UP398 Steve Martin: "Our ambition is to create a super group"

Steve Martin and Jamie Wynne-Morgan created and developed the award-winning M&C Saatchi Sport & Entertainment agency over a 20-year period. Six months ago they resigned, and there's been speculation ever since as to what they'll do next.
Today they answer that question. It's called MSQ Sport + Entertainment.   
We went to meet the pair at their new London office to find out more.

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Transcript

Unofficial Partner with guests Steve Martin and Jamie Wynn-Morgan

[00:00:00] Richard Gillis UP: Hello, welcome to another episode of Unofficial Partner, the sports business podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Today, we're talking to Steve Martin and Jamie when Morgan, who. Created and developed the award-winning M and C Saatchi sport and entertainment agency for over 20 years, six months ago, they resigned and today they're announcing their new thing. 

[00:00:19] MSQ, sport, and entertainment. Callaway golf, we're signed up as the agency's founding client for strategic consultancy services. With more to be announced in the coming week. 

[00:00:28] So me and Sean went to Kevin. Garden to see what all the fuss was about. 

[00:00:32] Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport, a mix of entertaining and thought provoking conversations. With the who's who of the global industry? To join our community of tens of thousands of people. Sign up to the weekly Unofficial Partner newsletter and follow us on Twitter 

[00:00:49] UP: At Unofficial Partner. 

[00:00:50] . 

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[00:00:59] Richard Gillis UP: , what you two did next? That might be the headline or it could be, Martin 2.0 was the was one question. Tell us where we're, we're. I know we're in Common Garden, but 

[00:01:09] Steve Martin: Yeah. 

[00:01:09] Give us a bit, give us a bit of context. Yeah, I mean it's been a, obviously an extraordinary time for us.

[00:01:16] I think a, a major call to leave an organization we set up 20 years ago. To go and try and do something new, but it was almost a niche we wanted to scratch and I think if we didn't do it now, we'd never do it. And I think after 20 years with MNC Saatchi Sport and Entertainment, which was highly emotional, it was an amazing, time really.

[00:01:37] And, from scratch to whatever we ended up creating, it was a very big call because we'd had a glorious time there, very much looked after, built the sort of team that we were. cared about, all that stuff. But I think you constantly want to challenge yourself and, and Jamie and I have been partners in crime for an awful long time and I think we looked at each other and said this is the time and it was absolutely bang on 20 years.

[00:01:59] So We're now at MSQ, Sport and Entertainment as it will be called. We had quite a number of things sort of, arose at that time post us resigning and six months garden leave was an, an interesting time to actually just stop for once, Rich, you know, and just decompress a wee bit and have a look at what actually the market's doing, where's the right thing, what do we want to do, and what's the opportunity.

[00:02:25] And. We've sort of considered many things, which was a lovely position to be in and quite humbling. And then reason we've come here to MSQ is we, we really liked their overall sort of proposition, what they stood for, which we'll probably talk a little bit about now and to create something in a partnership because ultimately we were going to sit and start our own thing.

[00:02:47] What does that even mean? And, but the last thing we wanted to do was sort of, be plugging the fax machine in the corner and each other, panicking. We're still doing that. Yeah. And there's real merits to that. By the way, is there anything wrong with a fax machine? It's, it's podcasts and football transfers.

[00:03:03] They're the only two that use fax machines. So, so we looked at each other and went, ah, no, we're not doing that. So, finding the right partner to back us under the right model, which we'll hopefully talk about today of what that means. So what was, what was the, Jamie, what was the, the options? You were thinking you sort of, okay, you've got six months to think about this.

[00:03:21] Have you changed your mind over that period? Is that something, have you evolved over, over that? Because gardening leave is, yeah, six months. It's. It's evolved, but we haven't changed our mind, right? So we and we've we've had some incredible conversations, incredible opportunities, and we had sort of 10 or 12 different opportunities, everything from, high net worth individuals to existing agencies to build something within them.

[00:03:44] And so people coming to you and saying, Right, we want what you've done the last 20 years, we want that. Yeah, we want to back you, we want to, we want to be involved in what you're in, use all your expertise and your experience and build again. Or I want to back you, I want to get into the space, I'm really excited by it.

[00:03:59] Yeah. But what we, we always said we wanted to do is just like, we wanted to sort of do our own thing. Rather than necessarily be, in, in an existing agency. And even though we are at MSQ, it is our own thing, it is a partnership with them. Yeah. And we always said we want to go somewhere where we feel like we're in control of it and it's our own thing.

[00:04:18] We can build, the culture and the offer, but do it in partnership with someone that's got proper investment and will enable us to attract the best talent, get into it later, I'm sure, do some acquisitions, build, build a group, build something really exciting. It's not about being the biggest.

