Season 7 Episode 2: How to Take Care of Yourself During Tough Times

We all have them - difficult situations are a part of life.  Whether it's a sick child, a struggling relationship, a divorce, or stressful work, it's important to take care of yourself while you're experiencing difficult seasons of life.  Where are you putting your energy?  Who are you spending time with?  Are you able to ask for help?

In honor of Pediatric Cancer Awareness month, in this episode Master Certified Life Coach Melissa Wiggins joined the Well2You Podcast, hosted by wellness coaches and Pilates instructors Sue McCarroll and Caitlin Hatzenbuhler to recount how she made it through her son, Cannon's, cancer diagnosis and treatment, and how we can all take better care of ourselves when Life throws the hard fast balls our way.  Grab a cuppa and listen in.

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Hello, lassies and lads. Welcome to another amazing episode of Coaching and a Cup of Tea with Mummabear. It has been a crazy couple of weeks there is a lot going on, in MelissaWiggins.life and my company. I've got a lot to tell you lassies and lads. But before all of that, which is probably going to be an update in the next episode, I wanted to share an interview I did with well to you podcast with my good friend Sue McCarroll and her co host, Caitlin. So they are on a mission to be rebels on the diet culture, they are all about everything wellness, pilates, like they're just the most incredible souls. And they interviewed me all about pediatric cancer because September is pediatric cancer awareness month. So I have been speaking at schools, and events all about pediatric cancer, the impact of it, and our foundation, cannonball kids cancer.  So I don't talk about the foundation a lot on this podcast, because we are a life coaching podcast. But it's difficult for me not to talk about my life in September, when pediatric cancer is a huge part of my daily in this time, so I wanted to share it. I know you're going to love it. It's all about what do you do to take care of yourself when you're in a tough situation? So many of us have a lot of things that are going on, maybe you're going through something with your child, maybe you're going through a divorce. Maybe you're having a hard time with someone in your family or setting boundaries, whatever it is, how do you take care of yourself and those situations? So that's what this episode is all about. It has literal things you can do tangible takeaways, you know, that's my thing. And it's also a super fun episode and you're going to love it.

Find the FULL Transcript here: Season 7 Episode 2: How to Take Care of Yourself During Tough Times

Transcript

Melissa Wiggins:
Hello, lassies and lads. Welcome to another amazing episode of Coaching and a Cup of Tea with Mummabear. It has been a crazy couple of weeks there is a lot going on, in MelissaWiggins.life and my company. I've got a lot to tell you lassies and lads. But before all of that, which is probably going to be an update in the next episode, I wanted to share an interview I did with well to you podcast with my good friend Sue McCarroll and her co host, Caitlin. So they are on a mission to be rebels on the diet culture, they are all about everything wellness, pilates, like they're just the most incredible souls. And they interviewed me all about pediatric cancer because September is pediatric cancer awareness month. So I have been speaking at schools, and events all about pediatric cancer, the impact of it, and our foundation, cannonball kids cancer. 

So I don't talk about the foundation a lot on this podcast, because we are a life coaching podcast. But it's difficult for me not to talk about my life in September, when pediatric cancer is a huge part of my daily in this time, so I wanted to share it. I know you're going to love it. It's all about what do you do to take care of yourself when you're in a tough situation? So many of us have a lot of things that are going on, maybe you're going through something with your child, maybe you're going through a divorce. Maybe you're having a hard time with someone in your family or setting boundaries, whatever it is, how do you take care of yourself and those situations? So that's what this episode is all about. It has literal things you can do tangible takeaways, you know, that's my thing. And it's also a super fun episode and you're going to love it. Like I love doing it. So without further ado, enjoy the episode.

Sue McCarroll  02:57

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of The Well2You Podcast. Today we have Melissa Wiggins. She is a Scotland native and possibly one of my best friends currently residing in Orlando, Florida. She's a proud mom of five and advocate for change in pediatric cancer. She holds a law degree from the prestigious University of Glasgow and worked as a commercial litigator prior to moving to Orlando in 2010, where she gained court experience and a background in advocacy. When her firstborn son cannon James rolling Wiggins was diagnosed with stage four cancer and she was about to give birth to her twins her full time calling for three and a half years became saving her son's life. Melissa and her husband Michael founded cannonball kids cancer, a nonprofit pediatric cancer research foundation in 2015. Kenan his cancer journey survivorship and her family's experience inspired her to write her first book, thankful for the fight, in which she shares her family's heartbreaking inspiring cancer battle. In addition to advocate, lawyer, boss and wife Melissa proudly wears the hats of stepmom, bio mom, adoptive mom and most recently, grandmother all by 36. Melissa is now a lawyer turned master certified coach and has since worked with countless women encouraging and empowering them to become the best versions of themselves, or as she likes to say helping them get ripped on the inside so that their insides match their outsides. Welcome, Melissa. Welcome.

