Episode 148: The Art of Attachment with Laurie A. Couture

This podcast episode emphasizes the importance of recognizing and addressing attachment disruption in children to prevent emotional damage and ensure their well-being.

In the segment, DJ and special guest Laurie Couture discuss the significance of attachment and early intervention in nurturing and empowering children for healthy development. Tune in to hear them talk about the importance of creating a secure attachment bond, building relationships with teachers, and prioritizing physical touch in parent-child interactions. Stay tuned as Laurie highlights the long-term emotional damage that can result from disrupted attachments in children, particularly in the context of adoption and foster care.

Laurie A. Couture is a licensed mental health counselor and the author of Instead of Medicating and Punishing and the best seller, Nurturing and Empowering Our Sons. She is developing The Couture Protocol, an evidence-based, whole-child program of treating developmental and generational trauma in children, youths, and their families. Laurie provides consulting, presentations, training, and research reports to industries, agencies, and programs that directly serve children, youths, and families.

TIMESTAMPS
4:01 - DJ and Laurie discuss attachment disruption in children, especially those in foster care or adopted.
13:14 - Laurie Couture explains secure attachment occurs when parents meet children's needs, while insecure attachment results from parents' failure to meet needs.
18:04 - The conversation covers the impact of trauma on a child's education and the options for alternative schooling.
31:03 - Laurie argues that society's emphasis on independence and peer relationships can lead to children being "skin-to-skin starved," and that parents should prioritize continued skin-to-skin contact as their children grow older.

For more information on the Imperfect Heroes podcast, visit: https://www.imperfectheroespodcast.com/

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Laura Couture -
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Transcript

Laurie Couture  0:00  
We think you should know that Imperfect Heroes Podcast is a production of Little Hearts Academy USA.

DJ Stutz  0:09  
You're listening to Imperfect Heroes, Insights Into Parenting, the perfect podcast for imperfect parents looking to find joy in their experience of raising children in an imperfect world. And I'm your host DJ Stutz.

So today is a fifth Monday. With our new setup we always do for deep dives into a specific topic. But once in a while, we get a month with five Mondays. So what I'm doing is I'm pulling some of the conversations that I have that we recorded earlier that don't quite fit into the set themes that we have for this year are so important and so interesting. And today is one of those episodes. So today we are talking about attachment. Now, both Laurie Couture and I have adopted kiddos out of the foster system. And so we're talking a little bit about that. But we're also talking about the importance of whether your child is an adopted child or a DNA kiddo, they still have these certain needs to be able to have the proper attachment that helps them build relationships and to be independent and to develop relationships that will last a lifetime. So that they get to have maybe a 46 or a 50th wedding anniversary down the road. And they have children that they enjoy being with that they're successful in their careers, and that they're happy human beings throughout the most of their life, which is their adulthood. So today, I hope you listen in what a great episode we have. Let's get started. 

Welcome, everyone, and thanks for choosing to spend the next few minutes with Little Hearts Academy and Imperfect Heroes podcast. And I'm so glad that you're here. So before we get started, and we have so much to cover today, and it's so exciting that I want to remind everybody that if you're listening, you can always catch us on YouTube and Rumble. So on YouTube, our channel is Little Hearts Academy USA. And on Rumble, our channel is just Imperfect Heroes. It's that simple. So if you are listening, and you like what you hear, please hit that follow button, leave us a rating and review. Five stars is the appropriate number of stars. And that always helps us get the word out. And if you haven't got it yet, you need to get it. Roman is Bigger. That's my new children's book. And well it gets it's not so new. It's been out for a few months by the time we have this out. And it's a fun book. And it's about vocabulary. And let me just remind everyone, that vocabulary is a big deal on the success of our kids in life and in education. We have kids that come in that are sometimes 10,000 words behind in kindergarten. And so we want to talk to our kids and share vocabulary with our kids. That's one of the things that we really want to help our kids with helping them with vocabulary is really going to give them a step up. 

All right, let's get things going today I have such a great guest and we are talking about such an important piece. Whether you have an adopted child or whether you have a DNA child, this is a key piece that is going to help them throughout their whole life. And it starts even before they're born, and it's on attachment. And Laurie A. Couture is here and she is an expert on this. And Laurie, we have so much in common with our stories. And I just was so drawn to you when we first heard it. We had such a long conversation. Laurie, why don't you share who you are and what you have going on?

