UP417 Wedge Issues - Rick Shiels Exclusive

For millions of people, Rick Shiels' YouTube channel is how we watch golf in 2024.
Shiels is our very special guest today.
He started by uploading golf tips to YouTube 12 years ago to attract people to the Trafford Golf Centre in Manchester.
Now there are 900 golf channels on the platform, but only one Rick Shiels, with more than 3 million combined subscribers whose videos have attracted more than three quarters of a billion video views.
So this is a conversation about how we watch and consume sport today and the questions that creators like Rick Shiels are posing for sport's traditional media and event rights holders.

This episode is sponsored by Leaders In Sport.   Leaders in Sport connects the most influential people and the most powerful ideas in global sport to catalyse discussion, and drive the industry forward.

Through a series of global summits in North America, Europe, Asia and the Middle East, invitation-only memberships and long form content, Leaders in Sport provides professional executives, both on and off the field, with access to a community of peers to share best practice and trends that are shaping the future of sport.

Their flagship event, Leaders Week London, returns from 14 to 17 October, with The Summit taking place at Twickenham Stadium hosting the most senior executives from over 40 countries, including over 100 brands.

We'll be there, and you should join us.

Visit leadersinsport.com/UP for more information and use UP15 for a 15% discount on your Summit passes.

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Transcript

0:00

Hello, you're listening to wedge issues and Unofficial Partner production. I'm Richard Gillis.

Rick Shiels: 0:05

If they had to shut down a platform tomorrow, it would be Twitter would be my first choice and for me it wouldn't make a difference. It'd probably make my life a little bit easier if I'm honest with you. I feel like it always has been, but it's just a bit of a assessed pool of negativity. And I do think it's got worse. I think since Elon Musk has taken it over it's become X and it's, it's much less filtered.

0:29

That's the voice of our guests today, Rick Shiels, one of the most popular YouTube creators. Not just in golf, but on YouTube more generally, he has got millions of followers, far more than most golf players and the tours themselves. And for many people has changed how we watch and consume golf content. He started filming golf tips on his iPhone, uploading them to YouTube in a bit to attract more golfers for tuition at the Trafford golf center in Manchester, 12 years later, he's a global star. With 3 million combined subscribers and videos that have attracted more than three-quarters of a billion video views. So this is a conversation about how we watch and consume sport today. And the questions that creators like Rick shores are posing for sports, traditional media and event rights holders.

Rick Shiels: 1:12

I've been making YouTube content for 12 years now. And when I first started, there was, handful of creators, probably three or four creators. Now there's, 900 golf YouTube channels right now. And the viewer has got more of a voice. They know what they want to watch a bit more. And over time, like my, our big. Me and the team, our big kind of mantra was we want to provide the audience with something they didn't know they wanted to watch. Whether that's a fun, engaging video, whether that's a wacky, illegal golf club, they didn't even know existed, whether that's a match with a certain player, whether that's to go and play. A really out there, super, super cheap hidden golf course that no one's ever heard about. Also potentially go and play in one of the world's most exclusive golf clubs that not many people in the world ever get a chance to play. So, we try and vary the content as much as possible and we do listen to viewers, definitely. But we also try and kind of have our own style to the videos and make sure we're making content that engages us and makes us feel good. You know, the content that we want to make.

2:18

This episode of wedge issues is sponsored by leaders in sport. Leaders in sport connects the most influential people and the most powerful ideas in global sport to catalyze discussion. And drive the industry forward. Through a series of global summits in north America, Europe, Asia, and the middle east. Invitation only memberships and long form content. Leaders in sport provides professional executives, both on and off the field with access to a community of peers to share best practice and trends that are shaping the future of sport. Their flagship event leaders. We London returns from the 14th to the 17th of October. We're the summit taking place at Twickenham stadium hosting the most senior executives from across 40 countries, including over 100 brands. We'll be there and you should join us. So visit leaders in sport.com stroke up for more information and use up 15 for a 15% discount on your summit passes.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 3:24

I saw you at the open. It's really interesting watching you at the open how was it for you? First of all, cause you were sort of doing stuff with sky and the RNA. You were, it appeared to be sort of, Well in there

Rick Shiels: 3:33

Yeah, it's funny. I've, I've been to many open championships now and it's my favourite, one of my, you know, my favourite tournaments, that, and the Masters, and over the last few years I've worked it and I've. Been different elements of working it in 2018. I was very much involved and probably did a bit too much. And then this year I've got, I've struck a really nice balance where I felt like I was nicely involved doing some interviews and being part of the the team there, but also having enough off time to go and play. I actually played four rounds of golf that week. So it was a nice balance.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 4:07

I was watching on the range and there is a difference when you turn up when other got, and then there's golfers, so golfers are around and then you come and I think fans find you much more familiar, much more relatable, so the cameras come out. Or the phones come out. Do you notice that?

Rick Shiels: 4:24

Maybe, you know, maybe we're a bit more, I'm a bit more approachable or, you know, I'm not there playing in a major tournament, you know, and for me, it's a bit of a, I've got time to chat to fans and chat to people who are watching where obviously players, they have a strict schedule. And their main focus is they're there to play golf and to win a major tournament. So I think the fact that I've got a bit more free time, I've got no, you know, I've got obligations, but they're not set in stone. I think fans certainly will be more willing to kind of ask for a picture or, you know, ask for a bit of a chit chat, which is always really nice. I love catching up with fans who watch the channel because, you know, It makes it all very real. Sometimes on YouTube when you're just seeing numbers on a screen, it doesn't always feel super real. When you actually see fans and you hear stories, that's what makes it really really kind of hit home that you're you're hopefully doing a good job.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 5:16

when you're looking at the sort of back end of what you're doing, because obviously we're very familiar with the, you know, the. What do you look for? What's the bit that you're, you know, if you're looking at data, you're looking at feedback, what's your first number that you go to?

Rick Shiels: 5:35

Probably true for revenue. I think no, in fairness, more more recently, I've I've actually deleted all analytics from my, my, certainly from my phone, because it's very easy to get quite addicted to it. Yeah. And it's so easy to flick on the YouTube analytics and end up reading through comments or looking at data and looking at retention or click through rates that you get so much information where people are watching from what countries, how old they are. So, for me, I've been a little bit more conscious of not spending too much time into that. You know, I'll probably. Open my laptop maybe once a day and try and limit myself to five minutes and check up on the really important things. How the most recent video has been performing. What's the general consensus, what the views looking like, what the comments looking like, but that I'm really conscious to. Shut the tab and move on with my life because you could spend a couple of hours in there quite easily.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 6:39

does it impact the way you What you look to create and the sort of stuff that you look to put out. Is that the danger that you then become too led by that or become fixated by that?

Rick Shiels: 6:50

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And it's quite interesting actually. We've always, you know, I've been making YouTube content for 12 years now. And when I first started, there was, handful of creators, probably three or four creators. Now there's, 900 golf YouTube channels right now. And the viewer has got more of a voice. They know what they want to watch a bit more. And over time, like my, our big. Me and the team, our big kind of mantra was we want to provide the audience with something they didn't know they wanted to watch. So we always, you know, a bit like Apple's theory with Steve Jobs, you know, his idea was to make product that people didn't know they needed. Who knew they needed Face ID or Fingerprint ID or Apple Pay or, you know, all of these things. Nobody knew we wanted that. But I think once now, you know, on, on YouTube, it's this idea. Well, what's, what does the viewer not know they want to see? So whether that's a fun, engaging video, whether that's a wacky, illegal golf club, they didn't even know existed, whether that's a match with a certain player, whether that's to go and play. A really out there, super, super cheap hidden golf course that no one's ever heard about. Also potentially go and play in one of the world's most exclusive golf clubs that not many people in the world ever get a chance to play. So, we try and vary the content as much as possible and we do listen to viewers, definitely. But we also try and kind of have our own style to the videos and make sure we're making content that engages us and makes us feel good. You know, the content that we want to make.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 8:26

It's interesting how over that time, I was going to ask you what the key changes have been. And one of the things I've noticed is that the mainstream television, so Sky and you know, in the States, they have gravitated to the sorts of stuff that you're doing. They're doing more of that. They're moving towards you in a way that. I found is quite interesting. Because you've been doing it for so long and you've created this audience that's changing the way in which they're presenting the game. You know, it's not just the tours. It's not just about high performance. There is something else going on here as well.

Rick Shiels: 8:58

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 8:58

Do you think, do you notice that

Rick Shiels: 9:00

I do, but I also notice it the other way, truth be told. So yes, I do believe mainstream media and have been for a long time understanding social media and the impacts of social media and certainly YouTube and I think a lot of mainstream media have done a great job at embracing it, probably difficult at first for them, but they've realized we've got to embrace it. And I think the big thing that I've noticed is that, you know, there's a lot more live golf now being featured on YouTube. You know, whether that's even from the PGA tour, whether that's from the DP world tour and obviously live on YouTube. So that's great for the platforms. It's bringing more golfers into YouTube, which is great anyway. But the other thing I think. I think YouTubers have also taken a huge, a lot, a huge amount of inspiration from the mainstream media, because if you watch a YouTube video now, it's sometimes hard to think that this is filmed as a YouTube video because the camera quality is fantastic. The traces are on there, like the TV, the score graphics, the drone footage. To some degree, we've YouTubers have kind of taken inspiration from TV, but. Just done it in a very different way to enhance the experience for the viewer. So I think it's both ways, really. I think they are definitely coming closer together. And I think mainstream media have realized they needed to get closer together. Otherwise they were potentially at risk of I don't want to say kind of being dominated by social media, but it was definitely going that way. I think they've, I think they've been very clever in the tactics.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 10:36

It's interesting that, so that sort of coming together because YouTube is now, it's a TV channel essentially, I watch it on the big screen. in a way that it used to be different. And it's a funny one on YouTube because it's, I've talked about this before, we've done, you know, we do a lot about the rights market in television and, where the money's coming from. Now they've been there for so long that people don't realize just what a central player they are in the whole scheme of things. And, you know, in the States, obviously you've got NFL on there. it's grown into over that period of time that you've been working on it. into something else, isn't it? I'm wondering what that does to the cost base for you guys, because the expectations of becoming, you're not just filming on a phone and it's on, and I'm going to watch it and I'm going to make accommodations because it's, you know, I'm accepting the production levels are going to be lower than they are on telly. Now I'm expecting Rickshaws There's a TV crew. What does that do for the sort of back end of your business?

Rick Shiels: 11:32

Yeah, I mean, you can't get away with the same sorts, the same quality of footage that we would have released six or seven years ago. You just can't get away with that now, you know, so all our cameras are really, high end cameras. I'd like to say what they are, I don't know, because, you know, when I first started, I knew everything about the cameras and I knew everything about, you know, I'd film a lot of it on my iPhone, etc. Now, when we turn up to a shoot, you know, I've got three camera men pretty much on every single shoot. We've got a big drone, a little drone, we've got gimbals, we've got different lenses, and it's, very different, you know, all the audio checks, we have an audio pack, because one, we can't afford now to to film and it not be the right quality. We're back in the day. Let's say I went out for a day's filming and lo and behold, my microphone wasn't working all day. That happened many times when I first started and it's frustrating and it's annoying and you, kick yourself. But the end of the day, it's not the end of the world. Tomorrow I'll make the same videos again. It doesn't matter. Where now that can't happen, you know, we have to make content and it has to be good. And if there's an audio issue, it has to be resolved or it can't ever happen. Like this, they can't ever be an audio issue. It can't ever be an issue where the footage is corrupt or anything like that. Because it just, it costs too much money now to do that. You know, if I'm taking three cameramen. We've just come back from Ireland yesterday and if, you know, let's say the last day of the video, it was really terrible weather the last day and we're like, what are we going to do? How are we going to film? We're like, well, we kind of, we've budgeted this that we need to film a video today. Now, thankfully the weather improved dramatically in an hour or so and we actually filmed a brilliant video. It'll come out great. But we're also very conscious. We see this on YouTube. How many people now like yourself watch on TV? So, you can't watch a shaky camera on TV. It's not, it makes you seasick. Like, I'm watching on TV now, it has to be on a gimbal, it has to be 4K, the colours have to be brilliant, the audio has to be fantastic. So, all of those factors now have to be top level. Because, again, people watching on their phones, watching on iPads, watching on laptops, watching on TVs, the experience has to be really good. That's all. So yeah, it's definitely, we spend a lot more money on production now, but we do also feel like it's paid dividends because more people are watching the video. So it's, you know, it. It's a cost worth making.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 14:10