[00:04:32] That's not about, it's not a scale thing, so, as I said, Stephen and I, the conversation did evolve because we had quite a few, people came to us, but it always came down to like, where are we going to go where we feel like we are still, we're still doing our own thing, but it's sort of, I guess, maybe a bit more grown up version now for us.

[00:04:47] So tell me about MSQ, because again, hand on heart, I hadn't heard of them, so you need to just fill in the, fill in the gaps. Well I think it'll surprise a few people. I guess it surprised ourselves in honesty, because I think whenever you look at the potential, isn't this the obvious candidates around our business?

[00:05:02] Cause I think even post COVID, so many new agencies started. So our competitive set become much, became much broader. And that's not just domestically here in the UK, and across Australia where I spent quite a bit of time, obviously in the U S it's like, it's, there's so many agencies. Yeah. So for us actually, we wanted to look at something that's got momentum and we can properly build something.

[00:05:22] And I think there's a lot of existing agencies that are originally parts of networks. There's quite a few independents, not that many who are, have got the scale yet, but there's a lot of very good independents, which is actually part of the attraction of coming here as well. But MSQ has evolved. I mean, it's, it's surprising when you look under the bonnet, there's 1300 odd employees, they've got 10 agencies within the group, very good ad agency, a really good digital agency, great production capabilities, huge tech capabilities actually underpinned and the great data.

[00:05:50] an inside element to it. And we just, they don't have a sport and entertainment agency. Right. So that was, hopefully we're a shiny new toy in the middle of that. Yeah, yeah. But the important thing is, it means we can start very quickly. We don't want to be sitting there, I guess, building an organic agency like we did at M& C Saatchi, which takes a long time to go.

[00:06:10] We, of course, will do that. And I think we'll be, Razor focused on that to do that and I have a point of view on it, but I think where we can really fast track this is through acquisition as well. And, we listened to your dulcet tones the other day with Matt talking about investment in sport and obviously agency sectors, the hot topic in that.

[00:06:29] And we wanted to explore that and have that capability to go and build an agency, but by, and I think our focus will be, a, So just on, just on the MSQ, who owns it? What, who, where, where is the money, the ownership it's in, it's independent and actually a part of it is underpinned by one equity partner.

[00:06:45] So they have bought it. So they bought it last year. So it's all underpinned and I think that's where the exciting thing is. It's in 14, 15 markets at the minute, physically, but the growth is to, to really keep that momentum going and open up in multiple markets. And I think sport can help really do that.

[00:07:03] So that's been the exciting thing. And I think part part of the philosophy on there was all the main leaders of all the businesses all have shares within the MSQ group, which is really brilliant. And it means there's, there are no barriers. So it feels like if you're working with each other, it doesn't feel clunky or the elbows are sharp.

[00:07:26] And that happens a lot in groups and we've seen that before, whereas it feels like everybody's got skill in the game to make the MSQ value much higher over time. So we can immediately start with a team, which is brilliant. And then we've got the troops coming, like everybody's, we're, we've got quite a few people will hope will join us over time quite quickly and we can run hard at it as opposed to sort of a slow burn.

[00:07:49] how big are you now? And what's the target in terms of people? Let's use that as the frame. I mean, I think the actual number of people we can pull in is from 1300. I mean, there's 300 tech specialists alone within the group. 75 people are absolutely just focused on data and insight in the group.

[00:08:10] So you've immediately got that you've got a creative teams everywhere. But for us, I think part of part of us getting started up because. We sort of see ourselves as a startup on steroids, I would say rather than him and I looking at each other and that was a massive attraction to come in here because the capabilities are there and ready to go without the barriers.

[00:08:28] So what sort of work do you anticipate doing in the first year? What, what sort of client, because obviously sport and entertainment, , we know you as the creative shop, M& C was, that was the sort of positioning. I always think of it. Of, in terms of like the last 10 years, you've got the creative and then you've got data.

[00:08:47] You've got these two strands that came out. Obviously, Saatchi and Two Circles were leading both of those routes. What is it now? Cause that feels very binary, but it just feels like what's happening. I mean, where, where do you want to do the work and where do you think it's going to come from? I think it's the sum of the parts you see now, and this is the opportunity.

[00:09:04] I do honestly believe creativity will be the Trojan horse. I think, we will continue to differentiate ourselves through creativity. It's what we know. I think it's what we're sort of good at. And I think it really will be when, when the competitive set, not just from brands, but rights holders, they're competing with a lot of the same audience.

[00:09:22] We've gone through these phases in the sports industry of We've had data this, we've had digital this, we've had social purpose this. I actually think we're coming into a new phase of creativity is going to be that differentiator. So that also excites us because it's what's required, but it needs to be completely, how do we describe, amplified by technology and enabled by data, perhaps is how we would look at it.

[00:09:43] And then you've got something where it's all merged as opposed to one or the other. And that's where you're probably seeing the likes of Gareth and, Two Circles guys are looking to invest in different areas, which is the right thing to do. We're going to be investing in broad areas as opposed to being a one trick pony.

