UP414 Wedge Issues: Callaway boss on Xander, YouTubers and why the LIV split dilutes golf’s product

Ben Sharpe, one of the most influential people in the golf business, as Managing Director & President of Callaway Golf across Europe, Middle East and Asia. Callaway is the largest manufacturer of golf equipment in the world and as such is a bellwether for any conversation about the commercial health of the game. Its tentacles run from the very top of the professional tours down to the participation at grass roots and in to retail and golf entertainment, via its TopGolf and Toptracer subsidiaries. 

Wedge Issues is an Unofficial Partner Production.

This week’s Unofficial Partner Podcast is sponsored by Loughborough University London and the Institute of Sports Humanities

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Transcript

Wedge Issues - Ben Sharpe, 

Callaway Golf

[00:00:00] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: It does matter. We've diluted the product of the best players playing against each other so the value therefore is compromised. So I think from a game perspective, a sport perspective, we need to figure it out. , if it's, one group fighting against another group to see how they can just make wealthier people wealthier. Then I think golf has a problem. And so I, we've got to fix it 

[00:00:25] That is Ben Sharpe, one of the most influential people in the golf business as managing director and president of Callaway golf across Europe, middle Eastern Asia. Calloway's the largest manufacturer of golf equipment in the world. And as such is a bellwether for any conversation. About the commercial health of the game. 

[00:00:44] Its tentacles run. From the very top of the professional tours down to the participation level at grassroots and then into retail and golf entertainment via its top golf and top tracer subsidiaries 

[00:00:56] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: We'll take the Pepsi challenge. We believe that, if you choose our product and play our product, you're going to be better than choosing somebody else's and we're prepared to put that to the test. So trial is very important, but getting people there sometimes is a digital journey to get them to a physical experience.

[00:01:12] This episode is sponsored by the Institute of Sports Humanities and Loughborough University London. Applications for the next intake on the 2024 Leadership in Sport Masters are open. The Leadership in Sport Masters is designed for sports industry executives to study part-time alongside their careers. The programme is co-delivered by Loughborough University London and the Institute of Sports Humanities (ISH), experts in leadership education. Loughborough University is ranked best university in the world for sports-related subjects (QS World University Rankings by Subject 2017-2023). 

Find out more https://www.sportshumanities.org/masters-uk

or contact tom.rann@sportshumanities.org

[00:01:52] .

[00:02:01] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: so how

[00:02:01] was the open for you? It's my favorite tournament. It's my favorite sports event. I think.

[00:02:05] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: It is special. It's funny. I think when you, when he's getting, when, when I got into the game and like golf on TV, you saw the, the, the PGA, Volvo PGA at Wentworth, and it was a beautiful, green golf course. And then you saw things like around with Alice, and pro celebrity golf, and you got into the, Characters there that I think were a lot more accessible than they are today.

[00:02:28] And that type of thing. And then the first open you just see this quite raw and rugged course. And you think what's the beauty in that? And the more and more you understand the game and the history of the game, and then you go to the course and you see how incredibly well prepared these courses are, I think your appreciation for the open just grows and grows every year.

[00:02:50] And and I've, I haven't, I didn't really know, I've never played Troon and I have not really walked the course before this week and on Thursday I walked around with some Japanese partners and, I have a whole new respect for the golf course. And you continue to have a respect for, for the players.

[00:03:07] And and obviously for us with Xander winning, it was it was a great, great week.

[00:03:11] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: there's also something nice about when you, I, small Scottish towns, you, you go there they're peculiarly odd places to get to quite often, and But when you're there, there's, there is an atmosphere about, and it's a whole week as well.

[00:03:23] So

[00:03:23] It builds over

[00:03:24] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: It does you've got to make an effort to go to an open because there's a natural bottleneck with, with the sea, isn't there? Just infrastructure and a lot of these storied courses are not in major cities with metros and trams and everything you do. So you do have to, you do have to commit to being a fan and lots of people get there early enough.

[00:03:42] So when they're there, Because it's taken such an effort to get there, they stay and they enjoy it come, come rain, rain and high wind and, and I, yeah, it's just, it's a special thing and I think that there's a knowledge of an open fan that's probably more than the average golf tournament and an appreciation for what may seem to the casual golfer as an average shot to, to a good shot.

[00:04:04] Um, 

[00:04:04] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: . You've got that, you mentioned Xander winning and it was, I found the whole tournament absolutely compelling. When I was there, I came back and watched the weekend on telly and, I was glued to it in a way that I'm not often, and this is a common story that you hear that people, the, the sort of diet of tours and it's, it's, people hitting it miles and, and 25 under par one and blah, blah, and there is something different.

[00:04:26] And then you get to. The sort of concentric rings, which again, you can imagine on this podcast, people quite often talk about there's a core avid fan base for every sport. And then you've got the sort of entertainment layer that

[00:04:41] is trying to get to the outer, the bigger number of

[00:04:45] people bringing them in. And the feedback afterwards was, Oh, look at the open. It's, it's raining and it's not going to be a great sales pitch for golf. And I was thinking, no, this is nonsense. but I'm obviously. This is the, but I'm obviously. In golf, I am an avid, I am absolutely in there. I want the hard stuff. I want, attritional final rounds.