Laurie Couture  4:01  
Well, thank you DJ. Yes, I am Laurie A. Couture and I'm a by trade. I'm a licensed mental health counselor. I'm the author of Nurturing And Empowering Our Sons, my newest book that came out this year and instead of medicating and punishing right now I provide consultation to agencies and programs that work with kids and families. And I sort of went off on my own track. When I got into the professional fields. I worked in education. I worked in social services, especially with option and therapeutic foster care, juvenile justice and mental health counseling. So 15 years as a therapist, specializing in childhood developmental trauma and EMDR for treating that. And I went off on my own like I said, to basically learn what we weren't taught in not only college and grad school, but in our in service trainings and our professional development trainings and I I went and studied Paleolithic tribal societies and how they, how they parented and educated in a way that did not lead to the behavioral learning and mental health issues that we see in industrialized societies. And that we've seen since the dawn of agriculture and civilization. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. And I did well as DJ said, I'm also an adoptive mom. We're very proud adoptive mom of a beautiful son, Bryson, who I adopted when he was 11. Tragically, he succumbed to his chronic suicidal ideation that went back as far as around five years old, according to records and his disclosures to me, coming up on six years of that tragedy, and what I do to stay alive from losing him and being alienated from his daughter, my granddaughter, is I tell Bryson story. And I work very hard to prevent other kids from having to suffer what he suffered and to try to heal those families. While there is still hope. And while your child is alive, there is still hope.

DJ Stutz  6:04  
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think too, you're so right, in that we tend to come from that, get over it, kind of a mentality or sometimes, because we don't know what to do. And you bring up the point that he was having those ideations, those feelings, those emotions, from age five, and then that's before that he was in your life. And those who know my story, we adopted our youngest at age 12. And so that attachment and her story, you know, being seven years in foster care, and 11 placements, and two failed adoptions, and all of that really affected her ability to attach to people and the ability to feel that I am lovable. It is possible for others to love me. And she still struggles that with that even today, even though she's making progress and doing great, and I'm very proud of her. Yeah,

Laurie Couture  7:01  
that was a chronic issue for my son as much as he adored us and our family and how much we cherished and treasured him and he was just showered with love every single day of his life with us. In the end, he just believed that he was garbage. I mean, to use his words, he just could not believe that he belonged. He could not believe that he was wanted. Like you said, Your daughter went through multiple placements. My son was in 15 different foster respite and residential placements. I mean, how can a child feel lovable and wanted and like they even deserve to take up space in this world? When not only that happens, but the social workers show up at every transfer with a trash bag. How can children feel like they're worth anything with those conditions?

DJ Stutz  7:52  
Absolutely. And what that must feel I know when she came to our home, yeah, it was trash bags of her stuff was just interesting. Next, same thing. Yeah, yeah. But another thing too, is you don't have to have an adopted child, for them to be struggling with attachment issues as well. It could be something and it may not be something that you're even aware of necessarily. It could be something that maybe there's some teasing that's happened at school, or in the neighborhood, or a tragedy that's happened, the loss of someone that's close to them, even the loss of a pet that we haven't been able to, you know, oh, it was just a pet, oh, they're young, oh, they'll manage through it. I hear that excuse a lot, especially with my coaching and some of the work that I've done in Avon in my teaching, that this kid lost a pet. And I can see that kid is really struggling with that. And they're like, Oh, it's just a pet, they'll get over it. And they may kids are different. And kids respond to different situations according to their own personality, you know, and their own needs or whatever. But we need to really watch them and pay attention and not just write things off. But really pay attention. What are some of the things that we really need to watch out for with our kids? DNA and adopted?

