UP405 Wedge Issues: The Creation of Brand Bryson, and What It Means for Golf

Bryson Dechambeau heads to next week’s Open Championship at Troon as the reigning US Open champion, having beaten Rory McIlroy down the straight at Winged Foot in New York three weeks ago, confirming the American’s position as one of the very best players in the world today. 

But this is a conversation about what he’s done off the course over the last three years, that has changed his public image by becoming one of the most followed creators on social media.

Brand Bryson is a masterclass in sports digital media strategy, a playbook as to how best to use YouTube, TikTok, Instagram and Twitter to build long term value, both for himself and by extension the sport of golf. 

The bigger question is what the Dechambeau case study means for traditional rights holders such as the PGA TOUR, DP World Tour and the R&A.

Our guests are Carsten Thode and  Rich Johnson.

Carsten is a former Reuters, Manchester United and Synergy Sponsorship is co-founder of Aphetor, the Creator Games., which connects internet influencers with sports event rightsholders. 

Rich was formerly head of content for INEOS Grenadier Cycling Team, and the founder of Sports 3.0, which creates specialist agencies at the intersection of sports content, media, and technology. He’s launched a new agency this week, called CAPTAIN, a personal content agency for founders, CEOs & commercial teams in sports.

Welcome to Wedge Issues, an Unofficial Partner Production.

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Transcript

Wedge Issues: The Creation of Brand Bryson and what it means for golf

An Unofficial Partner Production

Bryson Dechambeau heads into next week's Open Championship at Troon as the reigning US Open champion, having beaten Rory McIlroy down the straight at Winged Foot in New York three weeks ago, confirming the American's position as one of the very best players in the world today. But this is a conversation about what he's done off the course of the last three years. That's changed his public persona. By becoming one of the most followed creators on social media. So I talked to two experts in sports, digital media strategy about brand Bryson, one of the best current examples of how to use YouTube, Tik, TOK, Instagram, and Twitter to build long-term value both for himself and by extension the sport of golf. The bigger question for golf and for sport more generally is what the Dechambeau case study means for traditional event rights holders, such as the PGA tour, the DP World tour, and the RNA who hosts. Next week's open championship at Troon. 

[00:02:25] My guests are cost and toady and Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner. Carston is formally from Reuters, man, United and synergy sponsorship. And is co-founder of the creator games, which connects internet influencers with sports event rights holders. Rich was formally had a content at the, any OSS Greenwich. Grenederes cycling team. And is the founder of sports 3.0, which create specialist agencies at the intersection of sports, content, media, and tech. He launched a new agency this week called captain, which is about personal content for. Founders CEO's and commercial teams in sports. And I'm Richard Gillis. 

[00:02:59] So welcome to where'd your shoes. And Unofficial Partner production. 

[00:03:10] Carsten Thode: Did you see that amazing clip of that pro woman golfer, who was 

[00:03:14] on a driving range sort of rearranging her swing a little bit, and some dude comes and is trying to give her advice and giving it the whole, How he's been playing golf for 20 years. And she's like, no, no, really.

[00:03:25] I'm a pro.

[00:03:26] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: I know. I follow her on TikTok and this is part of this conversation is that this whole world. And this is what we're going to talk about is just, it's really, that's how I follow golf now. I'm The classic Masters Open, maybe the US Open, maybe a couple of other events, Ryder Cup, Solheim, and then the rest of it is just consumed on the clips, and, uh, it's really interesting.

[00:03:50] I and the whole point of this conversation is really, I think that Bryson just crystallizes quite a few different threads that we can get into. I find Bryson interesting and always have done, not always for positive reasons, but I'm really interested in what he's doing now, why he's doing it. I think there is a sort of nice structure to the conversation that we're going to have. So what, why, how, and then we'll throw it forward in terms of what the implications are and what happens next and et cetera, et cetera. But with him, there is definitely a before and after thing. And I, there's a sense that he has definitely changed. His reputation and his brand. And there's a whole question in here about the value of personal brands and all of that stuff, which we might get into, but I just want to starting point from both of you, Carsten, why don't you go first? Just. Give me a sense of that first thing, what's happening here and your view of Bryce and DeChambeau.

[00:04:49] Carsten Thode: look at the end of the day, he is a, one of the best golfers in the world and being one of the best golfers in the world, pushing that sort of envelope of performance is a very sort of rarefied error, I guess you could say. Right. And actually what's interesting about Bryson is he was On the cutting edge of that rarefied air in terms of, how he's trying to reshape his body and, the length of his clubs and, the way he was sort of applying various scientific performance led, marginal gains type thinking to golf.

[00:05:18] So he's like, so he's at this, at this edge of golf, which is, not many people inhabit, right. It's like, it's like a, a grain of sand in a whole bunker of golf culture, right. Because, my. My experience of golf is not that. And actually, what I think Bryson is doing is he is. Tapping into the every day, the every man's experience of golf rather than that super rarefied air, right? So there are 80 million golfers in the world. Only 10 of them think on that sort of performance spectrum or that performance on the spectrum, the other, 79 million, 990, 000 are, are really, tapping into that broader golf culture and it's, it's actually more relevant and it's more relatable and it's more entertaining and, and, those are the things that he can get on at his YouTube channel that he just couldn't get at when his entire persona was based on, his, his obsession around performance.

