UP408 What Just Happened? How the opening up of the US betting market explains the NBA's $75billion rights bonanza

Why has the value of the NBA's media rights tripled, from $25billion to $75billion this week?
"Purely because of gambling,' says Sam Sadi, CEO of LiveScore Group, the media and gambling platform, referencing the opening up of the US gambling marketplace. 'Nothing else that would drive that. Everything was trending downwards until five years ago, and nothing changed in the environment. It can be easily isolated and all of a sudden you see these increases that are much higher than what were projected five years  And the NBA timed it perfectly."

We recorded this conversation yesterday at LiveScore's Soho headquarters in London with fellow guest James Liddy, an investment banker with a hugely impressive track record as a deal maker in the gaming leisure and hotel sector, first with Deutsche Bank in London, and now at Jefferies's where he leads on that sector across Europe, the Middle East and Africa. 
This is a conversation that changed my view on what's happening in the macro environment for sport. Hopefully you'll find it as enlightening as I did.  

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Transcript

Unofficial Partner - NBA rights hike ‘purely because of gambling’

[00:00:00] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: We talk about media rights plateauing, although if you look at the NBA in the States, that's certainly not the case.

[00:00:05] They've gone from 25 to 75 billion, 

[00:00:07] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Purely because of gambling, I would speculate

[00:00:11] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: purely because of gambling.

[00:00:12] Sam Sadi LiveScore: nothing else that would drive that Everything was trending downwards until five years 

[00:00:19] And nothing changed in the environment.

[00:00:21] In fact, negative

[00:00:23] forces continued to know, court cutting subscription Then gambling came and first in the More engagement, more engagement in secondary, 

[00:00:37] you can't

[00:00:38] come up with any other theories. It can be easily isolated and all of a sudden you see these increases that are much higher than what were projected five years And the NBA timed it perfectly

Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner

[00:00:50] That is Sam Sady CEO of live score on the story of the week, which is the massive NBA media rights deal in the U S. We recorded this conversation yesterday at live scores, Soho headquarters in London with fellow guests. James Liddy, an investment banker with a hugely impressive track record as a deal maker in the gaming leisure and hotel sector. 

[00:01:11] First with Dorsha bank in London, and now at Jeffery's where he leads on that sector across Europe, the middle east and Africa. This is a conversation that changed my view on what's happening in the macro environment for sport. Hopefully you'll find it as enlightening as I did. 

[00:01:25] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport. 

[00:01:28] And you can join our community of tens of thousands of people. By signing up to our weekly newsletter on sub stack, which goes out every Thursday. 

[00:01:37] Or find us in the usual places, LinkedIn, Twitter, Tik, TOK, and Instagram on Unofficial Partner. 

[00:01:48] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: this is a bit which collides with two themes that we talk about a lot, which is media and money. So we've got a series called Other People's Money, which is all about the investment question into sport. And then we've got a series called The Bundle, where we talk about media rights, traditional media rights, but also streaming, and so both of those are very sort of, look, look what's happening over there.

[00:02:11] Why are they doing that?

[00:02:13] This bit, I think, is a part of the conversation, which I've been wanting to have this conversation for ages, since we, in fact, did our Convergence event at the Olympic Park. And you were both incredibly insightful on that. And so this is a sort of slight follow up to that.

[00:02:28] But it's a, it's broadening you out. So there's a question of what's happening that's interesting to you, that's out there.

[00:02:38] And ultimately, I want to get to

[00:02:44] what does the money want?

[00:02:46] Why are

[00:02:48] people investing? Who's investing? Why are they doing it? And what do they see? In sport and in the sports market

[00:02:57] and then there's a sort of

[00:02:59] additional area which again where is is

[00:03:03] Where does?

[00:03:06] Gambling money if that's the right definition of it

[00:03:09] fit into the models of

[00:03:11] of sport and the revenue that's going to come into sport. If I'm buying a football club today, if I'm buying a league,

[00:03:21] where does this conversation fit in? Because a lot of the noise that's going on around and we talk about media rights plateauing, although if you look at the NBA in the States, that's certainly not the case.

[00:03:32] They've gone from 25 to 75 billion, seemingly. Purely because of gambling, I would 

[00:03:39] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: purely because of gambling.

[00:03:40] Sam Sadi LiveScore: nothing else that would drive that Everything was trending downwards until five years 

[00:03:47] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Okay, let's get into that. So okay, let's start For many years. And nothing changed in the environment.

[00:03:54] Sam Sadi LiveScore: In fact, negative

[00:03:56] forces continued to know, court cutting subscription Then gambling came and first in the More engagement, more engagement in secondary, 

[00:04:10] And, and, you can't

[00:04:14] come up with any other theories. and, and also the logic of it is very clear. a lot of fans have been in addition to across the world probably, but we haven't really noticed it because there are too many changing, factors.

[00:04:33] But in this case, it can be easily isolated and all of a sudden you see these increases that are much higher than what were projected five years And the NBA timed it perfectly. and the NBA is maybe one of, like, it may even be higher in terms of total betting volume than, than NFL, because it's 82 games per team, like, it's daily for a long period of time.

[00:04:59] So

[00:05:00] I'm just, again, it's speculative, but I, I would, be very confident to just say that is the primary factor why the rights have 

[00:05:09] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: It's just too much of a coincidence.

[00:05:12] There's just nothing you can't I mean, 

[00:05:13] Sam Sadi LiveScore: hear alternative theories. Like, what else could have caused it? Viewership numbers are high. Why?

[00:05:19] How did the decline stop? Is the product so much better? You'd argue, not even close. Is there more content? so, what has changed? And how is it across every sport? Like, all of a sudden, American professional sports and college sports are getting more who are paying more, spending more on everything.

[00:05:43] You can see it. 

[00:05:44] James Liddy, Jeffries: are getting more viewers, paying more, spending more. not just flick on and off now and then. So the advertising revenue you can generate is much, much higher because the engagement is just so much better.

[00:06:06] Yeah, 

[00:06:07] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Yeah, you could, you could have a team up by 20 points with a minute to go. But, there'd be a thousand people waiting on a player to have an assist to win their bet.

[00:06:16] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: That bit about the engagement, let's just pause on that for a minute, because that's, we'll take it to the sort of micro level. What do we know about how the behavior of an NBA fan, for example, changes.

[00:06:29] Or has changed in the last five years. Other than they're watching longer.

[00:06:34] I want to get to the monetization model of the NBA. The NBA is obviously monetize it very well.

[00:06:40] Then we go back to the, into the food chain. Amazon is a name that jumps out here. There's obviously a big ongoing row, and there's, there may be a court case, there might not, Warner Brothers might sue, whoever, but it's far too early to speculate about that sort of stuff.