Melissa Wiggins  04:40

Well, thank you. Wow, that's a lot. Wow, that's Parson going on. Like I don't know, that was that me, or did you make some of that?

Sue McCarroll  04:57

Was you and I actually even laughed a little bit At the end, because I was like, wow, this is really long, I can only read for so long. So, we have you here today for a couple of reasons. Number one, September is childhood cancer awareness month. And as a huge supporter of CPAC. I always love to do something in September. So the Welty podcast community is going to be raising some money for see Casey, during this month. And another reason that we brought you here is to talk about how you manage to survive, keep your health, whatever you needed to do to get through that time that you went through, so that possibly our listeners could learn from that. And before we kind of get started with questions, even though you were on the podcast before, can you give us just like a tiny, brief rundown of what you went through with Kenan. And then kind of where you are now with your kids and your business. And then we'll kind of go from there. We do have that other episode. But you know how many who are going to like click all the way back right to listen to that again. So here we go.

Melissa Wiggins  06:10

Yeah, thank you so much. First of all, Caitlin and sue for having me and supporting cannonball kids cancer, which as you know, is my whole heart. I just love cannonball kids cancer and September's pediatric cancer awareness month. So I've got yellow on basically, I will wear yellow for the whole entire month. But so yeah, I'm really excited to be here. Kenan was diagnosed when he was 20 months old. And, you know, I shared a little bit about that in the last episode that we did together. But he was my firstborn child. So I was like a new mom, I was a stepmom to an older child, but I'd never sort of had a young child, a one and a half year old. And he started having like, problems with his legs. And you know, the pediatrician was like, Oh, he probably just bruised it, he's a boy, say TRA. And at that time, I was pregnant with my twin boys. So I was about to have some more children. And I remember, we ended up in the ER, because he had stopped walking. And they said, you know, we think he has sort of an infection in his knee, and we're going to do some surgery on his knee. And I remember like, at that time, Sue, and Caitlin, just thinking, like, this is the worst thing in the actual world, my kid's going to be in a cast, I'm going to have twin newborns, I still have like a four door car. Like I just remember, like, all these crazy things in my brain being like, this is just too terrible. And then I could see the doctor who was going to do the surgeon talking on the phone, and I guess they had got some blood work back that wasn't in line with, you know, a child having an infection. And they said, you know, we're gonna have some different doctors come see Kenan and one of those doctors was an oncologist, and they confirmed late that evening that they believe can and to have stage four neuroblastoma. And that the didn't predict that he would really live beyond five years. So I like you know how excited I get about birthdays and celebrating the crap out of that kid, like the most loyal child on the planet? Yeah, he just celebrated 11 years old. And so to think back to him being almost two, and now being 11, you know, and yesterday suffering with his brothers and annoying his little sister, you know, we're just in a completely different space. And when you sent the questions that you sent to me, you know, I was really trying to think like, what was it like being, you know, back there with that situation? Because it's not like I lived there very often, right? It was like, such a painful time in our life that I don't like to live there too much. You know,

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  08:59

I think also, you know, like you said, like, motherhood in general is already so hard and daunting. And then you think about like, oh, my gosh, you know, my kids going to be in a cast and have these newborns, that seems so huge. And then it was just so much more than than that. But as moms, we always just kind of do what we have to do to survive. But you know, I think in these extreme circumstances, almost looking back and like you don't want to live in that moment, but also celebrating how you did do what you had to do to just make it through and survive and care for your family. And it's not always great to celebrate just burning ourselves. But looking back and going, You know what, I just I did what I had to do. So that's why, you know, I'm also really excited to have you on the podcast, whether our listener has like a very sick child or a child going through this or just feeling like they're in a really daunting place, sharing some of the tips that you experienced or went through to just care for yourself when you're going through that, you know, extreme time.

Melissa Wiggins  10:11

Yeah, I think like most mothers like we grow, right. Like as our children grow, I feel like we like shaved skin don't we like all of a sudden, like the stuff when they were won, we're not getting a band aid anymore. Okay, you're good. Like it's a little bit of blood next, compared to when they were younger, we started with a bowl. And I think when you have a sick child, you just get there much quicker soon. And I have talked at length about that she's probably ad nauseam, she's probably second me saying it, but I, you know, went into this journey as a young mom of one child in her 20s. And I came out with three young children and my 30s and I think, you know, that evolution and general as women being moms, like, we changed so much like I was such a people pleaser, I was so like, scared that the doctors would think I was dumb, or that I didn't know something. Or I remember my husband saying, you know, we're gonna get a second opinion on this thing. And I remember my literal first reaction, and I'm so embarrassed to even see it, but it's the truth was, well, I don't want to like upset the doctor and have them think that like, we don't like them. What? No, approaching my 40s I'm like, is that like your I'm gonna get four opinions. It's like, the the evolution, I feel like it just happened so much quicker than but I feel like all women get there. It's just when you have a sick child, you're like, catapulted, it's like Monopoly, you move on like a couple more than, you know, maybe someone who doesn't have a child who requires a lot.

