Enneagram Prison Project Podcast
EPP Podcast is a production of Enneagram Prison Project (EPP).
Hosted by EPP Ambassador Clay Tumey, these raw conversations unpack the amazing journey of EPP over the past 11 years and more.
EPP is on a mission to help people to understand why we do what we do, using the Enneagram to inspire transformation—on both sides of the bars—through self-awareness, self-regulation, and self-compassion.
Enneagram Prison Project Podcast
Episode 16: RJ Donovan
In this episode, three EPP Guides (Halida Hatic, Scott Tavenner and Jan Shegda) share their experiences from a recent trip to a San Diego prison where Enneagram Prison Project held a weeklong intensive with 60+ residents across three classes.
For more information about EPP, please visit EnneagramPrisonProject.org.
Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. In the first season of the podcast, we focused on telling the story of EPP by talking with a few of the people who had major impacts along the way, in that first decade of the project. Moving forward, we're going to focus on the now and the future of EPP. In this episode, I speak with three EPP guides about a recent trip back in May, to a prison in Southern California, where we held a week long intensive program inside the walls with the folks who live there at the prison. Most people call them inmates Yes, but we don't say that. In fact, if you're in the mood to test drive some new language, we say residents, we say participants, we say students. Thanks for being here. And I hope you enjoy the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. Season two, episode one starts now.
Halida Hatic:I'm Halida Hatic I am a community Weaver at EPP and I am also a guide.
Clay Tumey:Our JD was a fun experience was for me at least. There are so many additives beyond fun that would describe it. And so I'm curious for you what what are some thoughts? What what comes in your mind when I when I talk about the RJ D experience? What is it? What was it for you?
Unknown:The first
Halida Hatic:thing that came to mind was life changing. quickly after that, I have been sitting with it for a while now. And what I experienced inside of myself was kind of a quickening of the work. Like just this like own acceleration inside of me, that has happened since our time together with the students that our JD it really was incredible.
Clay Tumey:So the I think life changing is a fun place to start with that. We'd like to start with small stuff. So what and you know, life before RJD. And then life now and for, for context, we're about a month, actually, we're, I think almost exactly a month away from the last day or two or a month and two days beyond the end of it. So we're like a month later here. And what was different? What is different now? than before? What what changed?
Halida Hatic:Yeah, I have a real, it's so funny, I'm using the word I'm gonna use to describe it, I want to be in the real. And I've felt like fully in the experience, I felt the realness of all of it, being in community, with folks in that way, with an open heart with a lot of presents, holding curiosity inside of myself, and it took the it was an experience when I say like it's sort of life changing. And the acceleration part of it is sort of took what it is that I have been studying for. I mean within EPP for the past few years, but the Enneagram in general for you know, a decade now. And it's like the real the real, real, real, real practical application of all this stuff.
Clay Tumey:Is this your first time going into prison?
Halida Hatic:Not my first time going into prison, but my first time guiding in prison.
Clay Tumey:What's the difference between being a visitor and being being a guide as far as how it feels? Obviously, the technical differences easy to describe, but how does it feel going in knowing that you're going to sit with a room of residence, as we like to say, or any other word that's better than inmate or offender or any of the other words that are not so friendly, what's different when you're sitting there as a guide,
Halida Hatic:there was another level of aliveness and that probably comes straight through my type structure and my essential quality you know, of desiring to kind of be in that aliveness and that that was present in the from the moment I I took my seat like I kept saying to the to our students, your take your seat and and as I was saying that I was also saying it to myself, you know, that is what I'm talking about this like real kind of the reciprocity of it was alive and also the reality of everything we need. David was in the room. The the real work is about presence. practicing compassion, there's nothing like one's capacity to be with everything. And to. It's not as if I don't. When I say these things, it's as if like, I feel like well, I was saying them before it. I didn't believe it. But that's not true. I believed it. But it was there's like a transformation that was happening inside of me that the in the same way that it was happening inside of everyone else in in that field in the room that we were occupying together, and it was palpable, like it was actually palpable. And the work was to just be in that presence and that aliveness and that realness of everything that was there and that it all belonged was all a part of the unfolding that we were going through.
Clay Tumey:You mentioned your type structure. And we I intentionally don't start with the intro of Hi, my name is so and so my than my type is this, because I feel like it's easier to just jump straight in. And so we can we can backtrack a little bit. And if you're okay, sharing, it's not mandatory, but what is your type structure?
Halida Hatic:I leave with a Type Eight.
Clay Tumey:So what I know about Type Eight, and I can't speak for Type Eight, I, I think, actually, let me let me rephrase that not even what I know. But what I think a stereotype often is, especially going into prisoners that there's this like, I'm not scared, there's no, I'm going in headfirst. And and I think prison brings up things for people that they didn't realize was there. And so I'm curious, like, what, what did you have any concerns, not necessarily like safety, or physical safety or anything like that, because I think at this point, we know that prison, as many people might not believe it first, it's actually super safe. And when we're going in as visitors, we are, we are not only protected by staff, but if you know, in a classroom of 20, folks who live in the prison, ie residents, ie, you know, inmates, for those for the late term. If one guy gets out of line, there are 19 other guys willing to help immediately. So there's no real physical concern for me at least. And I think that's true for most. But beyond that, are there were there any, any things coming up with your type, you know, in terms of going in, you know, new experience, anything around any of that? Does anything come up, just in hearing, hearing any of that?
Halida Hatic:I think that the things that came up for me around my type structure were wanting to, to push back against how I don't want to because I'm trying to choose my words wisely here, you know,
Unknown:there was the
Halida Hatic:space itself, like, you know, it's not a it's not a place that is designed to be conducive for healing.
Clay Tumey:Yeah, so.
Halida Hatic:So the institution the, the the sheer fact that we, you know, are putting people into places and spaces, like a prison with You know, concrete walls and you know, when you're inside a lack of sunlight, all of the things that we know, you know, help people heal, none of them are there, the place itself is not designed to be a place for healing. And so for me, that's the type of reactivity I experienced inside of myself that the wanting to kind of rage against that aspect of it the like, dehumanizing aspect of the institution that is prison.
Scott Tavenner:Nothing else.
Halida Hatic:They're human beings, they're incredibly beautiful human beings who were who received us just with a lot of love and openness. That was my experience.
Clay Tumey:The stereotype I think a lot of times is that prison is this scary, violent, you know, place, and it can be, by the way, but I think mostly my experience, both when I was incarcerated, and also going back in my experience is that there's a lot of there are a lot of like routine things that you see like people are exercising people are, you know, go to chow go to go to, you know, what we call pill call, which is to teach medicine or whatever, playing basketball. There's like all these things that are like routine, habitual, mindless, just Just get me through today. And, you know, there's a lot of unspoken sadness, there's a lot of just like, it's concrete. And like, still, it's not a, it's not a super fun place. And so, can you sense any of that or not? Can you but did you? Do you? When you're when you're in that environment? Is it? Is it? Is that the same for you?
Halida Hatic:Interesting question. Um, I mean, I think that walking behind the bars, what I what I feel is the, the ignoring the pain, like the let's just ignore the pain. Not but not from the individuals but and not even not even I'm not even talking from like, institutional staff necessarily, but just the the mindset of how we've even created the spaces where we are going to then, you know, put people in all of it is dehumanizing. And so it's just like the why are we not acknowledging this is the realness of type, right? Like, why are we not acknowledging what's here, which is what you're, you're illuminating clay, which is that there is a lot of pain and a lot of suffering. And that pain and suffering wasn't not present in the classroom. It's not as if it didn't come in. But despite all of it, like, there, there was a willingness, you know, we, we, we want our students to, to opt in, right, like we want, we want people to choose to want to be there. And there are lots of different reasons why people choose to take their seat in the classroom. And it kind of doesn't really matter why what gets them in, but then they're there. And what happens inside of there, and a little bit of it is just the acknowledgement of the pain and suffering and the willingness to be with it with them, which is something that they what I suspect has not often been a part of their experience in in prison or prior to being incarcerated.
