Capturing a Capacity to Grow

This episode is a conversation with faculty Wiline Pangle, PhD. She is leading a new certificate that is a combined effort of many and speaks to a movement in education that we are more than a little interested in. This certificate gives students an opportunity to integrate their skills and apply them in a way that is authentic. We discuss the difference between student driven and student centered learning. We hear about the logistics involved and the dreams for this certificate. And we are inspired by the way in which this program looks to capture a student's capacity to grow and help them maximize the skills that aren't easily assessed by siloed systems.

Music:
David Biedenbender 

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Transcript

Ashley O'Neil: 0:00

Have you ever dream about the educational system you wish we had a place where best practices meet enough time and enough resources and enough staff. The theme of our season is change. And I think a lot about the changes that I would make if I were in the classroom tomorrow, the changes that I plan to make when I teach undergrads next semester, the changes that I think are powerful and possible within our current system, because changing the system is about making good solid change when and where you can, and advocating for the rest. So when I got an email from a beloved colleague here at CMU, I was immediately intrigued, because while it's easy to focus on the roadblocks and the things that are stopping us from building an educational space of our dreaming dreams, there are places and pockets in which people aren't waiting for change, they're making it. So I don't want to diminish the very real constraints and problems that educators are facing. But today, we're going to talk about a dream within a college at a university. And the ways in which all of the stakeholders involved the dean, the faculty, the students and staff are moving together to make a really big change in what it means to learn, you're going to hear a conversation that Julie and I had with William Pengal. She's a faculty member here, and she's leading a new program called Insight. She'll explain the details fully. But in our conversation, we touch on all the things that come with creating a learning space for students how to assess who's going to teach, what's the goal for faculty and for students. And our answers are really unexpected. And they speak to a broader move to change how to teach, we know the world isn't siloed. And that textbook learning pretty much stops after graduation. So what kind of learning could be a better model for how students will operate in the world? Here's valine.

Wiline Pangle: 1:54

And, of course, insights stands for integration of science, technology and engineering. It's a 15 credit certificate, meant to complement a major in our college of science and science and engineering, it doesn't replace a program, it doesn't replace your major. But it's a space where we can make sure our undergraduate students get all the skills that employers are looking for, we often refer to that set of skills as the 21st century skills. And so we're thinking of things like interdisciplinary communication, conflict resolution, or working in a diverse group while everybody feels valued. And even like things like project management skills, data skills, and so we know that our students needed and that provides a space where we can really set your own skills, and let departments teach the content.

Julie Cunningham: 2:53

And you expect to have roughly 75 students eventually, right?

Wiline Pangle: 2:58

Yes, and I think maybe sooner than we think. We are recruiting students right now. And we have a finding our students are very eager and very excited. And so we'll see, right, it's always hard to know how many until people apply. But the goal is 75 per cohort. So students will take the certificate as a cohort, they get accepted into the program as a cohort, and then move through five classes, one every spring there. So whenever it's year, one, their second year when their third year. And then the fourth year is a capstone like experience with a course in the fall and of course, in the spring, and so they would be moving through all this as a group of 75.

Ashley O'Neil: 3:38

So what started you and process and I like, all of the things you're saying, I go, Yeah, students seen those? Yes, that's really helpful. But how did you get started in this?

Wiline Pangle: 3:49

How, man, I don't know how long of it. I think I've always gravitated towards interdisciplinary teaching. And I can think back on the very first time I was given my own teaching space, I was already thinking, how do I reach my students that have X or Y interest? So like, I'm thinking of the non major class in biology, I was teaching with students that, you know, don't rewrite biology. How do we reach out? And so that was, like 1012 years ago now. And my I would argue my most productive collaborations, were always with non scientist where we found a space where we felt everybody was learning. And so that was always something that, you know, I was interested in that we developed. And when I look at my resume, what are the big ticket items, they are all interdisciplinary. And we felt that was going so well at CMU, there's a cohort I think of folks at CMU, maybe not a call but a group for whom this really resonates or we keep finding each other in that same space. isn't. So when I say, Well, maybe we should do something bigger. That's not just faculty working with each other, you know, when we can see the value of what we're doing, our students need more opportunities for things like that. And so I would argue that the first time this became more concrete was an innovation grant that we submitted, it was right before COVID, the President's initiative of trying to think outside the box. And we submitted a really thorough proposal where we propose an interdisciplinary center, it wasn't just at the college level, we were really kind of breaking down all those educational silos, we got turned out, which makes it it's fine. But you know, that wasn't then kind of in our head. And when we got a new dean at our college, and as pitched the same thing, instead of, okay, I got a yes. And I think that's really what I got involved is seeing that these ideas resonated with Dean Ford. And he had already been thinking about something like this. And so I think the curate insight as we are pitching it is a combination of his initial thoughts. You know, my initial idea on collaboration across colleges, and then the, you know, all the faculty that got involved in building this. So it's really a synergy of all these things.