[00:06:09] And so, so for me, it's an incredibly smart play, which is just about becoming relevant and, uh, resonating with a much bigger audience than he was able to do. Purely when he's in a box of, one of the best golfers in the world.

[00:06:22] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Rich, what do you think?

[00:06:23] Rich Johnson: Yeah. , actually really got me into golf like many people I've sort of like dabbled over the years, but then with. The dreaded C word COVID, uh, start to explore it, explore it a little bit more cause obviously it was one of those like first things that you could, you can get out and do and, and, just kind of like.

[00:06:41] Well, got the bug of, of watching it as well. And again, Bryson really intrigued me because, I quite like that, like, contrarian approach. Obviously he was, the scientist and was trying to find all the different ways in which he could, make gains and and yeah, it was kind of amazing to see his physical transformation, but also what he was then doing , to get a technical edge.

[00:07:02] I even got, also got single length clubs, 

[00:07:04] uh, inspired by 

[00:07:05] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Do they work? 

[00:07:06] Rich Johnson: Not for me. They work for him, not for me. I must have the wrong length. But I think he, my personal opinion, because again, when I, when I first was getting into golf and obviously wanting to talk about golf with my friends and, new kind of golf groups that I get involved in, it's always very much like, Oh, Bryson was such a jarring character up there with like Patrick Reed you 

[00:07:29] know, of like dislikable, uh, character on the tour.

[00:07:33] I think obviously a few things came into that, Because people said he was slow and, he did have some slow rounds. Obviously at that time as well, he was talking the talk, right? And I think this is a big thing. He's talking the talk, getting, giving everyone this insight into these technical innovations that he thinks he's stumbled on, but without the real major success that.

[00:07:53] Obviously when Tiger did all the innovations back in the day that he was able to see through. And so then I think that gives people a lot of skepticism around him thinking he's a bit of a all talk, kind of no substance. I think again, he got kind of, cause of the, the way he is, he got kind of put into this like bro personality of like this, almost quite a serious guy.

[00:08:12] And I think, It's been so cool, I think, to see the public transformation of his image but I think there's a couple of real specific things that that comes down to one of which is clearly, despite him going to live, whichever men people could think of would be the end of his career.

[00:08:28] Actually, as, as, as Evolved into him obviously winning, uh, winning another US Open, but obviously there's other reasons as well in terms of how he's approached in a very different way and understood the power of content and storytelling.

[00:08:41] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: the live thing is that, think it's central actually. And I think that even down to the incentive for doing it. So there is something quite interesting that I want to get to, which is to do with.

[00:08:51] where value resides in a sporting event or a sport for a sports rights holder and its relationship to the athlete. So you've got the athlete and you've got, the PGA tour, you've got Live Golf. And one of the founding sort of Storms or, conversations was Phil Mickelson making the point that, they wanted more freedom and they wanted to, to do stuff on online, there's a quote here. So DeChambeau at the press conference, a couple of months ago. He said, when I started my YouTube channel, I felt like there was a missing hole in the game of golf, where you look at guys like Mr. Beast or David Dobrik or whatever. That are influencing a lot of people in the world. And I saw that market back in 2020.

[00:09:36] And I said, man, if the golf industry, if golf could tap into that just a little bit, how many more followers we would get, how many more players we would get, how the game would just explode. If we could just barely tap into a percent or a couple of percent of that. So again, a nice framing of the initial Strategy. I'm with you, Rich. I think initially it was, he's arrogant. He was, I remember, silly quotes about, well, I'm Augusta is about a par 67 for me. There was a whole, the clip with Brooks Koepka and that feud, which again was a bit confected, but it was all about him slow play. And, and there's a great clip of him being, Koepka being interviewed and then Bryson walks behind him.

[00:10:17] And that went viral for a while. And you can see that, there was antipathy there. So all of that is in there. Golf plays an interesting role if you look at, and this is particularly in the States where you've got the sort of barstool positioning and golf in that.

[00:10:30] And you've got the barstool bros and golf and Bryson seemed to fit that very well. Now, whether that's,, the area that he wanted to be in. Now, the brand of Bryson is, as you say, a much more open, it seems to be a more intelligent person there, a broader person. And again, that's what social media presumably can do.

[00:10:53] That's one of the advantages. What do you think about where the value is and how, and Karsten, you must have thought about this long and hard in terms of that relationship between, social media is the battleground for where they can exercise or where they can make that change. Now, whether it's commercial value, and that's a separate, slightly separate question, but there's also just the comparison, what, what an event is. And you can see that actually an event through the eyes, if you look at Live or you even look at the tour, you can start to see it as, as where social media stars turn up and play. There's a, that's the extreme version of what a sports event is. What do you think?

[00:11:37] Carsten Thode: Look, I think it's, I think it's complimentary. And I think one of the, one of the challenges we have is that before social media existed and, the, the sort of, I guess the relatively long history of, of the commercialization of sport, the key to commercializing sport was this idea of exclusivity. Right? So you sold media packages, to various broadcasters and you worked your socks off to make sure that they had the exclusive right to create and distribute all the content associated with that. And, and, again, quite rightly, the same thing with sponsorship. You, you sold, your category exclusively and, and prevented anyone from even coming close to, stepping on that IP. And I in the. Current landscape. That's just the wrong thinking, right? I think the thinking now is almost the more content created by more people distributed more broadly, the better, right? There's no way that, the social media content that Bryson DeChambeau is creating is. In any way, cannibalizing Sky Sports's viewership of, the rights that they've acquired. In fact, it's the opposite. I think the more people follow Bryson DeChambeau and, connect with him as a person and relate to him as a person, the more people are going to tune in on Sunday when he's, when he's in the hunt on the last day of a, of a major championship.