Clay Tumey:So you mentioned the classroom, it's an it's a nice transition into I do want to talk about what and just to paint the picture of the classroom that you I was fortunate enough to be there. So I can I can, I can kind of set the scene a little bit and describe your your room was it was it probably I would say like 10 feet by 15 feet. So it was a it wasn't like a big giant classroom, it was pretty cozy in there. concrete walls, the tile floors, that, you know, fluorescent lighting all that good stuff. Not not a whole lot of natural sunlight. Matter of fact, there were I don't think there was a window in there where it was there. I don't I don't seem to remember there being a window in there either. And if there was it was the tiny little slit window in prison. So it was that was like the physical, the physical setting. The chairs were at the perimeter of the room. So we do the circle is a little oblong circle, because the way the room was, and I want to say 16 or 17 residents there were in class, am I remembering all that correctly?
Halida Hatic:You are was a 23 capacity room and we had 16 residents. And then you were there, myself, Scott, and somebody from the mental health team. So we were at capacity.
Clay Tumey:Yeah, literally. I'm actually I'm going to talk to Scott tomorrow. And I'm looking forward to seeing some of the things that stand out from him or for him from that week. And you mentioned someone from the mental health team there and I kind of I kind of brain farted there for a minute and forgot that we had we had a representative in the class with us and this wasn't someone who just sat in the back of the room and supervised like they were in the circle with us and participated like during the check in answering the questions. I wasn't there when you paneled five, but he was he was on the panel Correct? What's that like having involvement from from prison staff? As as someone who I have my very strong opinions about people who work in that industry? And and without putting my thoughts out there? What What were your experiences from from just that piece of it?
Halida Hatic:It was incredible. And I think it really I know introduced a beautiful dynamic into into the space. And I think this was the case across all three of the cohorts but the mental health team fully participated. We needed them there because they are the brown card holders and so it was you know a requirement that they be present. And they took they took their seats too. And like you said, when when we say, when you enter when you enter EVPs classroom, you you are a participant and that means doing the homework that means sitting on panel that means participating in, in check in and all of it. I loved our classroom. All the things that you described, I thought we like won the lottery on the classroom was so sweet and intimate. And I get a lot of energy from just kind of that like, forced intimacy, I guess you could say.
Clay Tumey:Yeah, that's actually the My favorite part about your room. And also the it was a it was a tight like room it was small, but also there were no obstacles in the middle of the floor. There were no like often you'll see tables and chairs bolted down. And they just so I would agree on the hitting the the room lottery.
Halida Hatic:They also had, I think it's important to say we had to have our, our students in our class had were part of the Bucha program. So we had to cover Golden's two golden retriever retrievers that were with us all week, that was pretty special.
Clay Tumey:Yeah, that's a trips and dogs running around inside inside prison. And it's also a noticeable difference in the behavior of the people who live there when the dogs are around. And I think with the number of, you know, pets that we have, who are unwanted and, and shelters and all that stuff, got what a what a great idea, whoever whoever thought that that would be a good idea to take, you know, pets and put them inside of prisons. That was that was a good one. I experienced that, like the week before that in a different prison too. And it blew my mind. And I'm not even a pet person, I'm allergic to most animals. And so it's not it's not like I'm even that guy who's just like, every thing with four legs is the greatest thing in the world. Like, that ain't me. And it's, it's still just like it was. It was really
Halida Hatic:part of the like, what I can only describe is this, like field of receptivity. I think you are with us, man. Yeah, that story.
Jan Shegda:Actually, your story because you really, really called
Halida Hatic:one of our students in when when they were processing some grief. And and you reflected back that, you know, well, I don't want to, I don't want to speak your words, but you reflected back their light and encourage them to stay with it. And as you, you know, coached him through it. The one of the pooches went over and sat to remember that just like sort of lie down at his feet.
Clay Tumey:Yeah, so gorgeous. It was and the thing, you know, basically what I what I said to him, I'll paraphrase a little bit, but because I've had this, I've had this talk with a lot of people on the inside, there's this tendency to just shove down our emotions, and like, I'm not experiencing this while I'm locked up, because I'm not in a safe place where I can be emotional, because either people are gonna take advantage of me. And or, like best case scenario, they just sit there and leave me alone. And there's no real interaction, nobody's coming to put a hand on my back. There's none of that. So it's a safety thing a lot of times to just shove it down, like, I'll cry when I'm by myself and myself later. And, and I'd see it a mile away, and I don't, I just don't subscribe to this bullshit thinking of, you know, I don't need to cry. I'm tough. And that wasn't really what he was dealing with. It wasn't like a macho thing, but there was, you know, head down, and like a lot of effort, and to just not experience letting those emotions be what they are. And, you know, basically just calling it out and saying, That's bullshit. And I also put it to everyone in the room. And there were the head nods and the vocal Yeah, and all that stuff. And it was, you know, and that was it for him. And me, it's a good thing, I think.
Halida Hatic:And then also just connecting it back to like, to our patterns and how when we start to to be uncomfortable how our personality steps in, you know, he was really trying to fast forward through the pain and in the discomfort and just inviting him back in to stay present. And notice, like notice the, the, the habitual pattern of the personality and, and just be with that without judgment. And that's what happened. Again, and again and again and again, over the course of of the week was really amusing.
Clay Tumey:A major part of our week in San Diego was that the the turnaround on our bio responses was probably the fastest it's ever been. There were a couple was to 70 students across three classes. And I think it was actually in like the high 60s, or maybe mid 60s. But there were a lot of people in those three classes. And they submitted their bio responses early in the week. And then they they all they not by responses, they submitted their bios early in the week. And then every, every one of them got a response. If they turned it in, in time, every one of them got a response like that week, like while we were still there. And so if you don't mind, can you first for anybody who don't know, who might not know what the bio processes are what all that is, like a brief description of exactly what that is. And then also, what was that like going through, you know, 1015 20 bios, in a matter of a few days, or however many it was, I don't know, I just know that every time I looked up, you know, we all shared an Airbnb and we were around each other a lot outside of prison, too. And every time I looked up, somebody had a piece of paper that they were holding up reading, and going through bio responses. And so just talk about what anything that you want to talk about around that. It's an
Halida Hatic:important part of what we do on the inside. And so we invite our students. And we were doing an intensive, so I think it's important to mention that, so we were teaching 24 hours, eight modules over four days. And most of us with the exception of being Scott actually had one day, the Thursday to do all of the bio responses that we were assigned, Scott and I were condensed down into four days straight. So we all relied on the community and the guides around the world to support us in that process. But back to we assign our students that give them the invitation to tell us their story and third person from their earliest memory through about 18 years of age. And, and then we as guides, take the time to read every single one of the BIOS and provide a response to reflecting back again, you know that there are things that happened to us that never should have happened. And there are things that didn't happen that should have happened. And knowing what we know about Enneagram we're really able to be a compassionate witness for our students. And help them be their own compassionate witness to, I think that's an important process, part of the process being with our pain and suffering, because that's, that's what we're transforming through presence. That's what we're transforming. So, we did that. And it took, like I said, our global community of guides, we have, I don't know more than 50 guides now around the globe. And I mean, a huge shout out to people like Sue Lambert, who took on a heavy load of bio responses. And others, I'm just I know of Sue and and for Scott and I, like I said, we didn't have that Thursday. So we assigned the bios on the first day, and we really relied on on the community to help us get bio responses back. And every single one of our cohort of 16. I don't know if this is the case over the other two cohorts or not. But every single one of our 16 students submitted a bio, which is kind of amazing. I don't think that happens necessarily. This is I didn't say this. But you know, I was apprenticing, this is my first time guiding and in custody. So Scott would be able to tell you a little bit more about how frequently that happens in our other classes.