[00:06:53] take me into their thinking, a layer. What is it that they're seeing? What do they want?

[00:06:58] Amazon.

[00:06:59] Does this tell us anything about Amazon and its relationship to, to the betting market? 

[00:07:03] James Liddy, Jeffries: I think Amazon and a number of others, are on a journey here to hyper personalize the content that they're providing and Betting allows, creates a segment of consumer that is more sophisticated typically in the viewing of the sport and they want a data rich environment of which they can place more bets on because it makes it more fun.

[00:07:26] So, listening to Martin Brundle commentate on the Formula 1 and explain to you every 20 minutes why they changed tires is not engaging for a Formula 1 fan. That's fine for a newbie, but what they want is More personalized content, and I think that's where Amazon is really going to take the whole journey.

[00:07:45] And I think there's there's a number of other providers in the space that will do the same. But for Sportsbetter, that's even more critical. Because they want to see on the screen live how many assists so and so players had, how many shots they've had on goal, etc. And, and therefore they can inform their decisions on where they're going to place bets next.

[00:08:02] And I think that personalization journey is is going to massively increase engagement as well and keep viewers on those platforms for longer. And then Amazon can obviously then sell all their other products through those engaged viewers as well. So having that ecosystem for Amazon is uniquely powerful, I think.

[00:08:18] And I think same for Apple and same for a couple of others that have this enormous power in the market now to keep people engaged for longer.

[00:08:26] Sam Sadi LiveScore: A degree and I think we've seen that execution on their NFL coverage. They've, they've maybe revolutionized this a little bit too much, but they've added elements to the game. That caters straightly to that to that segment. Real time analytics, predictive,, a I, , calling the game to the place before they even they even happen.

[00:08:46] This is the same type of customer who's, usually the same profile of customer that is betting in the game. But in general, I think they must be looking at statistics and and all the viewership data and just assigning a much higher value than they would have had a few years from now. And then, sure, the usual benefits of bringing that audience into their, into their ecosystem.

[00:09:11] So there's no direct, probably, link with betting and gambling, but it has just appreciated the value of, of, of those rights, which then, will benefit, will benefit Amazon indirectly. 

[00:09:24] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: how does it work? Will Amazon have a betting

[00:09:27] platform within itself, or is it just something, is it just about personalization, in which case other organizations will then

[00:09:34] use that, or will pay to use that data that Amazon is going to generate? 

[00:09:39] is it a sort of, are they going to build their own, or are they going to just be a sort of hub, and I can see retail, and I can see all sorts of other reasons for.

[00:09:49] People to get excited about Amazon being in sport, but

[00:09:52] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I can't see them in any time soon getting into betting. I think at most they will partner with betting companies and try to leverage the knowledge that they're acquiring on customers to deliver them more value. But I think it will be limited to a commercial relationship. Not much more. I think.

[00:10:11] Amazon has different intentions to use that data for their own. It's just another layer of data on customers that they probably have on their platforms already. I don't know, James, if you agree.

[00:10:22] James Liddy, Jeffries: I'd be surprised if they haven't looked at it. I mean, obviously Amazon is incredibly sophisticated and a huge organization, but I agree with Sam. I don't think, especially if you look at how ESPN bet has performed so far, it, it, it's been tough. It's not been an easy journey for them. And so I think staying in Switzerland, it, In a betting context, it's probably more, more financially beneficial to them over the, over the medium to long term than creating their own sports book and going through all the regulatory process that that involves and the responsible gambling issues that will undoubtedly come to the fore in the US over time than those sort of headaches that, that they'd really want to, to get involved in gambling directly.

[00:11:04] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: And that's why ESPN BET, and the last time we spoke together, it was just on the cusp of that Barstool, Penn, ESPN sort of story, and now we're probably almost a year on from that, and you predicted that it wasn't going to go well, it hasn't gone as well as they had hoped, just bring us up to speed in terms of where that is and why that is. I, I think it has been difficult for them. I think Penn share price itself has traded very badly afterwards, unfortunately. I think there's an increasing chorus of commentators on the sidelines saying that they're making the same mistakes that they made when they're in basketball sports which most of those seem to be centered around not having one unified strategy from the gambling side and the media side working together to create a product, which is what Skybet was, which took, as we discussed last time, took a long time to perfect, but when they perfected it, it was very powerful.

[00:11:59] And I think as we talked about here, LiveScore really is the only other one doing that. In a truly unified way. ESPN, BET and PEN haven't done that. And I think that's causing a lot of issues. They've let go a lot of people recently, which is never a good sign in terms of a company that's succeeding. And I think it's been a real challenge for them.

[00:12:19] And the land based side, which is continuing to be quite successful from a casino context I think is undervalued now and people are sort of afraid of the obligations and the money that's being spent on ESPN, BET. And they're just not making the market share gains that they need to, to keep the deal alive, really.

[00:12:37] I think there's a, there is an out clause after three years, predicated upon achieving certain milestones related to market share. And I think it's going to be very hard for them to make those milestones. I'm not sure what you think, 

[00:12:51] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I

[00:12:51] fully agree, and, and I think,

[00:12:54] The surprising mistake was to ever believe that it was going to work without having really a different plan to Barstool. I think the whole market, all, every analyst pretty much was aligned in terms of why, Barstool or even the scoreboard in the U. S. did not really work.

[00:13:16] And I thought even Penn Management understood that well, And I said this, previously, there's tremendous potential of that partnership, if done well, but they need to be realistic. They need to understand that platforms like DraftKings, FanDuel or, or, or the Flutter, global sportsbook platform, these have been developed over decades by, some of the best teams the industry has ever had.

[00:13:45] So, You need to compare that to what you have and ask yourself, is it credible for a new company with maybe a tenth of the resources, technology resources, to be able to develop a product that's on par or even in some cases better than the market leaders.

[00:14:05] And,

[00:14:06] I suspect internally the senior management of Penn we're told it is.

[00:14:12] That, they would be able to catch up, and therefore ESPN would be a, best in class sportsbook and therefore, with the brand recognition and the top of the funnel that ESPN provides, this will create momentum, and then over time, in fact, become a significant player in the industry.

[00:14:31] But from the outside, that always looked very challenging, because we know how challenging and expensive. and time consuming it is to build a market leading product. Because also, let's not forget, FanDuel and DraftKings are not just waiting around and, not innovating. Like, you see constant innovation coming from these companies to a point where I think they may be now considered world leading in terms of the technology they're developing in online sports betting.

[00:15:00] So, you not only need to catch up, but you need to keep up. And I think they counted too much on the, on the brands and the top of the funnel and not understood that the integrations would not be in place, that ESPN's tech teams would not really be motivated to deliver that kind of traffic to convert.

