Finding Your Way Through Therapy
E.157 Innovative Therapeutic Approaches with Expressive Arts with Bed Hermin
Guest host Courtney Romanowski unlocks the power of creativity and emotional healing with our special guest, Bed Hermin, a licensed mental health counselor and registered expressive arts therapist. Discover how Bed's educational journey at Lesley University and the rich history of the expressive arts therapy program shape their approach to therapy. Bed guides us through the innovative practices of intermodal, polyaesthetic embodiment, highlighting how these methods foster self-exploration and healing in ways that transcend traditional art forms.
Ever wondered how thoughts manifest in the brain, or how attention and energy movement can improve emotional well-being? We'll demystify these concepts, using therapeutic practices like Internal Family Systems (IFS) to illustrate the dynamic interplay of mind and body. By shifting the focus to societal challenges and the role of interdependence, we explore how life's conditions influence mental health and why the goal is not to "fix" clients but to nurture an environment of healing and compassion.
Finally, we tackle the practical and ethical dilemmas faced by therapists, from the financial constraints of private practice to the systemic obstacles in community health. Through the lens of expressive arts therapy, we envision a future where creative, qualitative therapies gain the recognition they deserve alongside evidence-based methods. And if you're on a quest to find the right therapist, this episode underscores the importance of finding someone who truly supports you, highlighting the transformative potential of expressive arts therapy.
Visit their website at: https://counseling.bedhermin.com/ or visit their Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/counseling.bedhermin/
Guest host Courtney Romanowski unlocks the power of creativity and emotional healing with our special guest, Bed Hermin, a licensed mental health counselor and registered expressive arts therapist. Discover how Bed's educational journey at Lesley University and the rich history of the expressive arts therapy program shape their approach to therapy. Bed guides us through the innovative practices of intermodal, polyaesthetic embodiment, highlighting how these methods foster self-exploration and healing in ways that transcend traditional art forms.
Ever wondered how thoughts manifest in the brain, or how attention and energy movement can improve emotional well-being? We'll demystify these concepts, using therapeutic practices like Internal Family Systems (IFS) to illustrate the dynamic interplay of mind and body. By shifting the focus to societal challenges and the role of interdependence, we explore how life's conditions influence mental health and why the goal is not to "fix" clients but to nurture an environment of healing and compassion.
Finally, we tackle the practical and ethical dilemmas faced by therapists, from the financial constraints of private practice to the systemic obstacles in community health. Through the lens of expressive arts therapy, we envision a future where creative, qualitative therapies gain the recognition they deserve alongside evidence-based methods. And if you're on a quest to find the right therapist, this episode underscores the importance of finding someone who truly supports you, highlighting the transformative potential of expressive arts therapy.
Visit their website at: https://counseling.bedhermin.com/ or visit their Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/counseling.bedhermin/
Hi and welcome to Finding your Way Through Therapy. A proud member of the PsychCraft Network, the goal of this podcast is to demystify therapy, what can happen in therapy and the wide array of conversations you can have in and about therapy Through personal experiences. Guests will talk about therapy, their experiences with it and how psychology and therapy are present in many places in their lives, with lots of authenticity and a touch of humor. Here is your guest host, courtney Romanowski.
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Speaker 3:Leave 50 to save $50 on your first month. All right, hello everybody, my name is Courtney Romanowski. Co-host, guest host, whatever you want to call it of Finding your Way Through Therapy. Thank you again to Steve Bisson for letting me take over some of these episodes with a focus on creative arts therapy expressive arts therapy. This is my fourth episode based on creative arts and the expressive arts therapies. My last episode was number 151, with Maya Benatar and her experiences as a music therapist. Thank you, maya, for joining me for that. And today I have with me here Bed Herman, a licensed mental health counselor in the state of Massachusetts and a registered expressive arts therapist with the International Association. Thank you, bed, for joining me today thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm so excited to talk about expressive arts therapies and you as an expressive arts therapist. So I guess, just to get started, who are you? How do you practice? What does it mean to be an expressive arts therapist? That's a loaded question maybe, but great questions.