[00:05:05] I want all of that. I want to see them suffer. But in other sports, I don't care about. I think, oh no, sod it. Just let them do anything. Just, they can ruin this game. I don't

[00:05:15] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: It's interesting because I think being a, I think that's a, that's the nuance between a true sports fan and a casual viewer. The true sports fan wants to see the best players being tested to their limits to see why they're that good. Also, the true sports fan appreciates, certainly if you're a certain generation, appreciates what it used to be like and tries to want to get that earthiness and soul back into the sport rather than it being this sort of very prescribed, polished product, commercial product that, that many sports are.

[00:05:50] And I think because of the history of the Open and because the courses are essentially unchanged and because you are open to the elements so much, that's what gives it such great theater. And I think the The perfect scenario is, it blows on a Saturday and it's glorious weather on a Sunday. So you do see the sort of final round and glorious sunshine, they've come through a massive challenge to get to where they are.

[00:06:14] And I think, probably In many opens, the luck of the draw is a factor, depending on if the weather is good on a morning and even on a, on an afternoon and vice versa. And I think that did play into it a little bit, this, this tournament, but, but that's what you, that's sport, right? The great thing about sport is you don't know the outcome before you Before you go and watch the event and there's always the unknown.

[00:06:36] And, and I think that's just, and we, we saw it, we saw it there. We thought that Shane Lowry was going to run away with it at one stage. And, and, Henrik and Phil, I thought the final, final round with Justin and and Xander was, was just compelling viewing, just great quality, compelling viewing.

[00:06:52] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. Yeah. What does it do for Xa? He's, he is obviously won in, he's now, feels like he's gone into a different place. 

[00:07:00] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: Yeah, I'd I'd, I'd like to spend some, some more time with him and understand really what makes him tick because I think certainly this year he's had a, a banner year with two majors. But I think the Olympic games four years ago was probably the watershed where he, he won a big one.

[00:07:16] And whether you think that golf in the Olympics is a big one, it looks like the players are taking a lot more seriously than maybe they did when it started back. Yeah. And it, and it shows that, gives you confidence that you can get over the line. And, it's the Dave Brailsford marginal gains thing that you, you, small little bits of confidence allow you to then go to that next level.

[00:07:36] And him along with Scotty Scheffler are the best players in the world right now. And he's winning now rather than top two, top three, top five. And so I think that's given him. a confidence in his step and a confidence in his game that possibly he didn't have a couple of years ago. And it's, it's that thing.

[00:07:55] And but golf like life knocks you and I'm sure, there's going to be some challenges cause it's not just going to be a linear line now to being the best player in the world forever. And but I think with his network, his family network, and just to. Relatively calm nature in the way he holds himself.

[00:08:14] Um, I think we're excited about, we've, we've are very excited about what he can now do in the game. And he's, he's a real, real, real top player.

[00:08:20] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: so a very simplistic. analysis a Callaway player wins the open.

[00:08:25] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: Mm.

[00:08:25] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: So I'm thinking, okay, now I'm going to jump and then say , what happens? What's the good stuff for Callaway? I've got all sorts of assumptions, but just

[00:08:36] what do you see when you see your player holding that trophy?

[00:08:42] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: We smile a lot. Um,

[00:08:44] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Better than losing it.

[00:08:46] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: yeah. And, but it's, it goes back to why are we, why do we support The best players in the world. And why do we want the best players in the world to, to play our products? And, the Callaway engine is a behemoth of R& D and engineering and cosmetic design and, ballistics technologies to try and make sure that we give.

[00:09:14] Every golfer, the opportunity to play their best golf. And the, the sport of golf is an aspirational journey to, to where you want to get to, and we want to give everybody in each sector, the best tools to do that, and we have core technology platforms in terms of our, our AI technology in our putters and our wedges in the, the golf ball that we've spent.

[00:09:40] 100 million developing and making sure that through the wind, it performs the best and gives you speed and feel and spin. And so when. Our player wins with our latest driver, our latest irons, our putter, and our latest ball. It validates that technology to say that this isn't just marketing spin, this is real.

[00:10:06] This is real performance that's helped a golfer, Become the champion golfer in arguably the most testing conditions and hearing him then speak after that and say that the ball was a big factor in that win again validates that the work that we do in our factories, in our, in our teams mean something.

[00:10:28] We, we turn up on mass at the open because those are the times when the most number of eyeballs are on the game and we do what we can to help our athletes and be part of helping our athletes prepare to be the best they can be. And when they win, it's a team effort, but we've done something and we've helped somebody achieve the sort of ultimate in the game.

[00:10:49] And then we celebrate that. And I think that then is the talk of the industry. So then we will go out to see our retail partners in golf clubs and in, off course pro shops and what we speak and we speak online and we see the things in terms of engagement in our social media, in terms of people talking about our products.

[00:11:07] And then we talk about our products, we get them in golfers hands. And if we get them in golfers hands and they see the same gains that the best players in the world have, we create conversion. And there's a tangible. benefit for players winning with our products, because it validates what we do.

[00:11:25] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: So how many, Xanders are there in terms of the, 'cause when I was looking, I was sitting on the range and you, you count the bags, you count the club. You, you think, okay, who's out here? Who's a big presence? You've got, and you've got the vans, You've got, and you've got the vans, so so you've got Callaway, you've got your former place tailor made.