[00:12:48] And that's just going to require a new kind of thinking from the rights holders, from the media companies to understand that it's all part of an ecosystem that all. Plays together in a way that is, brings value or there's value in every part of that ecosystem, right? And so, so for me, that's just the I don't think it's either, or I think it's an ad, right?

[00:13:08] There's, there's world class competitive stuff that happens on Sky Sports and everyone watches that for the reason they do. But then there's also, amazing social media clips that are shorter, more entertaining, more funny, get to different stories reveal different parts of the personalities.

[00:13:21] And then there's stuff that, That I guess what I'm going to call even before that, which is, what's the first piece of golf content, or where's the first time my 15 year old daughter is going to see Bryson DeChambeau because it's not going to be on Sky Sports and it's not going to be on Bryson DeChambeau's channel, right?

[00:13:36] So where's the next level down where sports are connected or where, something like golf is connected with a brand new audience. And that's all, that's all part of the same ecosystem and all important. And, and actually the bigger, each one of those concentric circles are the better it is for the sport. That's the way people need to start thinking about it.

[00:13:53] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: there is a problem, isn't there? And the inherent in that is the commercial question. Because as you say, commercial rights are sold on an exclusive basis. And , you know, we're coming into an Olympics where there's no greater example of the limitations on the athlete in terms of in this question. So. In terms of what you can and can't do online during the event, everything is seen as a competitor to the stuff that we've sold. And we've wrapped around the promise of exclusivity. So is that, just something that's going to have to change? Or is that's a mindset? That's a cultural thing within this business that we're talking about, the sports business, it's always been that way.

[00:14:30] And it's really going to be very hard to break that down.

[00:14:33] Carsten Thode: Exactly right. But I, I just think the question is, is that mindset fit for purpose in today's media environment? And I, I just, legitimately don't think it is. And I think that there are loads of ways that you can navigate that minefield in terms of the way you package up rights.

[00:14:48] I mean, the NFL has content everywhere. NBA has content everywhere. Right. And they, and they managed to commercialize it more successfully than anyone else. Right. So, so I think, look. It does require a major shift in mindset. I really think it's necessary.

[00:15:02] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Rich, what do you think?

[00:15:03] Rich Johnson: Yeah, I mean, honestly, that question on value, I think it comes down, yeah, obviously there's that commercial side because that is the value that drives a, any sport, but it really comes down to what matters, like what actually matters. We, whether anyone likes it or not, or finds it a challenge or not we live in a Permissionless era.

[00:15:22] So no one needs to ask permission to create golf content. It is going to happen whether you'd like it or not. And that's where, again, content has been on an absolute tear since COVID. Again, I'm part of that. I'm part of the number and as are millions, tens of millions of other people.

[00:15:39] If you, you can even do like simple comparisons. If you look at someone like a, one of our, UK's biggest golf exports, uh, Rick Shields on YouTube, probably about half a million subs there or thereabouts during COVID. I mean, maybe kind of got close to a million, close to the end of it.

[00:15:54] He's now on 2. 8 million. You've got good, good golf, really been driving forward the space. This content and this, and they're creating huge value for themselves, commercial value for themselves. We all know the power of, of Creators and, uh, and them creating content and what commercial value that drives.

[00:16:12] You think they've launched products and also the, all these other extensions of it. So whether you like it or not, they don't need permission to do that. That's going to happen anyway. So find the ways to leverage it and tap into it. And that's not just specific to, to, to to golf. I mean, you, if you think the third most popular YouTube channel in the world at the moment is, is Jesse's basketball creator.

[00:16:33] In the world, over every other sports brand. So, when you ask a question of value, that's value, and it's latent value. And ultimately, it's baked in value for, for the future. I think ultimately as well, it's so different to, Obviously like live rides and I think they can be super complimentary, but I think the trend is, is also going to be that coming closer together.

[00:16:55] There's some really interesting, I'm sure, sure, Kasson, it's something that you're thinking about, but there's this company in the States, Create Sports Network. They're thinking about how, can you give rights to creators to do live watch alongs? Obviously we're kind of getting more into the creator space rather than like just Bryson, but that for me is then the reason for Bryson obviously like doing this because, he's got, the creators can arguably give him more than, than he can give them to 

[00:17:19] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: That's what he's copying, isn't it? He's, that's what he's seen and is bringing in. , we had Sean Bratchies on from Live Golf who in the early days, this was, this was before it launched and, he took us into the strategy of it and it was, This bit of the conversation was sort of nascent. It wasn't quite there, but teams was. So again, one of the central components of it, which again is not often referenced very much, which is, can you name Bryson's team? I couldn't before I looked it up. So Crushers, there's some terrible names. I keep saying this, but the brands of these live teams are shocking and the High Flyers, Phil Mickelson's, uh, team, they're just, so anyway, you've got these and there's an idea that they're going to build value within those teams.

[00:18:09] And you can sort of see there's a, there's a., quasi IPL conversation to be had about that franchise valuations over time. And they, they, they put them in like formula one type grids and all of this stuff, which I can see, you can see the plan and it's where this fits in. And again, if I'm running the PGA tour or the European tour, what do I do with this data that I'm seeing in front of it? This, I'm collecting this information. How do I respond? Do you think, do you think they are able to respond given the, as we've said, the, the restrictions that they have in terms of the, their commercial model is based on exclusivity.