[00:09:58] So it's the combination of it, and I think the nature of the work then will be better, but I do think that creative flair is of real value to clients, because it's a lot of stuff we're still being asked to do, and I think, from an employee perspective, people want to work on that stuff. So it's our, our, our ambition is to create a little super group, if you like, that has that creative spirit right through the culture, not just a creative department sitting over here and we have to go and default.

[00:10:28] It's actually a spirit within the place. okay. The question I asked before is it's quite an interesting moment to look at the marketplace with the agency market. What does it look like from your perspective? Because there is a question in a minute, which is what sort of thing are you going to buy?

[00:10:42] That's what everyone is asking. As soon as you say, Oh, what's Steve Martin Jamie up to? And they're like, I don't know. Well, I don't know, but they're up to something and I think they're going to buy something. So that will be the question. And whether you've revealed that on this podcast today is one question, but it's talking about areas.

[00:10:58] What's attractive when you look at the marketplace? What the clients want, I suppose, is the question. Well, we're not going to answer on this podcast what we're going to buy today. I think that's for, that's for sure. But um, because we don't know exactly yet.

[00:11:11] I think it's, as Steve was saying, building this, this incredible sport and entertainment agency group is going to be key. And it will always be discipline neutral. And it will be, we, we believe passionately. in using the power of sport and entertainment to help brands, talent and rights holders , to create more deeper emotional connections for brands, talents and rights holders.

[00:11:32] So we believe in that. And the way you do that is, is through social. Yes, it's through talent. Yes, it might be helping them sell rights more effectively. So I think some rights holders sell the rights well, uh, some rights holders not at all. So it will be those areas of, you know, social and talent and rights holders.

[00:11:49] And creativity will always be needed by brands and rights holders to help, help them, reach their fans more effectively and create those sort of deeper emotional connections. So, in terms of exactly what we buy, we don't know. We just know that whatever we buy needs to fit into that belief in the power of sport and entertainment to actually make a significant difference to brands and rights holders.

[00:12:09] The only thing I would say is, there are not that many independent agencies either. I think, It's, this is a global play. This isn't a domestic play either. So our big focus is going to be obviously get it right here because I think the market's incredibly strong. US is huge and the huge potential.

[00:12:27] We saw that in our old shop that when we got the US right, it was suddenly really jumped significantly in terms of the scale and the nature of the work. And we were probably only halfway through the journey there. I think I looked at the Aussie market, which actually 27 million people. Sport and entertainment world is right at the top of that and actually there's so many good agencies, brands activating proper, like it's proper stuff.

[00:12:51] I was really surprised when it, when I was down there, those couple of years to see that. And then I think there's a big opportunity across Europe as well because what we're seeing across the German market is really, really strong and the Netherlands is really strong. Some great agency talent, great brands activating there.

[00:13:07] So I think it'll, it'll be, what are we good at and how do we sort of reinforce that? Yeah. I think our first focus will be on that, those creative shops to really boost that and turbocharge it. And then I do think the digital and social space, because there's, there's quite a, a lot of good agencies I think around at the minute in that digital and social space, because that can, can add to it.

[00:13:29] And I also think the experiential side is really interesting for us. Coming out of COVID, you've seen more and more and more brands putting big money into live experiences, not just for clients, but potential clients. Look at Champions League of the weekend. It was huge. So, so that's where we'll be fishing.

[00:13:44] But the focus is to build this really strong point of view, organic agency first, which then hopefully this feels like a bit of a movement. We're onto something here. People want to join it. Either employees come to join it or, or, or agencies. But as I say, come back to it, we're realistic enough to say some really great agencies are part of the big group.

[00:14:05] But some aren't and they watch out because there's a vanity around all of this as well, which you've got to be careful of because you're in the sort of private equity world as well. That you're not just buying something to sort of, put the press release out the next day. It's actually, you have to buy a business that is a very, very good business, number one, and has huge potential and that's getting the crystal ball out.

[00:14:28] And then secondly, there's a culture clash. The beauty of our model, there's going to be no culture clash. Because we're creating something from the start, and even in our old sort of M& C days, it could have been quite clunky. We did a few M& A pieces that actually worked out pretty well, but you've got to really work hard at them.

[00:14:47] I think that this model is, if we're going to buy something, we can create that culture pretty quickly, and be more flexible on it, and less rigid. So we're quite excited about that. I think there's a lot of pitfalls in that as well, though, being realistic. You don't want to be buying agencies that have one client and they're over reliant on one client.

[00:15:07] I think that's dangerous as well. I was going to say what the red flags are. We just had a conversation about this in a different context about talking to a private equity guy about red flags, in terms of when you look at agencies, when you go in the door, What do you look for? Regardless of what they're doing?

[00:15:26] What else is there? I mean, it's, we're a people business, right? So first and foremost, it's like, can we get on with these people? Can we work with them? And do they have that same sort of entrepreneurial spirit that we have? And the red flags are, one of the big red flags is often when you buy, buy businesses, that they just want to get some money and run for the hills.

[00:15:47] And you want to find a business that's like, they've got to a certain point. They want to release some money because they've earned it. But they see the opportunity of now going again and making what they have even stronger and even better. And so you, you just, you have to spend quite a lot of time with people and get to know them and make sure they're the right cultural fit with you.

[00:16:07] And then you can make anything happen. It's quite, it's tricky that isn't it? It's a really good point agencies are very, sometimes, quite small organizations, really, and they're driven by a, someone at the top or a team at the top who have sort of pushed, pushed, pushed, very entrepreneurial.

[00:16:22] And then they get to a different level and they get to a different stage. And then when someone comes and buys them, it's quite hard to keep that person or those that team interested. Don't know how you do that. It's a real conundrum. It is. We've seen that opportunity before over the last 20 years. It's, I think you've got to work so hard at the culture side and making people feel really good about themselves and be really clear where your ambition is.

[00:16:46] Like where are we heading? We're buying you not to, we're not buying you just for numbers because we're buying potential as well. So I think if we can bring our experience together to maybe take a domestic agency and help globalise it, that could be quite interesting. But there's a lot of good shops I think that would come on board that they're three, four, five years in.

[00:17:06] It took us 20 years to build that bloody scale into before, so it's, it's a lot of graft and hopefully we've learned an awful lot in the way. So I think it's, it's hopefully they can lean on us from our experience, but also we're leaning on them and their ambition and fueling that ambition and making sure they're rewarded for that ambition.

[00:17:24] But at the same time that everybody knows where they're going and there's a sort of, a big thing at the end of it potentially. But so it's, it's. Like there's a lot of work to be done on that and it's pretty forensic. There's a lot of rumours Like it's hot from that perspective. But I think we go into it in a very realistic way that you buy for all the right reasons, it's not a vanity play.

[00:17:51] What did you learn about the American market? Because the American market is, the cliché, it's very beguiling, it's massive, but it's very insular. And It's hard to crack from outside. Very much, and I think it was a very slow burn for us. We had, I think we hired really well there, but it was a very slow burn, and if you look at the sports industry, never mind the sports and entertainment and lifestyle play, which is what we really, that was the constant evolution, I think the success of Sport and Entertainment at MNC Saatchi was that, like we were constantly restless to build that.

[00:18:25] That wasn't just reliant on just sport. Whereas the US market tends to be quite disparate. There are big, chunky sports agencies that have been there for years, very hard to break down. Huge relationships, astronomical money that is going on in that market. We decided, no, we're going to be more of a boutique player there.

[00:18:46] And we're going to be more of a sport entertainment lifestyle business because then you can be a bit complimentary. So it's very hard, very hard to break through into that really big stuff. And the acquisitions would be absolutely huge. However, if you look at the level of sponsorship in those markets, whether it's NFL, NBA, MLB, whatever it may be Those second, third, fourth tier sponsor partners all need to activate something.

[00:19:10] They're not, they're finally woken up there I think after a long period of time that it isn't a badging exercise. Whereas I think the market here was way more sophisticated actually in the activation side particularly in digital and social. I think the opportunity there is to go into those sort of maybe lower tier sponsors.

[00:19:27] I'd rather we were a boutique hotel if you like to stay in as opposed to a mass. Global Hilton style, business. Because I think we could be an alternative in that market. And I think that could be really interesting. And we learned from our New York business that, uh, and our North America business, I should say that when you get it right, even half right there, it can be really scalable, but it's a hard, it's a, it's a hard nut to crack.

[00:19:51] And I'm not sure many people have cracked it apart from some of the really big guys. A lot of it is so, devolved to the states almost, isn't it? Each, each city has its own ecosystem around the, big teams. And, that's the, the engine of it is just a different marketplace than it feels.

[00:20:09] Yeah, I was at a leaders event couple of weeks ago there. And they did it with Sport Business Journal. It was very good. And I sort of go to some of those things and I go, oh, I don't want to hear this. The American guys and girls, they sell incredibly well. Like, they really do tell stories beautifully.

[00:20:26] And I think it's their, their, their creativity is suddenly catching up. It used to be like a big media bind and that, there's a big broadcast play and what the broadcast looks like dictates what the sponsorship's all about. But I think they're finally waking up to it. There's a much bigger ecosystem around the media, around sport and actually we need to be creative around that and create the right content around it and maybe engage with an audience in a different way.

[00:20:47] So it felt like it had moved even from two years ago. We were in um, Keep referencing Madrid. We entered the ECA thing that did a thing in Madrid. It's really good. What a city that is, by the way.