Speaker 4:Lots of questions, yeah, rapid fire. The first one, depending on on the kind. I feel like it depends on the context who I am, on the kind, I feel like it depends on the context, who I am, how I show up, who other people see me as. But within this context, I am a counselor and I am one who's studied expressive arts therapy at Lesley University, so I have a master's in that it's actually a master's in clinical mental health counseling and a specialization in expressive arts therapy. Some interesting history in that university, as the one who like basically a lot of the codification of expressive arts therapy came from there and there were a few riffs actually in the, I want to say in the 90s. It was of whether to go fully clinical with the program as a way to get licensure in the state or whether to stay as sort of an adjunct, maybe modality or modality. But as it stands, I am licensed. I practice virtually exclusively right now online and let's see who I am. What express, what was this? There are two other follow-up questions. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I know. So maybe my first one would be for folks who are not familiar with expressive arts therapy and are hopefully listening to my episodes about what they are and getting to know them. What is expressive arts therapy?
Speaker 4:Yes, expressive arts therapy, in my humble opinion, is, as I mentioned to you before, one of my least favorite names for my most favorite therapeutic modality, mainly because it doesn't necessarily have to do with arts as we think of them. It's first and foremost a method of self-exploration, of healing, and not primarily entertainment, not primarily a modality that you think of with the arts when you think of the arts as shows or music, you think of with the arts, when you think of the arts as you know shows or music, concerts, museums this is really less about the arts and more about the distilling of these modalities into their essences, which is creativity, attunement, embodiment, which is why I would call it intermodal, polyaesthetic embodiment practices. And no one would remember that but Can you say that one?
Speaker 3:more time.
Speaker 4:I-P-E-P intermodal, polyaesthetic, embodiment practices. Intermodal because we use all the arts. That's why I don't like saying arts, because many people who don't know what this modality is will say who don't know what this modality is will say, oh, it has to do with drawing or it has to do with music, it has to do with art in some prescribed way. But the expressive arts therapy department is a intermodal, so it's all of the arts, creativity in any way that it comes, and there's often an emphasis on not just one art, not just one modality, so it might go from mark making to sound making, to play, within one session. We're looking at the self, how the self experiences suffering, how trauma is stored in the body, through all these different intermodal ways.
Speaker 4:Polyaesthetic because the aesthetics matter. I think it's really important that we don't kind of throw away the beauty and the joy of these creative endeavors, especially mixed with the healing, into this very what I'm thinking of as fluorescent light, white hallway, white padded wall approach to healing. We know that doesn't work. We've seen that not work historically. So intermodal, then polyaesthetic, because it's many ways of finding beauty, many ways of interfacing with that, the aesthetic realm of the arts. Embodiment practices. Embodiment because a lot of it is very much influenced by somatic practices, by dropping back into the body, not seeing the mind as just the more computational, computer-based way of approaching cognitive sciences, but really having it be an embodied healing practice not theoretical, very much practical. And the practice at the end is the encouragement for anyone who seeks this type of counsel to employ it in their daily lives, to go out and do it, to practice, just like anything that we might do, whether it's driving a car or or something creative like learning an instrument or doing taxes that takes practice.
Speaker 4:We are constantly practicing, every day, everything we do right so that's why, that's why I would call it that um but, expressive arts therapy is all that I'm not. This is not something that I've made up. This is really drawn from the principles and practices of the expressive arts therapy programs that were codified at leslie in the 70s and 80s yeah, and not to not to boil it down too simply, but I loved the, the how creativity is maybe one of the main focuses I would say.
Speaker 4:I would say the nerd in me wants to say neuroplasticity is the key, um, uh, but that I mean that might not be as as popular a term these days, but I would actually say that it's. I would. I would give it a a tie between creativity and imagination. Imagination, I really I would. I would say that those two together, hand in hand, are maybe one of the primary substrates of this whole concoction. If that makes sense.
Speaker 3:So how do you practice this as a clinician? How do you take someone who maybe is so much in their brain as some of us can so easily be in the world today and and help them get into their body, help them to practice this imaginative or imagination use?