[00:15:21] So,

[00:15:22] James Liddy, Jeffries: I think it's a great case study is the brand is not enough. You need more than a brand in this day and age. You need the

[00:15:28] product. 

[00:15:28] Sam Sadi LiveScore: not like 20 years ago where a brand with a mediocre product and a great marketing campaign could make a company successful. It used

[00:15:36] James Liddy, Jeffries: is too sophisticated these days. Whether it's betting or elsewhere in the media context, you need a better product, a good product, a world class product because there's just too much competition out there and people won't, won't tolerate media, less than world class product these days.

[00:15:54] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: And how tied in, so there's a, it's interesting, I was going to ask you about that, it does feel like a brand versus product

[00:16:00] question in there, and Again, spooling back, it was, oh Barstool isn't the right brand, a different audience.

[00:16:09] ESPN, biggest sports media brand in the world. If it's not going to work there,

[00:16:15] where else could it work in terms of that brand?

[00:16:17] Question, in terms of the

[00:16:19] leveraging a sports brand into betting, going back that way.

[00:16:24] this

[00:16:25] is this a case study that says actually that's

[00:16:28] Not possible, is the, the, just the technology, or is it about the sort of stickability, if that's the right word, or the wallets that, we, the DraftKings and FanDuel have cultivated over time, they've got an, they've got, their consumers are very

[00:16:43] close to them, because, why?

[00:16:45] Why is, what is it, what's the protection, what's the moat that those two have got, other than time?

[00:16:51] Sam Sadi LiveScore: It's

[00:16:52] the entire customer experience but Maybe to contradict you a little bit, the brand is fantastic. But there's a certain promise that kind of ESPN, no, ESPN. And, and, 

[00:17:04] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Well, I think that's what we all agreed on. 

[00:17:05] It's that is in. It's 

[00:17:06] Sam Sadi LiveScore: but we've agreed also that it's not sufficient, but if you deliver a product that, fits that brand promise and what is that, like if you're an ESPN fan or a consumer or user, you want a world class product.

[00:17:20] When, when ESPN is covering, certain sports events, you want, you, you're expecting the best coverage, the best commentators, the best camera angles and everything best in class, right? Like they're, worldwide leader in sports. I don't know if they still use that slogan.

[00:17:34] So the expectation is, well, ESPN bet should be at that level. And at the moment, FanDuel and DraftKings set that bar.

[00:17:44] So if you were to deliver that.

[00:17:47] You would be a formidable competitor in that space. There's no doubt in my mind. And then, you start applying the technology that's needed to integrate so that, you can get more out of your marketing investment that you're doing from ESPN BET to ESPN. And that's possible over time. It doesn't have to be, at the maximum efficiency level from day one. But the first necessary component is for ESPN BET. to be a really good sports book. And that takes a really long time to get there. And as long as you're not there, the model is always going to fail.

[00:18:25] James Liddy, Jeffries: I think Sam's right. If you look at it, I don't think it's a question of is it the brand's problem. I think it's the combination of the brand and product just isn't the right combination.

[00:18:33] And, and that is, that has been the, the, the fundamental issue. I think there was plenty of engagement, obviously, with, with the brand and with the concept when it launched. There was plenty of fanfare, everyone knew that it was coming, but obviously those downloads haven't resulted in sticky customers.

[00:18:48] People have gone back to, everyone's happy to try it, but then they've gone back to the tried and tested DraftKings or FanDuel or, MGM. Who, who really are rapidly consolidating the market into a three or four player market now. And, and a lot of the, the second tier operators or the smaller operators are leaving the market.

[00:19:07] I

[00:19:07] Sam Sadi LiveScore: You could argue the brand has done the job already and, and, it created that kind of curiosity. At some point we were seeing six, 7 percent market share. But you know, at some point Caesars had 18 percent market share in New York. But that was just as a result of promotional spend. So, promotional spend, the strength of the brand gets the customer through.

[00:19:29] Customer uses the promotional money, tests the product, doesn't like it, and then goes back to their preferred sports book. And that's the, the growth equation that fails. The retention number there is a catastrophic level failure probably. To see that level, go from 8 9 percent to 1 2 percent now.

[00:19:51] James Liddy, Jeffries: Yeah. Well, I think the, I saw some data the other day that I think I sent over to Sam, that that said that the handle that they have in June versus when, versus June last year when they still have basketball, sports, is actually smaller than what they had with basketball sports.

[00:20:04] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: on the, that's extraordinary. So

[00:20:06] James Liddy, Jeffries: so the, the amount of bets being placed on their system and on their, on their app, but, and that's extraordinary considering you have, as you say, the most powerful brand in sport.

[00:20:15] And people just, it just isn't leading to people converting. And I think the only conclusion you can really draw is that's got to be product related.

[00:20:22] It's not brand related. 

[00:20:24] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: to the, the, the

[00:20:25] Again, we're using NBA because it's current and it's in front of our mind, but using that as a sort of lens into the American marketplace, sports marketplace.

[00:20:33] The 25 billion to 75 billion predicated on. Look, it's opening up. There's a marketplace here that wasn't here before.

[00:20:42] All of the arguments that we're, that we're putting forward.

[00:20:45] How does DraftKings and the Duopoly, as I, refer to them. Well, there's three now How does that play with Basketball?

[00:20:52] How are they getting their rights feedback if they're starting to pay that? And they're looking at that market for betting.

[00:20:57] Do you see what I'm getting at?

[00:20:58] the television companies

[00:21:00] are paying that number because of the market that we've said there's an excitement around betting.

[00:21:06] How do they make that money back just on a simple level?

[00:21:08] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I think all the revenue streams are amplified. Obviously, if the viewership numbers are up, their advertising revenues will be up. That is, I believe, still their primary 

[00:21:21] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: So just, I am being thick, but are those, so DraftKings and Fandu will be massive advertisers over the next 10 years. That's part of the equation.

[00:21:30] Sam Sadi LiveScore: course.

[00:21:31] but, but not only because you have increase in viewership, you're going to have other advertisers paying more.

[00:21:37] James Liddy, Jeffries: I think it's all advertisers,

[00:21:39] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Like if you look at Super Bowl ads the numbers that they've been able to get to and the ratings, but it's just, there's so much more and there's demand also being created by DraftKings the likes that also inflates those revenues of other, other sectors.

[00:21:54] So it's, it's not maybe a perfect storm, but it's multiple ways that the ecosystem is benefiting from this inflow of.

