A Framework to Make Your Strategic Plan Actionable with Beth Saunders

Are you a nonprofit leader who feels stuck despite completing a strategic plan and hiring consultants?

It can be frustrating when you’ve “done the strategy” and still feel like you’re drowning in names and numbers to build a prospect list, complete a grant application or find Board candidates. 

You need to make your strategic plan actionable. You need genuine, lasting engagement to power up your mission and increase your impact.

My guest is Beth Saunders, a strategic consultant who helps nonprofits connect people and programs to mission and goals by harnessing their expertise and tapping their data. 

We discuss her MapMoveMeasure™ framework -- a guide for elevating stewardship and developing longer-term relationships with supporters – donors, volunteers, advocates, board members. This is a strategy for centering donor communication around goals and creating personalized journeys that move them to support your mission in more and bigger ways. It’s how you make your strategic plan actionable.

About Beth Saunders

Beth Saunders is passionate about making missions happen and believes meaningful human connection is the key to achieving positive change in the world.

She helps nonprofit leaders connect people and programs to mission and goals by harnessing their expertise and tapping their data. Her MapMoveMeasure™ framework is a guide for elevating stewardship and developing longer-term relationships with supporters – donors, volunteers, advocates, board members.

Connect with Beth on LinkedIn
Check out Beth's Website

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Transcript

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A massive transfer of wealth is right around the corner, and your constituent base is changing. Are your fundraising efforts ready? This episode is sponsored by Qgive by Bloomerang, an online fundraising solution that helps thousands of nonprofits raise money for their causes through online giving and event registration, forums, text fundraising, peer to peer campaigns, and auction events. Q gives tools help fundraisers like you raise more QGIF surveyed donors of all ages to create the brand new generational Giving Report, a comprehensive guide to help you best connect with constituents of all generations. To learn how new generations want to support you, hear from you, and stay connected with you, head to jcsocialmarketing.com q give. That's jcsocialmarketing.com qg giv to be notified when the report is released and to receive your free copy onto the show. Hello and welcome to NonproFit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit Nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi everyone. This is Julia Campbell, your host for nonprofit Nation. The question we're asking today, now, I know that my audience is comprised of nonprofit leaders, development directors, marketing directors, consultants, people that want to create impact that might feel stuck. And today we're talking about how you might feel stuck despite completing a strategic plan, a marketing plan, hiring consultants, going through all of the different motions, jumping through all the different hoops. And it can be really frustrating when you've done all of this and you've created all these different plans, but you still feel like you're drowning. So today we're going to talk about how to make this amazing strategic plan that you created actionable and how to get genuine, lasting engagement to power up your mission and increase your impact. And my guest today is Beth Saunders, a strategic consultant who helps nonprofits connect people and programs to mission and goals by harnessing their expertise and tapping their data. And we dive into her signature map move measure framework, which is a guide for elevating stewardship and developing longer term relationships with your supporters. That's your donors, volunteers, advocates, and board members. And this is a specific framework for centering donor communication around goals, creating personalized journeys that move them to support your mission in more and bigger ways. It's really how you make your strategic plan actionable. And I'm just so excited because I love talking action and tactics. So, beth, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Julia. It's really a thrill to be here. I'm excited to have this conversation. Yes. And Beth, I just want to say I really appreciate you're always highlighting and amplifying and commenting on my LinkedIn content and sharing about my podcast, and I. Just really appreciate it. So thank you. And I'm just so thrilled to have this conversation today. So my first question is, how did you get into nonprofit work? What is your journey to where you are today? Well, believe it or not, I got into nonprofit work through what I call my salisbury Hill moment. So if you're familiar with that, for those of you who aren't, Peter Gabriel actually left the band Genesis after his salisbury hill moment. We're dating ourselves. But it's okay. I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm probably going to do that a lot in this conversation. It's okay. I love Genesis. Love Peter Gabriel. So I had a Salisbury Hill moment, and I also tend to say I feel like I've lived my life backwards. You know, I do things later in life than other people do them. And so I got into nonprofit. I was actually turning 30 when I realized that banking just really wasn't doing it for me. I started my career. I went, studied business, and did an MBA. Sort of did all the. Checked all the boxes of being a good student, and was just wanting what I did every day to make a difference. What I was doing wasn't really meaningful to me. So I took this adventure vacation to get away from it all. And I was in Peru, hiking the inca trail. Literally