Laurie Couture  9:11  
Oh, yes, you're right, DJ, that I love how you use that term DNA, children and DNA families. I think that's a great way to frame it. I think all parents whether you're parenting a DNA child or an adoptive child is that attachment disruption happens usually, for things that in our culture, in our industrialized culture, we are told are just good parenting and educating. So unfortunately, we have to take this back to the start in order to understand attachment. So what attachment is, first of all, let's define attachment because a lot of people think it's just, oh, well, the child's clingy or Oh, it's just feelings of sentimentality and loving No. Attachment is actually nature's symphonic process. It's a cyclical cycle. It's a cyclical cycle. That doesn't make sense. But cyclical process is what I mess. And nature has embedded this into every mammal. And I believe it's also in it to some degree in birds and reptiles too. And maybe even some insects because there's many of these other animals also have a caretaking element. However, let's focus on the mammals. For now this is embedded in every mammal. And basically pic picture a circle, DJ, and our audience see us

DJ Stutz  10:32  
if you're watching on rumble, or YouTube, yes. Okay,

Laurie Couture  10:36  
so I'm going to show you something here. And then I'll describe it for those who can't hear it. So right here we have a circle with some arrows pointing in one direction. And it's in four different quadrants here. So at the top, it says, child has a need, okay? Now, remember, a need is not a want. So a need is a physiological or an emotional developmental need that preserves homeostasis. So it's something that the body and brain need in order for the trial to continue to thrive and to maintain homeostasis. So it's not I need to go to the party and hang out with my friends. It's not I need the latest iPhone. It's that's not what a need is, that's a want. So a need is something that will maintain homeostasis. And children of all ages, from pre birth born children and infants to all the way through young adulthood, adolescents and young adulthood have needs. So at the top,

DJ Stutz  11:33  
I interrupt for just a second. For some of our parents. Can you explain what homeostasis is?

Laurie Couture  11:39  
I will I will get to that because it's step four, we're going to talk about it. So absolutely. And that is, I'm so glad you said that because that homeostasis is a necessity in order to understand needs and attachment. So the child has a need. The child on the second quadrant here expresses the need. Now we don't we, you know, what do babies do when they have a need? They foster they cry. as kids get older, they may if we're not listening, when they're pointing and telling us they may cry, they may tantrum, they may hit their sibling, they may do something teenagers will act out, there are multiple ways that children will express their needs, they will act tired and cranky. And now here at the bottom of the circle, the third quadrant is the only magical place where we as parents can intervene. And what that step is, parent meets the need as soon as possible. And with sensitivity or helps the child meet the need. And then here's where homeostasis comes in at four. The fourth part of the quadrant is child feels homeostasis. So again, child has a need, child expresses the need parent needs the need as soon as possible. child feels homeostasis. Now what homeostasis is, is a feeling that all systems on the inside and outside are good. Everything feels great, the child feels relief, and thriving has now been restored. And what happens is when a child feels homeostasis, when they return to homeostasis, they feel safe. They trust you. They feel a sense of relief and a sense of joy and a sense of awe. And then they can attend to whatever they need to attend to in life. And then what happens is the child associates those feelings with you. And that's what's called secure attachment. Now, unfortunately, the only societies that really seemed to put this at the forefront of their societies were the Paleolithic tribes and the hunter gatherer tribes of the world. And they've existed all over, such as in South America, the North American Native Americans that were hunter gatherers, and some of the African tribes as well, at the dawn of agriculture, and then throughout civilization and now industrialization Well, something else happened. So now I'm gonna hold up a different chart here. What are you noticing about this one offhand? Like right from the start? That's different from the other chart that I held up?

DJ Stutz  14:10  
Well, the first thing I noticed is parents are not meeting the need. And so then well, rest of the process doesn't happen. A