Julie Cunningham: 6:21

That is exciting. I get excited all over again, every time I hear you talk about it. What are you most excited about when it comes to this? Do you think?

Wiline Pangle: 6:31

Oh, I don't know. I think it's hard to pinpoint. It's a certain energy that, that every time we bring this up that it generates. So it's hard to say, what is it? I'm excited to see how eager our students are, when I bring it up? Like I don't have to sell it. If anything, they're challenging me saying, How can I? How can you make it work? For me, that's this meeting I'm having with students, not me trying hard to convince them, they need to come join us. For faculty, it's the same thing. It's like the for those whom this resume, there's no pitching involved, like, they just want to know more, they get more and more excited, as they learn more. So brings that energy to the room. I love that we're creating something from scratch, rather than trying to fix something that may not be working that we inherited. And so having that also be something brand new from the get go, that we can set up with a mission and, you know, and values that we care about is also really refreshing. And I think I'd be most excited when it starts I think probably right? In spring, we're starting this spring 2023. But even now, like I get excited every time a student submits an application, I know it sounds kind of silly, but And so yeah, I think it's hard to pinpoint one. And I love that it does resonate. And I love that this was created. It's not just my brainchild, it's it's a collaborative process that everybody felt a part of, and seeing that come to fruition, I think is just really exciting.

Julie Cunningham: 8:09

So if I have time to ask one more question, you always cut each other, younger in the same room. When you talk about the faculty who are involved, those are different departments, but all the same college for now.

Wiline Pangle: 8:25

For now. Yeah. And I pitched bigger, I pitched across the whole university. And I was told, okay, start small, make it work within our college where we have control, which makes sense, and then maybe open up later. But I do keep bringing up because already it's hard for me when I have a business student that says I heard about insight. Where do I apply? And I go? Sorry, it's really hard. And I would argue my interdisciplinary counsel or faculty from all our college departments already are like, Yeah, you're right. How do we say no? And so, but again, right, we we are conscious that it's already a big endeavor, we got to build and start with our own students. But if it works, I'm going to want to open up quickly.

Julie Cunningham: 9:11

Can you talk a little bit about that faculty counselor, because I've heard from your associate dean that that is very exciting. And that it people are coming together in a way that couldn't really have been contrived in another situation. So

Wiline Pangle: 9:26

it so when I, I'm going to be a little caustic for a second. When I think of committee work, right? I start to frown in my head, like, I gotta go do that. And I think, you know, I have in my head, that picture of a bunch of faculty that have to be there probably didn't always choose to be there, where there's a bunch of work to do. That's administrative that none of us picked. And as I go into more work more time, right, and it's not particularly exciting. I feel like what we did with our counsel for insight was the exact opposite. The more meetings we had, the more people want into wanting to meet that more excitement there was in that space. And it's interesting, especially knowing that when I was given the list, I didn't pick my council members. I was handed goodness. Yeah, it was started before I joined that group. And I think I can say without, you know, it was some of the biggest personalities of our college were on that is on I thought, oh, my gosh, how am I going to lead this? I didn't know some of them. I thought whoa, is gonna define was 14 people, which is a good size Council is big group. And I would say within two or three meetings, it the vibe changed. I think people were very excited to be part of a group that was productive. And I would argue that the success, I'm actually going to assign the success to our dean, there's one thing that was different in that council is that one member, and it was me, I was paid. And I think that completely changed it because I felt valued to do the work. We could talk about all that had to happen. And then I could go do it. I was paid, and bring back work that was done. And the council would go, Whoa, that looks cool when we actually accomplished something. And then that kind of got us rolling, where it became kind of the way we worked. And it was extremely productive for a community where again, everybody saw their voice their input. Yeah, so it was, it couldn't really have worked any better. And I think I can see that, you know, and speak for my council members that they were all very excited by the end. Yeah, that's exciting,

Ashley O'Neil: 11:38

feels universal. I think that every time that a meeting shows up in your inbox, you're like, okay, is this just one more thing? Yes, it's just one more training is there's just one more check of a box. And it sounds like you were able to transform the culture of that committee to say, No, we're doing real work here. And you were able to go do the things rather than them squeezing it in on top of their load or their chair work, you could go be the action and then bring back and then they could come up with more ideas, which freed up bandwidth for more,

Wiline Pangle: 12:06

that was exactly it. And, you know, if I hadn't been paid, I would have been the grumpy one as well, how come I got to do all that stuff, right. And so having that model, I think was critical to the well functioning of that group.