had this moment where I could see nobody around me, and a bird flew by. It didn't talk to me, but a bird did fly by. But I looked around and I thought, we're so small, and the short amount of time we have here should be more meaningful. I'm not going to forget the way I feel right now. So I got back to my banking desk and started job hunting. And what ended up happening is I found a job. It was actually an Americorps vista roll with a microlipon organization. And I felt like business person banker could actually find space doing something meaningful. And that was how I really made the shift out of the corporate world into the nonprofit space. So after serving as an AmeriCorps vista with many folk much younger than myself. I stayed with that nonprofit for several years and I was like in lending operations. So I was still doing business related work, but I was helping people who had little or no access to credit. But then actually, my husband and I took another pause in life and we left our jobs and we spent a year in South America. We went back there, but this time we went and we volunteered. I don't know if you're familiar with, there's a website, idealist.org. Dot it, post jobs there. Well, again, as business people, we thought, what can we do? We can't do Doctors without Borders. We don't have a skill that is health related. But we found an NGO and we ended up running children education center in Peru for about six months. And we worked with peruvian volunteers and we really got involved in the community. So that just kept fueling my desire to stay in the nonprofit space. So when we got back, that was actually a whole year of being away. When we did get back, I stayed in the nonprofit space. And what happened was I shifted from working in a nonprofit to being a contract employee. This is how I ended up doing the work I'm doing today. I ended up helping a nonprofit open up a new location and was the project lead on a CRM project. After that, what I learned about myself was that I was really good at helping solve business problems with technology and connecting the dots between different departments, different roles. And that launched Beth Saunders Consulting, which is now Beth Saunders associates. Because making a difference in the world is something that so many organizations are doing and there's so many causes I'm passionate about that consulting to them or partnering with them allows me to make a difference through the work they're already doing. It's interesting. I have kind of, kind of not really, I mean, kind of a similar story. I did the Peace Corps, so I meet a lot of AmeriCorps volunteers and return Peace Corps volunteers. And I worked with a lot of NGO's abroad and came back and was a director of development for years and then went out on my own. So you started consulting around technology. So how did you move from consulting around technology to supporter engagement, which is what you do now? That happened. I spent a bunch of years helping nonprofits be successful on the Salesforce platform using the nonprofit success pack. I always approached that from a strategic perspective, saying, what are you trying to achieve in your organization and how do you go about achieving that? And how can this technology support you as opposed to you working the way that technology tells you you have to work. So my approach was always goals oriented and well into that first organization I was telling you about. We were working on their CRM project, and I learned about an app was actually called Engage at the time. And what it did is it sort of dropped right into the CRM and it helped measure engagement with supporters. So a lot of the work I'd been doing was supporting volunteer management, program management, fundraising, sort of operationally, everything across an organization. When I learned about this app and the idea of measuring it, I saw that it was much more strategic approach to using data. It was about identifying who's really interested in your mission because of the way they're interacting with you and leveraging the data. I realized that I could stay helping use technology, but really about leveraging that data to be more goals focused towards vision. So I learned about that. I would really like to give a shout out because at the time, it was software provided by firm called Groundwire. And the executive director there, Gideon Rosenblatt, actually pioneered the engagement pyramid, which this app measured. It was basically the engagement pyramid inside your CRM. And I was working, I got to know the folks there, particularly Karen Offelman, who went on from there to co found percolator consulting. And I think it's really important to shout that out. I'm very much a connector and I love sharing really great ideas. But all of the DIY material that they had put out there around engagement strategy is how I learned about what I now have created. Map, move, measure, theory of change, engagement pyramid. So the shift was I spent many years working on designing and implementing the technology. And with my background of business banking, like operational management, connecting people, and caring a lot about relationships, the shift to still leveraging data to facilitate these meaningful relationships got me really excited. So that's where I decided to focus. I love that. So let's get into the definitions here. So how is engagement strategy different from fundraising strategy, marketing strategy, volunteer management? Really glad you asked that question. I do get that a lot. First of all, the word engagement or supporter engagement is about all of the ways people can support the organization. Okay, so fundraising strategy is pretty specific to how to be successful raising funds. It's about the relationship with somebody when they're a donor. And marketing strategy is about the