[00:20:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incredible place. We didn't see much of it, did we? It's probably far out of the hotel. Anyway, it's a great city. I've heard it's a really nice city. We'll take your word for it. Yeah so, And a lot of the conversation was, okay, what is a football club now, which it feels like a sort of big question, but a lot of it is, are we a creative shop?

[00:21:22] Can we do all this in house? So can we take the word that you're talking about, what was traditional agency work and move it and, be a bit like, uh, Man United have got their own sort of creative agency that sits within, That's been a trend for a while and now people are saying, do you know what?

[00:21:37] I'm not sure we're any good at this or we're not as good as we thought, or it's harder work or it's culturally different and whatever. What do you think? How's that going to evolve? Because that feels like you're coming in here. That's a bit of the marketplace that we're in. I'm expecting you to pick up clients, but I'm wondering what the market is now for that.

[00:21:54] Yeah. In housing as it's called in the game. Yeah. That's what it was called. It's been around for a long time. Actually, and it's also circuit. It goes in cycles as well. It does. And there's sort of, again, I don't know whether it's a budget thing sometimes, or they want to bring things closer to home and control their messaging and all the rest of it.

[00:22:15] All depend, a lot of agencies have been white labelling teams and putting them in, and that's their in housing, but it's still an agency resource, and the numbers still go into the agency P& L, by the way. So it's, it's hot and cold, I would say. We've seen some stuff, I saw some really good work of that actually down in Australia as well.

[00:22:31] I thought Optus did that particularly well. And the Telco side, they cleared up the YES agency was part of that. I thought it was really, really good. We've obviously seen that trend in clubs. all over the world. I dunno, sometimes if you're very close to something, you don't get that objective objectivity around that creative.

[00:22:48] So there's always work that needs to be on outside looking in, I should say. And it tends to be those things happen for a few years and then they go, actually, there's briefs going to go out again. But we believe that certainly rights holders. Have started to behave like brands over the last few years because they've suddenly realized they need to have a, almost like a D to C proposition.

[00:23:12] And, we were getting so many briefs from rights holders that we never had three, four years ago. Suddenly waking up to, Oh my God, we need a campaign and we need to go direct to our fan base rather than through our sponsors the whole time. So I think that gives a huge opportunity for us, I think, as an agency Be again, more across that, not from pure in housing, but become a resource for all those rights holders.

[00:23:36] You're suddenly waking up going, we need that creative flair, because actually a lot of those sports need more attention. A lot of those clubs, their competitive set is beyond belief and they've got to cut through in the same way as a brand has to cut through. Do you think it's sustainable, that, that trend?

[00:23:50] Do you think it's something that's going to be a longer term trend? What, the in housing trend? Yeah, or just, whether it's in housing or just, that rights holder as entertainment brand. I do, yeah. I do, because I think the ones that are really, really working, have an entertainment lens and everything, and they should.

[00:24:06] I do. Because sport is quite good at navel gazing too much and they're, can be very vertical and I'm not saying, that everybody wants to grow their fan base and everyone wants to extend it, let's bring this audience in, the Gen Z audience, let's do it. I get all that but actually the opportunity here is to just connect with your fan base in a better way and have that constant loyalty and then you build and build and build.

[00:24:29] I'm not sure it's a trend that we're going to see everybody doing that because One, it's not a cheap exercise either and I think it should come out of marketing working budget as opposed to headcount and that's where they always get the drama. And how do they, how is, what's the return argument on it, as in on the investment on that bit of it?

[00:24:50] So are they saying they're generating, this is what sponsors want so we'll do it because that's, they're creating assets for sponsors, is that how they'll monetize it? Possibly, and that's a way to do that but I think it's a bit controlled. I'm actually having, if you look at some of the football teams I think are particularly good at, particularly digital and social side.

[00:25:11] And they're asking a lot of the players and they're asking a lot of the managers and you want to all fit closer to Spurs and I want to fit closer to Liverpool and JB sadly wants to fit closer to Everton. Yeah, speed. Yeah. And I think it is that speed but also familiarity because, They're asking a lot of, the really contemporary clubs now need their players to be on it, and they need to be open, and they need to be accessible.

[00:25:33] So they're going to need teams that are familiar, and they're there on the ground. So I think the stuff that probably should be kept in house is that constant drumbeat of social. But I think the big set piece stuff could maybe be looked at in terms of having more objectivity around it. So it can work both, it can work both ways.

[00:25:52] Are all the answers in terms of your, the, the acquisitions, and again, I get, I hear you. You're not gonna name who it is. We are also on day four of the rich of the business. So I mean, we move fast. We don't move that fast , but I'm wondering, is the arm, are all the solutions in sport already?

[00:26:10] Is that or is it something that you are, is it outside? Trying to second guess what the market needs And that's, that's what I said about the crystal ball. We're trying to buy businesses that have potential and to come with us in this sort of, momentum that we will hopefully start and this movement that we'll sort of create, I hope. But you've got to make sure that. We're building it as opposed to, we don't want to buy something in the trenches.