[00:11:42] You've got know. Ping, Titleist, all of the names that golfers know. And then it gets to differentiation. And I think there's a sort of, so there's, there's two questions here from a, just from a marketing lens, first of all, which is, the difference? Does this play into differentiation for you or scale? And the question we ask quite often, one here is how many players sell product, and it's always, I think it's always much smaller than I, or people. thing. But there is, there is a message in the scale. I need, you need probably to see lots of Callaway bags out there. Because I need to Be

[00:12:21] reassured that you're proper.

[00:12:24] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: yeah, so I think when you, when you look at the tour, I think there are four buckets that then sell product or promote your brand. You have the undeniable best players in the world of which Xander is one, And he's playing our products and he's using our products for his livelihood to be the best in the world.

[00:12:46] And that's undeniably positive for our brand. And he's got Callaway on the front of his hat, and he's got the most number of seconds on TV and our brand is front and center, and he wins and he holds a claret jug, and it doesn't get much better than that. You have you have the young bucks, the, the, the, the guys who are going to be the next best in the world or could potentially be, the next best in the world and, and that they are choosing to use our products to go on that journey to be the best in the world and used to see, maybe in the first couple of rounds, some breakthrough players.

[00:13:19] who are using your product that people don't know, but then just because they've had that 15 minutes of fame or that round, then it starts to resonate and the association with our brand and that young buck, um, makes a difference. You have the players who are loved. Maybe some of the older players, back in the day, people like Tom Watson and Freddie couples and people like that who are, who are loved.

[00:13:41] And, sometimes people just want to be like their heroes. My hero was Seve. And so I, wanted my dad to buy me a Schlesinger sweater and I wanted to use, the clubs that he uses. And, he became a Callaway guy later in, in his career. And I just wanted to do everything that, that he did because he was my hero.

[00:13:59] And then you have the count element of it. So Odyssey is the number one putter on tour. It's number one putter on golf. And, and just by the number of people using it, it validates who you are because more people use our products than than anybody else. And so it's a mix in that. And you want to make sure that you've got you've got a place in each one of those boxes because then it just constantly reinforces, depending on where the viewer or the golfer or the fan is looking, that you're showing up in those things that can then just make sure you're driving sort of advocacy and, and presence with, with your brand.

[00:14:28] To ask, to ask your question, yeah, there may be a few individuals who can drive it on their own, but if you spread yourself across those four boxes, I think you, you get to your result.

[00:14:40] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: so you've got this, the tours and let's just keep the conversation there for a moment. We know there's, there's,

[00:14:46] it's, 

[00:14:46] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: Hmm.

[00:14:47] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: let's call it dynamic. Let's call it chaotic. There's, there's, there's a whole load of stuff happening that we're all

[00:14:52] very aware of. You've got Live Golf over here. You've got the politics that's rumbled on for the last few years.

[00:14:58] What does, what is that doing for that marketplace, for that showroom element? of the clubs. Does it matter to you that that 

[00:15:08] stuff, you stand aside and say, do what you got to do, but we're selling clubs wherever they turn up, or are you more concerned about it? or are you

[00:15:16] more concerned about it?

[00:15:16] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: yeah, from, from my perspective, it, it does matter. I think if you are a sports fan of any sport, And you want to go to the top tournament, you want to see the best players playing against the best players. Because you know then, the winner is, has come through the toughest test against the best in the world.

[00:15:35] And The great thing about the Open and other majors is that happens. But for a golf fan who, we're used to watching and we know the PGA Tour swing and we know the tournaments that happen around the world. For That not to happen on a regular basis, then we've diluted the product of the best players playing against each other and therefore, I would imagine the engagement in the fans has gone down because they're not seeing some of that best players playing against each other.

[00:16:11] So the value therefore is compromised. So I think from a game perspective, a sport perspective, we need to figure it out. And, and we need to find a way where we can, again, on a regular basis, get the best, the best players playing right now. There's a bit of a danger that, we've got a sort of financial conversation about how much players are paid to play.

[00:16:38] And we've got to remember the majority of golfers are you and I. Who pay our, memberships, pay our green fees, get influenced by what we see on the tee, but just love the game of golf. And there's always been this pyramid of influence that starts with the top of the tree and goes to elite amateur and goes to club champion and goes to the masses.

[00:16:59] And the further down the pyramid you are, you've got more golfers. But if, if it's, one group fighting against another group to see how they can just make wealthier people wealthier. and that doesn't come down into the pyramids, then I think golf has a problem. And so I, from my personal perspective, we've got to fix it and we've got to fix it.

[00:17:18] So there's an opportunity to co exist where everybody is engaged. And ultimately we showcase our sport with the best players against playing against the best players.

[00:17:28] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: When it was interesting, again, we were both in the room at the AGW dinner on the Tuesday night and we were, I was standing there and, You had Jay Monaghan walking past saying, you know, and we were in a circle, hello, Guy Kinnings, Slumbers, you had all of the people in the room. And at the talk that week, and we're now talking, it's nearly a month ago now, but, And at the talk that week, and we're now talking, it's nearly a month ago now, but, oh, it was close that, they're, they're meeting and there's, there's stuff going on behind the scenes and this is going to happen. And we're still chugging away and we haven't, heard anything. It's frustrating in a way that it's just this stasis.

[00:18:02] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: It is. And I think, but then you've got to, so you, you look from a brand perspective, I want to get, I want to get more golfers having our products in their hands. And so where is that? Where are the vehicles that can help me do that? And over the last 10 years, that has changed a little bit.

[00:18:21] Print media has gone to digital media, has gone to video media. Influencers aren't just professional golfers. They are YouTubers and they are TikTok guys and they are, and the following and the engagement and the content they're able to create is is moving the needle. So in the past where it was just about the tool from an influencer perspective, it's changed.

[00:18:44] And if we're not careful from the professional tools perspectives, then we will accelerate the fact that they'll become less relevant than they were. And then if that's the case, they'll lose their sponsorships. Or they'll certainly not get the sponsorships they want. They'll lose some of the TV time, which will, and it will be a self fulfilling prophecy based on them not being able to get to where, where we need to get to.

[00:19:08] And worlds change, investors come in, new ideas come in. And we've got to know that whilst we have a great game with a great heritage, which hasn't really changed from a playing perspective, but from a consumption perspective, it is changing dramatically. And if, and if the game doesn't evolve. and embrace the new, then that part of the game will, will suffer and a new form of viewing or engagement will, will take its place.

[00:19:40] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: It was, it was really interesting watching again, I didn't spend all my time at the range, but I was, I was, I was sitting there and the best golfers in the world were hitting balls and then Peter Finch and Rick Shields walked past

[00:19:54] and the group next to me got their phones out and started taking. Pictures and, and it think they were subsumed within the sky coverage. And it was quite interesting because there's a bit of it that Jard, because they're so familiar on, if you follow them, you follow them and they are, they are what, My, my viewership of golf has shifted quite dramatically and, and TikTok is now quite central to it in a way that it would never was before. And those guys are driving that. And the PJ tour has got a creator event, as you know, this over the last week. So seriously are you taking that? Cause it does. Play with your marketing channels, doesn't it?

[00:20:37] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: We we take it very, very seriously. Because we can see the engagement levels and the, the good or the bad thing about social media is it's measured and you can see how many click throughs and how many views and how many likes and and. And the length of time and you can, you can measure it. So it's a lot more tangible than, than seeing, somebody play and win and wondering how many people have seen it live.

[00:21:02] So it's, it's, it's a phenomenon that's not going to go away, but it's something that needs to be part of the solution, not a complete swap. 

[00:21:11] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Interesting. You mentioned the word tangible there, and it was a question I was going to ask, because you get into brand versus product a bit, don't you? In terms of I can see, I can see Xander Shoflo being yes, it's brilliant. He's playing your clubs, but there is also a brand, there's an intangible there that's going on. And in my head, as you were talking, I was thinking, okay would I then, if I was in your shoes, shift my marketing spend away from tour players into the Rick Shields creator marketplace? And what would happen? And you could measure it. You could start to say, yeah, we can have a direct attribution, but I'm wondering what you would lose in that transition.

[00:21:45] Yeah, Yeah,

[00:21:46] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: think that's why I think it's you've got to embrace them both, from a brand perspective, a brand, stands for a purpose or a meaning and builds trust with their fans. And so then over time, when that brand speaks, you listen to it because you're a fan and when they bring out a new product, you want to go and try it because you think, you associate with that brand where people like Rick and.

[00:22:09] Peter Finch and others come in is they probably break it down and then go to more of the sort of product side and they go past the brand. So that's why I think you need both best players in the world using it. Loved people count is a strong brand message that use our technical platforms. They, the, the Rick Shields probably put it in a little bit more layman's terms to to the casual player, and break it down and then see, show the, Sort of the how, you've got the why on the brand and the how, with them and, and, and the, the really important thing again, through this pyramid is making sure that you're connecting each layer.

[00:22:46] And so it's a seamless industry rather than there being gaps. And I think what they've done is they filled a lot of that gap from that traditional. TV and print media of the past and filled where people are spending their time, which is on their phones and on their tablets and on their laptops, to provide that content where.

[00:23:08] where the viewer is. And, and I think they've done it. I think those two have done a fantastic job and there's, there's plenty of other people like the good, good guys and Bob does sports and, and the, the, the, the content that they're able to create in a fun way. Cause we've always, we've always, looked about golf, if you take golf 20 years ago, 25 years ago, when I started, they were saying, how can we get people to play the game?

[00:23:28] And there's always these barriers. Time is a barrier. Cost is a barrier. Protocol is a barrier and fun. And I guess one of the hardest things is, is, is, is golf is hard as well. And so if you can bring more fun, you get people to play more. And if people play more, they will get better. And if they get better, they'll stay in the game.

[00:23:49] And so that content with these social media, YouTube guys, I think is adding to the fun element of the game, which is super important, for the next generation.

[00:24:00] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: it's interesting. Bryson is doing both jobs in a way. He's got, he's in, and I think he's an interesting case study, but I don't associate any clubs with, I know he's with, I know Cobra is in there somewhere, but he's not, he's selling himself. He's selling brand Bryson,

[00:24:15] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: He is. And I, and I think, I think he's making his. Make his own clubs at the moment because he, he's this sort of, 

[00:24:20] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: professor. 

[00:24:21] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: mad professor, geeky scientist, but what a transformation of a personal brand he's gone on over the last two years. And I'm a fan. I stood 

[00:24:30] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: I'm getting there.