Julie Cunningham: 12:20

Or I think additionally, something that our listeners might not recognize, and maybe I don't even always recognize at the university level, but faculties Courseload. And what they teach could change from and the committees they serve on really, for that matter, or their grant work, or their research could change from semesters yester. So even having one person paid, who can follow the project all the way through is huge. Because otherwise, you don't always get continuity all the way. Yeah.

Wiline Pangle: 12:54

And that I do not know of the model where someone was paid in that kind of setup, because usually it's regular faculty, who are, you know, it's part of the job description, you're supposed to do committee work. And we don't get to choose who, what and how sometimes. And so, that really did change the model. Yeah,

Julie Cunningham: 13:17

great. Um, the other. The other thing I was thinking about in my head, when you were talking about this is, that's one of my favorite things. In my position as director is when I get to collaborate with others, whether it's in my college or outside of my college, and it's a true collaboration where everybody's really, you know, feels valued and is putting forth ideas, and they're coming to fruition. And so has that been additionally a fun part for you? Because you said, you know, everybody going in, but

Wiline Pangle: 13:47

you I mean, I remember the first meeting I led I thought, okay, that guy even read articles on how do you eat a diverse group of people that you do not know that I thought, okay, but I can't eat something hot, you know. And so I came to the first one with a fair amount of nerves. It was virtual on top of it, which for me was a big deal, because I rely on body language, and that was removed. And so I had 15 little screens on my computer. And I thought, here we go. How do I deal with a guy that interrupts if that happens, right, like, where? How do I create that culture? And it was within I want to say even two meetings instead of me, dreading I was excited for the meetings, like I would actually like plan my week around it. And it was a very exciting space I was looking forward to rather than dread. Yeah, so it didn't take long.

Ashley O'Neil: 14:42

So faculty are doing this work with you this fall. And then what will their What will your involvement What will their involvement be in the spring students?

Wiline Pangle: 14:52

So the faculty that we're talking about as a group represents our interdisciplinary Council, and so It's an advisory board, I would say that oversees how it goes make sure that we are keeping true to our mission, and that we're basically, you know, selling along. So if they are, you know, we actually still determining right now, what is that rule? We have determined so far that the, you know, the council will oversee student applications, for instance, or faculty applications, we are making faculty jump through a tiny hoops to teach with us that they have to think for us to question three, three questions, pretty sure. But still, like, yes, we know you're busy. But we do want you to spend half an hour thinking, why do you want to teach with us what classes resonate, that kind of things. But that's the council. And so we have multiple other rules in which faculty can get involved. One is teaching. And so we're going to have teachers, you know, starting this January, we'll have a team, each class is team taught three, if we can two if you can't, but we want to model true professional collaboration. If we asking the students to work in diverse teams, we got to show how that works. And so we don't want a biologist and a biologist and chemist or something we want truly different fields within science, if we can write it does, you know is based a little bit on recruitment, and who can teach what one. So that's another key role. But then there's also all the research that goes with it. And I would say, I'm equally excited about the research that happens, I do not want a program that we're running without some very strong assessments and evaluation, I want to be able to tell people in three, four years, here's what worked, here's what did not work and backed up with data. And so we have an entire kind of research line starting on this as well. And that is, you know, potentially a different set of faculty that may be more interested in the pedagogical kind of work, we can do, you know, presenting at conferences, writing articles, writing grants. So there's a lot of that that can happen. And then their last role is in some of my faculty, that's what they're most excited about is a research mentor type role. And so in year three, and four, so year three and four of our program, our students are going to be much more involved in research. And instead of faculty say, Hey, want to work with me, it's going to be a reverse model, where the students pitch to faculty, their vision, what they want to do, and faculty buys in based on their interests, or whether they can see where the students want to go. So we have a set of faculty that are waiting for that. Those are going to be trained students, by students that have a set of skills coming in. So for faculty point of view is very exciting. And they're self motivated. I would argue, additionally, I can speak for myself, one of the issues we have with research with students is that nobody gets up in the morning and say, I want to do Shiprock research. That's what I do. I just chip up work. Well, who woke up freshman year to say I'm going to become a chip up researcher. So of course, when they say okay, well, what research can I do? Oh, I can work with her. She does chipmunk Sure, within a month after being bitten by mosquitoes, you know, having every problem in the field, because what happens what they don't want to be there anymore. And of course they don't, it's not their dream, it was mine. And so we want to make sure it's their dream, their research what they're excited about, and then convince the faculty to join. So very different as very excited. Yes. So for four different ways faculty can get