Speaker 4:oh, there's so many ways um yeah, and I'm sure you know this also, but it so it's. It's. It's not anything that we don't know, but it so depends on the person. It's the. The other thing is this practice and most of the therapy methods that you're going to see today are very heavily inst by Carl Rogers and the person centered approach there is. There's really a even even in in some of the most you know, rigorous of methods I I'm thinking of EMDR as one of them, which it's very, I want to say almost rote, like you're reading a script as a therapist. You're not putting much of yourself, but you still tailor it to the individual. So much. So the approach is really different.
Speaker 4:For someone who lives in the world of thoughts or has some sort of spiral kind of hamster wheel thing going, a lot of it is just a very simple ask of like, what does that feel like in your body? Not everyone gets that, though. That's not. That's something that everyone can say like oh, it lives in my head. So for those who have that going and are willing to explore that through analogy and metaphor, that starts to get you into a more embodied sense of the thought. So, okay, if you're going off of the image of a hamster wheel, then we can maybe draw it out.
Speaker 4:Or maybe we're looking at circles and what it feels like to be making a circle and as I'm leading someone in doing this, I say like, well, what do you notice when you're doing that? They're like oh well, there's this like a spiral motion going and I realize that that's connected to my arm, which is connected to my chest. I'm like where does that start? Does it start at your feet? You're like maybe not there. There's some some ways into kind of getting from the thinking mind into the feeling body that involve process of elimination too. Sometimes I'm like someone will be like I don't know, I don't know where I feel that or how I feel that. I'm like well, do you feel it in your fingernails?
Speaker 4:not a lot of people have said yes not everyone has said no, but which again like so personal right, not experience actually it might be a series of questioning like that, like a Socratic method type of thing, and sometimes it's just sharing other people's experiences. Um hippocampal, always, I'm also a scorpio so I'll never say anything, and yeah. So sometimes it's just a matter of suggestion, a matter of play.
Speaker 4:I'm very playful and my approach, sometimes seeing that can allow you to mirror that like well, I'm feeling spiky just hearing about it it's like a spikiness I swear it's coming out of like my back, like if I just had like porcupine quills, and it's just like oh, and then people, a participant might see that and be like oh yeah, it is kind of like that, but my spikes are like dinosaur spikes whatever it might be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I really love the, the mirror, and you know I do some of the same approach with my clients. It's like I'm feeling, like I'm noticing, as we're doing this, like what's coming up for me, and it's like, oh yeah, like I don't know, I'm not, that's not actually. But now I'm recognizing what is happening, like okay, cool. I'm recognizing what is happening like okay, cool, yeah, and it's. It can be a real awesome thing to be a part of seeing people who have been so much in their heads actually start to come down into their bodies and settle in and not to say that it happens right away right like anything else in therapy.
Speaker 3:Sometimes this process can take time. Being able to be creative and play and imagination, yeah, absolutely. But so I'm thinking, too, to play devil's advocate, as I often say, um, with clients. Um, you know, and if I was somebody who had no idea what expressive arts therapy looked like? Or you know, listening to this podcast for the first time, okay, so you're telling me that if I'm moving my body, I'm going to start to feel better? Or if I understand that I'm moving from my shoulder, that that's going to heal me somehow? What's your answer to something like that? It's not.
Speaker 4:Nope, moving your shoulder may not do anything. I would say to that person well, you're still here, so like, let's try it. Let me ask you, I'm gonna direct you, I'll drive a little bit and you tell me does the landscape change as I'm going this way? Because that's the other thing is like, this isn't for everyone. This, there's no one size fits all and there are so many options in america uh, I just came from, uh, a little bit of a stint in brazil and colombia and they don't have this plethora, this buffet of, like, different options in. It's a lot like more. The playing field is much more narrow. So if someone said to me, I don't think that's going to heal me, I'll be like, yeah, probably not. And if someone says, oh, how is that going to help? And I say, well, we've just moved a, a thought which we don't.
Speaker 4:Truly I was talking to a client about this recently like we, we as humans, don't, we still don't exactly know what a thought is. We can measure them. We know what it looks like in the brain, in the body, we know what a neuron looks like, but truly it's just an energy packet on a purely physical level. A thought looks like that, it's quantified as that, but where it comes from, like self-consciousness in general, if you go back a little further, like none of us actually know. I mean, psychology is not one of the hard sciences. Hard sciences I I stand by that. I'll hang my hat on that. People will find me on that. But it's why I like this discipline is that people can say, like I don't think that's going to work and I can say that this energy packet that you are kind of caught in a mental cycle about, if we divert it in the silliest of ways, all of a sudden your attention, which is so important in this method, like where is your attention, which is so important in this method? Like where is your attention? Who's paying attention?