best way of marketing your story, your mission, by getting your communication and your messaging out. But engagement strategy is really about using all of those strategies to increase engagement from all of your supporters. So with an engagement strategy, it's like a wraparound. It talks about engagement strategy includes a lot of different components. If you were going to do engagement strategy, soup to nuts, you would start with your vision, you'd map some goals, you would strengthen your mission statement. You identify your superpowers, and that's what makes you uniquely great. You turn that into your value proposition that you convey to the Personas and your audience. And all of this gets really technical. And a lot of those terms you've probably heard being in the marketing and social media space. But engagement strategy pulls all of that together so that your fundraising is more, your fundraising strategy is more targeted. Your marketing strategy knows where to focus, what messages to focus on, because it frames up all of it. I can probably give you an example or be more specific, but the idea is that it's about increasing the opportunity for people to participate in your mission through donations, through volunteer time, through advocacy, through committee service. All the ways that people can support. Yep, all the ways they can. The myriad of ways that they can actually show that they believe in your cause and they trust you and they have affinity for you and they support you. So we're going into, I mean, there's so many different things happening. So as we're recording this, it's an election year and there might be an economic downturn and there's inflation and there's all of these different news headlines. What are some of the things like, what do you see as the biggest challenges facing nonprofits right now in terms of supporter engagement? One of the biggest challenges, I think, across the nonprofit sector, and probably has always been there, is something that we're actually hearing a lot of conversation about right now, is the scarcity mindset that very often in the nonprofit space, we think that we need to find new and more new ideas, is like this eternal, perpetual hamster wheel we're just always running, looking for the next new donor, the next new board member, the next new. And while there's absolutely a need and a place for prospecting and quality prospect research, if that's the only place we're looking, I feel like that's really coming from that scarcity mindset. We're never going to have enough. I really believe that probably has been and still is the single biggest challenge. And I believe that engagement strategy really helps address that because it's about developing longer term relationships. It's not just about developing relationships, about long term relationships with your current supporters. There's a way to deepen that, strengthen it and broaden it, those relationships. And that only happens when you can pause, kind of look up and notice all the great things that are happening around you. When you look up, you remember your vision, which I would like to think most people are thinking about, but I would put money on the table. Most are thinking about mission, and mission is work, and work is important, but we have to remember why we're doing the work. So when you pause and look up, you can have an abundance mindset and see all the people already supporting your work because they believe in the goals you're trying to achieve. It's really easy, right, to get bogged down in the doom and gloom or when your head's down, to think that you just have one. Your email inbox with 700 emails. Right, right. All the emails and the to do lists and the day to day. Sorry, I could probably go on and on about that, but I'd be a broken record. No, I talk a lot about that, too. And I'm so glad you brought up the scarcity mindset, because it's something that I rally against. And I think we were just so conditioned in this sector to accept that we'll, or think that we'll never have enough. There's not enough to go around. We have to be fighting for scraps. We can't make any money. We can't get good benefits. I mean, we could talk for days about the scarcity mindset, but I do agree it's a hindrance. So if we're going to get out of this scarcity mindset. Right. You have a unique framework that you've created. And I love a good alliteration. It's called. And I love a good framework, too. It's called map move measure. So tell us about how this was created and how it helps nonprofits to go, like, beyond, just, like, having their strategic plan that sits on a shelf, you know, like, how does it actually make things actionable for them? Sure. So map move measure really came out of the fact that the engagement strategy we talked about earlier is big, and it can feel heavy. The word strategy alone can feel heavy. It can be really intimidating. And so I was thinking about this and thinking about it, and map move measure is a framework. And so what it is, is it's a framework which if you really break that word down, I think of a framework as guardrails, and guardrails are meant to keep you safe and keep you on the road, heading in the direction you intended. Right. It doesn't mean you can't take turns or enjoy the view or have different experiences along the way. Everyone in the car could have a different experience, but those guardrails keep you going in the right direction. And that's what map move measure does. And so as a framework, you asked me how I came up with it. So what I did is I thought about the components of engagement strategy, and the really important bookends of it are theory of change and the engagement pyramid. Now, I didn't create, I didn't make up theory of change. That would be ridiculous to claim that I did. So you can go to the center of theory of change, like