Laurie Couture  14:17  
lot of guys, so you're noticing these big red axes, right? Okay, so what happens here is, the child still has a need, the child still expresses the need in some manner. But here is where things fall off the tracks. The train falls off the rails, so to speak, the parent fails to meet the need, they do not show sensitivity to the meat, they delay, deny or do not meet the need. So is the child now going to feel homeostasis? No, of course not. They feel distress. They now have become the opposite of homeostasis, which is dysregulated. And with dysregulation, they feel panic. anxiety, anger, rage, and a lack of trust and a lack of safety. And when they associate those feelings with you, that is what we call insecure or disrupted attachment. Now, sadly, when the next need comes along, the other previous knee doesn't just magically go away, it isn't erased. So what happens is all of these new needs that start coming down the track, if we picture this, like a train track, start smashing up against one another, and you have this twisted rack. And that's where you start getting into trauma. Now you can have a trauma, if one instance of not meeting a need is really extreme. So it doesn't necessarily have to be chronic unmet needs, or a severe trauma such as physical, sexual and emotional abuse to cause trauma, or it can be a lack of homeostasis that was really intense and scary. So what has happened here is in our industrialized cultures, most of us have grown up with this, which is the insecure or disrupted attachment. Now our adoptive children suffer what's called extreme attachment disruption, usually, or sometimes even full attachment breaks, which is when they are removed from the birth family. And they are immediately thrown into a situation where they do not have a permanent parent. They have either foster parents, my son was put almost immediately into a residential facility, he went to a foster home for a night or two, I believe. And then he went right into a residential facility when he was four and a half years old, whereas his siblings went right to their future adoptive families. That doesn't mean there's less trauma, but it does mean that the attachment issues will be more severe in the child that has to wait for permanency. My son has weighed over seven years for permanency. But in the case of let's say, parents say but you know what, I've done everything right from the beginning. And I've loved my trial, we do all kinds of things, I buy them everything they they have the typical American or Western or even Eastern Child Life. I'm here to tell you that that lifestyle is what also disrupts attachment, it can be mild, it can be moderate. But the way to know is if your child is showing emotional, behavioral, or learning problems at school, then there is a disruptive attachment. And a lot of times when I have worked with families that have been very loving and nurturing at home, it is when they send their child off to daycare or school or when the child is in school, that their needs are not being met. It doesn't matter what grade level it can be preschool to 12th grade. If your child is in public school, I can guarantee you their needs are not being met. And they haven't been for years. So that creates insecure attachment.

DJ Stutz  18:03  
And it's interesting. So we had four children before we adopted our youngest. And my second child, my son, Shiloh was in public schools. And he was doing really well. And actually, it turned out some of his teachers were family friends. And so they were invested in him, and they really enjoyed him. And so he was in an environment where his sense of humor was appreciated, where his ability, like he would open doors and help girls with their backpacks, you know, put them on if they were struggling, or he would notice things. And he had a quirky sense of humor, but his teachers seem to get a kick out of it. And then he went into fourth grade where he had a teacher who made fun of him. When he would open the door for her is like what you think I can't open the door or when it would help someone with their coat or their backpack? What you think she's weak? Very. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And in fact, we went to a parent teacher conference, and she sat down, and I had Chai with me. I always took my kids with me to a parent teacher conference. And she looked at me and said, I can't think of one good thing to say about Shiloh. Oh, my God is sitting next to me. And I said, Well, then I guess we're done. And I got up. Yes, we're done. Yeah. And I went straight to the principal's office. And so and we were on a track system there because they were doing neuron schools in Vegas then and there was no other place to send him and this was a long time ago, and homeschooling really wasn't a big deal. Like I didn't know anything about it, really. And so he talked to her or whatever, but I'll tell you that year destroyed him as he started acting out in school. Will he? And he really had a struggle educationally from then on. And it's funny that after he was out of high school, we wound up moving to a different area to get my younger kids out of a bad high school and into a better school. And he came home from college. And he said, Mom, I just saw Mrs. So and So. Like, what? He goes, she's moving in right now. Like five houses down. Like, you gotta be kidding me. Yeah. What

Laurie Couture  20:32  
are the chances of that? Yeah,

DJ Stutz  20:33  
yeah. And you can even see that even when he was in college. You know, he's that old and coming home. And I think he was wanting one. I mean, he was in his 20s. He was coming home from the summer. I mean, he's almost done with college. And you could see that it still rattled him to see her. Oh, absolutely.