Sue McCarroll  11:54

So I can remember some little things. And maybe I feel like maybe you remember more, and maybe you don't and, and I actually really appreciate that you're doing this with us, because I know that you don't really like to go back and live in that time. And I'm sort of asking you to do that texture poll eight. I that's not really a word, I don't think but there's another word that

Melissa Wiggins  12:15

will decide what you want to use.

Sue McCarroll  12:18

There's another word that sounds like that. That's accurate word. But like, I can remember simple things, like instead of sleeping in the chair that they leave in the hospital, you would bring an air mattress, and you would have your whole little setup, right. So I feel like some of those things that you were able to boil it down and grab onto the small things that would get you through it. And not to say you didn't come out on the other side tired and her and because it did it took a long time to build up. But I think those are some of the things that sort of helped get you through, but I don't know. I'm curious about your opinion.

Melissa Wiggins  12:55

Yeah, I mean, it I think myself here, sort of like, I don't know that I had one before, you know, Cannon was sick. And I just kept thinking if he is going to survive, he's going to require me to do like certain things. And I really, really felt that. And I'm not saying that to like, be dramatic. I really did feel like if I don't do some of these things, he just has no chance. And Michael and I both felt like that, like we just there was just certain things that we have to do. And I think that mental health part of it was huge. I was actually made a taping before this call, because I really was trying to put myself back into like, what was it like to be there? And I was thinking about how I would I don't know if you remember this, but I would never allow anybody to cry around. Can you do remember what she's nodding? People can't hear that. But Sue is noting which means she does remember which means she may have been one of those people that started to cry and I told them

Sue McCarroll  13:56

I don't think I did. I think I knew I think I knew but like I was like trying to hold it all together and doing some deep breathing of my own.

Melissa Wiggins  14:04

But like it's very it's it's a very tough situation to see a sick child, right? And then when you love the pair said the parent of that, it's just like double right? Like, I feel bad for the parent and the kid. And I wanted people to experience all of that but not around me. Like I couldn't be that source for them. And I think one of the things that I did very well from the beginning was I really protected my energy like massively I probably did it rigidly I probably which is why everyone calls me Mama Bear. No, I probably didn't do it in a very eloquent way. But it was like I just was very cutthroat about like, I can't communicate with everybody all the time. Right. So I had Ashley vandermark, who is a mutual friend of Sue and I sort of Look through text messages and phone calls and get back to the people that needed getting back to but didn't require me to like talk on the phone like that was one thing I did. And then the same like around can and like protecting his energy and like making sure you know that he only had positivity around them and you only have happy things around them instead of you know, sad people I was sorry to be like, you gotta leave the sad outside and come in here like this kid isn't, doesn't look like he's dying, right? Like, he's a regular kid. And I think, you know, I just made those boundaries, like very clear, I didn't even get social media until canon got sick, really, I started the social media journey with him because I didn't have time to get back to everyone who was asking because half my family was in Scotland, and then we had family here. So I think the number one thing when you have a sick child or a child that requires a lot of attention is really, really protecting the energy that you have. Because it would be easy to get on the phone and talk all day long to people about how they work and horrible as and terrible and then have nothing to give the child.

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  16:14

Yeah. Or to yourself. I mean, I think when you were saying you, you were like relentless with your boundaries, and not so eloquent. I mean, that takes energy from you just to put on you know, your happy face or to choose the right words or you know, that takes your own energy, that takes a lot of energy for us to transform into all of these different people that we are as moms and so you can't just expel all of your energy to the people around you that are there they care. But that's not your priority, your priority is being able to give your energy to your family and then to yourself and not choose the right words to not make people upset or feel bad. I feel like so

Sue McCarroll  17:00

I actually think that the reason that you and I became such good friends was because I was able to talk about everything except cancer. I was able to like joke and laugh. And I feel like that was actually what, what bonded us because people will ask me like, how did you do that? And I'm like, Well, I just, I just did stupid things like text you funny things my kids did all the time. And I think a lot of people would feel like that would be a bother. Right? But somehow I knew that that wasn't you know,