[00:26:36] So, that's where I think it's going to be the science behind it's going to be really important to get that absolutely right. But it still has to be a gut feel as well. I think there is an opportunity though to create this alternative group. That's why we're here because if we create an alternative group, that's, put them on the pitch list and have a crack at it.

[00:26:53] Everybody loves an idea. Everybody loves creative. Everybody loves that bit of flair and I think we're going to dramatize that so that'll be a natural way for us, an area for us to focus on because I think the danger is if you generalize too much, you're just, I think the work becomes flat.

[00:27:10] I think one of the big reasons we've come to MSQ is because they're deep belief in specialists. They really, really believe in specialist agencies and I've always said, Jamie and I have said this for years, that, you're easier to buy as a specialist, and there's so much navel gazing in, in agency land.

[00:27:27] What's our product? What do we do? Like at the end of the day, what our clients want, they want great creative ideas. They want really precise delivery. They want, a spirit of growth and counsel and advice, to, to, to make them feel good, but also make the work good that is then highly measured.

[00:27:45] So, Yeah, I think one of the things is really driving that specialism and that will probably lead us down particular routes to buy, but there's going to be a, like there's an art form to M& A, it's not sort of, oh that looks good and just. Do things on a whim. But we haven't sat there for the last six months sort of, you know, pushing the paper around.

[00:28:05] We've sort of thought like we have some targets and hopefully they'll, they'll, come out in the wash pretty soon. But we have targets and there's areas that we would naturally gravitate towards, but we're not going to say it's easy because it's going to be quite tricky to do. I'm sure there'll be.

[00:28:19] Opportunities to rise. We don't even know what they are right now. I think we just, we want to have a sort of open door policy and sort of, just be quite flexible in that approach. And that's why this group is so important because of the skillsets they currently have. There'll be some things we won't need to touch, but like that particular agency or offer, for example, and then we pair it with the tech piece here and the data piece here, we could actually make that agency significantly stronger.

[00:28:44] Because what we have here, so that's why coming here was so attractive, because they've got a lot of great stuff already. They really wanted to get into sport and entertainment space, which we will now help them do. But they, they've got a lot of, they've got a lot of toys and tricks and stuff to play with that will hopefully help, help us build the group.

[00:29:01] So, we've, we've got a sort of a rough plan, but we've also, it's a flexible one. It's got to be, right? Because you just don't know. Are you going to Cannes? Uh, yes, we are here. You? Probably. Probably. We're, we're Tell you in an hour. Yeah, we're, we're, we find out, but we were going to go and then we weren't and now we probably are, but Yeah.

[00:29:22] It's interesting, have you been there recently? I haven't been for a while, It's interesting. You're going to be doing something there, hopefully? Great. That'd be great. Well, it's, it's sort of, It's leading into question about what good work, what good creative is now in sport and entertainment, and whether, and that's a decent lens into that question because it's global and it's got all those things.

[00:29:43] And there's a question there about what you, what you've admired , recently, what sort of work catches your eye? I think it's interesting on Cannes, just while you're on it, that, We were going down there for a long time and sort of got a little bit put off because it was so advertising led.

[00:29:58] Yeah, yeah. But okay, we had very high number of wankers. We're going to add to it then, four of us go, four more. Yeah, it was almost like This is just big advertising, creative, and, and tech, a lot of tech, yeah, and tech, and that's right, and everybody's selling it, whereas it became very salesy. I think it's got a lot better recently, that the work has got significantly better, the showcases, and actually, you know what's great about it?

[00:30:26] Sport is massively part of it now. Used to be like, you never, you heard a few things, but. It was more big ad agencies coming in and puffing their chest and it was big 30 second TV spots, or maybe a mini documentary. It was sort of set piece stuff that you'd expect. Some great talkers, great speakers and all that.

[00:30:46] But I think it's been brilliant to see just the nod to how important sport and entertainment is to that industry. Because everybody now understands that the sports and entertainment, particularly sports audiences, They're absolutely huge. They're not going away. They're quite easy to find, those audiences.

[00:31:03] And it's sort of everything's transcending everything else and converging. Music and fashion and sport and life. It's all, it's all one big thing. And I think some of the investment, some of the brands have been putting into it. I'm really, I'm really actually quite excited to go down there again and hopefully see that it's moved on a bit.

[00:31:20] And share a glass or two with you boys. I mean like the sport beach that Stagwell run is. I mean, it kind of took over Canton last year. I mean, it really did. It was incredible. So, and I'm looking forward to getting down there and genuinely going to spend, a good full day just going around looking at all the work.