[00:18:47] Carsten Thode: it will take a while because as you say, they got to, some of the contracts will need to expire and they'll need to, uh, write new, new contracts that have, it takes slightly different approaches. I think, a lot of the executive teams there will have spent their entire life operating under this, one under one model and getting them to change to another model, even though they're, brilliant, uh, brilliant people.

[00:19:05] It's, it's, it's difficult to, to move in that direction. I think the team thing is, is interesting. Look, and, and, and again I suspect the team thing is really just a function of, Better content, right? I think, when, as soon as you have a team, it just, it just allows for more storylines and there's, more collaboration opportunities that happen and there's there's, uh, it's, it's like in the Olympics, there's someone potentially that you can get behind and you create , some kind of affinity with, which I know is in this case, in the golf case is not that easy, but, certainly certainly having teams makes for better content, if that makes sense. And, and makes for, richer storytelling angles and particularly something which, traditionally has been so individually focused like golf, whenever they, whenever they come together as a team, you, you've got some of those new dynamics that get introduced into the sport that are, that are, potentially compelling.

[00:19:54] So, I think it's interesting what they're doing. I think that what the PGA needs to do is probably, they're super smart people. So I'm not telling them anything they haven't thought of already, but I do think that they need to think about how the entire content ecosystem. Plays out together and compliments each other.

[00:20:09] So I do think they need to think about, what is really, exclusive to the broadcasters that they can't touch and everything else. I think they do need to relax a little bit, right? I do think they need to allow the players to maybe make their own content from the course. And maybe it's, it's like, they can't publish it for 24 hours after it happens or something, but they do need to think about how they open up that content ecosystem.

[00:20:34] So that as Rich said, which is quite right. Like anyone who wants to create golf content can create golf content. And, and I think, there's no one that's gonna be able to create better content than the PGA tour itself with all the tournaments that they have and the, and the players that they have and the access to creators that they have and the sponsors that they have.

[00:20:49] And I just think they need to embrace that opportunity and think about, social content as a, just another part of their, of their overall content.

[00:20:56] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Rich, what are the practical issues of letting everyone have, be their own creator within a event? So you've worked, you work in this world. For me, it just looks at this stuff and says, Oh yeah, they should all be creators, and there's a film crew with them and they should be, but if everyone is doing it, well, I just wondering what the talk to Olympic athletes, again, I don't, my head goes there because it sort of feels like that's the hardest nut to crack in this conversation, but there's a restrictions on what, just where they can film all of that stuff that comes from a sort of ambush marketing mentality, but there are problems, aren't there?

[00:21:29] There are challenges here.

[00:21:31] Rich Johnson: Uh, well, yes and no, probably not as many as you think. I mean, if you, listen, when you go to any sports event, any large scale sports event, how many photographers do you see? How many cameras do you see? There is lots already, there's already huge media presence. So yeah, kind of.

[00:21:51] Things like that can work on scale, but also like, this is the most powerful tool, mobile phone, tiny cameras, that is what you need. And ultimately, again, I think there's a, probably a huge misconception in terms of like, for some of this type of content, what it actually takes.

[00:22:07] Use prime example of, uh, My experience not golf related, Ineos Grenadiers again, we wanted to create more content, more, more storytelling video content. We didn't really have the budget nor the means or, or, or comfort to put a full time videographer, within the team and within the bus.

[00:22:24] But what we were able to do was have someone with a phone and a GoPro. And what we were able to create, again, it's, it was more vlog driven storytelling content as opposed to, what we see from Bryson and stuff doing is different challenges, , 

[00:22:39] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: I can sense my own expectations rising almost on a daily basis of my, my tolerance for low quality

[00:22:45] Rich Johnson: Hmm. 

[00:22:46] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: content there's a bit of it, which is, it used to be, okay, it's on telly, it's got to be proper, it's on social media, I don't care. Now we're seeing, you mentioned Mr. Beast, those are, those are big ticket productions and the quality production that is in there. So again, there's a bit of me that wants it to stay amateur hour, wants it to a bit low fi and a bit mobile phones. And, and, we're used to now the way in which news is produced.

[00:23:12] presented and it's bits of clips of, from terrible war scenes or whatever, but it's on a phone and obviously you accept that's part of the value exchange that they got there without a team of people. I'm wondering how that plays out, whether there's still, you're still going to have a sort of cottage industry of traditional, what we call social media creators, but as Mr.

[00:23:32] Beast is now, becoming, he's bigger than TV stars. There's a quality question there that I don't quite know where it's going to go,

[00:23:39] whether it's going to bifurcate into just two worlds, stay into two worlds, or there's going to be a just general rising of quality.

[00:23:46] Rich Johnson: I think there's a misconception between like what you use to capture something and then what equates to quality, quality. Now the quality of what we can do is like, obviously better than it's ever been from your phone. Yeah. Better from your phone than it was 15 years ago in, in, in broadcast.

[00:24:02] So it's not, that's not the main barrier. There, there is obviously still a huge skill when it comes to understand Understanding what makes good content. What are people actually going to watch and what should you produce and actually share? And by and large, most people get that wrong. That's why, good content is good content.