Melissa Wiggins  17:32

ya know, for sure. I remember. I remember specifically like saying to people, if they would ask me to go do something. Yes. But I don't want to talk about pediatric cancer. I remember being like a very, and I and you know, and I would say that. So the lesson are like, it's okay to see, yes, I want to hang out. But can we not talk about this really big hard thing in my life, because actually, I just like to feel like a normal woman. And I remember you picking me up with my twins for Christmas party. And Kenan was very, very sick, not like he was going to die. I wasn't leaving my dying child, but like he was very sick. And I remember my husband was with them. And you picking them up. And like, we didn't talk about anything paediatric counselor. And we went and I took those little five month old munchkins, you know, and we had a really nice time. And it was like a real Christmas party, and I dressed up in a Christmas dress. And I just remember so loving that feeling of normalcy. And like I would so say that to the lesson or go do something normal and just ask the people you're going with, please don't talk about this big thing, whether it's a sick child, or you know, and you can do that within reason, like you're having a hard time in your marriage. Okay, I don't want to talk about it. Like there's just, there's just something beautiful about being in friendships like ours, where you can see stuff like that. I'd like to talk about this thing, or I'd not like to talk about this thing, you know?

Sue McCarroll  19:10

Absolutely. Absolutely. I was thinking a lot. And I feel like I wanted Caitlyn to ask this question. But listeners, Caitlin is having some internet troubles. So she's actually not in the room with us right now. But I feel a little weird asking this question because I feel like I was one of the people there at the time. But because this podcast is all about women lifting up women, women's supporting women in a non judgmental way and sort of this community of just being real. And I know that this existed for you because I was there but how did the women in your life how were they a support system for you during that time coming out of that time? And what did that do for you?

Melissa Wiggins  19:54

You know, I like I actually have a podcast episode on asking for help because I As you know, that has always been something that's been very tough for me. And what I have found in coaching women know is that it's very hard for a lot of women to ask for help. So I would say to the listener, like, you literally have to just like take your ego, shove it to the say, and get over yourself and ask for help, right? I wasn't even as advanced in my growth, and I couldn't even ask for help. I literally couldn't see the words of it to a friend of mines, Ashley, literally setting me down with my, you know, humongous twin bomb, you know, they were still inside. And her saying I'm going to start a meal plan. And there's all these people who want to help. And I remember saying, absolutely not, I do not want anybody cooking food for us. I'll buy my own food, like, I'm good. And I remember her saying, oh, like, I'm not asking you, I'm electorally telling you that people want to help and you're going to have meals saved to your house. And honestly, like, you know, you know, know your room, like know the person you're dealing with, but like I needed that suit. Like I literally needed someone to be that bold and brave with me. And just so if you're listening and like maybe your friend is like me, like just make them do it.

Sue McCarroll  21:27

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. And I think that applies to like all different times in our lives. And I know some people are really good at asking for help and and others are not. And I definitely live in the camp of struggling to ask for help. I think for me, sometimes the work and get sort of getting the help set up feels like the hurdle. Caitlin's back, yay. Let's see how long it lasts. So Caitlyn, we're talking about the struggle that women have and asking for help. And I was talking, Melissa was talking about a friend of ours, who were like, sat her down during that time and was like, you will accept help. Not all

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  22:06

people. I wish that in motherhood in general, we had mom friends that would just do that, right? Just say like, you will accept help. But I don't know. I feel like you just don't know until you completely lose it and burnout. But I don't accept help. So I expect other people to accept my help when I offer it, but then I wouldn't do the same.

Sue McCarroll  22:30

Yeah. And what I was saying for me, like there's always like a hurdle, like, at least in terms of like the house, bringing someone in to help with the kids. The the amount of information that I have to like disseminate to them feels like a, like a burden in the way of getting help. And maybe it's just because it's not the right help. I don't know.

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  22:50

It's a little bit different. Because it's not, it wasn't a child. But when I had cancer, I I asked my husband, I said, What did you do to like, help maintain your health and sanity? When I was sick? He laughed at me. And he was like, my health like my sanity. But what No, what? No, like, it wasn't. And I looked back and I was like, oh, yeah, no, he like, he kind of lost it. He kind of like went off the register a little bit. And I think, you know, he didn't even like know, to ask for help, or people didn't even like know, to offer it to him. I think it was a lady a little bit different for a man, you know, versus a woman. I feel like my mom tribe, if the tables were turned, whether it was a child or him, you know, would be coming out of the woodworks to say, you know, how can I help? Whereas with in his case for me, that that wasn't even being offered to him at all. No, there was still the expectation that even though I was sick, I was still like caring for the family. So it was just a little, I don't know,

Melissa Wiggins  24:05

to do like a whole episode just on that. Like the fact that you are caring for the family and sick like makes me like that.

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  24:16

It's motherhood right though, so I couldn't even imagine that like during the time that that Kenan was sick too if you got a flu or a cold or whatever, like there was no downtime for you. There was no you know, healing time for you. It was the expectation is that we just keep going. Yep, that we just going it doesn't matter how sick you are. You just keep going. You just keep taking care of things. And we also kind of put that expectation on ourselves. It's like this society pressure that like becomes so deeply ingrained in us. No wonder it's so easy for us as as moms to break but then we can't show that or talk about it either.