theoryofchange.org, and learn all about it. Super academic. So while I'm a great student, I really don't love being in school. I like applying my knowledge. So what I did was also pull the best of theory of change. And in my opinion, the best is the outcomes pathway. So, a vision map. So, a vision map is a pragmatic theory of change. You start with your vision statement. And again, I believe most, if not all, nonprofits have vision statements. And I would argue that they are lofty and aspirational, as they should be, and they're not unique, and they're probably not going to be achieved by one organization alone. So, like a world without homelessness or a world without hunger, something like that is the vision. Exactly right. A vision is a state of being that doesn't exist today. It's the outcome of your work. It's the result. It's the change you want to create in the world. So a world without poverty doesn't exist. But it's our vision that it is. So what the vision map does, though, is it says, oh, my gosh, that's so big and heavy, right? Our vision is huge. We slap an accountability ceiling right across there, and an accountability says, let's step below that and say, my nonprofit will be accountable for creating these specific outcomes. So no matter how big or small or no matter how much funding you have, your work will result in some sort of change. So we articulate the change that leads to your vision. So, to me, the vision map is the idea of these outcomes work toward your vision, and they are outcomes we can be accountable for. So that's the map. The move is, how are we inviting people to participate in achieving these goals with us? Because we know there's people who want to do that. Inviting people. Let's talk about that word. Not forcing them, not coercing them, not. Convincing them, not getting them, inviting them, not even asking. Right. It's offering and inviting. I like to think that way. So there's lots of ways people can become involved. So how are they moving with you to achieve the goals on your map. And then the measure is the engagement pyramid, which we already talked about. I learned from other incredibly smart people. And what I did is with the engagement pyramid, what that really is, is about saying not everybody has enough time to be on your board. Not everybody has enough money to be a, quote, major donor. Not everybody can volunteer every single week, but all the people who care about your mission and want to achieve the same goals as you probably have something to offer. So when you can measure that and know how they've been engaging with you, you know the right offer to make to the right people at the right time. And that's what matmovemeasure does. It helps you center all your conversations around shared goals, and it helps you make the right offer based on how engaged that supporter has shown they wish to be. And how are you leveraging data in this process? Data is in the measurement. You can only measure what you track. So in your CRM, you probably have a lot of contact records. Some way you record that. I know Julia, I know Beth, I know whomever. You have all the people who participate, and you're probably also logging in that they made a gift or that they volunteered with you. All those entries in your CRM, what we do is we add a value called the engagement level. So the pyramid lines up all of those interactions and assigns the engagement level. Engagement levels range from things like observing and being aware to contributing and endorsing and leading. That's the work I do with my nonprofit clients is say, how do you feel about all of the ways people are involved with you, and what level would you assign to that? So when Julia volunteers, is she interacting with you at the level of contributor? Is she acting as a leader? And that pyramid is tapping the data so that, think of it as another contact attribute that you can use in segmentation. Right. People are always like, let me segment my donors. Yes. Well, then that's only based on dollar amounts given in a year. But you can say, let me segment based on what level of engagement they've achieved in addition to their donation history. And now you might have, because they're also a board member. I've got my hands waving for all the people who can't actually see me because I'm usually writing or drawing while I'm talking and I'm imagining because the pyramid is three dimensional. Yes. And people interact. So a board member is also a donor, could also be a volunteer. As a board member, they're at the leader level of engagement. My guess is you've recorded the fact that they're a board member in your CRM, you've recorded the donations they've made, you record those volunteer actions. That's how we do it. We run reports and we tap the data and we see what level they've achieved, and you factor that into your messaging. So, I mean, the fundraiser, like everything that's on the plate of today's fundraiser, I think the tendency becomes, like you just said, new. More. How can we move from transactional interactions to meaningful human connection? I would recommend starting with the, you said earlier, affinity. Right? Every. So if you're a fundraiser and you're thinking about the conversation you're about to have, if you don't already know your donors affinity to the organization, you could broaden that and think about which of the goals on your vision map are they most aligned with. When you break your vision down to more tangible outcomes. Some people, you know, you think about different areas of work. There's different ways to achieve that, right? So some people may have an affinity to actual housing. Some people may have the affinity to the education programs you do for the people that you're providing housing for. And those are two really different outcome. They're different ways of getting