[00:22:03] For those eyeballs. There are other parts of the ecosystem that are going to benefit. Team sponsors, sponsorship revenues are increasing because again, there's a lot more engagement, a lot more interest.

[00:22:14] It's, it's created, A wave of new fans that just did not exist before, and then it has increased the engagement level of existing fans, too. I have friends in New York that, would not be able to name a New York Knicks player before. And now they can tell you how many assists they average.

[00:22:34] And, because, they love this, adrenaline element of it. They liked sport, but, they watched, two, three games a year.

[00:22:42] Now, they subscribe to every, sports subscription, Fubo's and YouTube premium or Sunday tickets. And they're like staying up and like watching three or four games a night.

[00:22:54] James Liddy, Jeffries: the key is, it has to be Live

[00:22:57] Live has become such a valuable concept that, you don't want to catch up on stream later on.

[00:23:03] It's no good to you. So, the Netflix of the world, and Amazon Prime, with movie streaming, et cetera, I think the value of that has begun to wane. And there's been a broad based recognition that live is the only thing that are really guaranteed to capture eyeballs. And guarantee people will subscribe to your platform.

[00:23:21] And guarantee that people will watch with their friends because they're up all night, and betting has helped

[00:23:29] accelerate that journey. And highlight the fact that live is really the most valuable area in sports media, in media in general today.

[00:23:38] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I think that's a really, really important point because before betting, if we're still talking about the U. S., the consumption behaviors were shifting to social highlights player based highlights, nobody really cared who won as long as, there was some. 10 second clip on on Instagram.

[00:23:58] House of Highlights for NBA became one of the most popular handles, and this reverses that trend because, if you have a stake in the in the game, you're not going to want to watch the highlights or the recap the next morning. That's still important, but that has just become a top of the funnel.

[00:24:15] But, there's millions of new fans or existing fans that became betters that. Now have to watch the game in in real time. There's no point, recording it or watching the highlights if you want to really enjoy your bed or you want to know what the outcome is. So, so you're right like that has changed that, or altered a little bit the consumption behavior.

[00:24:36] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: What do you think the lessons are going to be? If I'm sitting at another league somewhere else,

[00:24:41] I'm looking at this and thinking,

[00:24:43] I need very quickly to learn, learn something from this. What do you think that implications of this are going to be? So just again, we can keep it at the NBA, deal, or we can just, go broader.

[00:24:57] But what is actually happening? I'm wondering about,

[00:25:01] it could even be organization of inventory. How do you get into, how do you move your sport into this marketplace? If that's what your aim is. 

[00:25:13] James Liddy, Jeffries: , intuitively, your content is high value content, is going to become increasingly important.

[00:25:22] So putting your sport up against the NBA, up against the NFL, at the same time, is going to diminish its value. And I think you'll find some sports and newer sports who want to, who want to increase the viewership and increase the value of the content they're developing, will start to change schedules to fit into the white space that isn't occupied by other live sports.

[00:25:43] And I think Personally, I think there's a huge opportunity for women's sport to fit into some of those gaps, in the white space because people love, I mean, they're very entertaining sports to watch, but if it's overlapping, with the Premier League, if the women's football is overlapping with the men's football, chances are that the rights for men's football will always be much more valuable, but if they were to move the women's content to a different time of day, to a different day, maybe earlier in the week when there's not much content to fill the white space, that all of a sudden becomes very valuable, and a betting product, and a, and a viewer product that people would, would engage with.

[00:26:17] So I think a lot of sports that don't have the power of the NBA and the NFL I think will start to think about how can they ensure that their content is being watched live and therefore is more valuable.

[00:26:31] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I agree with that. And that's the reason why tennis is such a popular vetting sport because purely because of scheduling. People would see, tennis betting during the week spike up and then will then wonder like how come nobody's betting on the weekend? Yeah, because there's football. So, if football, like top quality football, was being played on a Monday morning, No one's going to be watching ITF tennis but because there's a gap in the schedule and people need, sports entertainment and something to bet on, they'll take, whatever live content that is available that has sorted out all its integrity issues and, that is a solid, reliable product to watch and, and, and bet.

[00:27:15] And, and you're right, like, secondary sports or leagues that do not have the audience. Currently with the, with the premium products need to see, what gaps there are in the schedules and, even just to get audiences that it doesn't have to be for betting, but for betting even more so, because that demand is constant.

[00:27:36] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: We're seeing, I mean, it's interesting in golf. I've just come from last week, the open at Troon, and that's the last major of the year. We're, we're finished now. early July and because of the NFL, but I think because of this question. So the PGA championship always used to be, the last shot of glory as they marketed themselves, but it was in the NFL season.

[00:27:55] And now, as TV rights, plus the Olympics came in and muddied the waters in terms of needing a slot as well. But it was mainly about avoiding the NFL. So you can start to see

[00:28:06] You know, real examples of what you're talking about in terms of creating inventory that's not there. The women's one, I think, again, is really interesting, I think, because it's at a stage in development where a lot of people are projecting onto it lots of money at a team level.

[00:28:21] There's a lot of multi club ownership. I say a lot. There's several

[00:28:25] investment groups who are going around saying, OK, let's buy the women's side of Chelsea. Let's buy the women's side of Como. and build a business from there. Ultimately you get to this, I think, you get to this conversation, and it's not a conversation you have about women's football very often, if at all, in terms of betting.

[00:28:48] Sam Sadi LiveScore: don't think

[00:28:50] governing bodies and various entities in the football ecosystem, even at the top level,

[00:28:57] take into account the betting demand properly. When you consider

[00:29:04] UEFA Champions League scheduling,

[00:29:07] as a punter, I find it one of the most frustrating things. 

[00:29:11] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Oh, I need a, you need a spreadsheet, 

[00:29:13] to follow Spurs. I mean, I know that they're in the Champions League very often. 

[00:29:18] Sam Sadi LiveScore: just that, but like, you'll have, top matchups being played at the same time.

[00:29:23] Yes, sure. For arcane, models that have been built by broadcasters to think that, that's the best level of audience they can get locally and contracts that have been built around those assumptions. And, when you look at American sports,

[00:29:39] there was a time when NFL kickoffs were at 1 p.

[00:29:44] m. and 4 p. m. Why do you think the NFL's shifted some of those to 4. 15? Some of them, and some of them to 4. 30, because they want the first games to finish, but they also don't want all the games to start and finish at the same time. So a 15 minute tweak creates so much extra audience, because theoretically you could have the last 15 minutes of both games, let's say there are 2 games or 4 games, that you could watch.

[00:30:14] Without having to, switch channels all the time. So, when you look at UEFA Champions League, you'll have, in the beginning, eight matches at the same time. Take four matches and move them, back by 15 minutes. Especially in the elimination rounds. There's extra time, penalties, give that fan a chance.

[00:30:33] And that obviously translates then into different revenue streams, including betting. Because you'll finish one game, you'll go to the other one, okay, it's extra time.

[00:30:43] Let's, put a small punt into it and enjoy.

[00:30:48] I've never

[00:30:48] heard of this discussion at, at, the governing bodies or, and I'm always surprised

[00:30:53] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Well, you maybe, you maybe think of buzzer actually, in terms of innovate, one of the most interesting

[00:30:58] products that's come out.

[00:31:00] I'm saying that I never actually, it was, I never used it, but

[00:31:05] it felt like an interesting idea, , an app, a platform which allowed you to buy micropayments of bits of games. So, and a lot of it was the last

[00:31:18] bit, the last quarter of the, of a match.

[00:31:21] And then it failed, ultimately, because, and now, whether it failed because the product, I'm not qualified to say, well, the qualif you know, the product was any good.

[00:31:28] I really liked the idea of it,

[00:31:30] And it was of the moment, for a couple of years, because it's just so fresh, it was a piece of innovation that people got hold of, that took people's imagination. And then, it then became a sort of betting, quasi betting platform, but failed, ultimately it went bust.

[00:31:45] But there is a, I think someone will have another go at it, but it will come down to your point about the sort of rigidity or the flexibility of what the rights holder wants to do.

[00:32:02] Sam Sadi LiveScore: They just get renewed, which is another broadcaster, and some, some new numbers.

[00:32:07] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: And those numbers are now becoming harder to come by across Europe, all the European leagues are now, they're finding that that, the traditional rights market

[00:32:17] auction is not the same as it was, and we've seen in France significant changes and reductions in what they're getting, so that, the 

[00:32:26] Sam Sadi LiveScore: they were expecting, I 

[00:32:27] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: yeah, well, and, and again you could talk about.

[00:32:31] If they look at what's happening in the States, what would their reading be at, Ligoon, or what would, what's the Premier League going to, how's that going to engage with this question? And I think always with this question, there's always the sort of legislation, there's the,

[00:32:45] comms end of it, but, I'm, I'm sort of interested in what the money wants, which, James, I'm looking at CVC and thinking,

[00:32:54] okay, they're making, bets across all sorts of sports.

[00:32:58] And why? And I know that Formula One is a sort of become is a case study, but it doesn't feel like it's got a direct application. Just take me inside that private equity mindset when they look at

[00:33:10] sport and the sports area, but also into the inter gaming. What is it that they're seeing? And what do you, what's the conversation at that side of the 

[00:33:17] James Liddy, Jeffries: Private equity in gaming is actually relatively rare, there's very few global private equity firms that participate directly in owning and running gambling companies, mainly for the regulatory aspects, obviously getting regulated in the U. S. requires effectively the runners of the, those that run and manage the firm, to be.

[00:33:40] Regulated themselves and to be audited themselves and have to apply and that's quite an invasive process And so a lot of private equity firms don't want to go through that process Understandably, so there's there's effectively three or four big global brand name private equity firms that participate in gambling So one in Blackstone Apollo CBC are the sort of big three In terms of their interest in sport, I think it comes back to the having a rare commodity that you can monetize.

[00:34:10] And it comes back to sport being the live concept that people want to watch. And I think if you can, and this is another area, Nexus, that gambling is driving innovation here because this changing viewer patterns and the changing ways that people engage with sport, a lot of it's driven by data. People wanting to be more informed by what's going on.

[00:34:32] People wanting to follow the players more. And, and I think that the way that CBC and others view it is that they're buying commodities that have very high competitive modes and very defensible competitive modes. And, and if they can innovate and, and monetize the content that they're buying in a, in a more effective manner, they can drive tremendous value for themselves and their LPs in their funds.

[00:34:57] And I think that's proven to be true in the past. Formula One was a wildly successful investment for CVC, I mean, I think one of their record investments of all time. But I think that came from taking a product that had a very loyal following, that had, that produced a valuable commodity that wasn't able to be replicated anywhere else, frankly.

[00:35:16] And then improving, improving the engagement, improving the vision, growing the pie, so to speak. And Liberty's taken that to the next level, I think, with Formula One. And it's been very successful there as well. So I think that path

[00:35:32] has caught the attention of a lot of other investors in the space, whether they be very high net worth individuals, or private equity funds, or corporations, who want to participate now in the consolidation of that.

[00:35:44] Because I think there is a broad based recognition that in terms of consumer content, live sport is the most attractive, most defensible, most unique and rare commodity you can buy. And that's what's driving a lot of the consolidation on the M& A activity that's going on. I think on the flip side, a lot of the leagues are saying, well, hold on a second, we've been quite financially constrained for a long time.

[00:36:08] We can sell a percentage stake in our league, bring in a financial investor, so that will bring a lot more money to our sport, but also a lot more know how, and a lot more, innovative thinking as to how best to engage with our consumer, with our customer base. And I think that's why that's been quite attractive for a lot of the leagues out there, rugby union globally, football globally, obviously the NFL and the NBA, and a lot of the sort of long tried and tested history with, with partnering with corporations and, and financial investors.

[00:36:40] But, but I think that trend will continue. And, and I think people are now looking at, Second and third tier sports and how to accelerate their growth in eSports and all the rest of it as to what they can do to to get in early, so to speak, before prices get up too high.

[00:36:57] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: It's interesting, what sort of money then? I can see the problem for private equity there, that you mentioned there at the beginning about the, just,

[00:37:04] What do you call it, the hassle? Is it a coincidence that the biggest ones are the ones that

[00:37:09] have grown sort of units within them that they can spend time doing it?

[00:37:15] James Liddy, Jeffries: There are smaller funds that participate in gambling for sure. Bruin Sports Capital in the U.

[00:37:19] S. acquired OddsChecker from Flutter that I sold a couple of years ago which really was all around engagement at the top of the funnel in gambling. So not really running betting operators themselves, but participating in the supply chain, so to speak, on the B2B supply chain in betting. So there's definitely a recognition that the betting ecosystem is very attractive.

[00:37:41] And being involved in the B2B side of things is often potentially easier from,

[00:37:48] from a reputational risk perspective and not being necessarily directly linked for the, the implications of gambling. For private equity investors and the like. So that, that continues to be quite a popular

[00:38:00] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: they can frame themselves as a sort of tech

[00:38:02] James Liddy, Jeffries: Yeah, the tech investors, exactly.

[00:38:04] I mean, look at sport radar and genius sports. They've obviously got a lot of private equity owners that have participated in their, in their evolution over time. But the, the main monetization route for both for the data that genius and sport radar have is, is gambling companies. But I think more people are more comfortable investing in the supply chain than they are necessarily investing in operators themselves and the regulatory overlay.