Julie Cunningham: 18:35

involved. And these are all undergraduates, right? These are graduates, undergrads. And so having undergraduates do research and write papers. And present is also a very, I mean, that does happen, but maybe not on this larger scale.

Wiline Pangle: 18:50

And on something they picked, right, it happens, but on something the faculty picks. And so I think to me, that's the most important aspect that is student driven, not student centered. Why? Because we do a lot of student centered, but what they literally are driving what they're doing, they are picking what they want to do. And then we make sure so my role will become a lot of mentoring is connecting students with the right faculty finding who can help them that will probably take some growing pains. But I think it's arguably one of the most exciting aspects. So I think that sounds really, and I'll add to that, you know, we have some students that are doing that right now. But it's a very select few, it tends to be our honors students. And so what I'm excited about is opening that research path to students that wouldn't otherwise have access or don't think they can do it gonna deal with that imposter syndrome of well look at that. It's only my tops, peers that are getting into these research labs and I don't see myself there and they don't look like me and I'm not even gonna go ask right and so we really do want to make it truly more accessible. And

Julie Cunningham: 20:03

I just want to follow up with that. Because when you when you say that making it more accessible, you really have been, you're not just saying that you really have been thoughtful about how right and so you're talking about the training that the teachers or the Deaf sorry that the faculty are going into this fall, because you're not just giving lip service to this idea that

Wiline Pangle: 20:23

we it really is our value number one is equity. And I think as a council, we all felt very strongly that we wanted this to be a truly equitable and accessible program. And that was, you know, when I said it was wonderful to create something from scratch that was really being able to put that in the middle. And every decision we made, we went back to these core values, including equity and say, well, is that equitable? So that starts with our students applications. We can't use GPA and past experiences, because we know that that's not an equitable system. And so if I don't rely on GPA, then what do we rely on for applications? Now, it took us a long time to figure out but I'll start by saying that there's nothing there. So our first paper will probably be equitable applications. What does that look like? But it's things like this, that we wanted to be truly accessible. So right now to give, you know, continue on that application process, students can turn in a sound bite, if they do not like to write if writing is the roadblock, we want to make sure we remove that. And if they don't like sound bites, they can sign a video or whatever format they choose. And that will not be less valued than a written answer. And we actually are doing the same for faculty. So faculty, we thought it was fair, if we asked students to jump through a hoop to join site, then the faculty should do that too. And so they do have to reply to, and they also can submit it as a soundbite. And so we really did try to keep it equitable. And then we also realize that what we doing is fairly different than what I would call traditional teaching, right? Traditional lecturing, where a faculty shares their expertise in front of students. If a student driven Well, first, we don't have content, we teach skills, and the students bring the content from their majors. So no, the faculty cannot stand in front of the room and lecture on sustainability. While I'm sure I think we'd all be interested, that is not what we're there for the student new faculty bringing their expertise to support specific projects that the students may be interested in, or topics well, we call this a case study design, type learning space. And so yeah, this you know, none of us have taught with case study design, I would say, majority of our careers, and so we have to train. And so that's really what the fall is about is training our faculty, making sure that we can actually do what we said we would do. The training has case study, design is one of them. But we also have all the accessible materials, stem identity, recognizing that, you know, the way we teach might reflect our own histories and biases. And how do we kind of combat that? So it is a more equitable space?

Julie Cunningham: 23:09

Yeah, that's very interesting. So can you tell I mean, without maybe necessarily telling us exactly what the application says, like, How did you land on what the application?