involved. So meaningful relationships, I think, are grounded not only on trust, I think we can all agree it has to start with trust. But if they're already supporting you, they've demonstrated that. I think that's a great way to use that vision map is what goals do they feel most aligned with? And then ask them, how would they like to contribute? You might learn about the fact that they have a skill or they have a colleague or someone in their network who can contribute in ways you didn't even notice or know about before. And then what you've done is invite them to participate in ways they want to without you just asking for something specific before you've explored that. How do we sort of make this a system? So we want every donor to have an individual donor journey, but obviously that's not scalable or have an individual donor experience. So how do we sort of create these donor experiences and journeys with all of our donors or our donor segments without it becoming maybe too cumbersome? When you've designed an engagement pyramid, I use that as a. An example of journeying through it. So if you knew somebody was interacting with you a specific way, right, like they've made their first gift and, you know, you want to basically offer them an opportunity to stay where they're at, to step back a little bit or step up. So the way I say is you do things in threes. We hear that a lot, right? Don't ever ask more than three things. Don't send an email with more than three bullet points. You know, it's sort of like the wisdom of three. And so stepping back would be when you thank them for their gift. Although I suppose if, you know, I was really an expert in fundraising. Right. You don't ask for a gift when you're thanking them for the gift, but when you're communicating with a donor and you know that how much they've donated in the past, you can solicit another gift, but you can also offer them the opportunity to read something that you've post it on your blog or in your e newsletter to keep them aware of the particular issue they were interested in when they made the gift. That's stepping back. That's not giving their time, that's giving their attention. But stepping up would be inviting them to either, say, a volunteer event or even a social event, because now they're showing up in person, so they're giving their time. Right. So that's where the engagement pyramid, by defining the level as what that supporter is giving of themselves, are they giving their attention? Are they giving their time? Are they giving their money? Are they giving leadership? Each of those is increasing in engagement. So wherever they're at, allow them an opportunity to step back, stay where they're at, or step up. That feels very personal to the supporter. Yes, but you can do that across your entire supporter base when you track and measure the data. I think this is so important, and it goes with my theme for this year, which is my word of the year's intention, trying to get not only myself, but the nonprofits I serve, to be more intentional and less reactive and be more proactive. And this is absolutely like that. Rather than just say, oh, my gosh, what are we going to send out to our entire email newsletter this week and create something and write it off the cuff in five minutes and then send it out. You're actually being incredibly intentional and having these meaningful interactions and communication with your supporters with the purpose to meet them where they're at, but also encourage them to take the next step. Absolutely. And taking that a step further or bringing it back to the framework, that idea of that segmenting the communications, and not sort of, you know, what is it? Spraying and praying. Right. But the segmentation, the engagement level, lets you do that in a different way. So a lot of times I'm told that what this work does or this framework does is help people think about what they're already doing, but think about it in a new way, in a different way than they've ever thought about it before. So even segmenting your list, I was working with an organization that was in, like, environmental conservation, and there was a lot of interest in the community around single use plastic. So they were going to do this campaign to educate and try and reduce single use plastic. Now think about, if you're on the board of directors of that organization, do you need to be told why that's important and that you should just stop using plastic? Probably not, right. You're a board member and you already know. So the message to a board member about single use plastic might be more about how they can share the information with the organizations they work for. But the people on the e newsletter list who haven't made a donation or volunteered yet might need to be educated, right. So the message is different based on how engaged the supporter is. So that engagement level can really inform communications and segmenting in ways. Right, that we haven't even thought about before. Just looking at it spurs new ideas. How can we get our board members involved in supporter engagement? Well, one would hope they are, because they're on the board. One would hope. One would hope. But the way to help them get even more involved is I often, I believe that the board and the leadership team is where the vision map work belongs, because it's very much, you know, going back to a strategic plan. It's very much about the organization's direction, like, where are we heading? What are the big goals? And I think that a vision map actually will help board members have conversations with supporters more comfortably, if that's a word, right, more easily. Because when you break that vision down and you have more tangible, shorter term outcomes, even board members can say they align most with certain outcomes on that map. And they can