[00:24:31] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: and I, and I There was a bit of a mix, zone where all of the kids with their autographs and cell phones were there and just, I'm sure others did it, but he finished a long range session and he went by and he spent half an hour signing everything, taking pictures with everybody, making sure everybody got what they wanted before he departed.

[00:24:53] And I just thought that was class because that's what You want from the best players because the best players in the world, they play to win a tournament, but had they have responsibility for our sport as well and how they carry and how it's perceived to, to the fans. And, and I thought he was fantastic.

[00:25:10] He struggled because I think he struggles in the wind when he hits it that far and that high. 

[00:25:14] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Needs a Callaway Bull,

[00:25:16] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: I think he probably does. 

[00:25:17] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: You

[00:25:17] got to send him a pack.

[00:25:18] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: I think we'll, we'll give him a bit of education from a, from a sort of aerodynamics and ball from a professor perspective, and maybe he'll be he'll be better next time.

[00:25:25] But, yeah.

[00:25:25] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: What do you think that that world is doing? What the questions it's asking, the sort of official tour and its media partnerships and its sponsorships and which is all predicated on exclusivity and category exclusivity and Scott, you can't do this. I was told off by a very nice old Scottish gentleman who was a, A guy working the course, he said, you can't use your ca.

[00:25:47] I took a ca, it was a practice day and I got my phone out and I was taking a, a, it was Thomas, and I was thinking I was right behind him and I was gonna send it, WhatsApp it, and I was told, you can't do that. 'cause I'm encroaching on Skye's rights. And I'm like, first of all, I get it. It's gonna be very hard to police that, first of all.

[00:26:05] But secondly, it feels like we're at a moment where. Those two worlds are colliding and, it's, I don't know what the outcome is going to be because if you're selling exclusivity to broadcasters or to other commercial partners, by definition, it's going to be hard to be loose with everyone else.

[00:26:27] If Bryson brings a camera crew in, how many camera crews can you, can you allow in before chaos ensues? So it's quite a tricky balance. If you're in

[00:26:35] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: As soon as you, as soon as you, if soon as you say the word exclusive, then the word, limit. comes out as well. And, we in the industry want our game to grow and thrive. And I've lost count of the number of meetings and conversations we've had about how do we grow the game. And you grow the game by being inclusive and removing barriers rather than putting up barriers.

[00:26:58] And, what's the most popular sport in the world in terms of viewership? It's football, soccer. And, I don't think you see the restrictions there. And you, you, and, and so by creating that exclusivity and limitations to what you can do, you're going to, you're going to limit the content that can go to somebody who might not ordinarily see it and, and potentially get them to, they're not going to take up the game.

[00:27:21] And in the industry, there are so many. new ideas, and new, ways of enjoying the game that we are in, sometimes we try and pocket and, put things into pigeonholes and saying that's golf and that's not golf. And you can do that here and you can't do that here. And it goes back to the old, club where you've got to, mind your P's and Q's and you're not allowed to come in on a Thursday afternoon because that's such and such and you can't play at this time of the day.

[00:27:50] And that's that's old golf. Surely the new generation is. And if we take, guidance from everything that's going on in the world is we've got to meet the consumer where they're at, rather than tell them what they can do. Because as soon as you tell people what you can do, you lose engagement, you lose the fan, you lose the player.

[00:28:10] So not a fan of that personally, because I think we should open it up, especially at the open, we should open it up. So whoever wants to view what we do should be allowed to do so.

[00:28:21] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: okay. following that thread, then in terms of meeting the people where they are, let's just push this to a retail question, because it used to be that I used to buy clubs from a golf pro. And now I, then I went through a phase of, buying them at sort of American golf type places and there, and then obviously online. From your perspective, just give us a, take us inside that bit because it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, Again, the, there's a question leading into Topgolf ultimately in a minute, but I just want to talk about retail and because if I step back for a moment, Callaway is a directional company in golf. People will look at it and say how, what's the health of golf? And they'll say let's find out what Callaway are doing. And we're looking at, they go to a share price and the share price has gone down and we start to make judgments, but take us inside that bit of your job.

[00:29:10] Because we've talked about the tours and the entertainment side of it, but on a day to day basis, it's getting clubs and balls and everything else into golfer's hands. How is that changing?

[00:29:22] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: Yeah. So it's I think it's changing like every retail environment. And a little bit like we spoke about in terms of the mix between tour players and, and YouTubers, there's a mix in terms of retail and, and, and how we can get and how we can engage with the player, the golfer. And I think, if you go back to, to what we are, we, we believe in our company that we.

[00:29:42] Our products can help golfers play better through performance. And so then if you look at what are we trying to achieve, we're trying to achieve to get our products in golfers hands so they can experience them. They can see that they can better and ultimately they can go and purchase. The way people consume, the way people, shop, the way people interact has, has changed from everything being a physical interaction to there being a digital interaction.

[00:30:08] But at the same time, golf clubs are very much a considered purchase rather than a consumable item. And so we would like to encourage people to try them to make sure it's right for them. So custom fit is a big part of our a big part of our business to make sure that the product is right for you, that it's, it's the right loft, it's the right lie, it's the right type, it's the right grip, so that it gives you so that when you've got it, we believe that's the ultimate solution for you and it's going to perform the best for you.