Wiline Pangle: 23:18

Oh, it took me forever. And our council, I should say, I think it took me the whole summer, and then a lot of tweaking with the council, once we figured things out. I played around with all kinds of scenarios. I even thought, well, if we can't do GPA, that it you know, what about capacity? So we can we make them solve a problem that give them a logic puzzle, literally, like a puzzle with colors and things and even blocks in front of them, and have them solve it as a better measure of their capacity to grow in a program. But then, you know, you read it a little bit, and you see, oh, that's not equitable, for reason, X, Y, and Z. Right, then you have to deal with the those that have stressful situations that don't do well, when kind of thrown in, and so well without a scratch that I did a lot of reading on other people's applications. So the one I got inspired by the most was NASA has a really interesting application process. I looked at that at Google. And Google was the one that used to do logic puzzles, and then they actually published all their data on how that actually wasn't a better way to apply. And so that's when we scratched it. And we also looked at the program that we were inspired by. So our Dean, Dean Ford comes from University of Massachusetts Amherst. And they do have the only program that we found that was similar to what we wanted to build. So we spent some time there. We visited. We met with a lot of students in biodata. It was a few 100 students. And we looked at their application, and we also got inspired by the type of questions they were asking. So in some ways, what we're trying to do is capture the capacity to grow. It's very easy to say If it's very hard to do, and so and then also like, the things that research tells you to look for is like things like hope, and attitude and self care. Like, none of these are accessible. And so we started with something that is probably far from perfect. But we thought, well, let's try with three questions that assess more things like how well does insight help you get to where you want to get? So there are things like that? What are the global challenges in stem that you're passionate about? And how does that fit with the kind of career you want? And so they are questions that are a little bit more on on enthusiasm and passion and future rather than on past. But I can tell you, I'm sure we'll have to tweak them. And that's when we'll start to collect data and see well, were they predictive of a student's capacity to grow in our program? And if not, then we have to tweak. And so will we had to start with something for sure. Yeah. And

Julie Cunningham: 26:00

so we have some time, remember you mentioning that already that summer, was stressful, it was figured out an equitable way to have an application we found

Wiline Pangle: 26:08

like all the things not to do is everywhere. So if you Google equitable application, they will tell you everywhere what not to do, and nowhere, what to do.

Ashley O'Neil: 26:19

It's easier to say that right? Yes. To hear all of our non examples or pick apart something.

Julie Cunningham: 26:24

And have you found our students submitting different formats. platforms have

Wiline Pangle: 26:31

talked about it? So we're at the beginning the applications that you know, month, and our students procrastinate just like I would, and so we have a few, but not many yet. So they're talking about being excited they can. So I think we will get some alternative methods. But we I can't see I have them in fire. One student did ask me, Can I draw it as a comic strip? Oh, so I have yet to see the comic strip. But I'm really excited about that.

Julie Cunningham: 26:54

Right? Because who doesn't want to read some different or listen to some different exactly of an application? Sure.

Ashley O'Neil: 27:01

Why do you think what do you think students are hoping to get out of this versus what you're getting out of it? So that's, or what are you hoping to get out of it? So students goals and your goals? Do you think they're the same? Or different? Or there's some overlap?

Wiline Pangle: 27:13

I don't know. That's a really interesting question. I don't know if I could have answered that a month ago. But over the last month, I've had recruitment meetings, which are really turning into focus groups to be honest, where it's over coffee, so we pay for coffee, at ponders coffee. And that's how we talk about the program, we invite as many students that want to join every Friday. And the conversations on those tables is fascinating. And I feel like I'm getting a better idea of what our students are after. They want concrete skills, and they are recognizing employees need the skills they recognize they don't have the skills, and the classes they in are not going to cover these skills because they cover content. And I think, again, it takes me half a sentence, and then it really is taking zero pitching for them to buy in. And so the goal, I think, is employability is really the end, and how can I do this and not burden my degree, right? So there's a lot of conscious thinking about, what does that count for? And will that slow me down from graduation? And how does that interfere with my major and my minor and my blah, blah, blah? Like, that's a lot of the how to do that's what they're asking, how do we make it work, because I want to be part of this. And I would argue our goals are probably quite similar as a council, you know, and I'll speak for myself, my whole council is not here. So I'm gonna speak for them. But I think my goal is to have them graduate, and get whatever is next that they wanted. If that's grad school, it's great. If it's med school is great. If it's a job, right, as long as it is the goals, they had insight, help them get that goal.