Laurie Couture  20:51  
It probably always will. It's a trauma, what he went through. And you're right. I mean, years and years ago, our parents didn't have the option of homeschooling, they didn't know a lot about it, there weren't a lot of options like there are now. But today, we do have that today's parents to say, I am pulling my child from the school today. And either homeschooling or finding one of the many options that are available, including free options, like one of the brand new ones that came out of the pandemic was called Learning pots. Yeah. And learning pods are like a hybrid between homeschooling and what used to be a homeschool Co Op. So there's no excuse at this point. Every parent, no matter. I was a single working parent living on an impossible income, and I unschooled and homeschooled my son from 12 years old through graduation, as soon as our adoption was finalized in court. Yeah, we took the leap. And even before that, what I did, because I just did not have the heart to put him in public school when he was placed with me, because he was already in one and I saw what it was doing to him. And just those few weeks before he could come home, it was killing me to watch what the last public school was doing to him. I was on the phone every day with that principle saying, Can't you just do this? Can't you just have him job shadow one of the school nurse or the lunch servers or anybody could you just do something to treat this child with some sort of love and respect? No, he's going to do His work, or we're going to tell him you're not going to get to come in on that last day to sit with him. It was just a nightmare, just those three weeks until he came home. So there was no way I could put him in a public school in my area. So what I did is where I was working at the time, I worked out of state, there was a beautiful child centered private school that I had actually referred many of my clients to. So they knew me, and they did not offer scholarships or payment plans. But I literally begged I begged the headmaster and I talked to her about my goals with my son, I talked to her about what he was enduring and what he had been through. And she ended up giving me both a scholarship and a payment plan. And I said, I just need you to keep him here safe. But he may do no work for you. He may act out every day, but just keep him safe for me. And then he will be out of your hair and about eight or nine months or so. And they did a really good job of basically managing him because he was very difficult for them, because of all the traumas he had gone through. But they train largely with love and respect. And it was a play based school. So he was outside all the time. And he did probably learn more there than he had in any of the public schools and all those years. So they also met his lifelong best friend there, which was great. So when we started the homeschooling journey, then he was free to basically decompress and detox from that. So anybody can do it. That is a loving, caring, safe home. And there are multiple options in in my second book, nurturing and empowering our sons, I have a whole chapter of all the alternatives to traditional public schooling. And each one is graded by what I call nature's intent for the child's cognitive and basically holistic development. So if we consider that public school is probably would be graded an F by nature, then what is a what is being what is C? And so there are way more options than parents think there are. So I really struggled when somebody says my child has to go to school in the back go into this environment that is bullying them, destroying them emotionally, creatively, intellectually. And

DJ Stutz  24:38  
like I said, for Shiloh, he had for the first kindergarten through third grade, he had teachers that thought he was great and loved him and whatever were positive, and even with my son, Christian, who, you know, was Mr. ADHD, lots of energy, and he got to sixth grade and I had been super involved in the school as PTA president at that At school, I knew the principal really well, blah, blah, blah. And he had a math teacher that and he was in developmental math, he just struggled with math. And this teacher just you could see, we went into back to school night at the beginning. And when we went up and introduced ourselves as we're Christians, parents, and you could just see like, he almost started shaking. He just you Oh, he doesn't like our son, again, went straight to the principal who now was a friend because I was super involved in the school. And I said, Yeah, that we can't do this. And she said, the only other class that I even have any room in is an honors math class. And he's in developmental. I said, Well, he's going to fail developmental, or he's going to fail with honors math. It's an F either way. I'm in the honors. Yeah, yeah. And but she had said, Well, this is a teacher that I hired, because she had a daughter the same age as my son. And she said, this is a teacher I hired just because I wanted her to teach my daughter, she's really, really good. I'm like, let's do it. Let's do it. This teacher was so on task. So wonderful. He wound up with the highest grade in the class and honors class from design. And he didn't even have to take the final, because she said, even if he gets an F, he still got an A. So I'm gonna reward him. And he got to go do something fun during the final. And so there are options that are available. But here's the deal is you have to know the school, you have to make those relationships. Because what was the deal with my son, Shiloh, I had relationships with those teachers, and this fourth grade teacher, her door was closed to me, she didn't want that relationship with me. So pay attention to what's going on with your kid, and try to be that positive, helpful person. But if that doors close to you, then you got to move on, you know, you got to make other arrangements,