[00:31:33] I'm looking forward to it. I mean, because you do see, you do see some incredible stuff down there. What I like about the shortlist, and we've done a couple of things, and we've got, we've got another one coming out in terms of, what, how to win a Can Lion, is the, the headline. But what I like about the list, there's a couple of things.

[00:31:49] One is, one thing I like is the international element to it. So, and it's really interesting how, Like, Buenos Aires is a real hot spot, Iceland, just, just things that are coming out with really smart, clever ideas and that's the good bit of it. And then you've got, there aren't many laughs in that short list.

[00:32:07] It's a lot, it's very purpose driven. It's very sort of. But do you not think that's the industry generally? Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, it reflects that. I would like to see a counter to that. I think there is a bit more, a bit more of a response to it, but it's still, you can see that, that it could be rightsholder driven or it could be brand driven or whatever, but it's, you end up in some fairly traditional purposey territory.

[00:32:32] And it's very hard to be entertaining from that position, isn't it? It has, and I think it's maybe the judging criteria, etc. That's, I also think that's the phase of marketing we've been in about sustainability and social purpose and all that and it's right and it's been brilliant but you can still do that through an entertaining lens.

[00:32:49] Yeah, I think a lot of the awards recently have been quite, oh okay, reasonably flat and that's not us, certainly not us trying to be smart asses at all because a lot of our work has been in that but I think you're, you're governed in these guardrails of you gotta tick this and tick this and tick this.

[00:33:05] Which is absolutely fine, but you can still do it with flair. And I think the, there's an opportunity within that creative space to bring that light touch back to things. And you've seen it with, I really quite like what Paddy Power have done recently. Again, it's sort of quite funny. It's good creative stuff.

[00:33:22] There's a real opportunity in there that doesn't, that's not dismissing anything else. And obviously, in times of drama and my God, there's plenty of drama in the world at the minute. People too. do tend to default to their passions more and they'd still want to be entertained because not everything can be really bad news or whatever.

[00:33:41] That's also shining light on the really brilliant parts of the sport and entertainment world. So I think there's a huge creative opportunity there. So it'll be very interesting to see if things have changed and maybe a lighter touch to things next week. Which we'll see. And also the measurement side of it, which is more news on that coming soon, hopefully in terms of.

[00:34:00] How brands measure the effectiveness in sponsorship. It's been that sort of perennial thing. The industry has struggled with a little bit and we were breakfast this morning with someone going to be pitching for some work, in about a month's time, it was talking about the current agency obsessed with wanting to win a can line and that didn't give a damn about whether it had any impact or what the measurement of it was.

[00:34:22] We just want to win a can line. It was just like, I work in a business that actually is, we need to deliver some output and impact, and yes, we love creativity and stuff like that, so, I do want to see if, how the sort of, the measurement side of things is being looked at as well, because I, I just think it's something that the industry, Has struggled with and still does a little bit.

[00:34:42] And it just gets often, it just gets sort of, it just gets added into all the brand measurement. Right. And it's just, it's just, it is different. It is slightly different because you're dealing very much with people's emotions and feelings. And you've kind of got half open door when you're involved in sponsorship because you're, they're already really passionate and love the thing that you are wanting to then piggyback on.

[00:35:02] So you've got to measure, you've got to be really smart in the way you measure it. The impact and the effectiveness that you're having. So, I think that's an area that, I think the industry definitely, that would be something we're, what we definitely are looking at it. With our friends in Common Garden.

[00:35:17] It's really hard, isn't it? It's really hard, yeah. That sort of attribution of the sponsorship into, into, It always has been though, hasn't it? It's like this perennial debate, I think, there has to be some solution to it. There's enough tech capability, there's enough insight into social listening, you can actually have a really clear point of view now.

[00:35:35] I think there's too many excuses, I think we, we, we want to build something that's quite special as well. We're looking at a, building this proprietary tool at the moment because we think it's got an opportunity to measure better, but more than a live capable capability. Because things are happening at a rate of knots, like, everyone moves on very, very quickly.

[00:35:54] And also I think, the world in the sport and entertainment particularly is so dynamic. We're moving on to the next thing. We've got a Champions League now, we're focused on, Euros starting. So that's only in football, never mind anything else. So it's so dynamic. And I think sponsors need to have that, brands need to behave in a more dynamic way to move with those times.

[00:36:13] Also the argument Do they need to measure on it? Is it even working? The creative argument has always been the gap between Certainty and, the doubt in the middle between the creative work. That's where the money is, isn't it? You don't want to measure creativity. It's very dangerous for this is always the advertising market place.

[00:36:31] They were saying, well, no, fuck that. You're ruining the magic. That was always the argument. Again, the worry about Google is that, hang on, you can take all the creativity away and we're not going to get paid But I think we've seen, examples over the years, whenever there's been a complete refocus on, not looking at the brand play around a specific brand.