Speaker 4:I use IFS a lot, so sometimes it's parts that are kind of stuck in a thing. And if I bring a part into a shoulder and I tell you to move it, what has that done to these energy packets? And how can you start to find a way where I don't know if we're going off of maybe an annoyance that you're thinking of? This is annoying and it looks like a spiral and I've moved it and all of a sudden we've imagined that this is where this shoulder part is, where it lives.
Speaker 4:And then every time you're mad from now on for this is the practice part, now on, to the extent of your ability, think of that anger is just sitting there and maybe every time you get angry you like kind of shake your shoulder a little bit, see what happens and, like, this is where some of the biology comes in.
Speaker 4:It's like when energies are moved or shifts, there is some sort of relief somewhere, right, and the more you practice moving, the like, moving the energy, moving the flow, moving your attention, moving your awareness the easier you can go between points of deep suffering and points of the deep okayness that you can have in life. And sometimes happy I mean happy is sick when you can have in life, and sometimes happy I mean happy is sick when you can get there, like down with that. Um, but yeah, in terms of the client who's like I don't see how moving my shoulder will alleviate anything to them, I might you know, depending on how scientific you want to get, I'm like, all right, do you want me to describe to you the causes and conditions of, uh, like or like biological imprints, like how you know?
Speaker 4:I would ask them and if it's, if it's coming from, I also might ask, like, what part of wants to know? Is there a part of you that like really wants this angry thing to be over? And and thinking, associating some silly what looks silly thing with like a lack of being able to solve things and then you know, maybe talking that part, where does that part live?
Speaker 4:yeah, does that make sense? I don't. Sometimes you know it's funny like I, sometimes I say things it makes so much sense in my head and sometimes when I say it doesn't but I also would say that easily, easily half my clients on like a really full caseload, uh, easily half my clients are like did that make any sense? Did I say, did I, did that make sense? And to me as a clinician I'm like like no, that made total sense, all of the sense, a hundred percent dollars out of that. I also have a lot of clients who have been frustrated growing up in a world that does not fit the mental, emotional health that they're trying to achieve. It's a square peg and a round hole. These systems and this, this society, isn't conducive to a lot of people's well-being, absolutely so.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of like no one's ever understood when I say like this feels pink, and I'm like no, I get that totally, totally, and you know my I've latched on to, you know this idea that, like we're not as clinicians and you know I will speak for myself um, but from you and I talking and even I checked out your website you know my job isn't to fix someone right or to help them fix themselves or be better, or you know, like there's so many different words that are used, but like this idea that there's something wrong and I need to do something about it, so then I'm better and everything is going to be okay.
Speaker 4:Thoughts on that Well, I can weave this in with one of the other questions that we were talking about before the recording began.
Speaker 4:But it's really important to me and I'll tie it in with a little my upbringing as a Buddhist to recognize that so much of our experience is based on causes and conditions and not some responsible entity within ourselves to make everything perfect or fix.
Speaker 4:So when I'm working on my motorcycle I can, I can just go in and I and the, the screw is this way and I have to do, I have to like adjust some some pedal thing, I don't know, like there's, there's just like all these little things and I know if I put this here it'll work. Um, and neurons are fantastically not like that. They work with a body that's incredibly dynamic and is constantly being acted upon by environmental causes, physical, emotional, all that stuff. So a lot of my Buddhist upbringing has focused also on this idea of perceiving and discerning our actions, our thoughts and our being in this world as within this confluence of forces, this idea of dependent origination, like interdependence and everything kind of going on. So it would be silly for me as one person to go in and fix any one thing, but I can help create an environment that is conducive to encouraging causes and condition of healing, of compassion, to to manifest right. So it's much more of that approach in my, in my yeah, in my work it sounds like in life too.