[00:38:29] It is related to that as well.

[00:38:31] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I just challenge something that you said earlier? In terms of these professional investors coming in and investing in leagues or buying league rights or the rights to the leagues, right? And, and also football clubs.

[00:38:47] Could there be a scenario where they have overestimated the growth in in rides fees that had been trending positively for for so many years to continue.

[00:39:01] I agree with you when it comes to managing clubs and leagues better, modernizing their commercial activities, Innovation, less so. I'm not sure if,

[00:39:17] like, an EPL

[00:39:19] or a French league has room to innovate much, as much as a, CBC or Liberty have been able to do with F1. They can change rules every week and they can add races and add, new courses, change the commercial rules overnight as much as they please as a private company like they do, with private professional leagues in the U.

[00:39:41] S. So really like How much innovation are these leagues allowing their, new financial partners? And if we see this very visible trend now that, rights fees are in decline are the, are their calculations going to fail now? Even though they may modernize, merchandise sales, for a club, or, improve some of the infrastructure.

[00:40:05] But the primary, the bulk of the revenues were media rights. And if that part of the equation is starting to fail, have they maybe miscalculated these investments?

[00:40:17] James Liddy, Jeffries: is definitely no guarantee of financial success. Just because, I think I was talking at the interest level. Whether or not they make any money doing it, I think is a different question 

[00:40:28] Sam Sadi LiveScore: You're just explaining why 

[00:40:29] James Liddy, Jeffries: yeah, and it's still, it's still to be 

[00:40:31] Sam Sadi LiveScore: You're not saying you agree 

[00:40:32] James Liddy, Jeffries: I think there, there is a number of investors that have lost the keys to their investments in sport as a result of variety of factors, but obviously one being the model that they underwrote to buy the club or to invest in the league didn't materialize. And I think there's, there's a long list of investors in the space, what was traditionally ultra high net worth individuals who wanted to have a go at it.

[00:40:56] And I think that, that, there's still an element of that, but a lot of them have ended up losing the keys to their castles as a result because they, they underwrote business plans that were proved out to be under. unachievable. They've overspent on players, they've overspent on, on the experience and, and the financial discipline wasn't, maybe wasn't there, but the, the plan that they, that they'd underwrote never materialized.

[00:41:21] And so someone else comes in and has a go.

[00:41:24] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: There's a, it's interesting, Sam, just a slight build on your point. We did a a live event at the European Club Association, so the ECA, which is the collective body, obviously, as of the, of the European football clubs. And the question there was related to this in terms of, well, what happens when, I framed it a bit facetiously saying, 2030 called, the media rights money's gone.

[00:41:51] So what are you going to be doing? How are you going to be making money? What's the model? And there was two routes. One was content, become like Rexham, become a Ryan Reynolds esque figure who sort of sells and globalizes there.

[00:42:05] I can see your eyebrow raising at that one. The other one was the data route, and it talks to personalization, it talks to all the themes that we've touched on.

[00:42:15] But there was general agreement around the room, and the room was a big one.

[00:42:20] was that, where are the next leaps? Because to your point, it all feels very incremental. There is some merchandising

[00:42:30] to be done, efficiencies there, there's some, the media rights outcome, Outlook is not going up sharply to the right as it has been over the last 20 years, and the gravy train that everyone is on, that's not going to continue for the next 20 years in the same way.

[00:42:46] And, All the match day revenue questions, season tickets. As soon as you look at every revenue line, it's quite difficult to get enthusiastic about the next massive leap. And one of the questions was, should a football club just be a football club? Should they focus on performance? And again, the cliche, I live in Brighton where they found a 5 million or 10 million quid, defensive midfielder

[00:43:12] and sold him for a hundred.

[00:43:14] Is that what they're doing? Is that the data?

[00:43:18] Should football clubs, and we're looking at Ratcliffe and Man United, what's going to happen there? There's a performance question, there's a whole infrastructure being built there. But I would love to know what he thinks about the, the future revenue model. And whether or not he's looking at the NBA and saying, well actually that's my expectation.

[00:43:37] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I don't think football clubs can compete by being just football clubs.

[00:43:43] In my view, sporting success is directly correlated with commercial success. Of course, there's some variance and management matters. Luck even matters. But in the long run, If your revenues, especially with the current rules where you're not able to overspend your owner's money, will dictate how successful you are on the pitch.

[00:44:07] So, your earlier statement, can there be more REXIM type, opportunities? as it stands as an outlier and, that is based on the individual talents of two, amazing I don't know how to categorize them, entrepreneurs,

[00:44:22] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: stars,

[00:44:23] Sam Sadi LiveScore: stars, entrepreneurs. Yeah, they have been able to maximize, various different opportunities through their, talents.

[00:44:31] Whereas clubs doing more, with fans data. which at the moment they don't have. So first of all, collecting fans data. That's certainly a route to better commercial returns. We've seen what happened when Spotify discovered that Barcelona didn't have a single fans data. And I think like reduce the sponsorship price by 30%.

[00:44:56] So you can understand, how much more value a club could generate if they turned their anonymous fan bases. into, databases that they can have direct interaction with. And then it just requires, smart, innovative commercial management to say, we have X million of fans and we know their behaviors, we know that how they consume.

[00:45:20] So what kind of value can we deliver to them? So, nothing to do with, being a football club, basically. But this is how you can make up the decline in, broadcast revenues.

[00:45:33] It's one way, but they need to find other ways. Or, the whole ecosystem is going to have a deflation period, where, you know, player salaries and everything around, football is going to have to adjust.

[00:45:48] And that could be a crisis level. Periods, but it could be also prevented if they find these alternative business models and revenue sources. 

[00:45:58] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: I'm going

[00:45:58] to head us towards the end of a couple of just things I wanted to we mentioned there that there's going to be smaller sports that pop

[00:46:05] I'm wondering where you when you look at the market for sport generally

[00:46:11] Where do you see a, a potential good news story in terms of, well that's doing a lot of the things right.

[00:46:17] This is an area that it could be a particular sports property, could be a Formula E type thing, or it could be a sector. But what's your general

[00:46:26] sense? what catches your eye? 

[00:46:28] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I have one which most people probably don't talk about outside of the U. S. But U. S. college leagues are going to be. Some of the biggest new leagues and kind of sports that the world has ever seen as they become more and more professional and, and commercial. 

[00:46:48] James Liddy, Jeffries: teams that nobody has 

[00:46:50] heard of 

[00:46:53] Sam Sadi LiveScore: These colleges, have massive and very heavily engaged and loyal fan bases.

[00:46:59] And they continue to produce new fans. Every year another few thousand graduate, become alumni, and they become fans. And they, they are really, really strong fans. So these leagues, these teams that nobody has heard of outside of those regions even, not even national, they're going to start becoming big players in, in sports media, Bigger than they are.

[00:47:20] They're massive already, but they're going to start competing with the likes of the biggest football leagues or the FIFA World Cup or, these Champions League type of competitions.

[00:47:32] James Liddy, Jeffries: no, I like that one a lot, actually. Yeah, it's a great one.

[00:47:35] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: I think it's one that we don't, I as a someone in England or grew up in England, we hugely underestimate that college thing because we don't have it. It's not the same. And so the, you just say there's a sort of loyalty, there's just a, a conveyor belt of, and they're absurdly loyal, aren't they?

[00:47:53] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Yes, generationally

[00:47:54] loyal and, 80, 000, fans every weekend in attendance, local networks, just getting incredible viewership numbers.

[00:48:02] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: they define themselves by that allegiance as well, even more than they do the 

[00:48:06] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Correct. They,

[00:48:07] buy more merchandise and, and it's lifetime. They don't, they switch city, they move somewhere else that goes, goes with them. And now, there's, there's consolidation among the different conferences. The quality of the product is tremendous. I mean, look at an example.

[00:48:23] EA Sports now has, like, resumed doing a college football game because they're creating celebrities, their social media, there's NIL so they can monetize, everyone's getting a cut of it. So if there is any sport, I know, like, it's, an easy argument to say, okay, American football at a college level is going to do amazing, but it's going to go beyond what anybody imagines.

[00:48:44] I think that is, that would be my, my

[00:48:47] James Liddy, Jeffries: going to do amazing, but it's going to go beyond what anybody imagines. I think that is, that would be my, my projection. Is the right format or the most engaging format for them.

[00:49:12] I think what Formula One's doing, as Sam rightly points out, Formula One's almost like horse racing. It's like a perfect sport for gambling because you can kind of tinker with it and do whatever you want with it. But it's a closed, it's a closed league and it's really there for commercial 

[00:49:28] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: But it's not much that goes, is it a big gambling

[00:49:30] Sam Sadi LiveScore: that 

[00:49:30] same audience also, 

[00:49:31] gambles on, on, on others.

[00:49:33] But, I think what James is referring to as a, as an investments gamble.

[00:49:38] James Liddy, Jeffries: absolutely. Because I think they can do, they're doing very innovative things. I mean, I think even, even the product you see on TV now has changed quite dramatically in the last couple of years. As you say, they've added a lot more venues and everything else. But I think they're, they're continuing to be at the vanguard of tinkering with the viewer experience.

[00:49:57] and, and how that can be evolved and, and innovated over time. And I think other sports are watching what F1's doing pretty closely. Because the data they provide you, the, the different styles of commentary that you get, your ability to engage in, in a more rich environment than just watching on, on the television is, is a really interesting area of, of live sport at the moment, I think.

[00:50:22] And it's,

[00:50:23] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: And it's, it's sort of, of all the international properties, it's the most American like in terms of its structure. It's a closed world and they control that 

[00:50:31] world, don't they? In, 

[00:50:32] James Liddy, Jeffries: Absolutely. There's a fixed number of teams. No one's going to get dropped. 

[00:50:37] Sam Sadi LiveScore: We haven't talked about PIF yet. And I mentioned it,

[00:50:40] James Liddy, Jeffries: PIF.

[00:50:41] Sam Sadi LiveScore: PIF, or we can't say PIF. Okay. PIF. I didn't know that. I wanted to ask the question, like in, at some point there was a term called, can you soft bank this industry? So can you use massive amounts of capital and come in to dominate and eliminate, all your competition and then own a certain particular segment or 

[00:51:03] or an industry? 

[00:51:05] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: softbank, to 

[00:51:06] Sam Sadi LiveScore: point it used to be like 

[00:51:07] like Uber tried it with SoftBank and then WeWork didn't work out that well, but you know, you could come in and just try to take over, an entire segment, all these like delivery companies at some point were trying to get that. So can PIF come in with unprecedented amounts of capital and take over tennis and either actually take it over or just say we're starting from scratch, but we have so much capital that we're just going to grind it out and become, the champions league of tennis and all the players like would live are going to defect and that's it.

[00:51:44] ATP no longer exists. It's 

[00:51:46] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: a

[00:51:46] great question. It's a great question because also they're showing up in tennis different than they did in golf initially. They're much more front of house, they're much, they're, they're turning up at press conferences with their brand sitting next to the WTA.

[00:52:01] The, the golf experience was, it all looked a bit shifty.

[00:52:05] They were, they were being chased down the fairway by Dan Rowan of the BBC, and it, it, brand wise, I think they've learned a lesson from Liv. I don't know whether or not there's a, in terms of structurally, if there's any different behind the scenes, but I think it's a really interesting show.

[00:52:19] What,

[00:52:19] what. 

[00:52:20] James Liddy, Jeffries: scenes. But 

[00:52:22] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: If in 

[00:52:22] doubt, 

[00:52:22] James Liddy, Jeffries: chap.

[00:52:23] Blame Greg doubt. blame it on Sturdy. Yeah, exactly. Sturdy, Sturdy. Look, I think PIF are very sophisticated and I think you underestimate them at your peril in where it is. I think SoftBank may have just needed to deploy a very significant amount of capital and therefore the aperture for their investment was was very wide and they made massive bets in a whole range of different things.

[00:52:51] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Is that, is that banker speak for sort of Brewster's millions? That's, they just, they've got a load of money, they need to spend it as soon as, as quickly as they can. you don't need to 

[00:53:00] James Liddy, Jeffries: but look, but I think, I think PIF actually has a, has a strategy and they have a vision of what they want to do in sport and, and what it's like what they're doing in the luxury hotel space. 

[00:53:12] Sam Sadi LiveScore: the luxury hotel 

[00:53:13] James Liddy, Jeffries: interesting 

[00:53:13] Sam Sadi LiveScore: what 

[00:53:14] James Liddy, Jeffries: say, well, obviously, I don't know. It's their vision. It's not my

[00:53:17] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Oh, you know they have one, 

[00:53:18] James Liddy, Jeffries: I I think they do. I think they do have a real vision for it because I think again, they, They have pursued acquisitions of unique, irre, unreplicable assets. Whether that be ultra luxury hotels in unique locations, or whether that be sports like golf and tennis that I think were ripe for disruption. I think they're, they're pursuing a really interesting strategy and it's going to be fascinating to see how that plays out over the next decade or so.