Laurie Couture  26:54  
you bring up a perfect point, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I mean, if your child is doing well, and there aren't any problems, and there are some issues at home that need to be dealt with, we'll deal with those first, and then look at the school later. But unfortunately, like you said, DJ, your son, Shiloh may have had those first three teachers that were phenomenal. Oh, and I called gem teachers. Yes. But unfortunately, those gems don't last. If you get one of those, you know, basically coal teachers like the coal in this Christmas stocking teacher, like the fourth grade teacher that he had, then your child can go from being a happy, exuberant, thriving child, to a child who has now suffered a serious trauma that could affect him or her for the rest of their lives. I call public school, Russian Roulette, because you never know who you're going to get for a teacher. And in high school, and in middle school, the child is with multiple teachers per day. So let's say they have one or two gem teachers, but the rest of the teachers are either mediocre or just do not care about that child or even flat out abusive. Well talk about a crazy making experience. I had in high school, I had a couple of gems and one particular gym teacher, I will never forget him. His name was Mr. Whipple, he was like the hippie. He was the ex hippie ex 60s, hippie teacher. And he was so funny. He ended up giving me his Beatles album collection, because he had no children on and he saw that I was really into learning about rock and roll history. My parents taught me a lot about the Beatles. And to this day, I still have some of those records. And what it was, is that this was a teacher who really genuinely cared about each student. He was one of those teachers that would be like, Why are you raising your hand to go to the bathroom or get a drink? Just go? And you're like, No, Mr. Wilson, you don't understand. We asked you in other classes. And he's like, Well, he says, I would imagine, you know, when you need those things, so go and do it. And so it was hard, because in his class, we were treated like human beings and our needs were met. But when we go back into the next class, we were treated like, like we were subhuman. And so that's the problem is your child might have one gem, but that doesn't mean the next teacher or the others will be gems also, not next, chances are they'll just be mediocre.

DJ Stutz  29:24  
Right? So one of the things that I really focus on and I've done a lot of studying because this wasn't they didn't push this when I was a wee Mike. It was that early attachment and we've got some great things that are going on now. We're learning about skin to skin contact with brand new babies, and developing that ability to attach from day one right away. And in fact, I've told this story before, but I have 12 grandkids and one of my grandpa. Yes, it's so much fun. It was so one of my grandsons Sylvan, he's seven now. But when he was born, it was very traumatic. I won't go into the story but an emergency C section. And what happened was then my daughter Rocky was not capable they'd put down they wanted to do skin to skin, but my daughter Rocky was incapable because of the type of the emergency that was going on. And so this nurse was brilliant came and said, I see on the chart that you wanted to do skin to skin. And she's clearly not able to and so she looked at my son in law Peter and said, Would you like to do the skin to skin? And he just what I can do that? And she's like, Yeah, she's a shirt. Yeah. So man, his shirt came right off. And, and they put Sylvan next to him. And I got to witness all of this. And he's holding this little teeny, teeny baby that was so pale. I mean, I thought maybe he was an albino just was there any is a very fair skin like, he has cotton candy white, white, white hair, and there he is with his daddy is holding him skin to skin. And, as Rocky, I'll be covering,

Laurie Couture  31:03  
here's where I want to just say something. Because with the skin to skin contact, this is something that a child cannot survive without. But to have get through, it was beautiful. happens if your nine year old wants to adhere to your body, which kids like to do. And you are been told well, they're too old for that. There's this idea in the Attachment Parenting world that attachment parenting is something for the first three to five years of life that you offer breastfeeding for the first year, you offer skin to skin for the you know, those first few months of life. And then once the child is about five or six years old, then you cast them away from the state to raise them. But the reality is, there is no time when your child doesn't need contact with the parent. This changes with time. But there always needs to be that peace as they're when they're little. They like to adhere to the parent for the first few years of life. Then as they get older, the only reason they pull away from handholding and love, you know what their that like to snuggle and have their heads stroked in their face stroke, the only reason they pull away from that is because of our industrialized society teaching us that we should pull away from that. And when they're in school, they learn this whole other way of being that your family isn't the focus, but your peer group is the focus. And so it is not natural for that skin to skin to stop, it changes and evolves. But the problem is you have basically a world full of skin to skin starved people. And we also know that boys receive less skin skin nurturance than girls do. So while the hospital was saying, Okay, well, let's artificially recreate this for the for the Infancy from the newborn period. What they didn't seem it I you know, I don't know this, but what I'm gonna guess is that they didn't tell your daughter and the baby's dad that this needs to ideally continue. And the child will let you know when it's time to ship because the child will naturally have boundaries as their need for skin to skin starts to fill up like a bottle, it fills up. And that changes when there is like sort of a trendy focus, like, oh, breastfeeding, they don't tell you that a child needs to clean on their own, and that the worldwide average is 4.2 years of breastfeeding. They don't tell you that they say breastfeed for the first year. Right. So that's just one of many of the needs. We can't get into them all now. But it's all laid off my two books, the developmental needs that kids have, that even if it looks like they didn't suffer any major traumas, if these needs are unmet, it can create problems later that the child will never be able to tell you because they don't remember that, you know, on a conscious level, but they remember it on a subconscious level. Right?