Ashley O'Neil: 29:00

I think do when I listen to the skills you're talking about. It's not even landing the job. It's been being successful in feeling competent, and yes and capable in that job. So I can get the job. But now I'm not in over my head because I know how to be in this meeting. I know how to do this research, I know how to communicate with my colleagues, instead of my fellow student group. Because I I wonder that too, right? Like sometimes. interview skills. Yeah, selling yourself. And that's you can sell yourself really well, but then actually being on the job. It's a different set of skills that you're talking about.

Wiline Pangle: 29:36

I think you're right. It is quite different. And when the students are talking something of maybe I didn't quite, I think we talked about it last semester, but it's really becoming obviously it's a big deal is that our students, you know, are choosing a major and they feel contrived by those majors like they, they like it all right, and so like they might be passionate about it. I don't know sustainability or green energy. And then I'd walk into this in biology and in engineering and in chemistry and, and and then they're taking these classes that may not actually reflect their interest right now all these students that I'm having coffee with, or not even for some of them taking classes in their majors, because it's filling out the Gen Ed requirements, or the physics and the chemistry and the math and blah, blah, blah. And so it's giving them something to look forward to. It's like, it's a class where I'll be able to do that I will have to pick between whether like chemistry or biology, I can do both. I can explore both, while I'm filling out all these requirements that I'm not excited about. And so it does become appearance like they are they wanting something like that, that is interdisciplinary. And where, you know, they don't have to worry about all the other stuff. They also are very excited when I tell them there's no test. And indirect Oh, you mean there's no book? No, there's no book, like no exams, I don't have to memorize No, I don't, you don't have to memorize it's skill based, like you'll be doing skills. And along the way, hopefully, we get better at doing these skills together. And then there's a silence. And then the process and then the ask again. So there's no test. And I mean, again, we're talking about freshmen entering our college and are right now doing their very first midterms, figuring out a multiple choice is not fun, that they have to memorize pure brute memorization stuff that they don't do not passionate about. And so we're offering an alternative. And again, it's not going to replace that major. But it may be is what you can take a breath. And remember why you're doing this. And that's really what we intend. We want it to be a home, where regardless of where you're from, and and what you look like, you can take that breath and feel like you've been

Julie Cunningham: 31:52

there reminds me actually of a while back we well, some of what I struggle with, anyway, it's just this definition of STEM, right? Like we know what the acronym stands for. But if you work in STEM education, like we do, everything is called stem, and it doesn't always have the same meaning. And so in a way, to me, it loses some of its validity when we just throw that acronym around, right. And we don't have a definition. But one of the my favorite definitions that we heard a long time ago was that STEM is really the stuff in between the letters, yes, like the are like the seasoning in the recipe, right? And so that this feels to me like I mean, you're in a college that we call stamp, often. And I try to differentiate a little bit of what we do as STEM education just as so not to get confused by a college that we call STEM. And this feels like the stuff in between, which is I think, kind of nice was exciting. Yeah, yeah. No, I think Colleen, if there's anything that you want to add that we didn't ask you, and or you kind of touched on this, but if there's anything that you're really hoping to learn as you like you, yourself are hoping to learn as you go through this.

Wiline Pangle: 33:09

There's so much I don't know what I'm hoping to learn. Well, I want to make sure we can stay flexible, and, and grow without program. Because this all sounds great. But this is on paper right now. And none of it has happened yet. And so I think what I keep reiterating out loud as often as I can is let's stay flexible. And and be ready to you know, move it a little bit. And without, you know, we don't want to compromise our core values. But the implementation of these values, we can kind of move it in a bit so that we can be as accommodating as we can. If we stay strict to a structure, and students cannot take it cannot for whatever reason, and we have 20 students in there. I feel like we'll have failed a little bit. Or if I'm missing an entire departments worth of students because of reasons X, Y or Z. And so I think I'm like, I'm hoping to learn like how do we truly do this? What does it look like when it's implemented? And I am learning right now what do our students care why they care if it did double counts, if it did take longer to graduate, when all those are very fair reasons. And so how do I navigate the administrative aspect, stay true to our values and do what we actually hoping to do. I'm hoping to learn what works and what doesn't work. I'm sure we'll have a lot of things out work. And so trying to stay open to that, that you know, you know, there'll be successes and there'll be failures and that that's okay. You're gonna learn from both. That's an if you can stay flexible in that space of mine that we're building And with you know, figuring it out as we go, it can become something really positive rather than something that we dread