Clay Tumey:And that was a pretty, pretty incredible team effort to make all that happen. Because it was every you know, you mentioned Sue, she did a lot of abou responses. And and for the listener who might be wondering, well, how did they do that? If they weren't there? I'm glad you asked, even though you didn't. So we the first of all, the the staff at RJ Donovan, they took a massive amount of workload and taking all of these handwritten responses from the students and scanning them and then emailing them to literally throughout the world. And so though, so you would have, for example, Sue, would would get an email would download the scanned image of a handwritten bio, read through that, and then do a read about response to that. And you know, of course, type it out, email it back, and then that would be given to I'm assuming typing in having that printed out. I don't know if there were handwritten Yeah,
Halida Hatic:I mean, this is right. This is you really like bringing some illumination around like how all this works. Shout out to Dan check that and Jason white like Not only the staff at our JD but getting them scanned, uploaded to a shared drive. Jason worked all of his magic and got BIOS assigned to folks that we had already invited to do responses for us and then had to work with a local printer to get you know, so we wrote our was typed up our responses, and then got them to a local printing store and Jan picked them up and and we got them all returned before the end of the week. It was a Herculean,
Clay Tumey:pretty damn impressive. To know that like for every one, like, one bio to get through, and then to come back, like there were like five people involved, at least and making that happen like it was. It was crazy,
Halida Hatic:meaningful, it is so meaningful for the students. So it really does take a village and thank goodness for EPP Village.
Clay Tumey:I want to leave you with the last word here and just it's wide open. There's no question. No prom, no, anything like that. Before that out, I'll say thank you. This was kind of like, I just messaged you a couple days ago. I was like, Hey, you wanna talk about our JD? Like, yeah, sure, figured out a time and bam, that's happening. And I appreciate it. It's, it's, this was kind of like, very quick. And so thanks for giving me some of your time. And I want to know any any final thoughts about your experience at RJ D or even anything else that might come up? So I'm gonna shut up and the floor is yours until you're done?
Halida Hatic:Thanks, Clay I think I want to like finish on appreciation. I know that we just appreciated the EPP community and team that really held us I felt it when I was there, it went beyond the walls, I could feel our global community in the presence of each and every one of us in that classroom. So that that says a lot and when I appreciate RJD was not an easy task for the facility to be able to staff us and receive us and make space for us Mr. Bossy, who you know recorded more than five hours worth of video footage from all three cohorts and generously gave us the raw footage and is putting together promotional videos for the residents. So when we come back like so much, so much love so much appreciation for all the ways that we leave we are supported and we're supported and I'm really feeling the partnership that's emerging particularly in San Diego Dr. Greenwald for you know opening the door initially for us to be able to walk through it she's been such a champion of EPP and many many spaces and certainly in her home there in San Diego so I'm just feeling a lot of love and appreciation and gratitude to her as well. And I think I have to also like conclude while you're talking to people get to talk to Scott but just like like a bow of gratitude to Scott for his support as you know somebody who was like a newbie guiding in custody, I really enjoyed the like flow of guiding co guiding with him. It was such a joy I learned a lot from him. And I just I felt him holding me and holding us and it just made it possible for me to really show up beautifully I think but my last my last like bow of gratitude and appreciation goes to the ambassadors to you clay to Alex to Renee, who was beamed in for one of our our panels. I don't know that I know of we have not entered prison with that many like with that many ambassadors that much support before and it was extraordinary to be for me to sit take a seat with you all was like I felt as if I was not only divinely supported, but that I was the student to like I could feel the work alive inside of me and I just I learned so much from you all so my last word goes like just thank you so much love to you
Scott Tavenner:I think that's still unfolding. name is Scott Taverner. I'm a guide for EPP to get to the privilege of guiding people on their journey in and out of confined spaces.
Clay Tumey:I think, I think a good starting point without any real specific question, just from your experience, can you just tell me a little bit about what you remember from that week? Anything that stands out? Anything that comes to mind when you when you hear these three letters are JD?
Scott Tavenner:I think for me, it's an exploration of what's possible, both from the facility and from the residents of the facility. Right. I mean, the kindness by the CEOs, by the administration, and by the residents was just really different than a lot of places that I've had the opportunity to go into. And you could just feel there's a movement happening there. And there's a shift that's happening there, then I think it's, I think it might foretell some possibilities in the future, we'll see.
Clay Tumey:It's, it's funny, because anytime the conversation comes up, even just in general chatter with with folks who have been there, the staff always gets mentioned, and I've been to a lot of facilities, we've been to a lot of facilities. And that's not always the case. And sometimes it's intentional, because sometimes there's not good things to say, say at all, about the people who are staffed at at the facility itself, and RJ Donovan, is just different, or you know, as some people might say, just just build different. And it feels like they're just actually going to correct myself. It's not a feeling it's, for me, it's reality, that they are a part of the team. And they they were in our classes. And not just in a talk with Selita yesterday about this. They weren't just there just as a way to supervise or maintain security or any of that stuff. They were in the circle with us and on panels and answering questions and doing the check in. Have you seen that kind of involvement from, from any staff in any other place that you've been to?
Scott Tavenner:No, not officially. I mean, it's not sanctioned in a lot of places, right? So just yesterday, I was in jail. And we're in a large room with in a pod was 60 Min 20. And class and we're doing a class on this one CEO kept walking in. And he was patrolling, he was, you know, looking. But it was amazing how slow he would walk in the areas where he had a lot of visibility to the classroom space, right. And he's clearly like listening in and clearly intrigued. And this person has made a shift towards us even like he's made, as we walk in now versus, you know, cold months ago, there's just an openness to what's happening in the room. And I think what's happening might be, I'm beginning to see how this is making my life a little bit easier to and I'm now I'm getting curious. Right? So that curiosity, but it's almost as if like, I'm wearing this uniform, and I'm not allowed to be curious. I'm not allowed to be part of it. And so there's this kind of this barrier that people try to make permeable, but it's almost as if the rules regulations, institutions don't allow it, or RJD, I think is really playing with that. How permeable that barrier between staff and residents are eaten by using any residents instead of inmates example.
Clay Tumey:Yeah. And I was actually about to ask you about that. Because that's, that's something that's, that's new to me, even like, in when I was locked up. And even in the years after, like, to me, I never thought twice about using the word inmate to describe someone who's incarcerated, because for me, it's just an accurate term. And I never I never thought twice about it, which is, which is the thing that is worth pointing out is that it was nothing that I ever questioned, like, why don't we say this? It's just like, that's what they're called. And in Texas, we say offender, we don't even say inmate, it's just, you know, your ID has giant red letters. offender written across the front of it. And when they speak to you, they they speak to you as offender, you know, and that is just normal. And so to me in May, is even softer than what I was used to hear. And Dr. Greenwald, when I was actually the first person I heard use that terminology of calling someone a resident. And I actually thought it was a joke at first I thought, well, it's, you know, because I make the joke of gated community all the time. So resident, right is like part of that. And and the more I was around that, that that type of thinking, the more I realized, now this is actually just the way it is. It's not a it's not a play on words. It's just a shift in language that is relevant And is is RJ Donovan. Is that Is that where you first experienced that? I don't I don't I can assume one way or the other, but that going from inmate to saying resident?