DJ Stutz  34:03  
Well, and too there are times when just that snuggling and that hugging in that is so important. It's it's fine to just movie night or whatever. And you're just snuggling with your kids or when they're going to bed and so you've got little kids that maybe are trying to you're trying to get them to go to bed on their own or whatever and spending some time just that snuggling reading a story and you're next to them mom or dad because I think it's really important that dads make that attachment. We tend to think of that as a mom thing to do.

Laurie Couture  34:38  
It's both parents. Children need to know parents or attachment with both parents. Yeah, mom. Mom lays the blueprint, but dads are not second best. They are crucial.

DJ Stutz  34:48  
Absolutely. And so like my grandson Sylvan. He is so attached to his dad. It's just a lovely thing to see. I

Laurie Couture  34:57  
just wanted to bring this back to the insecure attachment cycle that the way we get back on the secure attachment cycle if there have been some attachment wounds is just what you said to start snuggling with your kids no matter their age, if they don't want to be snuggled yet you start with a touch on the hand or on the on the head or on the shoulder start with massage. The key is no matter what age your child is, physical affection, physical and emotional nurturance are nature's way of healing the secure attachment getting back on that secure attachment cycle requires meeting the needs. And one of the most prominent needs for a child is skin to skin and emotional context. So what I would suggest is not the movie night, but instead read together on the couch, face to face eye gazing, looking at one another, listening to the heartbeat, putting the screens there really puts a barrier between the child and the parent. And so what we want to do is we want to make it more engaged. When you're reading to the child or you're talking to the child, you can have them in your embrace and your arms, and you're hearing one another through the body, that echoing sensation, they can hear your heartbeat, you're rubbing their face, you're snuggling with them. That is what our kids need. They need that when they're toddlers, they need that when they're preteens they need that when they're teens and even our college age kids want that from time to time when they're really struggling with something and they just need that. So be available for that. And it really is up to the parent to make that effort and not just say, well, if my kid comes to me, I'll do it, especially if they have been standoffish. It's because they have insecure attachment. And really, it's the parent that needs to set this cycle back in motion of healing. So yes, do snuggle. It doesn't mean you can't do movie nights here and there, that's great, too. But if that's the only time you snuggle, then you're putting a barrier between you and your child. And that eye gazing, which is important as they get older, that's a little harder. And with teenagers who are really shut down, I like to do basically car rides, you can still have the touch in the car, putting your hand on their hand, rubbing their head, older kids, especially boys love to talk in the car, they'd be looking at you necessarily directly in the face when they're older. And a lot of that has to do with their own attachment issues, especially if they're on the spectrum. So my son, when he was 23 years old, he had to start almost every day with me holding him on the couch for even just a few minutes just to get him in a space of equilibrium. Because I think whatever traumas had happened to him, he must have had a lot of traumas from the morning, because his mornings were just awful, absolutely awful. He could not get his day started without having that sort of period of just equalizing and getting at homeostasis. And after his routine, I had to hold him sometimes just for a minute or two. But other times it was longer. Wow. Well into

DJ Stutz  38:00  
you brought up before like even just a hand massage. That's something my kids really enjoyed was just a hand massage, and sometimes even would be sitting in church and they kind of reach and put my hand on their back and just scratch their back. But just that kind of a touch. In fact, that's how I would get my kids. They napped Claire's all the way through kindergarten, they just needed that and rocky all the way through first grade. She'd come home from school, and she was done. And she would just fall asleep. So we gave into that. And she would come home and nap for an hour. And then she was fine for the rest of the day. But yeah, she always wanted that hand massage though. She was dozing off to sleep. And so that was kind of a connection thing. Oh, so much fun. But anyway, so yeah, I mean, so it doesn't have to be huge, big deal. It can be something like you said, as simple as just maybe rubbing their head or just putting your fingers through their hair. Oh, very soothing, very soothing. Some

Laurie Couture  39:00  
some kids like to be scratched at the back of the hand. Some kids like find out what sensory modality of your will your kids love. Some kids don't like light touches. Some kids like really hard massages. Some kids like to be scratched. Some do like more gentle touches. So find out what it is that your child loves. Because that way that will enhance the connection rather than causing annoyance. One of the

DJ Stutz  39:27  
thing and remember, it's just because it works for one kid in your family, doesn't mean it's going to work for the next kid. Absolutely. Child is individual.