[00:24:24] So, I think, I think that's the thing. And, and yeah, this isn't, this isn't also to say that there isn't room for, obviously, I think Mr. Beast is on a different stratosphere that even like, uh, considering he's putting millions, tens of millions into every single production, I, I obviously think there's also like barriers and levels to, to that.

[00:24:43] But when it comes to sports, I, I don't think there's a worry that all of a sudden everyone's followed by a Netflix crew. Which are also remarkably small, most of the time, one shooter and a, and a sound boom 

[00:24:55] done. 

[00:24:55] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: also, I guess there's, there's, there's a sort of question of authenticity as well, which is quite interesting, isn't it? Because it's, it's the sort of, if it's on a phone, I think it's more authentic than if it's on a, TV quality, but actually. People are just, that isn't true, but it's, that's almost like a tone of voice being used there that tells a particular story. And it's, it's to do with the quality of what we're watching.

[00:25:20] Rich Johnson: I think there's more investment and Kasson, I'd be interested to get your view on this. I think there's more investment that's probably required for a, and, and in Bryson's case is probably under recognized for the. strategists and producers behind the scenes. And I think that's very much the case with Bryson, again, just pivoting it back to the, to the conversation, like, he's creating great content.

[00:25:41] He's not just going out there with another creator and, and, one cameraman flicking on the track. On the uh, press and record, it's it's clearly thought out. He has a very good cross platform strategy. He understands what, what works on TikTok and Reels and leans into that.

[00:25:55] And then does a great job on YouTube for, uh, obviously his team does a great job on YouTube as well of mapping out and strategizing what should they be shooting and when. So I think, again, there's probably more to be said for The incremental leverage that that could have rather than again, just as, as part of the overall pie, really.

[00:26:13] Carsten Thode: So the first thing I think is, the spectrum isn't, long content, short content, or, high production value content or low production value content or phones or cameras, the spectrum is good content and bad content, right? You can make great content, which is only, 15 seconds long and made on a camera. And it could be a lot better content than something you've. Spent a lot of money on on the other end of that spectrum. So I think that's the, that's the demarcation. I think your point about this sort of content strategy piece of the content performance piece, I think is, it's huge, right?

[00:26:43] And I think this is actually, one of the things that is super apparent as you work in the space is, I guess, Influencers as they used to be called or creators as they are, I guess, more now called people look down at them, right? And they think it's kind of like, someone, looking good on the beach, holding a cocktail, but these people are real craftspeople, right?

[00:27:03] They spend a lot of time thinking about not only what are good content ideas, but what the right execution is in terms of, how you capture people's attention in the first second. And, all the, what the thumbnail needs to be. They are. Absolutely laser focused on the analytics behind it.

[00:27:19] So they know exactly, what content, what piece of content is working well and what's not working well, where people are switching off from the content and they are, they are, they don't get to 2 or 5 million followers by accident, right? They get there because they're craftspeople and they work hard at it.

[00:27:34] Right. And so, I think that is a huge. sort of point to just emphasize that it's not easy to be a creator and have 5 million followers. What Mr. Beast does is not easy. It's not like anyone can do it. And I think that's, one of the reasons why not every athlete can just become a creator. And I think that's the, I think, understanding The, the role they play within the ecosystem, I think is important and it's not an insignificant role and it doesn't need to be, it doesn't, it's not just the, the kind of, crap that happens at the long, long, the, the, the end of the long tail it's, it's really thought through and really well strategized and, and really well analyzed. So, I think, I think that's a key part of it.

[00:28:16] Rich Johnson: Can I add to that? I think fundamentally, this is again, where you get this, like, real differentiation between. What the rights holder does and their role and, and, and, potentially athletes is it's particularly highlighted in sort of our AI world, but now for a lot of rights holders, output. Is the, is the objective in the game.

[00:28:46] You know, we, so again, AI tools, you know, and some great AI products, but allowing you to clip up all the highlights that you need without anyone sitting there money to do it, and you can put a caption on it, check it out, check it out, check it out. And it's, so it's like, you know, right. Tools are getting out three, 4, 000 pieces a week.

[00:29:04] It's like this huge volume play, but there's this I think it's going to become more of an issue, this void of again, the, longer tail, maybe again, storytelling or this real personality, like challenge based stuff that you see from creators or that like Bryson's doing and also stuff on YouTube, because also that's the stuff that is interesting for brand too. As much as they want the volume and impressions, they can also attach themselves to something much more meaningful when it's in that sort of package. 

[00:29:36] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Let's just develop it a stage further then. So if we move forward, so over the, Next period, if we take your point and say AI is becoming embedded on the production side, making everything easier, the cost will come down ultimately. And which means that your point, there is just going to be more stuff, so we're going to be bombarded with stuff.

[00:29:57] Some of it is going to be good and but there's going to be loads of it. And it's going to be quite indiscriminate because once people have got AI, they'll be excited by the, possibilities of, how it makes production so easy and it cuts stuff up and it just get it out there.

[00:30:13] What's the strategy then? So again, bringing it back to an athlete or just that's what you can see the market doing. It's going to be, we're going to be full of this shit. What can an individual Bryson type or people who want to look at Bryson and say, yeah, okay, I want, he's doing something good there. It's working. I'm going to copy him because this is what is what will happen. I'm wondering how that plays out. what the zag against the sort of AI zig, it's incredible, convoluted way of putting it.