[00:30:36] So thank you. There is, a digital play. The digital play is going to be more on the consumable sides because on the golf club sides, we still want people to go and be fitted by PGA professionals. We still want people to have that level of engagement, interaction and trust with their club professional.

[00:30:53] Or with the person in the store, American Golfs and PGA Superstores and the UPSA, Dick's Sporting Goods, all these sort of things. And, and We just want to make sure that wherever that golfer wants to go and try our product, that we're there and that they get a good experience. And then as we start to get more data and we start to understand that golfer type and where they shop to make sure that the right presentation and the right proposition.

[00:31:13] is, is there for them. And that might be different in the golf pro shop than it is in a sporting goods store. But I think you've got to embrace all of those categories, but again, going back to the huge amount of money that we spend in engineering and the huge amount of money that we spend in fitting people and, and training people.

[00:31:13] It's very important that, we try because we'll take the Pepsi challenge. We believe that, if you choose our product and play our product, you're going to be better than choosing somebody else's and we're prepared to put that to the test. So trial is very important, but getting people there sometimes is a digital journey to get them to a physical experience.

[00:31:33] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: So in terms of the so something like, so the data question, let's land on that. so the data question, let's land on that. So the interesting bit about Callaway compared to your competitors and is I think the Topgolf relationship. So you've got this entertainment product, but is it felt to me? You've got Topgolf, which is high end or, or sophisticated driving ranges, I can see that there is a line there. I hit a ball, you know, what I'm like by the data that you're collecting there. help me? help me? Choose a golf club because that in my head, I thought, Oh well, that's clever. They'll they'll, they've got the line.

[00:32:05] They've got the me

[00:32:06] playing golf. They've got the data in the ball and in the top tracer, whatever it is. And that means I will get a better fit. Is that promise.

[00:32:17] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: we're very excited about what that can give us. And we believe we're in a unique position for that because we have, our traditional Callaway golf business, where we have, tens of thousands of stockists, that we have relationships with and we fit them and we know them.

[00:32:36] And it's like a, a, Sort of a one on one relationship with the fitter and the player. We have, Topgolf. where we have a hundred venues, 35 million people coming through the door each year, hitting billions of golf balls. But we know that 65 percent of those people have never been on a golf course, but that's still to say that over 10 million people go to Topgolf are golfers, self determined golfers.

[00:33:02] And there's an entertainment feel to that as well. And we have that data. We also in the middle have Top Tracer range. Which, I ran for five years and we've got a thousand locations, over a thousand locations now around the world. And those are traditional driving ranges with technology. So the demographic going there is a lot of our core audience.

[00:33:25] And I think last year we hit 5 billion balls and and when we know what they're trying to achieve in terms of what target or what hole they're going to, we can then start to use that in our data models in terms of what golfers are playing, playing what shots and how many, what percentage of people hit it to the right and slice it, how many people hook it, what's their average distance, and the more and more we can know about you in terms of who you are, what your name is, what your handicap is, that over time, It's just going to make our R& D so much, so much more relevant, so much more, so much better in terms of getting the right product for you.

[00:34:00] And in fact, the top tracer technology, that we have in the group was a big part of developing the Chrome Tour and the Chrome TourX Golf Ball at Xander One at the Open Championship, because it allowed us to just have a lot more. Information in terms of not just speed and and distance, but trajectory and spin, that that I don't think anybody else has been able to have in the industry.

[00:34:24] So that just whole group of data, which I, it's, it's terms of game sessions. Now it's getting close to 100 million game sessions a year that we, on an annual basis that we get and that shot data, we're now investing in data analytics in a group that then can make that meaningful for our retailers, for us, and for the golfer.

[00:34:45] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: That's interesting that I didn't realize until you just said it, the distinction between Top Tracer and Top Golf. So Top Golf is where I would go. I might go, on a range and there's a bar and there's a whatever, and I might go, I might go back. Or whatever, I might go as a corporate group. And I was conflating the two.

[00:35:05] I hadn't made that distinction between Top Tracer and Topgolf.

[00:35:08] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: So Topgolf is a total immersive experience for music, to food, to drink, but you can also play. And the game started as a target orientated practice by the Geolith team. Brothers from Watford. And then you bring in games there that also have a fun element, aimed at the casual golfer. So you can play Angry Birds.

[00:35:28] There's a new game called Block Party where you get you get gratification and you get rewarded for any hit. That you, that you can, can do. Top tracer range was built for golf. It's a golf product. It, it's a technology that the ranges can then, operate as they wish. And if they want to have an element of, of entertainment, they can.

[00:35:48] But it's aimed at that traditional driving range user, which is a golfer who goes and plays on the golf course. So the link between Top Trace and Range and Callaway is, is really, it's the same, same guys. Not to say, there's lots of people from Top Golf who play golf. Of the 65 percent who've never played, there is still a large number of those who then ultimately go to, a golf course.

[00:36:06] And so there's a draft there, but you can see The sort of ecosystem that we've got and the information that we get. And some of the best played games on a Top Tracer range are the launch monitor and my practice where I can look at my gapping and my distances and, and by club and where you play in Topgolf, it's about beating your friends.

[00:36:27] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: So it's interesting. So when I see, again, this week there's, there's new stories about, Topgolf Callaway looking at a strategic review of Topgolf and, talking about do they spin it off or do they sell that bit of the business off? I had misconstrued that as, as. What you were just talking about in terms of the data bit as well.

[00:36:47] So if we just, so then it's the question and this, again, I'm, I'm, I'm pursuing this because it's a conversation that is, that is universal to lots of different sports and teams and which is what are they strategically and when sport and entertainment get put in together. So golf entertainment and Topgolf was a sort of a great example of that trend. One question was. Should Callaway, can Callaway, or can a football club be a media house? Can it, can it be like Netflix? Can a football, should Real Madrid or Barcelona have their own media places? Should they be experiential brands that have all these things? All of them are possible, but should they?

[00:37:29] I think it's quite an interesting question there at the heart of it, in terms of the golf entertainment trend, or sports entertainment trend.

[00:37:36] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: Yeah, and I think, this golf entertainment expression, continues to intrigue me because I think golf is entertainment. I think you enjoyed watching it at the open and it's entertaining. I think you enjoy playing it and it's entertaining.

[00:37:57] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: But there's

[00:37:57] not enough of me, For the shareholders of various companies to say, yeah, we'll build a business on that. They need a massive number 

[00:38:06] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: no, they do. But then, but then, like we've spoken about in terms of exclusivity on, on TV and, and limiting it, I think we're in, I don't want us to try and pigeonhole golf. I think golf is hitting a golf ball with a golf club. And you can do that indoors, outdoors, on a simulator, on a golf course, on a driving range, and I think it's golf.

[00:38:27] And so then if you then take that and say Top golf is golf because people are hitting a golf ball with a golf club And there's 35 million people doing it every year And 67 percent of those people have never been on a golf course. And of those, a good percentage go and play on a golf course in the first year.

[00:38:45] And the demographics, I think 40 percent of the people who come and play are women. And in terms of, the sort of backgrounds, it's the most diverse, a group of people hitting a golf ball with a golf club. That transcends Topgolf Callaway brands. That is a great thing for the industry because we are arguably the largest grow the game initiative that there is in the sport.

[00:39:08] And so you start to say, if that, if we own that and we have, all the other things from Travis Matthew and on apparel and Callaway on, and we've got balls and all that and technology and what have you, it's a very strong position to be. But from an industry perspective, where are you getting the growth?

[00:39:23] Go and put some more top tracer ranges in and go and put some more, top golfs in and you're going to get more, more millions of plays and games played, which is going to be good for the whole ecosystem of what we do.

[00:39:33] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: I always wonder about those golf golfers numbers, where, so you get the surveys go round and, and you always look at who's doing the counting is what is the first job. I, and again, we've got a rule on this podcast that the numbers are always wrong. So we

[00:39:48] just have to put that, that's that caveat, but you've got this, the top of the funnel.

[00:39:54] Which is where you would probably place, top golf is, is definitely golf. I agree. When I look at some of the numbers that I saw, some, I think it might be in the data golf data tech numbers in terms of numbers of players in the world or in America or in whatever, they put crazy golf in there and I'm just like thinking and they're calling it something else. I'm thinking that realistically. That's, I can get why they do that. It meets your criteria if it's a, a golf club, someone hitting a golf ball. But the, the use of that in the context of the, the conversation about is golf healthy or not healthy is, is it feels, it feels like a sort of a false number.

[00:40:37] It feels like a it's the attribution or the getting that number down and onto a golf course or being of any use economically is going to be very hard yards and probably not worth the effort.

[00:40:50] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: To a degree, I mean, everything has its, its, its place, but it's this is what, who's the expression? There's statistics, statistics and damn lies. And I think, you can, you can drive a hole in, in any number when you come through, through that. But, again, you go back, most popular sport in the world is football.

[00:41:03] Do you count people throwing their jumpers down on the field and kicking? Do you count them as people who are actively playing the game in a year? 

[00:41:09] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Interesting, the FA didn't use to did they? When Six Aside started out, they,

[00:41:14] tried to undermine it because they said no is 11 players on grass. And

[00:41:19] so six aside in a tennis court was not deemed as football. Now that it's a completely different question. Now it's for all. And so they want to have as many numbers as they can. Again, it gets to that. Limits and exclusivity question in terms of what are we and

[00:41:35] what, what can we be? And what

[00:41:36] should we be?

[00:41:38] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: Yeah, and do you have to be one thing or the other or can you be all and can you just embrace it now crazy golf? Apart from the windmills is a very enjoyable experience. But it is hitting the golf ball and it is introducing it. And people say, I play golf, five year olds say play golf and maybe it's something that can help get to that aspirational journey.

[00:41:57] Maybe, maybe it doesn't, but I don't think it should be, people should turn their nose up at it. It's, it's a, it's a fun thing to do. And, and I think we as a sport, I just want us to embrace the new and make sure that if you're around what we do, and if you're around a golf ball, you've got a smile on your face, and that can only be a good thing.

[00:42:14] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Ben, I'm, I go, I live in Brighton. I go down to the seafront and I literally turn my nose up at these people. I'm, I'm, I'm pointing, shouting at them. You're not proper golfers. Don't pretend to be golfers. You're of no use. 

[00:42:24] That's 

[00:42:24] my, you know, yeah, that's my attitude.