say, yeah, I really want to focus my conversations in this area. This is where I'm really comfortable, and I happen to know my friends are, or I'm my network. So they can lock in on a specific one, two, or three of the outcomes on that map, which makes it more personal. So when board members feel more aligned with those outcomes, it's just easier to talk about something that you really, really believe in. So even though we all believe in the vision and we all believe in the mission, it can be too big. And then I think it's the nonprofit leader's job to look at their supporter base and create lists of supporters by engagement level that align with that board members goals alignment as well, so that they're reaching out to people we already know care the most about the same things. So I do think it's always a partnership between staff and board to be most successful. Where should really small nonprofits start with this? Either they might have a strategic plan. Maybe they are just starting with a CRM. Maybe they're just starting out. Where do you suggest they start first? With supporter engagement. I've thought a lot about this because I think the smaller organizations, I hope that you don't feel overlooked if you're running a small organization. But we also know that we already talked about it, right. We're all forced to live in this scarcity mindset. So when you're small, everything's even scarcer. I think the most effective place to start is truly with a vision map, because that helps absolutely everybody. And it doesn't require specific technology, it doesn't require any new tools. Right. All it requires is the team getting together, having a cross functional conversation, invite a couple board members and saying, in order to achieve our vision, really, what is our work going to achieve that moves us toward that? Let's think about the work we do. Let's name the outcomes, name the results of the work we're doing, how those build on each other to achieve our vision. As an example, I actually had this experience recently. I was working with the leader of a very small nonprofit, and she said, we just don't have enough resources to do this full framework. But could you work with us in a strategy session? And in one three hour session with the board of directors and the staff, we introduced the vision map. And within minutes, one of the members there said, I feel like I've been thinking about our work all wrong. I. About the number of kids we serve all the time. And what I should be talking about is the impact our work is making. Yes. And so we took their vision and we started breaking it down to outcomes. And almost instantly, there was a shift in how they were thinking about what they do every single day, and everyone paused and was able to look up. So I really believe vision mapping can have an impact on an organization that even I don't always expect. I watch it happen, and it's just such a beautiful thing. It's a lot of what we do on the school board, and I'm a school board member, and we constantly philosophically disagree on the role of a school board member. But I believe it's what you said. It's the strategic vision, the plan, the seeing the forest for the trees. The big picture. It's not necessarily I'm talking as a board member, not a staff member, getting into the weeds and dictating what type of paper you put in the printer. That's just not my role. So I think that board members, I agree. I also agree that a lot of board members probably don't really know the why or they understand it, but they've never really articulated it or had it articulated to them. And they're so focused on numbers because maybe they're business people. So they're very focused on the spreadsheets and the financials and the numbers and the outputs, where what you're talking about is really about outcomes and impact and legacy. I really think that is so valuable. I got the chills listening to you say that, which so real quick little anecdote. It's a little woo woo. But I love starting a session like what I described by having the vision statement written, whether it's flip chart or whiteboard or whatever. And then I ask everyone to close their eyes, and I've asked somebody in advance and I invite them to read the vision out loud. So everyone has their eyes closed and they're hearing the vision statement read. And we pause and we read it again. And it's so powerful. Focusing on vision first and then thinking about how the mission gets you there is just, it's a perspective I feel nonprofit leaders probably don't feel they have the luxury to do. They don't have time to look up and think about these things. And that's that shifting away from scarcity to abundance. But again, when you hear your vision statement read to you, you internalize it in a way that's different than when you just read it yourself. So where can people find you and learn more about you and work with you? I'm sure there are going to be lots of interest after this podcast. My website, first of all, and everything is my name. So bethsundersassociates.com is my website, and I love connection and meaningful connections. So LinkedIn is where I hang out and you can find me there really easily as Beth Saunders as well. Yes, and I downloaded the free guide that you have on your website. So if you go to, I believe it's bethsondersassociates.com and you can download a free guide, sign up for the newsletter and get a lot of great free resources there. So I encourage everyone to do that. Thanks so much, Beth, for being on the podcast, sharing your wisdom. I appreciate being here. Thank you. Have a great day. Julia. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review, because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then, you can find me on instagram. Uliacampbell 77 keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn coins.