Melissa Wiggins  24:58

Except on podcasts like this. swear we absolutely will talk about, like, I love it. That's what's so great about your podcast. Like it's so true and real. And I love it. It's just like, that's the point, right? Like, this is a safe space to be able to say, no, let's like shift the script on that, like, let's change that. Like, let's look at what we're responsible for. And what we're knowing. One of the things that always amazes sue that I, I went to recovery meetings like I'm sober, 13 years, right from, you know, abusing alcohol and I went to sobriety meetings, like every single day, I literally like someone either picked me up in my car took me away for an hour, or I found one and I walked there, and my husband took over with Ken and because you know, we like lift in the hospital. And I just knew, like, if I don't do that, then how am I going to be able to sit and research these different clinical trials? Like how am I gonna be able to clean up the vomit and I knew what was needed and what was required. And I just, like, feel like such an advocate for women like taking responsibility of like their own health, and I'm not any help to anyone, if I'm like in a rehab, or, you know, like, I like knew these things in my brain. And obviously, like, that's an extreme example, but like, it truly can happen.

Sue McCarroll  26:18

So now my question is, had you not been in recovery? Do you think you would have known you needed to take time away and you would have set it up? So other like, so, you know, Michael would come or somebody else would come to give you that break? Do you think you would have taken those breaks where you had you not needed to go to a meeting? No. So it's almost like it was a blessing.

Melissa Wiggins  26:41

Yeah, it was a couple of years, where I think I was like three or four years sober. And I was still you know, like, that's not a lot, right? Like, it was still new, right? I was in my 20s. I was new mom, like I was in a different country. I, you know, moved from Scotland to America. But I also like, was so blessed by like, incredible women in recovery, who, you know, my sponsor came to the hospital every single day. Yeah. Yeah. So

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  27:10

I think that that's a really great point that you had mentioned, the relationships that you had to build or lean on, or the relationships that you had to shed in order to make it through that time. And like, how, you know, how your perspective of those those friendships or those interactions helped get you through? Or you just said, like, I can't, like I can't with this, I have to remove myself from this interaction with this person. Yeah,

Melissa Wiggins  27:42

that for sure happened where actually, I worked full time when canon was diagnosed, I have my own company, and I had a full time help a nanny with Canon and she just like, couldn't handle it. Like she couldn't handle him sick. And she basically ghosted us like she disappeared. And she had worked with us for about a year. And it was just like, again, like back to kind of what we talked about. In the beginning, Caitlin is like, really getting very deliberate about my, my energy. And I knew like, I don't have the energy to figure out why she can't handle this or be mad about the fact she can't handle this or spend any energy trying to find her and say, like, what happened, like, none of that. And maybe I should give her a call. It's been like, you know, you know, but 10 years or something there, I don't know. But you sort of have to get like that. Like, I'll talk about like, highlight and delete a lot. And like, for me, it just became this like, Alright, here's a good part of Canada's day. Here's the part I have to delete and like next, and I know that survival mode, but there are a lot of people that can't handle sick children, and that's okay. You just, you know, like, it's vain. It's just like, Don't spend your energy wondering why because it's about them. Like, not you.

Sue McCarroll  29:00

Yeah, yeah. So were there any things that maybe didn't feel like the super healthiest things, but that you sort of made a conscious decision that you just needed those in your life to get buy? Soda and chocolate?

Melissa Wiggins  29:15

No, actually, I am really proud to say that I haven't had sugar in like 20 days or flour, but amazing. No, I don't I haven't drank soda in like four plus years now. But when Kenan was sick Yes, like 100 person dead I eat salads and good food too. Yes. But um, I survived on way too much coffee, lots of Diet Coke. And like, you know, like food from like McDonald's. You know, people would bring like even even in the hospital you know, when they have those like people bring in the food like it's like all of garden or you know, like pee So like, there was nothing green, I don't think I green for a law, you know, like, I do know. But yeah, and it was the same with Ken and like, I couldn't get any of that good stuff. And hence that, you know, no, he eats amazing. But at the time, the chemotherapy and you'll know this Caitlyn from having cancer, like it changes your taste buds. And so things taste different. And he lost so much weight and was on a feeding tube that it was like any time we had the opportunity to feed him, it was just whatever he wanted, you know? Yeah, yeah. And I just say the leftovers basically. So,

Sue McCarroll  30:37

so now, when Caitlin was talking before about, like, motherhood and how, like, you know, we can't stop and the way that our culture is, I feel like your gears, your coaching gears are probably turning. So talk to us about, you know, when you're coaching women, now, women going through having a child with cancer, or women, you know, struggling with a change in jobs, or women dealing with aging parents, or whatever, all the gamut of the hard things that life throws at us. What how do you coach women to handle that? And kind of come out on the other side, not depleted? And in a good headspace? Yeah, I