Scott Tavenner:Yeah, that's the first I've experienced it. I think the closest before that was John Felipe us detainees, I think they call it in Belgium. They call them detainees, which I think is one step closer by residents and the furthest I've seen. And I think that I might take a little bit of Musa it's just, it's just a word. I think Words have the power to framing, right. And we, we know, neurologically, we use words to give us context. And I think that when we choose a word like residence versus, you know, offender, inmate detainee, we're choosing to move closer to humanity. And I think that, that that's what we were feeling, at least where we were now, we didn't get to see all of our JD, we didn't get seat, you know, and so there are different different feelings, different places possible, but for the what we experienced, and we got to experience, you know, two different yards, and it was pretty similar both yards. So I have to say that.
Clay Tumey:I agree, by the way, the words absolutely matter. And it feels different to say resident than it does in May. And that, to me indicates that that's that's all legit. And also just a small aside, some of the folks there the staff there at RGD. They also say patient, and when I'm talking about residents, which I just I think it's cool. So the class, it was a week long, it was several hours per day, and and your class is actually one day shorter. So you crammed more into a smaller amount of time. Can you talk a little bit about what the week was like in terms of curriculum? What happened in class? What did you expect going into it, you know, any of that stuff. As far as the class time itself that week?
Scott Tavenner:I think what was noteworthy to me is we had 16 People in our class, all the two were essentially on long term stays. Over half the class was life without parole. The other group had terms of 800 years, you know, which is essentially life. And no one had been in prison for less than 14 years. And I say that because despite that, despite having, you know, all those things stacked against you, the hope and curiosity and ability to do self reflection, was remarkable. And some of it was, hey, I'm trying to get myself off, I'm trying to get early enough place to get myself off and actually get a date. And I get that. But there are several people who had really come to the realization that this is my life, and I need to make the most of it. And I put myself in their position. And I wonder, can I do that? Can I actually have hope, and a life that is a resident of a State Penitentiary in California? I don't think I could. I just find that remarkable and, and inspiring to, for me to explore what parts of myself, I take for granted.
Clay Tumey:And, by the way, when you say get a date, to the casual listener, talking about parole, and in the ultimate hope of good of getting out, which, you know, it's well actually didn't know that at the time that the smallest amount of time was 14 years, as far as how long everybody had been gone there. I knew that there were some long timers in there. And I didn't know it was I didn't know, I didn't know that. Well, so that's a while I had the pleasure of spending the first day of the week in class with you. And it was pretty cool. And there's one story, it's, you know, I hate to say favorite, it's probably my favorite story of the week, though. And I'll let you tell it if if you like about a one of the people in the class who in the beginning of the week, he and I can bleep out his last name, but we can say his first name. It's he part of the check in he said, you know, my name is you know, I am this type I, you know, I'm above or below the line and part of his check in. You know, he, he said, That's my last name, you know? And does this ring a bell? As we giggled, because of course, it's a pretty big bell. He said, you know, part of part of what I want to do here because, you know, early in the week we're setting our intentions. I don't remember the exact check in question, but the idea is to state your intentions. What are you here for? Why are you why are you here and part of his check in was, you know, I want to be Jamal. I want to I want to find Jamal again. And there was some phrasing that I don't remember remember verbatim but it was the idea was I I go by my last name. This is how it hit me. Just and you could share how you, it was on this, go by this thing that was created by a system, but I just want to be jamol. Again, and I just want to that's an I don't know, I thought it was such a beautiful way of, of a articulating that and be identifying the purpose of what he was there for. And I think, you know, talking about words mattered names matter too. Like, I'm not a big fan of nicknames and, and people using street names and stuff like that. And I don't like being called Mr. Toomy, you know, and my birth name is Clayton. Nobody calls me that I'm Clay. And it is not a matter of shame or anything, or any of that stuff is just but this is how you tell me that you know me as you call me clay first. And that's how I took what he was saying, was his check in. And what happened as the week went on with him?
Scott Tavenner:Yeah. So we first had everyone write their names, first name on the name placard that they put in front of themselves. And everyone, the class wrote their first name except for one. And as we went and checked in this person, individual gave us checked in with their last name. Okay. And he said, I've lost myself so long ago, I would really like to find Jamal again. And it was almost as if he had taken on the persona by only using his last name. I think it was even before prison. And so we let him have his placard in his name card with his last name on it. And it was the last day. And I walked over and I gave him a pen and a new placard. And I said, are you ready yet? And he said, Yes, I am. And he took the new one out, and he wrote your ball on it. And as he put the placard on the ground, he looked back up in the whole room was silent. And he had this beaming smile. He said something the effect of a long time, since I felt like myself.
Clay Tumey:When I saw him, I was only in your class, the first day when I saw him at the end of the week. I don't know that I realized that. That it was quite that I guess addressed in the class itself. And I didn't know that about the class falling silent. I saw him at graduation, and I just, you know, handshake fist bump that, you know, just a very casual, you know, like, hey, and I just said, Jamal, right? And he just smile. And it is like, yeah, and that was it's not an insignificant thing, man. Like, that's, that's, uh, so like I said, That's my face. That's my favorite. It's my favorite memory from the week. And it's, how do you how do you navigate those kinds of situations, situations where, like, you know, when somebody says something like that early in the week, like, you know, where you know what the potential is, you know, where you'd like to see it go. But how do you allow something like that, for lack of a better words, or just like without being too pushy? Because a very easy thing to do in that moment would have just been like, well, give me your thing here, right, right, Jamal, and almost like, just shrug it off. Like what the hell? Who cares, right? Just change your name. And honestly, that's my go to reaction like, because it's almost like, well, if you want to be called your mom be called your mom. But that's the wrong play right there. That's not the way that's not the smooth. That's not the right reaction, I think. And I so I screw things like that up a lot. And I'm actually curious what, like, how do you know how to handle those situations? So well, and how do you how do you go about the doing part of that being, you know, seems like it's easy for you like that. There was no forcing for me, either you or Halida In that moment, to just what just here just do it. It was very like, Okay, thanks. You know.
Scott Tavenner:I actually don't know how I how it's done. Often. question whether I actually do it right. Anyway. That's my own internal inner critic stuff. I've done this long enough to realize that the power of our teaching, the gold is in the moment. And it's not trying to turn it into something else. And so no matter what is said, no matter what happens, that is the gold from which we get to weave our tapestry and learning to accept that and not just go on to the next teaching or not going to the thing or not to force it. Okay. This is your journey, and you might make it this week or you might not and If you make it, I'm going to be so excited for you. And if you don't, I'm also going to be excited for you, because you took a step down that path and you know where you want to go. But it's not my job to take you there. It's my job to stand next to you. And I think you, you said this the best, I will take the next step with you. I'll be there next year. And when you feel like you're stumbling, you can lean on me. But my job isn't to take the step for you. Or to take you there, it's to help guide you in the process of us discovery that and that can happen in four days, sometimes it can take four years.
Clay Tumey:Thank you appreciate that. There's a couple of things that I don't want to go without asking about one of them is the bio. The process the process of of those in class, you know, writing a bio, and then turning it in, then, you know, as a guide, you read, you give a response. And typically, that that whole process, it takes a while like it's not like a It's not an Amazon next day delivery kind of thing. But this week, the week that we're talking about, RJ Donovan, it was it was pretty. It was pretty quick turnaround for the for the BIOS and, and we all we all stayed at an Airbnb together. So I saw like, all the other guides, you know, going through the BIOS all week, and I know that there was a process, I talked with Halida about, you know, the staff scanning and sending BIOS to guides around the world, literally. And it was a lot different that week than it typically is. And so what How'd that feel?
Scott Tavenner:Well, first of all, it's too easy to overstate the contributions of the people in the room and understate the contributions of the community that literally help us write 60 Something bios and effect is effectively 48 hours, right. And so we file responses. And I think that the focus on us isn't necessarily complete either. Because we also asked students who literally were introduced to this concept of the Enneagram, got a brief overview six hours and said, Okay, start writing your bio, tell us all about your childhood experiences, right from the time you first remember it till the time, you're 1820 years old, right. And oh, by the way, you have one day to turn it back in so we can turn around. So it wasn't just us, like the amount of perseverance of sitting in a class for six or eight hours, then spending all night processing it and writing a bio, to be able to turn it in the next day, is also remarkable. And we had 100% of our students did that assignment. And many of our students said to us this the first time I've ever told anyone about some of these things in my life. And so I think what's remarkable is while our by it was a challenge to absorb some of these life stories to respond. And then they have to do it again, in a short timeframe, put a demand on the guides ability to be present with the pain and their own stories. Think it's even more remarkable, to really explore ourselves, in some ways for the first time and share that with another especially in that shorter period of time. That short, shorter duration. I think that's was the more remarkable part of it for me.
Clay Tumey:Yeah, thank you for pointing that out. Because it is easy to gloss over that. And to skip that part of it and, and throw all the praises to the people who read it and wrote it back. And I've read some of those bios and they're rough. And there, there's a lot of sharing. On on the on the part of the person who's writing it. And as there's a lot of pain in there is just a lot of pain. So Thanks for Thanks for for describing that part of it. Because I think that's, I mean, well, I think that's literally where it begins. That's without them writing it. None of it happens.
Scott Tavenner:I think it starts with the other homework to write the bio plus five of the homeworks. And I think that learning to write about ourselves is one thing, I think what's even harder is learning to be seen. Because, you know, I've had this conversation with lots of incarcerated and lots of the ambassadors that you know, I think everyone can relate to those moments in our lives for actually seen for who we are, are rare. You know, and sometimes this is the first time for many where students is the first time in their entire life, anyone's actually taken the time to see them? Not their crime, not their tattoos, not their affiliations, not the pain, the misery, but actually, what's underneath all of that. And that's scary. These pieces for me.
Clay Tumey:I agree. It is. I mean, it's, it's that was my childhood, everything, everything I was known for was was all that I did, and very, very little of who I was. And you live a life like that long enough, you don't really, at some point, have a good understanding of who you are in the first place. And it all becomes about your actions. And so yeah, I want to honor our time, we have a few minutes left, and are there any, any anything, anything we didn't, we didn't touch on or anything from that week or any thoughts you want to share? I
Scott Tavenner:there was, we had two bunkies in our classroom, and one was an ex skinhead. And the other one was born and raised in Compton, California. And our society in our world is in a place where conversations about race and class and privilege are prevalent, and it was prevalent in that classroom too. And more than once, the pressure of talking about ourselves became too great. So we wanted to go talk about a social issue instead. And these two roommates bunkies, they've been having these conversations themselves, even before our class I watched happen is, as their understanding of themselves grew, their ability to relate and understand the other also grew to the point where it was post graduation. And I got to see both individuals, after we graduation is day after we graduated date, really. So we got those next day as an RJ D, walking through the yard. And I ran into one of the individuals who was sitting there with his dog. And it was just had this relaxed glow about him that had never seen before. And then I walked into the building, and I ran into his roommate, who ran up to me and gave me this huge hug and which is not allowed. And it was right in front of me. The CEOs that everybody said they're like, oh, here we are. And he's like, yeah, he goes, this is so awesome. My 82 year old mom wants to take the course, online with you guys. I think that when we talk about the power of healing, when we talk about the power of community, I think these words understate what can happen. Because when we can have two people from completely different experiences, completely different occupations, who How can learn to live together, and then accept and appreciate the other, then we can get to true understanding. And we can actually maybe, finally put some of these artificial labels constraints that we've put ourselves behind us and put it on the shelf as a piece of history, instead of a piece of our reality. And if that's not worth waking up and doing the work for every day, I don't know what it is.
Clay Tumey:I'm so glad I'm recording the that is so I get to listen to that as many times as I want. That is as that's good shit, as we say. Thank you, Scott. Appreciate you man. Thank you
Jan Shegda:I'm Jan Sega. I'm a guide with EPP and was part of the intensa at RJ Donovan prison outside of San Diego. It was my second time there. I had been there as an apprentice guide in 2019. It was an amazing week. We had three different groups, three different classes, three guides, three new apprenticing guides plus three ambassadors. And it was just incredible.
Clay Tumey:Thinking about the week and RJ Donovan like what what what are some just just first thoughts that pop up for you?
Jan Shegda:Yeah, the first thing I was thinking about, there's this one participant who has really been sticking with me a lot of them do of course, but This particular guy was probably the most resistant we had at the beginning. One of the questions we often used to check in, during our in custody programming is, what are you addicted to? And how does it serve you. And his response was something like, I'm addicted to lots of things, and I'm still high from last night or something, something similar to that kind of a more resistant response, like not really wanting to go deeper. And watching his change throughout the class. To me, it was one of the most impactful things. And I don't, I don't know, if it would have been noticed by everyone, because he essentially just became less resistant and less defensive. Yeah. But we have homework in those classes as well. So he was turning in these different assignments. And it was amazing to watch the transformation from none of this can help me and none of it matters to these glimmers of hope coming in for him and feeling more open hearted and, and like he's not defined by his past, which is pretty, pretty horrific things. He did very, very young and was working off several life sentences. So he, he really sticks with me as an example of maybe someone that wouldn't ever make it onto a podcast, let's say, or a billboard, or anywhere else to tell his story. And was, and also didn't really like speaking in class or anything, but in just in these assignments, he talked about how meaningful the experience was and life changing and, and that's what it's all about.
Clay Tumey:Yeah. So as a guide, when you're when you're in that situation. And I will admit that I struggle with this with my reactions and, or reactivity in those moments. And when I feel a push back from someone or anything that isn't like, willing to go with I suppose I get I'm activated, I guess we could say. So, you know, as a guide. And this is a class by the way, we're, you're we're there for six hours a day for like four or five days that week. So this wasn't just like a one hour like, see in a few months kind of thing. This was, this is someone that you're going to see throughout the week. And so as a guide, how do you you know, I know outwardly how the response looks a lot of times because I see that, but inward How is or internally, how does that feel as a guide? How do you how do you know how to navigate that situation? I mean, what what is it that you're doing in that moment? So that it doesn't turn into a dumpster fire? Which is what I feel like I would make a turn to, you know?
Jan Shegda:Yeah, well, it definitely it definitely was a trigger for me in the moment. Oh, no. What do I What do I do? What do I say to this person? But and to be honest, I don't remember exactly how I responded, it was probably something like, okay, received, or, you know, and then let's move on or something like that. Because it was literally one of our first times asking for some participation from folks. I didn't want to push him too hard. But I definitely stood on it later. I think that was our last class of the day. So we went home and decompressed afterwards. And then we were going back the day after. And I definitely thought about him and some different strategies. So like, what happens if he's that resistant? Tomorrow? Do I push a little further? How do we get him engaged, just he's someone we need to remove from the class as you can affect the container. So I created some different options in my mind and talked with my, with my partner in crime, who was going to be co guiding with me the next day. And luckily, he moved from actively resistant to just more inwardly pondering by the next day, he wasn't disruptive anymore.
Clay Tumey:Cool. We're not on video, so you can't see me smiling ear to ear as as you use the phrase partner in crime, because I just think it's funny in this context, you know, with what we do, and that's it's a common phrase that you know, you hear just in general, but also in EPP So, I always get a kick out of that when when I when I hear that. So thanks for the thanks for the free smile today. So
Jan Shegda:I didn't even think about that. But yeah, it's like, kind of not culturally sensitive whatsoever,
Clay Tumey:but I'm all for it. I support it. And maybe maybe the next person won't, but it, it makes me giggle. I just think it's, I mean, because it's a, it's a, you know, we soften so many things that are very severe. And then sometimes things that are very nice and sweet. We like to spice it up a little bit with phrases like, partner in crime. So I don't know, I, I think it's from my point of view, it gives me a big smile. So I appreciate it. It's ironic for sure. Yeah, for sure. And so this, I think I know. And we can leave the names out and keep it vague and all that good stuff. But I actually think I heard about because I was in your class, later in the week, second, or third day, perhaps. And I remember coming into your class and knowing not necessarily knowing the situation, but knowing that this was that there was a potential for some, you know, for some friction, I guess. And then what I experienced was that it was a very mild, not like, eagerly sharing, and just all of a sudden head of the class kind of thing. But but it was very mild, in terms of what I expected. And is this the guy who had like, a couple 1000 years on his prison sentence or something wild? Like? Yeah, yeah, so So I do I know exactly who you're talking about. And it was, it was nice to see that my expectations weren't met at all, it was very tame. And there was some, some of the typical push backs or lack of desire to participate, like not picking a type, you know, things like that. And those are the things that I actually get triggered by and I and I admire how that is handled and how that is allowed in the class by guys such as yourself, because I don't know that I would let somebody in let is not the right word, obviously. But I would struggle to go a whole week and or even a few days without somebody picking their type. So when somebody says to you, I'm I'm type 10, or I'm not a type, or I'm all the types, you know,
Jan Shegda:my favorite thing, either I'll tell you, and I think what I've, what I've learned over time, and just from talking with other guides, it really triggers my social instinct. And I believe that's, that's hot for you, too, isn't it? Clay? So it's like that, you know, we're all here together, can you get with the program? Can't you, you know, be with us about what we're here to do. And so I can get real hot about that. Until I remember that what we're here to do is allow people to find their voice find their own this is, you know, these are my words, find their own path to healing, understand the ways that they've held themselves back, and everybody has a different pace in doing that, and a different way that that shows up. And so if it's not actively dangerous, to everyone else in the class, then it's in our values to allow that and support it and celebrate it even. So I'm, I'm aware that I can have a very quick trigger, about anything that feels like it's not going along with the group or impacting the container, but really, that doing things your own way. There's no, there's no harm in that it's not impacting the safety of anybody else. Yeah.
Clay Tumey:And that's good for for folks like me to remember to when I when I want to just tell someone to cut the shit, you know, because that's a, it's what I want to say. And it's not necessary. It's just, it's just not. And no matter how much I want to tell it and tell someone that just like, came on and or, you know, someone who I think it was in your class, also, part of their check in was, I'm above the line, as always, and they put that, as always, I'm above the line. And we actually, I don't know if I told you about this, but we talked about it. Towards the end of the week, I went and, and this is a very friendly, Type Three, very just one of those kinds of people, you just you just like he's just likable, always smiling ear to ear, and he's, from my experience, it's fun to be around. But when he checked in that, you know, as always, it just kind of irked me a little bit because I think that there's something behind that. So actually went to him and I said, Hey, man, I'm gonna challenge you next time you check it, check in. Don't, don't say that as always, and just replace it with currently. And just see how it just test drive that just see how it feels. And if you don't like it, then don't do it again, but just just try that on for size. And the next time he checked in it was you know, I'm I'm currently just above the line. And it was for me it was like this man, you know, of course, nobody else knew that we had that conversation. But those little moments like that are so cool to me, because it's like, hey, like this brick wall that he has been walking around holding in front of himself to protect him as like he was given permission to like maybe just stand to the side for a moment so that from your class that was one of my favorite moments. Something as small as somebody just replacing, as always with currently. And I mean, I'm sure there's tons of other positive memories from from that week with you in class. Are there any others that that come up that are worth sharing? Yeah, I
Jan Shegda:love that story clade because even though it sounds small, it's it's a really big deal that's dropping the personality, right for a moment. Like, actually, let's do the exercise, which is, am I open, curious and available, let me check in and see if that's true for me and report back on that instead of creating a catchphrase instead of creating, you know, an ego self around, you know, part of our check in, so it is a really big deal. And what's coming to mind, it wasn't from this year's class at RGD, it was actually back when I had my first class there for my apprenticeship. I think this was 2018, maybe 2019. And we had a student in class. And this actually happens pretty frequently, I would say one or two, folks, in any class I guide, including some of our public facing programs have concerns around the above the line below the line concept, which for those of you that might be new to you, it's just when we check in for the day for class, you report like you locate yourself, Am I open curious, here available? Above the line? Or am I below the line my distracted? Am I lost in some kind of emotion and are able to focus? You know, those kinds of things. And this particular student, he was a Type Five. And and he said, You know, I just think that this is a dualistic way to look at the world. I'm not with it, and had a lot of actual like theoretical, he wanted to get real poetic about it. Yeah. And so it was it was triggering for sure. It was guiding with Dana and Susan at the time. And what we decided to do is just say, Okay, we don't use that language, can you tell us whether you're open and available. And so we went through the motions of doing this, it was another intensive, so it was five days in a row. And every day, when he would check in, he would say, I am interested to see what will happen today. He always changed the language, something but it certainly wasn't above the line or below the line. And of course, the whole room was like this guy. But then the final class when we were doing the check in, he said, he said his name, his type. And he said, I'm above the line, and the whole room, just like burst into applause because everyone was like, so like annoyed and shit at this guy. And so but that was a really beautiful moment. Because again, it's like dropping, dropping your story of like, I'm, I'm wiser than this system, or it's too simple for me, or whatever it was that was going on for him. And from the outside, be hard to see like, why is that such a big deal. But it really it really says a lot.
Clay Tumey:I love the response from the class and that story because it really shows, you know, with their applause with their support. I think, I think something that maybe when I talk about, you know, going back inside of prison and doing classes like this, I think I leave out a lot of times how supportive of an environment it is, because of the participants because of the residents, the the people who live there who are incarcerated. It's not you know, if you have a room of 20 people, it's very rarely 20 individuals who you are there to do one on one with it's a class, it's a group. And there is I don't know that I don't know what word I would use. I don't know if it's camaraderie or if it's support or if it's whatever. But very often there is that element that I think folks on the outside who've never been inside. My it's it doesn't it's, it's not one of those things that just goes without saying, like it's worth talking about that, that there is a bit of a supportive environment there within that class. And it's a massive part of what makes this doable, I think, at least was my experience as an inmate, you know, being in class, it's, it's nice to know that at some point, and it's not immediate, it's not day one most of the time. But at some point, I know that I can, I can let the guard down a little bit and be real, and not be judged for it. And I have the support of the guy sitting next to me.
Jan Shegda:Absolutely. And the words that are coming up for me about it are it's even more than support. It's almost like loyalty or code. It's it's really strong. And of course as guides, it's part of our job to make that possible create, like set the stage for that. But only the students can create that and reinforce it and it only takes one or two people to really chip away At that container just like we were talking about, you know, from the student, the example from the beginning, but it's absolutely created and maintained by the students, it reminds me of this most recent time, a month ago or so. And other Type Five really beautiful experience where this was our final classes actually, after graduation when we were back in our cohort, were you there with us clay for that portion? I'm trying to remember,
Clay Tumey:I think I was I was at all the graduations. But I was also in and out. And there was a lot of movement last couple of days, or the last day in particular, so it's possible, but we'll, I don't know, actually is the answer. Okay,
Jan Shegda:well, um, at any rate, there is a really tender moment where we had a Type Five in the class who, who kind of broke down, got really teary and, you know, one of the one of those cries where your body starts to betray you a little bit, you know. And it was amazing how everyone else in the room held that space allowed, allowed it, no one was cracking a joke, you know, we had a lot of jokesters in our class, you know, as often happens, nobody was trying to make it okay, or redirect or anything, they just allowed him to have the time and say what he needed to say, which was especially beautiful, because this was a person who didn't speak up in class a lot. And, and when he had up until then, it was pretty, you know, straightforward and logical. Don't use 50 words when five will do. And, and so to see him really having a moment, and everyone there to support him, is another another takeaway I have from the class that was just really powerful.
Clay Tumey:And it's, it's something that you don't expect, in a place where people have been gone, and have not had freedom for decades. It's the movies that we see. And by the way, some of that stuff, the movies, get it right sometimes, but there's also a lot of humanity in there. And, and what I've experienced is, is when you just when you allow the humanity exists, it'll, it'll show up, like, it's very, very rare that you have to force that onto someone, if you just, you create the safety for them to be that then that's, that's who, that's who shows up, that's what you get, which I think is nice. It's neat.
Jan Shegda:It's amazing, it's so human, it's inspiring. And it's unlike, for me anyway, having facilitated the Enneagram in a lot of different spaces, it's unlike any other space I've worked in, people inside are so hungry for places to be real, to let their guard down in a way that feels authentic and safe. And they're wanting to do the work. And it sounds like people on the outside don't want that. But there can be more defended. And they have they have other support systems or ways where they don't need to go there. Or at least in their minds, they don't. So I I am every time every time I guide really overwhelmed and taught actually by those who are inside and their willingness to be vulnerable, authentic and do the work.
Clay Tumey:So good. And I know that you have a lot of experience in non prison environments. I wish I could ask a million questions about the difference between a corporate environment versus a prison but you know, for the sake of time we'll save that for another day if you don't mind because I really do want to know what those differences are. And for a moment I kind of want to just take a step outside of RJ Donovan and go to that house on gosh I can't believe I forgot the name of the street was it read I think the Airbnb that there it felt like what were there seven six or seven of us there it was a lot of people their guides. It was Halida Scott, who I spoke with earlier this week, Ariane and you Alex and myself I think I don't know if I forgot anybody but yeah, you got it. What was it like? I'm I tend to be fairly isolated. I don't mind living with other people but I like my space so to speak. What What was it like for you sharing a house with with that many people that you're around all day and then again all evening?
Jan Shegda:I honestly I loved it and it was a lot of probably similar response. You've heard from everybody. To me, for me, there's a difference of what I want to be able to do and what I then realize my body allows me to due and my workload allow me to do and those things are not often aligned. And that definitely came up for me the week of RJD. But one thing I remember clay actually that I really appreciated. One thing that I remember that was kind of a challenge was actually just the volume at times like they get overstimulated by just a lot happening or, or loud talkers, or whatever, and I won't name names or anything. A great thing, a great thing about Calais is, there might be six of us, or eight or 10 of us at a table all talking about something and clay will just leave the table, go sit over on the couch, like five feet away, and somehow feel totally still connected to what's going on. And I just kept thinking, I'm like, that is genius. Why have I not done this and like every situation, I can possibly do it. So but there were definitely times where I either when we're doing a puzzle in another room or went to my room and just decompressed for our bed. But I really saw I felt like I maybe didn't engage with others. And I wasn't as proactive as I would have wanted to be with a different, I guess energetic reality, but I loved it. I would do it all the time.
Clay Tumey:Yeah, same here. And I'll tell you a silly story, or a little fun fact about me the reason that I do that, it's completely intentional, by the way and it's not, it's very rarely is it just a random Well, fuck this, I'm out of here. It's so when I was in prison, we, one of the programs that I was in, we did a weekend event around formal dining etiquette. And they brought in, you know, we did like the whole Toastmasters thing. And we did like public speaking, you know, there was like a bunch of different things around this event. And part of it was the formal dining etiquette, and all the things that you do and don't do. And so in that I learned that at a table, that there should only be, and I'm not even supporting whether or not this is true. That's just what I was told. And so I've I've run with it, I can't wait to hear it. When I am at a table, if at a table, if there are six or fewer people, then there should only be one conversation. And then beyond that, it should be one conversation, per, you know, six, in multiples of six. So if there are six people, one conversation, if there are seven, then you can have two, all the way up to 12. And then if there are 13, then you can have three all the way up to 18. So you get the idea. And so for me, there were six, there were six or if we had visitors at the Airbnb, there were more than six, but six or seven people is usually is we'd be hanging out or at a table or doing whatever. And, and if if multiple conversations spun up spun off, that broke that, quote, unquote, rule that I learned, is so much. It, it's not even like I can't handle it or can't process the amount of conversation is just, I'm so overwhelmed by this silly rule that I learned, quote, unquote, rule that i It's all I can think about and and it's a struggle for me to what like, which conversation do I get in. And so in an effort to solve that problem, you know, if there's six people at a table, and there's three conversations, I just leave, because mathematically, somebody is going to be talking to themselves, and the three conversations will turn into conversations, which is much more tolerable. And if I'm at on sitting on the couch, 10 feet away, I'm still there, I can still hear. And I can still throw in little one liner jokes here and there and still be social. And I do want to be there. I love being in a group like that. It's it's, I don't want to leave. But that's my, that's my attempt at solving. solving that problem is just, I can't be actively in a conversation if I'm not at the table, but I can passively, you know, exist over on the couch. So anyway, that is more well thought out and
Jan Shegda:expected. No, I'm surprised. That's amazing.
Clay Tumey:It Yeah, in one day, I'll get to the point where I'll have a better solution. But for the time being that works. And you know what? That class that I'm talking about was over 12 years ago, so maybe that habit is going to be around for a while and it's never like, you know, I don't throw any jabs like fuck this like y'all we are talking to you, Mike Barber, barber burn, none of that stuff is just just kind of like stand up and moonwalk. And Alex does it even better than that. He just disappears and nobody knows when he left or how he left or where he went. You just look up and you realize, oh, Alex is like Houdini. He just disappeared.
Jan Shegda:Yeah, he's just gone. Poof. Yeah.
Clay Tumey:So the one thing that I definitely want to ask about is the bio response process. And this is something that I covered with both Halida and Scott. And I want to ask you what that was, like, from your perspective. And we, we've talked a lot about the logistics of it. And what we haven't said is a large part of why that was even possible. Bull was that you were coordinating this week, like the week that we're talking about went down, because you did what you do. And yes, there was a lot of support from the staff. There was a lot of this are a lot of that. But it all, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. It's this all centered around you being able to identify the house and the who's and all that stuff. So if you don't mind just chat a little bit about that process, to where we could see 60 some odd bios and have them responded to in a matter of days.