Speaker 4:It's just and life it's really nice to have happened upon a career path that allows me to be fully me and also like I don't have to code switch. It's amazing, Especially now that I'm not in the community mental health world and I'm just doing private practice. I can just be me. It's awesome.
Speaker 3:Wow, what a wonderful world. So, speaking of you know getting out of community health versus being in private practice. What has that transition been like for you as a clinician, as an expressive arts therapist?
Speaker 4:liberating also. Oh, it's just been all of it, it's been everything. It depends on like which part of the whole thing, but there's a fair bit of maybe. Let me say it feels like like right now, when I'm thinking of it, it feels just like this really big stew of like all these different things and they're all bubbling and it's like hot and some some of the ingredients feel similar or different. Um, but it's. It's definitely this like sort of churned up, maybe not a stew, maybe it's even like a cauldron, like that's. That's a big question. I'm like which? Which part of which ingredient do you want me to pull out? But yeah, it's been a lot. I go I guess I don't know if that's helpful, but no, it's been a lot.
Speaker 3:I mean, as somebody who's gone front has had a similar trajectory. I don't know, my experience was, and maybe it's just where I was in my life. At the time being, community health felt great because I was helping people who maybe didn't have access to support otherwise or didn't have anybody else on their side to turn to. But as a dance movement therapist I wasn't sure how to not fit inside that box in a way that felt true to myself, whereas now in private practice I feel I can be a little bit more true to myself, but the guilt of who I can work with, if that makes sense, because the guilt is rising up.
Speaker 3:But I have to pay my bills and I have to make sure that I can do X, y, z and maybe I have a few sliding skill spots open, but I can't do it as much as I would like to be able to. Or you know, there's a little bit more of a seesaw with that. That's not the right image exactly, but anyways. So that's kind of been some of my journey with that. But it feels good to be true to myself as a movement therapist, more so, yeah absolutely Well.
Speaker 4:It reminds me of also the the education system, um, where, when I was I was, I was living in Brooklyn for about six years before coming back to grad school and at one point when I was getting disillusioned with the art scene and what it would take to be a professional artist and things like that, it was brought to my attention that I could either go into teaching, like you could teach art, or you could be an art therapist.
Speaker 4:And I didn't know what an art therapist was at the time.
Speaker 4:And then a very dear friend of mine, who was an adjunct I think is still is an adjunct professor at Leslie, introduced me to this other, like one, one, one creative discipline removed from from the arts, and like I was like, oh, I do do music and art and drama and all these things and there's a, there's a discipline that encourages the movement between all of these and having such an authentic as you may have had as a dance move therapist, like an authentic, like real kind of flourishing of what that method is, and then getting into a system which I feel is actually much like the education system, like, um, like the public education systems of like, well, we can only have half an hour of an elective. Some, some, some kids don't have art classes at all or dance classes at all, and I think part of my move into expressive arts therapy versus becoming a creative arts teacher was trying to get away from those kind of rigid systems that don't allow personal flourishing. And then the cmhc world looked a lot like the like the public school system.
Speaker 4:So I was like trying to avoid and I was like, oh, but it's, you know, it's, it's systemic, it's turned out in a certain way you're meant to be making some sort of uh I don't know something. I remember someone saying, like the cmhcs are actually just there to placate the government's kind of desire, like make it seem like the government is like doing their job to help the population and then creating an entire generation of burnt out clinicians who can't be themselves. So I mean, I'm thinking of one very, very cynical person, which is my father. But yeah, just sort of being like oh yeah, this isn't the community mental health scene as it is funded by governments who try to fund other things more. Just isn't a good environment for a lot of reasons, for a lot of people. And still, there's some amazing people working there.
Speaker 4:That'll never, leave and I'm like y'all do it.
Speaker 3:It's amazing yeah, no, there's some wonderful clinicians out there who are doing the good work how long were you in uh in the community setting? Not that long, I want to say a year, maybe a little less. And then I went into a couple of different partial hospitalization programs before going to private practice. Did you ever do inpatient? No, never inpatient. Have you done inpatient?