Melissa Wiggins  31:19

mean, I think that it's just too easy to like, add it to the pile of like shaming ourselves, right? That we're not good enough, or we can't do enough or like let's do more. And most of the time, like when people are like burning out or overdoing it. It's like my job as I see it, to start to dig down into like the why of that, and just help them get very curious about why they do some of the things that they do. Right. Like it's it would take me probably a month to dig down on like that call man that right? Like about how you feel about that with motherhood, right. Like there's a lot of work in there. But I would do it from like a standpoint of like, let's just stop shaming ourselves about why do I keep doing this? Or why am I like, and instead get really curious about whether it's helpful to think that way? Is that something I maybe want to read, say? Like, is it true? And so if you burn out, because you have family come in and tell you, let's just say right, and you're getting your house ready, because it has to be perfect for the inlaws. Right. Like I might dig down onto like, why it has to be perfect for the animals or like, who's going to notice if you've done the 17th load of laundry. And I think just restating some of those thoughts, because like Caitlin said, she makes such a good point, which that's just like how we believe we have to act and be in society. And the reality is, like, if we want to shift away from that, we have to kind of dig down a little bit of our story and take away from like the big picture of all women, all people in motherhood and be like, no, like, what about me Sue McCarroll like, what about me? Caitlin? What? Why am I doing it? Is it because I really want my mother in law to like me, and I think she doesn't she doesn't think I'm that smart. So let me just act real smart. Why am I doing it? And then when you dig down into that, they're not shaming yourself or things like that come up, like, yeah, I want her to like me, and I don't think she does. I still learn golden child boy. And no, she just not that nice to me. Right? Like, you know, and just getting really honest with yourself about some of that, from the perspective of where do I want to be in a year right? The next time she comes to my house, and a year do I want to feel this, we be this way, at best way. And FYI doing like legs to get with her figure out how maybe you do want to show up.

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  33:51

I think that's such a really great point. But I also think that we have to be in a place to have that, like introspection. And, you know, we've talked, I've talked about this with Sue on on previous episodes that like I'm kind of going through that journey now. But this is not something I could have even done a year ago of being in that mindset to tap into those questions that need to needed to be asked. And so I imagined with you to Melissa, like when you were in the depths of the fight, that wasn't something you could even think about or ask yourself because you were like hyper focused on one thing, but just like sharing with our listeners that we go through seasons, Sue and I have talked about this so many times like we go through seasons in life and sometimes that season is you are just like in it with your sick child or your sick parent or your sick relationship with your spouse or whatever. For like, that's where you're at. And there will be a season, you just need to be open to receiving it, that you can all of a sudden, say I don't, I am open to asking these questions about doing things differently, changing those thoughts, those feelings, those patterns, those habits, but it's not something we can do all the time. And not feeling guilty about that, like when you are in it, you're in it. And that's where you are. And that's where you're needed in that moment. And then when you have that moment to step away from it, and and ask yourself those deeper questions as far as why do I do these things, then that's your time to do that, too. Because I imagine probably when Kanan was very, very sick. Were you doing that is like were you did you find yourself the opportunity to do that?

Melissa Wiggins  35:55

I look at it like it's the pre workout, right? Like you're doing all of the things where you're having like, hard conversations with a doctor in you're standing up to a nurse who's maybe tried to poke your kids six times and hasn't got an end? And you're learning skills at that time? Do you feel like it? It is? No, but you 100% are right, like standing up to a nurse and saying, Okay, you're, you're done. No, you can leave and you can bring in someone else to try to get blood from him. Right? Like, or having a conversation with a doctor about, you know, what kind of clinical trial and asking questions and not feeling like, I want to want to ask this because like, what appease offended, like, you're building up that muscle and I think resilience that when you do dig into the questions, you're ready to do that. I also do you feel like with most people, you have to be at a certain point of pain to do the work, right? Like you have to be like I am no longer willing to be walked over by my mother in law, I am no longer going to be codependent to my husband. You have to feel that we so deeply that you're willing to like pull up the scabs and figure out like the why. But when you're no one does that child I'm it's like a pre workout. It's like you're stretching, you're like getting ready to go.

Sue McCarroll  37:21

So along those lines, and because I know from being friends with you and being involved with cannonball, kids cancer for so long, and having conversations with many parents who've gone through this journey with sick kids, the statement, everything happens for a reason, or God has its plan can sometimes be said, and like really not be helpful at all in that moment. So as you talk about, like, it's the pre workout. How did you like how did you kind of come about that shift to look at it that way?