[00:30:47] Carsten Thode: I look, I said, I think it comes down to, it comes down to great content, right? And it comes down to knowing your audience and it comes down to uh, you know, all the things that make great stories and, and being able to tell those stories in a compelling way and, and being able to, to put those stories. In front of people, right? So on the platforms that they're, that they're sort of consuming already. And I think, I don't think there'll be any magic in that. And I think there is going to be a role for automated highlights. Uh, and I think there is going to be a role for Perth, like, one of the things that is pretty cool about AI would be To create sort of more personalized highlight clips.

[00:31:20] So if you're, if the masters is trying to put together a a, uh, a highlight package for me, it sees that I follow Bryson DeChambeau knows that I really liked Bryson DeChambeau and so emphasizes him in his highlight package for me, that I think is a pretty cool application of AI. But I, I don't think AI is going to help.

[00:31:37] Uh, I don't think AI is going to take over Mr. Beast anytime soon, because he's, selling stories and he knows what his audience wants and he's enlisting the help of other collaborators and he's, creating tenant productions from scratch and, , those are things that that AI can't come up with or can't execute, can't bring 10 creators together and recreate, the squid games, , that's original content. And so there's always going to be that role.

[00:31:58] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: It's interesting that personalization question again, it's how. Difficult that is to get right. And what are the building blocks of that? I mean, obviously you've got Man United or FIFA, or, they are wrestling with this as we speak, trying to work out what, where they are on that and whether it's devolved out to, Amazon or whether they build it themselves and those bigger institutional questions when you then drill down, I think it's interesting with Bryson is that one, there's a team there, which we've said is doing good work, and I'm wondering about the, back to the cost of it. And the, it feels like, okay, you can do it on an iPhone, but strategists don't sound cheap and, all of that bit of it, which might be the differentiator between good stuff and not very good stuff is the brain behind it. How that market's going to evolve. I don't know. What do you, there's a, there's something there I mean, there's no shock to say the rich will get richer, but there's, he's a very rich golfer, Liv is hosing money at this. Question. He's doing a brilliant job for Liv. So I'm sure there's money being funneled into all of these. But again, if I'm an Olympic athlete or if I'm a cricketer or a rugby player, dunno, it feels like that's quite daunting.

[00:33:13] Carsten Thode: At the end of the day, every single creator starts with nothing, right? They start with no followers and they start with, an iPhone and, some ideas in their head, and so I think, I think, that's just where you have to start. You have to start, you have to put yourself out there.

[00:33:26] You have to make some content. You have to see what works and you have to do more of what works and less of what doesn't. And as you grow, you get a little bit more ambitious and you get more data. And then the sort of flywheel starts and you get a couple of brand deals and then. That allows you to hire, hire a strategist and, and you go from there.

[00:33:42] I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any magic, silver bullets, this thing. And, and I, for sure, someone like Bryson's got a massive inbuilt advantage cause he's on the tour. He, he can get access to anywhere. He can play with any golf creator he wants. He can get onto any course, so of course he's got a massive inbuilt relation or inbuilt advantage from that sense, but you know, I think. Any athlete who wants to go down this route has some amazing stories to tell and has amazing access and amazing platforms to create content. And that's just the way they need to think about it.

[00:34:13] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: I think as well if you're talking about what does this mean for like a typical. And I mean that in the most respectful sense, I, like, as you say, clearly golfers, uh, have a, uh, the top golfers have this incredible wealth. Yeah. So they, they can, fund this sort of stuff and yeah, that, that maybe other professionals don't quite have that privilege.

[00:34:31] And I think it might be about changing the optics on it. Cause if you think even about someone like Bryson, yes, can fund it. Great. He's been doing this for three years now. And this year's his best year by far. , I'm talking about his YouTube specifically again. But you know, he's got 700, 000 subs.

[00:34:49] He's done 60 million views this year. There is this like time in the game point that's pretty important across all of this when it comes to content and building a brand. So no matter how much money you've got, you've still got to have the right time in the game. So I would probably slightly reframe the optics for a typical athlete to go, what could this mean for my post career? Cause this is a 10 year plan and this is a 10 year investment, whether it's again, starting just with your learning how to do stuff or go getting in this game. Versus like. Oh, surely someone will be paying me next month cause I've just started to like create some content. I mean, again, many athletes will be in that position because of the platform that they have.

[00:35:31] But I think if you are treating this more as an opportunity to create content and yeah, again, maybe build new commercial streams or something like that, then I'd definitely have a change the optics on it, have a much longer term metric. I don't know, many athletes may want to go into punditry or that sort of stuff after.

[00:35:48] So

[00:35:49] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Yeah.

[00:35:50] Rich Johnson: they can do what you're doing Richard and have a, again, a classic thing now is start a podcast, right? You were ahead of everyone, but but you know, start a podcast, obviously kind of give yourself a platform that they're actually like, even if you're not like, The creme de la creme when you're actually competing, like you're pro you, you might be viewed as a, , a experienced again, media panelist in their own right.

[00:36:10] So, yeah, I think it's, definitely reframing.

[00:36:13] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: , just on a more sort of Practical basis. How are the platforms evolving? So again, one of the questions is quite often people say, Oh, well, just, put it on you, it's fresh in my mind because we had a conversation on the bundle, the recent episode we had about people don't talk about YouTube very much, but it's this monster in them in plain sight and. Because TikTok has caught people's attention and obviously, is a significant thing. You've got the others as well, Twitter and Instagram, and you can sort of see that strategies evolve. Platform specifically. Take us inside that. Cause he, again, Bryson is, seems to YouTube is, seems to be the central bit of this, but he does show up slightly differently on TikTok, am I imagining that, or there's, there's something happening there that's, that's interesting.