Laurie Couture  39:35  
Right? Each child is different. Each child wants something different. I've noticed that with the kids in my own family. The other thing too, studies have shown that mothers who have insecure attachments to their children have a tendency to touch with the fingertips instead of with the whole hand. So if you find yourself touching your child too much with just the fingertips, try to put the whole hand on the face or on the back or on the shoulder on the head. Because it's a more soothing touch than just a fingertip, which tends to convey anxiety and lack of connection. And it can actually feel uncomfortable to kids to just be touched with the fingertips. So try to keep that in mind and put the whole palm and the whole hand down. That's an interesting thing that came out of some of the some studies that I read, I cite them in the book. So that's, that is in there. Cool.

DJ Stutz  40:27  
Well, speaking of so why don't you tell our listeners how they can find out more and maybe even contact you and get some more information? Sure.

Speaker 1  40:36  
Thank you, nurturing and empowering our sons is the most recent book, The other book is Instead of Medicating and Punishing, and those are both available on Amazon, as well as on Barnes and Nobles. And you can learn a little bit more about me at LaurieACouture.com. I also have a substack with that name and a YouTube channel. So again, that's LaurieACouture.com. And, yeah, I think that covers it, I hope

DJ Stutz  41:00  
everyone will investigate you and some of the things that you have, because you have just such a great insight on that attachment, because attachment is the key. You know, we talk about the relationships and building those relationships, but it's through attachment, that we're going to be able to build those relationships. And if we can start early on, and like I say it starts even before they're born with the sounds and the emotions of the mom, these babies feel whether they're wanted, or if there's a lot of stress, you know what's going on, they can feel that that has an effect on how they attach as they get older. So pretty cool stuff. And so I hope everyone will check her out. So Laurie, I always ask my guests the same question. And so I'm going to ask you, we know there's no perfect parent, ever in the history of the world? No, and no, no, no, even Mary and Joseph were mortal. But some parents seem to be a little more successful than others. And so I wonder what would you consider a successful parent, a successful

Laurie Couture  42:00  
parent works on their own developmental trauma, so that they are conscious and aware of how their own traumas and their own attachment issues are affecting their ability to connect with their own child. It's not about blaming your own parents or your children or your grandparents, no, every single generation does the best that they can. They have all suffered trauma, and this goes back hundreds of generations. But now that we know, now we have the responsibility to do something about it, and to make it right with our own children. So a successful parent does that. And they put the needs of their children first, before their own conveniences. And our children only have one childhood, they are only going to be young once. Nature just asks that we give them about 21 years or so of actual intensive need meeting. That doesn't mean that we just check out after. But we've got to at least get them through that period. And ultimately, we hope that that attachment will be secure all through the rest of their lives.

DJ Stutz  43:05  
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. For sure. What a great answer. And I think you're the first one that I've talked to in hundreds of episodes, well, not hundreds, but over 100, well over 100 episodes that mentioned, they deal with their own stuff. And they get their own stuff figured out. And I like that because we all have our own trauma that we're dealing with. And sometimes we don't understand how that trauma is affecting the rest of our family. That's right.

Laurie Couture  43:31  
And we need to get supports when we need them. That's my biggest thing. In the end with my son, I wish I had been able to get more supports for myself, so I could have given even more of myself to him at the end. That's the thing is that a lot of times if we're struggling with our kids, it's because we don't have enough professional supports in our lives and support from friends and family. And instead of us complaining about that. Well, we need to find those communities.

DJ Stutz  43:58  
Yeah, absolutely. And you can find them in all kinds of places. It's sometimes it's a surprise. Sometimes it's a surprise, you find them in unexpected places, which is kind of cool. So you're right. Well, thank you, Laurie. I just so appreciate that you spent the time here. And for our listeners, be sure to hit that follow button and leave us a rating and review and we love your comments. We really do and so I'd love to hear what you're thinking. And so until next time, let's find joy in parenting. See you guys thanks, Laurie.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai