Bill Burke: Inside Coach Nick Saban’s Leadership & Life Lessons Beyond Football
May 28, 2024Season 6Episode 21
Ben Newman
Ever wondered what it takes to succeed under the legendary Coach Nick Saban? Hear it firsthand from former Michigan State quarterback Bill Burke as he recounts his college football journey and the transformative leadership style of Saban. Burke's insights provide a rare glimpse into the rigor, discipline, and CEO-like approach that revitalized Michigan State's program. From Burke's on-field experiences to his transition into mentorship, uncover how the essence of "the burn" ignited his performance and shaped his life beyond football.
Athletes often face an emotional rollercoaster when their careers end, grappling with a loss of identity and purpose. We tackle these challenges head-on, offering tools and wisdom encapsulated in the acronym FIRE—fierce self-knowledge, inspired intention, relentless action, and epic focus. Burke shares poignant moments under Saban's leadership, including a tense team meeting that exemplifies the coach's unwavering commitment to discipline. Learn how these principles can light up YOUR journey both on and off the field.
Check out the full video version of this conversation over on our Youtube Channel.
Ever wondered what it takes to succeed under the legendary Coach Nick Saban? Hear it firsthand from former Michigan State quarterback Bill Burke as he recounts his college football journey and the transformative leadership style of Saban. Burke's insights provide a rare glimpse into the rigor, discipline, and CEO-like approach that revitalized Michigan State's program. From Burke's on-field experiences to his transition into mentorship, uncover how the essence of "the burn" ignited his performance and shaped his life beyond football.
Athletes often face an emotional rollercoaster when their careers end, grappling with a loss of identity and purpose. We tackle these challenges head-on, offering tools and wisdom encapsulated in the acronym FIRE—fierce self-knowledge, inspired intention, relentless action, and epic focus. Burke shares poignant moments under Saban's leadership, including a tense team meeting that exemplifies the coach's unwavering commitment to discipline. Learn how these principles can light up YOUR journey both on and off the field.
Check out the full video version of this conversation over on our Youtube Channel.
Organization. I thought this was a college football team and you said some of the same things, so he was the same at Michigan State running it like a CEO and organization, wasn't he 100 percent?
Speaker 2:
You nailed it right on the head and I've got a great story about that. I think that little story gives you some insight and speaks to exactly why he's been so successful consistently welcome back to another episode of the burn.
Speaker 1:
I am ben newman and you know how we do this every single week we're going to bring you a story of an athlete, an entertainer, a celebrity, an individual who has recognized that their highest level of success came from understanding there's an underlying burn that ignites their why and purpose, that causes them to show up on the days they don't feel like it, and especially after they win. I can't tell you how excited I am for this episode. I got to give a little bit of a backstory before I introduce our guests. This is like a full circle crazy moment for a Michigan State Spartan dog. So when I was at Michigan State, the football coach was Nick Saban, the starting quarterback was Bill Burke. So I say to my wife, just before we were going to get on and we had the opportunity to chop it up and talk about this interview we're going to do, I'm going to say honey, this is like a full circle moment. Bill Burke, the former quarterback when I was there, we graduated together Victory, outside the arena. He writes this amazing new book. He's got Saban's name up here at the top, endorsing the book, and I'm like I'm going to interview Bill. I'm like this is wild. I said, honey, can you imagine the conversations we're going to have? He played for Saban. Then, all these years later, I get to work for Saban.
Speaker 1:
So, for those of you listening, I'm telling you right now you're about to hear things that are going to blow your mind, because I don't think a podcast has ever been done on the topic of success transition, which we're going to talk about, which Bill Burke is now helping athletes and business professionals with after the game and after the stadiums are empty, but also some perspective on something you've heard me say many times success is about long obedience in the same direction, with aggressive patience.
Speaker 1:
So you're about to hear and how fitting that coach Saban just retired. You're about to hear from the quarterback who put him on the map, literally took Michigan State, who couldn't win damn football games before Bill Burke started spinning the thing. We finished number seven in the country, and then you see what Coach Saban was able to do. And then you're going to hear me talk about things at Alabama. You're going to hear some stories about when Bill came to Alabama in 2018 and things that I'm giving you some foreshadows, but this is going to be an amazing behind-the-scenes conversation about a legendary quarterback and a guy who's driven by purpose today, bill Burke. And also some insight into Coach Saban's mind that has never been heard on a podcast before. So, bill Burke, my fellow Spartan dog, welcome to the burn.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. That was an amazing introduction and I am just so, so grateful to be with you, ben. I mean, I've followed you from a distance, just all the important work that you're doing, and just to be able to circle back around and have this great conversation some quarter of a century later, when we didn't even know each other at Michigan State, even though we were in East Lansing at the same time. So I can't wait to jump in and just continue our great conversation.
Speaker 1:
Well, let's dive right in. I want to actually talk about, before we talk about your commitment and your mission now, beyond being a husband and a father and how important those things are to you, I want to talk about this concept of the burn. So, before we talk about the work that you're doing, that's now causing you to really make an impact on people's lives, what was it for you? A lot of people don't realize the amount of work that goes into your craft to become a quarterback in the Big Ten, to compete at the level that you did, to help lead a team to be top ten in the nation. What was the burn, that fire inside of you that fueled the intentional focus and work ethic to take the game of football as high as you did?
Speaker 2:
Well, two things come to mind, ben. Number one was my love for the game. That sounds a little cliche, but my love for the game from the time I was a child. Just picking up a ball and feeling that ball in my hand and getting it to the destination in terms of the receiver and just having fun with the game, that was huge for me.
Speaker 2:
But on a deeper level, the burn for me throughout the 16 years that I played competitively was it was for better or for worse, and this is what I write about and this is what I want to help people with now. It was my identity. It's where I got my sense of purpose. It's where I got my fulfillment. It's where I got my confidence from not just from inside, but that was being reinforced to me for all those years.
Speaker 2:
So it became who I was, and I would learn many years later that actually that's not true for athletes and it certainly wasn't true for me. And I've had to go about doing the important work of figuring out who I am as a human being, beyond my identity as an athlete. But that fire came from the love of the game, the love to compete, the love of not doing it by myself, but sharing in the highs and lows with my teammates. And then also the pride that I felt in not just being an athlete but in being a quarterback, which means something really special to me athlete, but in being a quarterback, which means something really special to me.
Speaker 1:
So talk to us. You walk into Spartan Stadium literally. I mean those years for Spartan football. You and coach Saban, you put the program back on the map, right. I mean there were some dormant, dormant years where fans were very upset. You guys, get us back on the map. What's it like to walk into Spartan Stadium or to walk in these stadiums? You got 100,000 people, because I think it's important for me when your identity is tied up in the roars of the fans. Tell us what that's like and how you have to be careful with placing your identity or your value in those fans of 100,000 strong.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's difficult, especially when you are done playing and that's no longer a part of your world, because the lure of it is when you're an athlete those 100,000-seat stadiums and the national television and the cameras that are in your face as you're practicing or the reporters that are asking you questions, all this attention. That is your version of normal and so you get so accustomed to that and it really kind of deludes you. I mean, that's not a normal environment for anybody and certainly once your career is over, it's impossible to duplicate that. In many respects. There's no other job or no other place where you can go stand on a stage, unless you're the Rolling Stones and perform in front of 100,000 people on a regular basis. There's just there isn't so to be able to deal with that and process all of that as a 18 to 22 year old who doesn't even know themselves, I mean, you're basically a kid.
Speaker 2:
Still, you've got all this adulation. You're experiencing incredible highs, adulation. You're experiencing incredible highs and there's no feeling like going onto that type of a stage and excelling and coming out of that arena with a win. But of course, just as high as that high was and I write about this in the book as well. The very next week can be the worst day of your life, seemingly at that moment, because you can walk out of there embarrassed and as a loser. So those huge swings are just, they're magical, but on any given Saturday it could be tragic as well. So the ability to only handle the highs as you take them on, I think, is just half the battle. You've got to be able to really realize who you are as a person, to be able to develop the nervous system to be able to handle that environment, because it's just not something that you're going to be involved with or immersed in forever. It just can't be done. Have you thought?
Speaker 3:
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Speaker 1:
What you're really referencing and you experienced at the highest possible levels is just the adrenaline rush, the shots of dopamine, just the way that your body feels when, just all that, the chemicals inside of you get roaring and that emotion gets going and you can feel it. Now, for those of you that didn't play football, never were in a stadium with 100,000, or been on a sideline or competed at that level, I want you to think. For those of you that are in sales, maybe it was that big sale that you made and then you're living on this high of the sale. Or it's a big speech that you give at a conference that you were invited to give, on your expertise in technology, and, all of a sudden, like that speech ends and then it starts to get quiet, like, wait a second, like that was a. How do I get that feeling again?
Speaker 1:
This is a book that's going to help you, whether you're in the world of sports or you're in the business world, because these issues we're about to address, these are real life issues that impact people, even if you never play in front of a hundred thousand. So, bill, is there anything that you can share? You know those depressing moments, those tough moments. Now it's an empty stadium. Now the career is over. Maybe walk us through, as hard as it is, some of that self-talk and the things that you had to endure and how you found your strength to make it through those tough times that become dark for anybody that goes through these experiences.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I mentioned it to you earlier before we started recording. But when you're a big-time athlete, people that you haven't spoken with or maybe don't even know come out of the woodwork Because they want to just be attracted to what's going on. They see you on TV, they know that you're winning some games and you've got some attention around you and they want to feel that with you. They want to be a part of that. And then when that huge win goes away or the career ends, some of those people that you thought were close to you and cared about you tend to fade away a little bit because there's nothing, seemingly, to be attracted to anymore. There's no career, there's no touchdown passes, there's no big wins on Saturdays. There's no career, there's no touchdown passes, there's no big wins on Saturdays. So that can be devastating, because you start to think that people view you and your total worth in the world as just being related to that thing that you do. But it's just what you do, it's not who you are. So I think that's important for people to understand and I laid out a framework in my book which spells out the acronym FIRE, which you're very familiar with, and F is for fierce knowledge. That's number one. You've got to understand who you are as a human being, because that's what you were before you ever picked up a ball or stepped into this athletic arena. And most of us don't ever have to do that work because we are athletes from a very young age and we continue to do that well into adulthood if we're lucky enough. But when that ends here we are left with trying to pick up the pieces and most of us don't even understand. Number one, that we have to be aware of what that arena, what that athletic career gave us. That filled us up so much that now we have to go on a crusade to go and find again and figure all that stuff out. And if you're left to do that on your own, man, that's a daunting task for anybody, especially like in my case.
Speaker 2:
I spent 16 years 16 years playing competitive football. I mean, that's just. That's not one game a week, that's hours of practice, that's weight room, that's thinking. That's hours of practice, that's weight room. That's thinking, that's dreaming, that's watching my heroes and visualizing myself doing that. It's just complete immersion in that thing. And then when that's over, after 16 years or whatever your number is, you lost.
Speaker 2:
You have a tendency to just drift and not understand your place in the world. To just drift and not understand your place in the world, you know, and you might have thoughts of where do I belong now? And, to be real, who is going to love me now and why are they going to love me? I mean, those are things that really have to be wrestled with and for a lot of us we don't have the nervous system or the internal strength and a lot of us have family and friends that can help with that. But here's an important point that I really want everybody to understand From my perspective as close and as supportive as my parents were, I didn't feel like I could even talk to them about these things.
Speaker 2:
Why? Not because they didn't love me, but because they fully did not understand the steps that I walked through for 16 years and now what it actually feels like. And nobody could understand not even really my teammates to a degree, because I was the only one who had the name Bill Burke, who played the position of quarterback, who saw the world through my eyes, who had my experiences. So I had to kind of figure that out on my own, or at least I felt that way and that might be a personality flaw with me, but, man, my point is that way and that might be a personality flaw with me, but man, my point is it can be a very, very, very lonely journey to try and pick up the pieces after such a huge change in your life.
Speaker 2:
And so then take us through the rest of the word fire, I is inspired. Intention Once you figure out the knowledge, you've got to make some intentions. You've got to decide the type of person that you want to be and the type of human being that you want to be. R is relentless action and then the E is epic focus. And the reason that I put those descriptors in front of those words because knowledge, intention, action and focus, those are pretty basic, boring words. Everybody hears that, right. But when you tie emotion to some of these things, it really stirs up the thing inside you, that fire that can light you up and springboard you to having victory outside of the arena eventually.
Speaker 1:
And that's, you know, the final E. You saying epic, epic focus. You know I always say intentional focus, but when you think about epic focus, I would submit that Coach Saban is the most detailed, intentional human being I've ever been around Him and Coach Kleiman it's been a huge blessing. Those are the two winningest coaches in all of college football over the last 15 years and I got to work for both men and both of them very intentional. Coach Saban, though, you had shared something with me that just put the biggest darn smile on my face and we can start to take people behind the scenes.
Speaker 1:
But I remember when I walked in because you had alluded to that like he ran it. He was like a CEO of an organization. And I remember, in 2017, ginger Gilmore, dr Gilmore, the behavioral therapist for the team, were going in. It's my first visit, the interviews and all these things for Saban to hire me, and I remember she said to me she's like he's so detailed, he actually looks at the food budget. I'm like what he's looking at the food budget. She's like he treats this like a CEO. And then, when he hired me many people have heard me say that he actually looked at me and said Ben, I could foresee you doing this for the organization. I'm like organization. I thought this was a college football team and you said some of the same thing, so he was the same at Michigan State running it like a CEO and organization wasn't he 100%.
Speaker 2:
You nailed it right on the head and I've got a great story about that. You know 1998, right, we are 4-4. At this point we're very inconsistent. We don't have an identity as a football team and this is a point where Nick Saban wasn't Nick Saban yet he hadn't had a signature win, no titles, nothing like that. He was trying to make a name for himself. So we are now 28 point underdogs going into Columbus to face the number one team in the country, the Ohio State Buckeyes.
Speaker 2:
And this isn't week one. They weren't a preseason, number one, we're talking the eighth game of the year. Everybody had pretty much penciled them in as national champions. So we go down there and it's 17 to nine. We're down 17 to nine in the third quarter and we're hanging in there with this juggernaut and I throw a pick six and I am just devastated because I don't want to be the reason that we were so close and came up short against the number one football team. So I come off the field, I'm very angry at myself. He grabs my arm to stop me. Nick Saban does to try and coach me up. You know he's doing his job. I rip my arm away from him and I. I continue to the bench and I just go sit down and basically pout right because I'm feeling sorry for myself, and he calmly turns around and goes back to coaching the game. So let's fast forward. Now the game is over. We just upset the number one team in the country. He kisses me on the cheek in the locker room, which is something I had never seen from him Smiles, hugs I mean players and coaches. Just to give everybody an indication players and coaches do not hug, at least not during that regime when I played at Michigan State. So kisses me on the cheek. He's elated. You can tell that personally, this is the best day of his career to that point that personally, this is the the best day of his career to that point. So the next day, sunday, we get together as we do every sunday. We stretch out. We just make sure everybody's, you know, in one piece. He talks to us briefly and then you know, we all get a lift in and we go home.
Speaker 2:
Monday morning is 6 45 am. We always watch the film of the game from the previous Saturday. So we're all congregated, all of us players, about 100 of us in the lobby of the football building and we're waiting for the director of ops to just come out and say, hey, come on in, guys, the coaches are ready for you, let's watch the film. So the director of ops, mike Vollmer at the time I don't know if you know Mike comes out and he says, hey, bill Nick wants to see you in his office. And I say, oh, okay, man. Finally, you know a pat on the back. You know he had. I don't know that. He fully believed that I was the guy to play that position at that point.
Speaker 2:
So I walk back into the office with high expectations. He opens the door, he invites me in and when you're one-on-one with Nick Saban in his office, you can barely hear him. That's how soft he talks. I think he conserves all the energy for the field. So he sits down in his chair and he starts rocking back and forth, as he always does, and he proceeds to just rip me up one side and down the other for disrespecting him during the game.
Speaker 2:
When he grabbed my arm to talk to him, I was incredulous. My mouth was open because I had forgotten all about that and I was riding the high of winning that game. I thought he would still be riding the high of that win as well. I apologized. I got really humble, I was apologetic, really just in a state of disbelief. He quietly dismissed me and Before he did he told me if that ever happened again, if I ever disrespected him again, I'd never see the field again. So I took that to heart. But what I took away from that was this guy, after I had ripped my arm away from him, calmly pulled out a piece of paper in the back of his pocket, wrote down a note to himself to talk to me about what had just happened.
Speaker 2:
In the middle of this game there's 100,000 people in the stands and he's coaching it. But he wrote that down as a reminder to himself. And I bring that up because, as a CEO which I believe he's one of the best in any industry in the entire country forget sports. No doubt 99 out of 100 coaches or CEOs would have let that thing go. Out of 100 coaches or CEOs would have let that thing go.
Speaker 2:
But he knew that if he let that go, maybe not in a week, maybe not in a month, maybe not in a year, but the seams of his organization would slowly start to come apart, and that's why you see some programs who make it to the top, they can't stay there. So I think he understood that instinctively and so he made sure to address that with me. And how many other stories are there like that with him and other players or other parts of his organization that he won't let slide because he knows the negative effect that will eventually have on the organization? So when we talk about guys winning a national championship once, I mean this guy's done it seven times. I think that little story gives you some insight and speaks to exactly why he's been so successful consistently.
Speaker 1:
But you know, it's those moments that you bring those stories, where he was willing to have those courageous conversations, willing to do what was needed, recognizing the importance of culture. That certainly gave you that big win that he's always believed in winning in all scenarios. But those are the types of scenarios that took you guys to number seven, which gave him the notoriety for LSU. As upset as the Michigan State fans were, that's what happens when you win football games. A lot of times, other programs are going to come and get you and he goes to LSU to win the first and then goes to win six more at Alabama. And there's a story. So I'm going to say it again Long obedience in the same direction, with aggressive patience.
Speaker 1:
You heard, really, bill talk about the methodical nature, the belief, the process, doing things a certain way. Bill and I have both heard Coach Saban say many a times the way you do one thing is the way you do everything, and so in 2018, you decide to go to a game in Alabama, you're on the field watching warm-ups. So remember, guys, long obedience in the same direction when you identify that something works. Sometimes people are always trying to change. Let me change all the time. When something works. Sometimes people are always trying to change. Let me change all the time. When something works, keep attacking the process and stay consistent in what causes you to win. Most people, once they win, they want to change it up. I'm not saying you don't get better or find ways where you can get better, but when something works, you keep doing it. So tell us about warm-ups in 2018, 20 years after you had suited it up for the Spartans.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I went down with a buddy just to see a game and had the good fortune of just seeing Coach Saban for a second before his Friday walkthrough. You know the players do a walkthrough Friday, just like we did at Michigan State. You're in your sweats, no pads, no helmets. You just run through every scenario, getting the right guys on and off the field when it's time for the kickoff team versus defense, maybe a short yardage situation. So I said hi to coach before it started. They go through the same thing and as they're going through that walkthrough, I start to realize that walkthrough is exactly exactly to a T what we went through on Friday walkthrough at Michigan State and for some reason I had this notion that things would be different now, because by this point he had won national titles and I thought, well, there must have been some sort of change for him to go from Michigan State no titles to Alabama where you've got multiple.
Speaker 2:
And so the practice ended. I had my buddy with me and I had told him you know this is exactly what we did. I can't believe it. Nick comes directly over to me as the first person to talk to after this walkthrough ends. You know he's in a suit, he's got like a baby blue jacket on and you know some, some salmon colored pants or something you know styling it up, and he comes over and he just he just kind of smirks at me and he just says, hey, man, same old stuff, right. And I just got a chuckle out of that because it was exactly the same procedure, the same process, the same friday schedule as he had been implementing with us 20 years earlier. So it's just amazing to see his dedication to that consistency it's.
Speaker 1:
You know, and I think about all the details and everything that I saw and the way that he did things, all the way to team meals my first meal with the team. You're sitting here and there's scrambled eggs. I'm like this is the weirdest thing. We're getting ready to play a night game at Texas A&M. We got scrambled eggs on the table. We got spaghetti and marinara on the table. Then you got a full buffet and everybody starts sharing with me. It was just like those are the things that he believed they should eat. So there's scrambled eggs whether it's a night game or whether it's, you know, 11 am kickoff. Like we always have scrambled eggs, we've always got these steaks, we've always got the spaghetti and the marinara sauce and the buffet is always the same.
Speaker 1:
And you know, I think for so many of you listening, you think that a Nick Saban gets to this level. And so now you're literally hearing from somebody who played for Saban back in 1998 to 01. And then now you're hearing from me, who I got to work for the man for five years, and then you get to hear the perspective of the player who goes back and nothing changed. I mean, certainly there were elements that changed, but for those of you that are constantly looking for something that you always have to change, the secret might actually be in the reverse engineering of the things that cause you to win, and keep hammering those things that cause you to win. So, with that being said, what do you think is maybe the best lesson about winning and being your best that you learned from Saban? Because you said something earlier. We were talking about your kids and you said I try to deliver some of the lessons that I do to my kids that Coach Saban taught. I just deliver them a little bit different.