[00:36:59] Carsten Thode: at the end of the day each platform has its own has its own algorithm, has its own, audience. Demographics who, who sort of prefer those platforms. And I think, your people are absolutely missing a trick if they don't think about each platform in and of itself and create content, specifically for that, for that platform obviously YouTube is much easier to monetize from the creator's perspective, because there's a relatively transparent sort of formula that means that creators get paid.

[00:37:27] So that's One, one reason why, Mr. Beast and Bryson I guess emphasize that one, but of course, everything they do on TikTok and all the followers they gain on TikTok and Instagram and the other platforms, as you say, both drive traffic are complimentary as part of, his overall content ecosystem , and actually fulfill a different role.

[00:37:45] That's, some of it is, To extend beyond the reach of golf fans, and all that, all that kind of stuff. , 

[00:37:50] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Is there a way of just explaining quickly why that is the case? Why you can make more money on YouTube than you can on the others?

[00:37:57] Carsten Thode: So you YouTube have a, a program called AdSense, which is, a, very transparent mechanism whereby the creator gets, uh, I think 55% of the ad revenue that's sold against their, their videos, right? So if you put a video on there, YouTube sells. Those, those sort of pre rolls and, and mid roll kind of slots.

[00:38:18] And as the creator, you get 55 percent of that. So every, every month you get a, you get a check. That is 55 percent of the ad sales that have gone against your videos. The other platforms aren't as transparent. Right. They, they have creator funds that they sort of distribute amongst creators, but no one really knows how it works and what the formula is.

[00:38:37] And it's certainly not as much money as they're getting from YouTube. So that's the main, that's the main difference. From a monetization perspective, and of course you've got things like Patreon and, and, and others that have an even more directly, create a monetization program involved in that.

[00:38:52] So there, there are different ways of doing it, but certainly, . That influences creators thinking.

[00:38:57] Rich Johnson: you've, you've hit onto my, uh, one of my main passion points here, uh, Richard, because for me is still criminally misunderstood. When it comes to sports and sports rights holders and how it's operated I'm so bullish on the platform in terms of, again, it's influence that it will continue to have.

[00:39:15] And I think it's definitely one that I, I think will get a lot more focus from the sports industry. Over the next five years, this year, uh, YouTube is going to, and this is in the States, but YouTube is going to surpass Netflix for how much time it spent actually on your TV screen, which, if that's not like a signal on its, on its influence then, uh, then I don't know what is, and and yeah, fundamentally, like, whilst A lot in sports, we're treating it as obviously highlights and clips then you get some BTS and then sometimes it's like little kind of challenges and stuff.

[00:39:51] I think there's a lot more focus and attention that, that, that, that can and should go into it from from many in the sports industry.

[00:39:56] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: And what does it reward content wise, YouTube? What sorts of things does it want?

[00:40:02] Rich Johnson: It likes one of the big trends over the past few years has been, has been, uh, more length. Over 10 minutes, like you still get, and this again shows it, like, you still get a lot of and I must caveat as well, the reasons for this aren't on the, uh, content teams. It's, they're criminally under resourced as we all know.

[00:40:21] And so it's definitely like a senior leadership thing that they should be aware of and be, be paying attention to, but, uh, if, if you want to take it seriously. But what a lot of 

[00:40:30] rights 

[00:40:30] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: It's,

[00:40:30] seen as a nice to have rather than a fundamental.

[00:40:33] Rich Johnson: it's just a, we'll put it there. It's another channel that we have some followers on it.

[00:40:37] It just goes out on that again, not the same for everyone, but, but for, for many and, and and again, but obviously as with ever, it requires, it's required, it's why people are full time on YouTube and full time YouTube strategists because the nuances are so delicate. You should not be uploading like.

[00:40:54] like short goal clips and that sort of stuff, uh, highlight clips to YouTube, uh, under one minute, two minutes, but it still happens. Uploading a ton of content at once, it still happens. It rewards these days. It does really reward length. Again, Like I think people misinterpret the algorithm, but the algorithm, you, they even say this themselves.

[00:41:17] It's not my words, but I think it's really smart. It's like just swap out the word algorithm for audience, and that's what you're trying to cater to and deliver for. Retention on that length of video is then again, a huge indicator as per most most platforms. But then also the other nuance around YouTube is is click through rate, which is done on a.

[00:41:34] How'd your thumbnail and your title look? And, uh, how does that compare to what you're actually delivering and saying within your content and how do people resonate with that? It's such a, it's such a smart, but like sophisticated platform. And yeah, fundamentally as well, to Kasson's point, that's why you can, the creators can make more money on it is because, again, naturally, if you've got a longer video, then you're probably gonna have more ads, the CPMs really vary a lot, depending on your vertical.

[00:42:00] Sports isn't always the best, but like. That, that, that's some of the other key differentiators that so I think a lot of, I think, listen, again, it's why I think Bryson's really smart to get a run on it because there's only so there's reality and there's so much space in your feed.

[00:42:15] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: It's interesting, isn't it? Cause the sort of tone of the conversation is it's going back to pre Oh, you should be doing owned and operated. That's been the drive of the sports industry for a long time now is that don't give your content away to the platforms. They're monetizing it. You're not there.