Melissa Wiggins  37:55

I think it's like retrospectively looking back, right? Like I said, I was in my 20s It was my first kid. You know, like most most clients, like most people, I feel like are ready when they get in their 30s they have like a couple of kids under their bail. And they're like, oh, wait, like, I want to like figure out how to do life also. And like have a business like you guys do have a podcast, but also be a good mom. But the time you know, absolutely no it like I said, you know, I'm figuring out, you know how my kids not going to die? And again like that when people would say things I would really try not to be irritated by it. Because I know that people really do mean well like they're not saying it to be mean spirited. Like they're really know what. And I would just say to the listener again, like where are you putting your energy? Are you going to for the next two hours bench with your husband about how someone say something that like doesn't quite hit the mark? Or are you gonna like focus on your sick child, right? Like it's, it really became like that for me. And so I think if anyone's around you trying to help you, like be genuinely are trying to help you because being around someone with a sick child is very hard.

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  39:15

Yeah, Melissa, everything you're saying reminds me of each of the four agreements in the book, The Four Agreements, I really like all these things that you're saying feel like you have made those agreements with yourself, you have absorb those for our listeners, if you haven't read The Four Agreements, you absolutely should, but being impeccable with your word and not speaking badly about yourself or others, or you know the situation with your child or you know, just learning that that word has power and how you feel and that energy that it brings to, like you said, you can't be sad in this room that you you have to you know, bring that difference. kind of energy, even if it's in your mental energy in the words, you're speaking to yourself, and then not making assumptions, and you know, not taking things personally, it becomes so freeing when you do that, and how you're explaining, you know, what you went through just out of necessity, you know, and then just always doing your best. It, I think that you are a great example of just embodying those four agreements to live your life a little bit freer than the burden of carrying that weight, in addition to the other things that you're going through, just like as you're seeing this, and like, wow, she's really got this like, she's really got

Melissa Wiggins  40:45

Walmart, oh, my clients read that book. And I have a whole module on it's not about you. Because it really isn't right. Like when someone says a certain comment, like, it's so easy to be like, Oh, that's so personal. How could they say that, but you know, when you start doing some of this work, you really start to learn that people's reactions are really about them, and not you. And that's like, that's a beautiful thing, right? But it just takes layers. So like, if you have a sick child, like just, oh, it's like pre workout, you got it, like, Hold on tight, you'll get you'll get the ABS soon. Welcome.

Sue McCarroll  41:24

So can you give us for a woman going through any kind of struggle like and we all know, like, there is no picture perfect. So everybody's dealing with something. I mean, that's really the truth. Like if we want to speak the truth, it doesn't matter. And most often, the person who looks the happiest on social media is the person hiding what's going on behind the scenes. And so I think by bringing to the forefront that we are all struggling at times, like it's life, like life is always going to be throwing something at us. So what are your three or if you want to go for whatever this is that this is a, this is an average, it's not an exact number thing that you would tell your clients or tell a client, any client how to deal with that?

Melissa Wiggins  42:12

How to deal with life? Yeah.

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  42:19

Which you're like, beautiful in your lemon color today. So when life throws you lemons, lemons, lemons, lemons, no matter how extreme and bitter, they are, some more than others, you know, how how to deal with that?

Melissa Wiggins  42:36

Sure. The first thing that's coming to me is just like taking radical responsibility for like my own life, like my own joy, like I totally believe that happiness is the journey, not the destination, right? Like, and I do believe you can be happy, even in difficult circumstances, like there are so many times when Kenan was sick, that I have amazing memories, like, really happy memories with Sue and her kids going places like there are so many pieces of it. And so I would just say that, like don't wait for the joy to be at the end with your sick child. Unfortunately, you know, I've been to more kids funerals than I have adults, doesn't always end the way we think it should and assist same for others, right? Like we don't, not to be morbid, but we don't know when our last day is right. And so like, instead of waiting, in fact, I did a post about this today, instead of like waiting to retirement waiting to the weekend waiting to the vacation literally choosing like, how am I going to find joy like to date? Like somewhere today? Like, what is that going to be? For me, it's going to be in like 30 minutes picking up a bouncy four year old who will like run into my arms, right? And then who will probably take to Starbucks and buy something she shouldn't eat, right? Like that's like, where are you going to find it doesn't have to be like, all day long, but like, find it in the end the hard times. That's probably like the number one. And then number two would be not to take anything personal, which, you know, Caitlyn mentioned the Four Agreements read that book. It's like one of my favorites. I make all my clients read it. But the most important one in there for me is like not taking things personally and knowing that, you know, people are all going through something right 100% I'm going through a very hard situation personally right now, but I'm showing up and I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing right for my kids and for the important people in my life. And so I think that that's really, really important. And number three would be Who are you around? Right? That is huge. Especially hello if you are me or Sue and I don't know about you Caitlyn. Massive empaths I can feel every piece of tension and every single room my stomach will go rock hard, I feel it. And sometimes like being able to know that is like really good news. ollege but who are you around not being around someone that tightens your stomach or you know, gives you like a chest pain? Who is your group of people that like, bring you joy most of the time? Who will uplift you and also like, as a woman make you want to be better? One of the reasons my relationship with Sue is so important to me is because she will say, Oh, you could you can do this, like, she will be real with me if I'm not doing something and vice versa. Like it's not, you know, start a cupcake relationship, right? It's like a real one. And so that would be my number three.