Speaker 1:
A little more gentle, I could understand that, with some of the things that you and I have seen, that we probably would prefer to not discuss so that we can stay on good terms with Coach Saban, but what would you say is the best lesson on being your best, or life, that you learned from Coach?
Speaker 2:
I mean, there's so much. I could write an entire book just on him and all those lessons. But I think one of the things that really stuck with me was he taught me how to expect adversity instead of hoping that you just are able to sidestep it or avoid it. You know, that's really what I try and tell my kids. I don't want to be negative, I don't want to, you know, put these negative thoughts in their heads or pessimistic thoughts, but I think that you know it's coming for all of us. It always does. It's unavoidable. So the real question is how are you going to handle it when it does come?
Speaker 2:
I remember one of those other times where Saban had me in his office one-on-one, and you know he had just come from the NFL with the Cleveland Browns and he talked to me about how, hey, man, you know, during games in the NFL every game comes down to the last two minutes. It's just you're not going to blow anybody out by 50 points and be able to just kind of take a take the rest of the day off. You know that's just not how it works. So as I progressed in my career, I realized that he was absolutely right.
Speaker 2:
When we played Michigan my senior year. They were ranked number three in the country. We were 11. We got out big on them in the third quarter against Tom Brady. Guess what I knew from that conversation? That I could not just kind of relax and chill and pencil in the W. I knew he was bringing them back and he did exactly that. We squeaked out a three-point win. So I tell my kids, you've got to expect adversity, you've got to just be prepared for it, because it's going to be a lot easier to handle it if and when it does come, if you know that it's coming, instead of just hoping that everything is going to be a lot easier to handle it if and when it does come, if you know that it's coming, instead of just hoping that everything is going to go perfectly and then you're absolutely dejected when it doesn't absolutely love it.
Speaker 1:
You and I could go on and on and on. I'd like to finish this way. And what an amazing lesson on adversity and I really admire your work, your focus now to have the opportunity to go and coach and speak and help people through transitions, whether it be in the world of sports, and some of your passions and the things that you're now doing. I just want to recommend again I know you see it over his shoulder, but victory outside the arena and I think one of the things that's so powerful is just the way that you take people through the book of what really is adversity. That many times when you go through that challenge, you go through that pivot For you, those stadiums being empty and knowing now there's nowhere to hide, there's no going back.
Speaker 1:
You can't put the officials back in the game, you can't put the players back on the field, you can't put the fans back on the stands. That became adversity for you. That transition work you're doing. I admire it, I think it's fantastic. Please don't ever stop, because it's needed, not just for players but people in the corporate space. Where can people stay connected with you? Your message, anything else you want to share about the book, please do, because I really admire the fight that you're helping people with and it's adversity-based.
Speaker 2:
Well, I really appreciate that. And, yeah, I think my last message would just be for people your listeners, former athletes to understand that the work that you do on yourself, you can't even imagine the ripple effect that that's going to have on every other part of your life, not just your career, not just your relationships, your kids, people that don't even know you. So there's no more important work than you can do for yourself, but for those around you and for the world, than the work that you do on yourself. So I would encourage everybody to do that. The last thing I would say is I've got a special gift for your listeners. Anybody that wants a free copy of the paperback book. All you've got to do is go to OutsideTheArenacom slash free book. We'll get one out to you, happy to do it, and this has been so great, ben, thanks so much.
Speaker 1:
Well, Bill, it's great to have this full circle moment together. I look forward to continuing to be an advocate for you and sharing your message. Everybody will make sure in the show notes that you have that offer to get the copy of victory outside the arena and for each and every single one of you. Stay connected with bill, stay connected with his messaging. Make sure you grab that copy of the book, bill. Thank you again for coming on the burn and to each and every single one of you, stay connected to that fire that drives you. It's that burn that ignites your why and purpose and causes you to show up on the days you don't feel like it and especially after you win. Thank you for joining us for the Burn and I look forward to seeing you next week.