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 3:And the way some of my clients now who are outpatient talk about their experiences being hospitalized for mental health issues makes me want to just tear down all of it Again. There are some wonderful clinicians out there who are doing that hard work but it's not set up for the work that needs to be done for these folks. I'd agree with that. But just to kind of get back to therapy being available, expressive arts therapy being available to folks who maybe can't find it or can't come to it on their own or because of an I don't know how to form that question, but like, just how do you see expressive arts therapy becoming more equitable to our world?
Speaker 4:It would take a serious rebranding. Yeah, our world being a capitalist world, I really think that the right person could rebrand it and sell it in a beautiful way, and that will probably not be me I was gonna say maybe it's you no, I don't know if I'm up to the task.
Speaker 4:I I really do think that a lot of what becomes affordable, accessible, mainstream, has had a serious rebranding by someone who wants to make a lot of money. Again, I'm being hella cynical, I get it, but think of the punk music, like the punk movement and punk music in general. Like you can see people wearing a ramon shirt that they bought for like 50 dollars, that has some rhinestones on it. I've seen that in in New York and you're like this was something that was not accessible to everyone, that only a few people could find, and really got a rebranding, got redistributed, got resold, and I mean, like I'll say that the uncynical like the more positive.
Speaker 4:Yes, it's like, no, no, thinking of people who provide amazing representation. And, uh, in the world, uh, rain dove is a genderqueer model who was like, yeah, I think. I think rain says that it's like gender capitalism or something, and, for what it's worth, has reached a really broad market on social media not mainstream yet, and but has been featured on a lot of magazines. Um, I think a lot of the drag scene has. You know rupaul's drag show. You could ask people around the country and they might have heard of it, right so, but all of that took a little bit of calculation from a part of others. And this is where I think of that interdependence of like who's making it popular? Who's getting the word out? Um, who's working with hospitals in a different way?
Speaker 4:You know, I can hear all my professors being like that's the wrong answer. It's research, right, because that's the other one. Obviously. It's like emdr, cbt, all of these ones that are like the go-tos are there because they have a lot of evidence-based research. My problem with that is that a lot of these methods are qualitative and unless science gets real compassionate, real quick, we're not going to find a lot of the types of research that are going to be, again palatable, marketable? I don't know. That's my first. I'm like. Part of me is like man. Maybe I should think about this for the next month. Hit me up for a month and I'll have a completely different answer.
Speaker 3:Well, sure, of course. Yeah, the research piece, american Dance Therapy Association is constantly asking us start doing the research, start writing the articles you know this, that and the other things, so that we can get it out there and for good, and for great and for also just feeling a little cynical, like, but like, why can't the world just I know the world can't just know, but like we as a people, as a world, have been practicing art and music and dance and drama and for for ages, right, like we know it heals, we know it works, we know it brings people together I mean, is that that's the other thing, though?
Speaker 4:um, I read a lot of the politics of therapy and like is that what mainstream society wants? Because a really healed, really creative, really compassionate society does not go out and spend recklessly. It does not go out and buy guns, does not? Someone who is plagued by something and really is motivated in the creative and imaginative sense goes and makes a movie about something, does not go and act on the thing, someone who is, I mean like you think of artists who have had the you know, the opportunity to really delve into their work, and I mean so a lot of questionable artists out there also doing bad stuff and I can't think of, like, how much worse it would be if they didn't have that outlet.
Speaker 4:But yeah, I don't think that it in a lot of, in a lot of the books that are exploring mental health, emotional health, in light of political and and basically, yeah, political and cultural systems is like, who does it really behoove to have a society that's creative and expressive and joyful? Um, and also, I guess part of me thinks of this, this sense that, like it would, it would mean that a lot of, a lot of mainstream, mainstream society would have to admit that they're wrong about the way they've been shepherding us into these new areas of technologies, of globalization, all these things. And I don't know how many, how many establishments are going to be like, oh yeah, no, this, this suicide rate, definitely our our fault, like that was our fault. We gotta change.