Jan Shegda:Yeah, well, the first thing I was gonna say is name all the different support areas, but you beat me to that. So I guess I have to come up with a different tactic here. I guess I would say I would attribute any, any success maybe that I've ever had with these kinds of projects, to a Never Say Die attitude. And we will just do what we need to do until it is done. And if it takes us all night, it will be done. And it'll be fine. And everyone will help and and what I love about ETP is ebp often starts with, you know, what's the right thing to do? Okay, well, whatever the right thing to do is, and that's what we're going to do. And what's the right thing, if we're asking 60 or 80 students to turn in their biography? Well, the right thing to do is to get them a response at their graduation. So that's what's going to happen. So once you're committed to that it's easy in a way, because you don't have to, there's no, there's no negotiation on that point. So then you just work backwards and say, Okay, how many dozens of responses do we need to ask you Lampert to do? And you know, which I'm sure has already been covered. But
Clay Tumey:yeah, she did, she did quite a few she had, she had a lot of a lot of bottles on her plate.
Jan Shegda:She has a system also. And almost like a template of how she responds, that I think is very practiced and very effective to. And I think the way most of us do by our responses, is perhaps allow, allow the bio to seep into us a bit tried to really understand what that person was thinking, feeling experiencing both when they were writing it and the events they were writing about, and then try to craft a response. And that can be very taxing just in terms of emotional energy and, and all that. But it's very important thing we're putting together. But back to your question. How did he ever make that happen? Just I would just say yeah, commitment and a Never Say Die attitude. And you just keep plugging away at it until it's done. And the biggest the biggest hero of that story is Jason White, who did all of the organizing and coordinating with each of the bio writers all the, you know, Google Sheets, magic. So that was that was a huge help. And if that had also been on my plate, that would have been a monster.
Clay Tumey:Were there any any moments in that whole process where you were like, Well, shit, this isn't gonna happen. That's not gonna work.
Jan Shegda:Oh, yeah. Yep, there are a few of those. I think one was when we realized that we needed to find a way to print 70 bio responses and we had I think we had 16 hours to do it and which would have been fine if it was the only thing on my plate that day. But I think you you actually came and helped out with part of that clay
Clay Tumey:I went to get I went to FedEx to get something I don't know what it was but I was I was a runner for somebody with that I had the morning owner at FedEx.
Jan Shegda:And then you you came in helped out with the tail end of the collating and organizing with of the print job at Staples, which I spent, I don't know how many hours more than more than two and a half, printing it out printing out all the bio responses and stuff and getting them organized and dealing with the not always functioning correctly. machines that we had to work with, but it's basically another life I was an administrative assistant so you just kind of pull on those experiences of how you get things done. Yep, skills.
Clay Tumey:You're skilled, like, you know, just needs to happen. You just find the way to make it happen and then and then it happens.
Jan Shegda:Yeah, that's it. That's what I just said that when that was summed up the whole conversation,
Clay Tumey:right? If I wish I had that. So I actually I have the I have the the ability a lot of times I just don't know My give a shit is broken sometimes where it's just like, you know, I really struggled to identify the things that well I don't struggle to identify what needs to be done, I struggled to find the desire to do them. So when I'm around people who have what I lack, it's quite inspiring. And I like it. And I try, I try to be influenced by it. And I try to like, you know, try that on for size sometimes. And it's fun to be around. And I like it. And I think it makes makes me a better person getting to be around people like you and, and the other folks who were there with us. That we
Jan Shegda:that was definitely a place where my childhood conditioning came in handy, you know, Midwest work ethic and kind of the whole Protestant waspy. Do it before you do anything fun kind of mentality. It's been well, well ingrained.
Clay Tumey:That's awesome. I don't know where I learned this. But I learned to wait until it you know, have fun and be miserable, miserable about what you're procrastinating about while you're having fun. And then at least you can kind of have fun. And then you can just be miserable because it didn't get done on time. So maybe, maybe I need to not do less of that and more of how you're doing.
Jan Shegda:I don't know, I think that that would probably balance my life pretty well, maybe we should just swap each other's rubies for a while.
Clay Tumey:I'm down. Let's let's give that a whirl. And honestly, I mean, that's kind of the idea, right? And you know, what I do? And what I'm comfortable with is not all that I need? And so can I just take a little bit from you and take a little bit from Scott and take a little bit from, like, if I can learn about what works in other people's life and implement that into my own, then I think that probably leads to a better, better place. For me at least so I don't know, maybe I'm oversimplifying what that is.
Jan Shegda:I think so I don't think so I think it's one of the messages of Enneagram work, you know, whatever it is you're so fixated on it's covered, you don't have to make it such a big deal. Like you already as a four I already am unique and bringing meaning and depth, I don't have to think that nail so hard. And there's other ways, there's other things that could bring balance to my life that are meaningful to
Clay Tumey:we had a moment where everybody was going on a tour of the prison, and RJ Donovan that week, I didn't want to go in. And I don't know that I was able to or it was just I didn't want to I think I didn't want to and I was in the parking lot. And then you I think we're the fifth and they could only have four or something like that. So at any rate, we were chillin in the parking lot waiting for the others to come back. And we had a little bit of time to just chit chat and shoot the shit and all that stuff. And, and I enjoyed it. Those Those are like the highlights of my week that just getting getting the chance to sit and talk. And we don't, we're separated by so many miles and mostly only connect over the internet. And I enjoy stuff like that. So I I think you're fun to be around. And I appreciate your time today to sit and chat with me about about that week was a very cool week. And I'm glad that I got to be there. And I hope it happens again. And I hope I get to be there for that one too. So with all that said, I do want to just turn it over to you. And then anything that's on your mind, we have no time limit, I have all the space in the world to record. So whether it's about that week or about the work in general or whatever is on your heart, just the floor is yours.
Jan Shegda:Okay, wow. Anything I want to say a platform finally, no, just kidding. Well, first thing I want to say is I had forgotten about that moment clay where we were that was after a very long day. I think it might have been Tuesday, which was probably the most challenging day the week for me. And I remember when I realized, you know, it's probably not gonna really be practical for me to join this tour, which was fine. I had already been to the facility before. I was like, Oh, I just got to go sit and do nothing for a little bit. I was really excited about that. And then I realized, oh, it's me and clay sitting and doing nothing and and honestly, there might not be a lot of people that know this about me, actually. But my favorite thing to do with people I love is sit and do nothing like just share space. And not doesn't have to be an activity doesn't even have to be talking just being together. And so I really enjoyed that moment, too. We did talk a bit here and there, but I didn't feel the pressure to like keep a conversation going or anything. It was just this happy, happy, bright spot in the universe in the parking lot of one of our city's buildings. I love that. But generally about just RDD and EPP work. I guess the only thing I want to say is how much this idea of we do the work together is really real and is really a thing and there's no such thing as arriving or making it or having been with CBP for a certain amount of time so that you're not in the work for yourself all the time. Every day and and that really keeps me honest. And I think I think we all need that. I can just, I'll speak for myself, I think I need that I need a place that is going to continually bring it back to what am I doing for my inner work because it's easy for me to lose myself in a to do list or a way I can make a difference. And for me that can also be falling asleep to my heart to my ego patterns and a bunch of things that are hard for me and the people that love me. So I just Yeah, I think I want to end with that. This was fun. I appreciate the invitation. Thanks for having me on.
Clay Tumey:For more information about EPP, please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast which you can expect on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project.