these relationships and sooner, sooner is good for me. Steve, I'm all in.
Speaker 2:Chris, you better be joining us too, I'd love to.
Speaker 4:I'd love to. This was great fun.
Speaker 2:Do it be joining us too? I'd love to. I'd love to. This was great fun. Do it. Well, thank you guys, and I'm gonna uh talk to you soon. Well, this concludes episode 152. Everyone I can't say all their names again, I'll just say chris, andy, bob, dennis and pat. Thank you so much. Dennis is the only one in me not having a nickname, I guess, uh, but thank you so much. I'm. I know we're gonna have each other on again. I can't wait to have you back on. Uh, but episode one 53, which will be my three year anniversary, which I can't believe. I've done this for three years. I hope you've enjoyed a lot of these episodes. But for episode one 53, we're going to talk about people pleasing. We're going to talk about how that affects people and how to possibly address it. So hope you join me then.
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