Speaker 4:So but and that's why sometimes when I talk to clients, I'll be up front I'm like the the word work, employment, as a standard of how your mental health is comes up like 400 and some odd time I can't remember the right number, but it comes up a lot as a standard like and the DSM in the U? S is like our Bible. Unfortunately, I often in my intakes will tell clients like okay, so this intake is highly clinical and it is our offering to the gods of insurance, may they pay for all of your services. And like I'm so sorry, like okay, so this intake is highly clinical and it is our offering to the gods of insurance may they pay for all of your services. And like I'm so sorry I have to breeze through your deep trauma history and be like can you go to work because of this? How? How well are you working? Can you sleep? Can you sleep? Because if you're not sleeping, you probably can't be a functioning member of society.
Speaker 3:And like that's the metric from the angle of this book sorry, I have to put a name on this as to what is going on with you.
Speaker 4:That, yeah, yeah so yeah, so I think that's part of the like. Will it get to the point where everyone knows about it? I mean, unless society doesn't want to eat it, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Not the answer I was looking for a bed.
Speaker 3:But thanks, I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding, I want it to happen tomorrow.
Speaker 4:You're like half my clients. Sorry, it's probably going to feel really bad to like truly feel your feelings. I swear in two months it'll feel different. Yeah, yeah, that's not the answer that I want. Can I redo my answer? Sure, okay, sick.
Speaker 4:So my other answer is in about 10 years this will be so common because there will have been just like a break in the way that we associate mental health and not like this clinical status. Associate mental health and not like this clinical says. We're gonna like really start to see mental health just as it seeped over from like a little bit the, the, the really disturbed few into like now it's not taboo to have a therapist. That's just gonna keep going. So we're gonna start seeing more clinicians in the classrooms. Clinicians, um, maybe, maybe more response teams on emergency units will employ a clinician. I mean, if we got a crossing guard, why not have a clinical mental health counselor next to that crossing guard, saying hi to all the irate moms who, like are so tired because they don't, you know, and just like have this fostering mass proliferation of like, creativity, attunement, embodiment, compassion. I give it like 10 years, okay, so we'll check back in in 10 years Sick.
Speaker 3:We also went from one extreme to the other, and I love it. We can play with that.
Speaker 4:I mean it's good to have those extremes because reality always falls somewhere in the middle. I mean it's good to have those extremes because reality always falls somewhere in the middle. So for the listeners out there, take those two extremes, Do not give either credence and find your own way in the middle, somehow. That's Buddhist.
Speaker 3:It's the middle way. We have come full circle. Yeah, so I was going to. How do we go from this part in our conversation where, like we're, you know how, can we?
Speaker 4:I always ask my guests four times now to the people who are listening any encouragement or any advice on if they're curious about expressive arts therapy or therapy in general, or my advice for someone who's who's curious about therapy in general is to not get attached to any one thing as being the one therapy that's the best, that's the the right one. You can really spend a lot of time researching everything until you and you can also do. You can, you can almost like do the tinder of of trying to find, because you're just like, oh, I can get a free consultation. It's, it's almost like a first date. I'm like, oh, my god, you have 15 minutes to decide whether you want to get real into that with this person and there's no need to get stuck on a thing. Someone who's interested in exploring the possibility of therapy in general yeah, try a bunch of things.
Speaker 4:Most of us clinicians I would hazard a guess that any good clinician it's not going to get offended if you do a consult and you're like, ah, you are not going to be helpful to me.
Speaker 4:And also, I think within the like, don't get stuck. Is you know you're, if you're, if you're doing this for the benefit of yourself and others like, try, try a bunch, a bunch of, try a bunch of it? Um, I know some people who had one therapist and it's like, oh, it was a perfect there right off the bat and they saw that person for um a short amount of time, got over the thing that they needed, that they needed support around, got unstuck Great, it took me five six there, but five something like that to find someone who I'm like yeah, this person is so supportive and I'm so comfortable exploring all these different vulnerable parts with um and I think that that's what the new sort of contemporary world of therapy is starting to show. Is that, method aside, like you can really find the right community, if it's group therapy, or the right person to help you with cultivating those causes and conditions for happiness and well-being so important to find the right person community.
Speaker 4:Also, my super recommendation is, if you don't feel good at a therapy session, like three times in a row like good with the person, like definitely bail, like there's nothing wrong with you I have. I see people who are like, wow, tell me about their previous service. I'm like, man, you gotta get out of there. If it's not working, tell me about their previous service.