[00:53:48] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: It's obviously more than money, and it's also about, the sort of broader its relationship to the state. Where does it, how does that play out elsewhere? Because whenever they show up,

[00:54:00] it gets to sports washing very quickly and that, that question, that debate, and I don't want to get into that now.

[00:54:06] But Does that impact how they, like, for example, you mentioned hotels or whatever,

[00:54:13] do they get, is the same baggage applied to where that what they're doing over there than they are in sport? Because with sport, just particularly emotive,

[00:54:22] they, they're coming over buying all this property and you get to the political conversation very

[00:54:27] James Liddy, Jeffries: That's interesting. You don't see those accusations really in any other arena. I mean, look, look at all the investment that KSA is putting into leisure and hospitality and travel, creating the, the Red Sea and Neom and other areas. And all, every single hotel group in the world right now is fascinated by KSA and the potential.

[00:54:49] Of that market to change dramatically for international tourists, but also domestic travel and you never hear oh, it's sports washing or I don't know hotel washing but but it seems unique to sport that that accusation gets Bandied around probably maybe a little bit too easily

[00:55:05] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Is that because most of us cannot make sense of those investments, and then we conclude that it must be sport washing? Like I struggle to understand what's the benefit of hosting a Serie A Super Cup match in Saudi, or what's the benefit of Hosting a, a boxing event. Like, does that, how does that benefit the country?

[00:55:35] How does that benefit the sport? What industry is it benefiting? What's the long term vision? Except to think

[00:55:42] someone must be thinking this is better. This is good for the brand of the country, but has it worked? Like I have watched those boxing events. Have I changed my opinion about KSA after that event?

[00:55:55] James Liddy, Jeffries: think it's quite interesting because they're obviously doing a lot in leisure and a lot in hospitality and a lot in travel. And then having major events in KSA as well as having major luxury hotels there as well for to accommodate the travellers it is, there is an integrated strategy.

[00:56:12] I think there's absolutely an integrated vision happening there, which I think the medium is.

[00:56:16] because it's easier to focus on sport, but they're absolutely investing in long term assets that I think will, I don't know if they'll be seen as a financial success over time across everything they're doing, that that's yet to be seen, but I think they're investing in long term assets. If you look at the investments that they make, they're not softbank esque in terms of they're expecting it to go from zero to a million overnight and it'd be a disrupt society.

[00:56:43] I think that they're focused on investing in long term properties that are going to provide a yield, a financial yield, but also probably a social yield as well, over a very long period of time. And that's why you're buying ultra luxury hotel chains and that's why you're investing in other areas other than oil and gas.

[00:57:02] for them to sustain their society and their economy for a very long period to come. And look at the success Dubai has had in, in hospitality and tourism. And I think that's taken really everyone by surprise. Everyone kind of dismissed Dubai over the years. It's like, oh, it's just a, nothing sustainable is really happening.

[00:57:20] It's a, it's a bubble, et cetera. But then Dubai has proven to be wildly successful in the hospitality industry. And I think other neighboring countries are looking at that thinking,

[00:57:30] Sam Sadi LiveScore: What is our 

[00:57:32] Dubai model 

[00:57:33] James Liddy, Jeffries: Yeah.

[00:57:33] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: yeah. it's fascinating.

[00:57:35] I'm going

[00:57:35] to, just to, conscious of your time, because we could go on for ages, but

[00:57:39] there's a question here about what should we be keeping an eye on? So we go right back to the beginning and talk about the sort of, the brief initially, in terms of, well, looking at the sort of, that relationship between sport and and the gambling sector.

[00:57:53] what are the trends?

[00:57:54] We'll follow up on this and I'll reconvene further down the road, but I'm interested in things because I don't, I'm not in that world, I'm not in your world, I don't see the news agenda on the same base, on the same way, so I'm interested in

[00:58:08] what's caught your imagination, what are the things that you think, okay, here are the, here is a couple of stories that you should listen as you keep an eye on.

[00:58:16] James Liddy, Jeffries: an evolution or a revolution in the way that we digest live sport and that we interact with live sport. I mean, you see now with like Genius Sports and others who are investing heavily in mobile phone technology where you can follow the player when you're sitting in the stadium, you can follow with your phone and all the stats for that player will come up on your phone live in real time.

[00:58:39] And so then maybe you can place another bet, but it just enriches your viewing experience. And I think. Betting plays a very big, big part in the economic model to drive that innovation. And I think it's probably underestimated how much betting influences that. And I think that's going to be very interesting to watch as we, there's

[00:59:00] Apple Goggles or whatever they're called, and that kind of more Immersive viewer experience happens.

[00:59:06] I think betting has a big part to play in driving the direction and of innovation and the amount of capital going into that innovation.

[00:59:15] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Things like the goggles and not specifically,

[00:59:17] but the some of some tech innovation I look at and think that's a solution looking for a problem, isn't it? And sometimes

[00:59:25] people jump land on betting is all about that. This will get us out of this. We've

[00:59:30] James Liddy, Jeffries: I think, I think, people thought that about iPads. I think people thought that about

[00:59:34] Mobile phones in the beginning, it's like, what do you, what do you need the internet in your palm for? You've got a computer. But look, look at how that's changed the world that we live in. And I think betting influences that.

[00:59:45] And I think that's going to change the way we digest live sport in the future. 

[00:59:50] Sam Sadi LiveScore: I I, gave back my first iPad after a week, so maybe I 

[00:59:53] shouldn't be making predictions about future developments in technology. I was like, this thing can't do anything. . Ironically it was because, the bed Fair didn't work on, on the first iPads.

[01:00:04] The, the browser couldn't render those pages. I'm like, if I can't bet on this device,

[01:00:09] James Liddy, Jeffries: product wasn't good 

[01:00:10] enough. So it doesn't matter about the brand. The product wasn't there. So they lost customer forever.

[01:00:13] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Yeah. Yeah. Now I can't go anywhere without my iPad, so, I mean, I, I, I think it's, it's easy to, to agree with what James said in terms of, the development of technology and, and increased, application of it to sports is somehow going to be, supported, in some cases subsidized by betting.

[01:00:36] I think that hasn't changed over time. I think betting has been one of the, primary ways to monetize an audience and increase engagement from, from that audience. And I think that's established now, that's understood. By most content owners, and they'll continue to drive that that forward to what level?

[01:00:54] I don't know. But yeah, certainly the trend will continue for for at least a decade in that direction.

[01:01:00] Richard Gillis Unofficial Partner: Listen, Sam, thank you very much for your time, really enjoyed that as ever, and James, thanks very much for your time as well.

[01:01:06] Sam Sadi LiveScore: Thanks for having us.