Sue McCarroll  45:39

So I was laughing as I was asking some of the questions because I felt like I should preface to listeners, because it may be sounded like I was asking you some really hard questions. But Melissa is the person that sort of shows up in my life and makes me do really hard things. So I feel like it's even it's okay, so don't feel like

Melissa Wiggins  45:58

I made her whitewater raft. Yes, me hard questions.

Sue McCarroll  46:02

Really not excited about that. I'm gonna be honest, but I actually had a great time. But I was I was very nervous.

Melissa Wiggins  46:10

You were nervous, but you did it right, start before you're ready. That's like the model of my life. Start before you're ready. Always, every time I did

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  46:20

I need to take that advice, too. I mean, that's the thing about this podcast, too, is I feel like the people that we have had on this podcast, will sue is that person for me. And then also, the guests we have on this podcast, they are becoming this like, inner voice for me, maybe more so than like a group of friends would. And that's what I really love about, you know, having amazing people like you, Melissa here, I get to learn from you, we get to learn from you, we get to build a relationship. And then our listeners get to learn and be exposed and welcome, you know, your mindset into their circle as well. And so I think when you take an eye to that of who is around you, whether it's virtually like this, I mean, Sue, and I met for the first time in July, or through a podcast or social media, you know, find those people that you connect with that just make you a better person, and then shed the rest.

Melissa Wiggins  47:20

Amen. Amen, sister.

Sue McCarroll  47:24

I hate to say there's no excuse. But I really do want to say like, there's really no excuse to saying like, you don't have anyone in your life that you can turn to for this information. Because guess what, as bad as social media can be, social media can bring you all of the inspiring people and Caitlin's Right? Like this podcast is a labor of love, like podcasts literally are labors of love, right? Like you work really hard. And you hope someday that it's going to come back and be like a profitable thing. But at the same time, in the beginning, it's really about just you pour your passion into it. But there are lots of podcasts out there. And we love that you listen to this one. But there's all kinds there's all kinds of people on social media that will inspire you and be a positive in your life. And you don't have to be in the same room, the same state the same country. I was talking to Caitlyn when we were in California. And I was like, it's kind of weird, because when I'm at home, I don't really go out like a lot with girls, or the girlfriends or whatever. Because I was like, all of my closest friends are like scattered around the world. And so the people I really want to go out with are not local to me. So

Melissa Wiggins  48:40

we have to have retreats, and South Carolina to have girls weekend.

Sue McCarroll  48:46

Exactly, exactly. So anyway, we are so blessed to have you here. And I want you to tell our listeners where they can find you how they can hear some more of these amazing things that you have to share with them

Melissa Wiggins  49:00

Sure. So you can go to my website, Melissa Wiggins dot life is where most of my information is. But I'm also on Instagram, probably too much at coach Mama Bear. And you can watch my stories with my crazy little kids and my crazy work life and have some fun there. Also, you can listen to my podcast, coaching and a cup of tea with Mama Bear everywhere that you can listen to podcasts.

Sue McCarroll  49:25

Well, thank you so much for being a repeat guest.

Caitlin Hatzenbuhler  49:29

Thank you. So I just wanted to say thank you so much. I know like you said at the beginning that it was, you know, it's a hard thing for you to do to take yourself back into that time that you've really moved forward from. And I think that it's just so encouraging to you know, hear how you did survive the hardest time and how you continue to go through challenges, but tap into the things that you've learned about yourself during that time. So just thank you for being willing to help our listeners help us to help future moms who might be going through this. And using your experience and your knowledge to, you know, uplift our community. So thank you for that.

Melissa Wiggins  50:13

Yeah, I love your podcast. It's amazing. You guys are amazing. I loved your photo shoot you dead recently, and I'm just so grateful to be here. You're both bright lights and the podcast world flash Instagram world was lucky to have you laughing. You're amazing.

Sue McCarroll  50:29

And just two things I want to leave the listeners with. If you wanted to hear more about Melissa and her sobriety journey. There's an episode on that and I will link to it in the show notes. And this is a verbal apology because Melissa has construction going on outside her window. So those are those weird noises.

Melissa Wiggins  50:48

Yes, sorry. I can't control all the things unfortunately. Dr.

Sue McCarroll  50:59

Well, thank you. It's been a beautiful conversation. So beautiful.

Melissa Wiggins  51:03

Thank you so much. lassies you're amazing.