[00:36:49] I'm not going to name the brand, but we know what happened. Their brand score went through the floor whenever they didn't do the big set piece. Brand magic, it became performance led and digitally led only, and the brand score dropped through the floor. Yeah. And I think we're seeing a new phase of, oh, hold on a minute, that hasn't quite worked, because that's a big marketplace down there.

[00:37:08] It's quite noisy, there's a lot of old media buys, whatever. If you don't have a big point of view to stand out because you look at, look at, look at the sponsors around sport, how many beer brands, how many telcos, how many, broadcasting, it's so noisy. So you can't play down here, you need to play up here in the brand space.

[00:37:27] So I think that's it, that's a huge opportunity, but it still needs to work and it still needs to be measured because everybody wants to re sign these things as well, but they're not going to, and the numbers are huge for some of these contracts now that they need to know it's actually working.

[00:37:40] What do you think of the sort of, when you look at the sports market, in terms of the big ticket sponsorships, you've got the, say Toyota came off the top programme last week, you've got movements around Champions League, you've got the big, World Cup sponsorships. What's that market like?

[00:37:56] , what do they want? They just want a global agency that does everything? Is that right? No, not necessarily because I think you probably want a consistency. The Coca Cola's of the world in 180 odd markets will want a consistency around a World Cup or an Olympics or whatever, so it doesn't look like a dog's dinner in one market and something else in another.

[00:38:16] So you want to have some sort of framework to that, but you still need local nuance. And I think what we've always sort of thought as an agency is, we don't mind working with anybody. I think we should be an agency just because we've got a name above the door. We can go and work with, particularly our work with O2.

[00:38:32] Previous life with VCCP, they owned that O2 relationship, but we absolutely focused on the rugby side with them on the whole wear the rose thing we created. And, it was a lovely rhythm, but in terms of globally, we were so used to working. We weren't in every market, absolutely not in every market, but we worked with Coca Cola and the Heineken business, et cetera, et cetera, for years.

[00:38:52] Obviously my Adidas experience, in my house we worked. truly global stuff, but you maybe worked with 10, 12 agencies. I think, I think as long as there's a global heartbeat and a consistency and a campaign, then it was our job to make sure, we had the OCD approach to making sure it absolutely worked for them through that.

[00:39:10] And we became, I wouldn't say brand police on it, but making sure that everything clicked locally. So I don't know, it's a difficult thing to do. The broader big sponsorship market, everything's selling. No, if you look around that, World Cups selling, Euros selling, FA Cup selling, still even local markets, Olympics, I mean, Team GB, I think they've done particularly well as well.

[00:39:36] So everything is selling and I think that's gives you great hope for the future. We 12 years ago around, I remember around 2012, like people weren't worried about whether things were selling, all the big stuff selling. And the, the growth of new brands has been absolutely extraordinary over the last five or six years, so it's fueled the market.

[00:39:57] So I think that's not, I don't think that's going away, which is a great, which is a great thing. Obviously you'd seen the example of Toyota, which we talked about last week and saw them coming off. That seemed for different reasons, that was almost felt like a transparency reason, or where's their money going?

[00:40:12] I'm surprised they didn't ask that on the way in, or asked if that was one of their measures. Well, Let us know where it's going and tell us and we'll measure against it as well. So I don't know there might be, I like a sort of exit because it it's quite messy and it's quite interesting, it's just all the PR going in is, is, but I like, I like a, I like a messy exit.

[00:40:35] Gives you a story, gives you, by the way, that's the highs and lows of this game of why we're all still in it. And not everything's just completely rosy, but I think it's still quite newsy and exciting and those things coming out, like it's every day there's something, isn't there? Every day. I mean, how many podcasts are you on now?

[00:40:54] In terms of, I remember when you started out, so that, there's enough news and there's enough noise around the industry, nevermind just this market, but globally it's, it's constant. Again, that's part of why we're making a global play of this isn't just a sort of a domestic UK thing.

[00:41:10] Brilliant. Well, listen. Congratulations, I like that, I like the cotton garden, I've got a lot of cotton gardens, well bits of it, I like the, yeah, but uh, yeah yeah, good luck with it. Thank you very much, you're very very welcome, you're our first guest, so you know it feels shiny and new, and I think Jamie and I going through that, wow, like one minute we're waking up, literally scared, and the next minute excited.

[00:41:35] It's, we've got that feeling all over again, which is like 20 years ago, but I think we're more excited to have to be honest with you. And, we've a lot of pressure on our shoulders to make it happen and make it work. And we're going to rely on a lot of people sort of jumping on board with us.

[00:41:50] But I think the opportunity to create this sort of dream team and a genuine dream team is something we've always wanted to do. So if we can build that team and, buy some. Really good partners to come on board with us and it just feels really fresh and different and we don't think anyone's doing that at the minute in terms of the, certainly with that creative spirit on it.

[00:42:10] So we hope we're doing the right thing and, but we're excited.