Speaker 3:I'm like, yeah, I gotta get out of there if it's not working. There's a lot of us there are yeah and not that maybe the therapy itself is going to feel good or what you're talking about exploring is going to feel good. But if the person, if the therapist, isn't leaving you with a good herd, supported feeling at the end of sessions, then, yeah, it might be time to try somebody else.
Speaker 4:Yeah, um, in terms of finding expressive arts therapists, I don't know. I mean, there is iataorg and there's some directories, um, and there's a lot of people who have a degree in expressive arts therapy who just do psychodynamic talk therapy, but they're a little more creative about about it. Um, actually, a fair amount of my clients we just do talk therapy for a number of reasons. It's not exclusively that I like I I'm really much more faithful to the original method, so I'm always trying to pull you back into this creative world. But I know people who just use it sort of as an adjunct for for working through stuff.
Speaker 4:But yeah, it's all different, it's all unique and it can all be tailored to you to meet your needs. It's it's a really interesting discipline and it's unlike any other relationship you'll have with any like. You just don't see that kind of relationship and to worry about being judged or worry about giving back or worry about that dynamic, because we're here to help you and we're here to, like, whatever that means to you, get you to your I don't know your most authentic, so, of course. So then I'm going back into person-centered. Some people just like, want to be deeply okay and some people really need to have a significant perspective shift away from really some unfair and unimaginable situations of suffering, and we're here to help it's an honor to to be there with them for sure that's a great word.
Speaker 4:I feel very honored to and and really, yeah, very honored to be helping folks to be called on to, to share in that journey. Is is for sure that it really is.
Speaker 3:I mean to be with somebody when they are being their most vulnerable self, either in sadness or fear, anger, or in happiness and silliness, and creative. You know, it's just. It's really awesome experience to be a part of and, like you said, to like I love not expecting anything back and just to kind of go back to something you said really early why not try expressive arts therapy? Why not See what happens? It's a different try. I am noticing the time, so we still have a few more minutes, but I wanted to ask if there's anything else about being an expressive arts therapist or about the use of that. You want to make sure people hear from you um, I mean, I don't think I could.
Speaker 4:No, I don't think I can point to any one thing, just like revisiting that point from earlier of like this isn't. This is not an end-all, be-all practice. This is not recommended for everyone in the world. Also, a lot of people will will try to support that, but I really think that I really think that the only thing I can think of right now is that quote from anger man, and I can't do it specifically.
Speaker 4:I don't have like it verbatim, but it's like 80% of the times. It works a hundred percent of the time and I'm like like, like for a caseload of highly tailored people who have come to me specifically for these methods. It works great. So, yeah, I mean, I think that if traditional methods of therapy haven't worked for you in the, if you're looking to engage in life in a way that's more authentic to the way we were brought into this world, with sort of openness and imagination and play and sort of looking at things really, really differently, if you're looking to deconstruct the habitual patterns that society has really ingrained in us, it can be a great method.
Speaker 3:Perfect. I think that's a great way to wrap up this episode together. Thank you For folks who are looking to get in touch with you. How can they do that? Where can they find?
Speaker 4:you Counselingbedhermancom, or you can. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure there aren't that many Bedhermans on the internet, so I'm sure if you just pop in Bedherman to your preferred search engine you can find it. But definitely my website, counselingbedhermancom, and my email, which is also listed there, is bedhermanatoutlookcom. Happy to get in touch, happy to answer questions. And oh, I would be remiss if I didn't hear my marketing coach be like. You do have social media too, counselingbedherman. On Instagram I don't post very much, but it's there. That's where that one's for Larry, over at score Boston. Thank you, thanks, larry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we'll. We'll definitely include the links in our our show notes and everything but fantastic.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much for having me on. I love, I love talking about this stuff.
Speaker 3:Happy to hear yeah, thank you, bud, so so much. I me on. I love, I love talking about this stuff. Happy to hear yeah, thank you, bud, so so much. I'm so glad we can get together and do this, and thank you everybody for listening. Next episode is with Steve, and I believe he's going to be getting the mental men back together. Just always a great time. So thanks again and see you soon.
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