[00:42:26] That's my attitude. There's a question about, so TGL, we've gone for, we've talked about Top Tracer.

[00:42:32] I saw a deal or not a deal. It's an announcement this week, a press release about Top Tracer is involved in TGL, TGL is, is, and, listeners it's, it's the sort of. It's got an interesting history. It hasn't started yet, which is the most interesting. It got blown over, didn't

[00:42:48] it? It was going to be

[00:42:49] in January and then it the wind got up and the whole thing fell over.

[00:42:51] So they're doing it next year. But there's a lot of money, lot of the traditional, loads of people that people would know listening to this. So people like, obviously Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy. It's again, talking about golf entertainment and it's got money behind it and they're creating team brands.

[00:43:08] In the same way as Live Golf has created team, team brands, which again is interesting element to it. Take me through what's your aspiration for it or what do you, when you look at it, what do you think? Is it the same as, is it a better version of crazy golf? This is what, is what this is.

[00:43:23] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: It's a different version of crazy. Now I'm, I am excitedly curious about what it's going to be. So Mike McCarley is a good friend of mine who came up with the idea, and work with, with Rory and Tiger to bring it to life. Andrew McCauley is a former colleague and is the chief technical officer and of Tomorrow Sports and, knows a lot about what, what we can, we can do.

[00:43:46] And like I mentioned, earlier about pro celebrity golf and around with Alice back in the day, it's bringing golf to a different audience, to a Monday night audience, prime time, that's just going to get some people to think, Hmm, maybe golf is my thing. And the people who like golf to say, I quite like this.

[00:44:04] This is pretty cool. I think, we've been involved quite a bit with them over the last two or three years, in terms of looking at that experience. And we did put our technology in place of blue down and they've built a stronger house now. And I think we're, we're excited about it. And the experience on the TV, I think is also going to be matched by a super cool experience when you actually go to the studio.

[00:44:26] So where we are, there's the board will travel. 35, 40 meters in the air before it gets to the screen. And then it becomes a, a digital view. And we've done a huge amount of testing and, from, from what I've seen, it looks just really arresting. It's like bright lights, but playing golf, how that, how that comes across.

[00:44:50] We won't know until we know and we get the first reviews, but they've signed up some really good players. And they've got so, and they, and I think the players and, some of the teams like the Boston common team is super excited about, about that. And speaking to a friend of mine, Mark Lev, who's invested, who's involved in the Boston common team, really Also excitedly curious about what this can be and how this can develop.

[00:45:11] I think they've been very smart in terms of the scheduling of it. It doesn't conflict with any other sort of us, primetime sports and it could find its place. And we're excited from a top tracer perspective in terms of the partnership, but we're, I'm also excited from a golf perspective in terms of another.

[00:45:30] Another opportunity to get people, watching our sport.

[00:45:35] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I get it. And I, I when I, we're going to, we're trying to get Mike McCarley on here actually, so you might be of use in this conversation, but there is a it's, it's good that golf is trying these things. I'm all for innovation. I'm all for, and it's interesting.

[00:45:44] There was a sort of bit at the beginning where I thought it was a sort of counter to live and they went with this is our version of live and whatever, but I, that might be just confusion in the, in the sort of, the, the the fog that surrounded that

[00:45:56] period, but it'd be interesting to see what happens. 

[00:45:58] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: It's, it's unique. And you, when you start something like that, one of the biggest challenges of making sure you can schedule it. So it fits in with, the player's plans. And so you can, what you don't want to, I can't play today because I'm going to be in, in Japan the following week.

[00:46:09] And they've done a really good job and they've, they've signed people up and speaking to the players, the players are excited, to, to play. And, and if they're excited again, you might see them maybe have a different. Attitude to the game that you see when you see them on the professional tours. You might, playing in a team event, more high fives, more smiles, and, and maybe that's a way in connecting that type of player back to the core golfer that's so important for us as an industry.

[00:46:39] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: We had a lovely evening on at Dundonald at the Callaway evening. What was interesting about that? It was, there was, obviously as people, for people don't go to the open early part of the week, there's, there is some.

[00:46:50] Marketing stuff that happens. And you had a night on Monday night at Dundona links, which is stunning place. It was interesting. You went to wedges, Ike, because actually one of the things that you quite often, the marketing messages from, I'm not talking about Callaway, but the golf generally has been about distance

[00:47:06] and, They're obsessed with distance.

[00:47:07] And actually it was quite refreshing to go the other way. It's quite interesting that you weren't talking about distance. It was, and it was really interesting seeing. High quality players and you just realize just how unbelievably skillful they are when you see them

[00:47:14] up that close. 

[00:47:16] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: Yeah. annoyingly skillful actually, because I, Alex Noron, who's one of our players, stayed back with Pete Cowan, who's obviously a very, um, well known coach, giving some short game tips. And I thought I'd wait to the end to see if I could do what they were doing. And I couldn't, and I just realized they're pretty good at what they do.

[00:47:35] And it just made me a little bit depressed about my game. So I'm going to continue to practice. So one day I can.

[00:47:40] Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: Yeah. Yeah. So say all of us. Listen, Ben, thanks a lot for your time. Really appreciate it.

[00:47:44] Ben Sharpe, Callaway Golf: Great pleasure.