[00:42:32] , you devolve your audience to them, do it under your own channels with your own, walled garden or whatever it is. And you go into that. Conversation. Whereas this feels like very 2015, this conversation.

[00:42:48] Carsten Thode: We're always ahead of the game, Richard.

[00:42:51] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: No, but it's interesting, isn't it? And I, I'd say this because I sense this isn't just about, obviously we're talking about athletes. Creators, but there is a sense of people weighing up the OTT question more broadly and actually, well, is it, do we need to do all of that

[00:43:07] Rich Johnson: How many more, how many more platforms do you want to use? Personally, like me, like not many more, like, I think that's a really, you just like pull it back. It's like, God, like how much, how many things do you have to like log into or remember to unsubscribe from or do all this stuff. So, I, I don't get me wrong.

[00:43:24] Like, I'm not like tossing that out the window, but I think there's, there's probably like, I think it's clearly like a own data play that. Is obviously correct. It doesn't mean that all your content has to sit behind a, uh, some sort of data wall. And I think ultimately, like when it comes to the, yeah, owned and operated, content and that sort of stuff.

[00:43:44] Probably really only a few who should be doing it. I think the majority probably shouldn't just cause again, you're, you're, you might find that you will just reach far less people. 

[00:43:53] Carsten Thode: it's shouldn't be an either or conversation, right? I think, for me, uh, These are, this is all about communities really, right? It's all about, how you can build and engage and monetize your community.

[00:44:06] And, and I don't think, it's like the only way to do it is to have your own or operated platform, or the only way to do it is to, is to do everything over YouTube or whatever. I think there's, I think the most sophisticated people view trying to maximize the number of touch points you have with your community members, try and give those community members. The maximum numbers and, the easiest way, I guess, to engage with you. And the more you give them what they want and the more they engage with you, the more people in your community, the more opportunities you have to monetize them. Do you 

[00:44:39] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: you're both sports strategists, you know, umbrella term and there is, the audience funnel is the sort of part of the architecture of this industry with the idea that you're going to, Social media and clips and Twitter. And it was always okay, build at the top and then the funnel narrows and you get action at the bottom.

[00:45:01] And now I'm trying to work out what action is now, what, what the bottom of the funnel, what performance is in this case. So for someone like Bryson DeChambeau, what is the bottom of the funnel? Is it just, okay, no, I'm monetizing YouTube. And I don't need to worry about that.

[00:45:16] I've just, I'm trying to bring people all the way through. is that what's happening?

[00:45:20] Carsten Thode: That's one, I mean, it's one of the things, I mean, as I said, like, if I, I'm sitting here as, as Avatar, if I had, if I had 10 million followers or, 20 million people in my community, I wouldn't struggle to think about, about ways to monetize them. Do you know what I mean? Like, like it's almost like, that's the easy bit. The hard bit is, is having a community of 10 million people. And I, I, I understand that I'm maybe oversimplifying

[00:45:45] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: a sponsorship and marketing play, monetization model until you get to a subscription at the bottom for something.

[00:45:52] Carsten Thode: Or, or like, yeah, so I would, I would be thinking about I would be thinking about how to monetize the content. So in pay per view stuff, I'd be thinking about different membership programs. I'd be thinking about different merchandise programs. I'd be thinking about different ticketing solutions. I'd be thinking about different sponsorship opportunities.

[00:46:07] I'd be thinking about like, there are, there are so many ways you can start thinking about monetizing a community that you have. Right? That actually the magic is building that community and building engagement within that community and building sort of, passion and momentum within that community.

[00:46:21] Rich Johnson: I think, I think also it's like, it doesn't always have to be just about monetizing your audience. It's like, an example, my, uh, old boss at social chain, Steve Bartlett. Obviously now like he's built through again, content and his own personal brand has built what I would describe as disproportional leverage across pretty much anything that now like comes his way, which obviously 

[00:46:48] for him is a lot of brand business. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, so Stevie's got Dar here podcast. Now he has effectively a dis disproportional leverage on, on what he can do. And yeah, he's made some products for his audience because he's got a very engaged audience, who, who are actually consumers, products, he is made obviously books and and that's even another thing, right?

[00:47:07] Books. He's just started a new book venture. Whether, I don't know if it'll work or not, or they've just started it, but so this may age like milk in time or, or, or it may look great, but again, the leverage that he can get by having his own book publication is cutting out the, probably a lot of the archaic fees and, sort of, All returns that you get from, from making a book.

[00:47:30] It's the same case now where he's able to churn out podcasts or now get equity in different businesses because he can then promote them on his podcast. It's not, I don't think it always has to be about like, how can you just monetize your fans? But if you think like, well, what's the goal generally?

[00:47:43] The goal could be for him to just feel good about making free content. That's cool. Cause he doesn't necessarily need the money or it could be, yeah, this could be a great commercial stream, revenue stream, so that doesn't have to be monetized in your community. It could be creating these avenues of disproportional leverage that you can then use to get more money if that's exactly what you want.

[00:48:02] So I think there's just different ways to think about it.

[00:48:04] Carsten Thode: I'm nodding furiously because I agree exactly. I think if you build a community and you build, passionate community, then that's what you need to start thinking about. Or then, then the rest of it, the opportunities open up to you in all kinds of different dimensions.

[00:48:19] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Okay. Well, listen, thanks a lot for your time. Really enjoyed that.