So how big is sort of Rick Shields Inc? how many people do you have? What does this look like?

Rick Shiels: 14:15

Well, we've just, so just extended the team quite a lot this year. So we're up to 14 members of staff and team. So, that's a mixture of production crew. So I've got three production crew, I've got three main channel editors. I've got two social media editors. I've got a head of business development and strategy, a brand manager, a full time accountant, an e commerce manager. An office manager you know, it's, we've got offices in Salford in Manchester and we've actually just extended the size of our office. We just moved into a brand new one, which we've had built. So it's a nice collaborative space. And I'll be honest, more recently, I've walked into that room just in the last few weeks and gone. Whoa, there's a lot of people here now. And you know, we just had a media call at the start of this. Every Friday at nine o'clock, we have a media call. Back in the day, there was three or four faces on a screen. And now the screen isn't big enough. Like I have to make the tiles smaller, but it's. One, because we want a future proof. We want to continue the growth of the channel. We want to extend into new markets. We want to tap into. E commerce. We want to look at what's the next business development. You know, is that a, I don't want to give too much away, but there's lots of things in the pipelines of the business outside of the world of media and also then the editors of the biggest feedback is editors would, I used to have one editor and he used to release three videos a week, but he was basically killing himself to do it. I was like, well, actually that's good. The feedback from the editors is if they get more time to edit a video, they can make it better. So we could release three videos a week with one editor, but the quality wouldn't be as good. So we'd need three editors to release three videos. So basically they have a video each themselves. But then we've also got three channels. So I've got the main channel which is the longest serving 12 years of making YouTube content on the main channel over 2000 videos. I've got a podcast channel, which has done 260 odd episodes. Now the podcast got the hit channel, which our review channel, which has been going live for a year, then got Facebook, which is a huge platform for us. It does. Brilliant Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, Snapchat you know, all of those other platforms now which need content going onto it, you know, it's moved away from just being a YouTube channel. Now, you know, it, you have to be multifaceted. Multi platform and kind of going back to your point earlier, if someone's going to see a video from me or from my team, it has to have a certain level to it. For me, you know, it has to be as best as it can possibly be. So that's why we, you know, employ the best members of staff who, in my opinion, make the best quality content.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 16:58

And do you treat each channel, social channel differently? So is TikTok something that you have a particular tone of voice or a particular product that you say, okay, well, that's an important channel in and of its own right, in the same way as Instagram or whatever, there are different, there are nuances, you're putting different stuff out.

Rick Shiels: 17:16

Definitely. Yeah. So to go through kind of the breakdown, obviously the main channel is for the real premium content, the main YouTube channel, three videos a week. And we really try and, you know, that's where we release the best. The premium content on the podcast channel is obviously podcasts like yourself do, you know, it's a topical, we talk about what's happened that week, we have guests on, we do interviews, we release the main length video, but also release a couple of key clips from that podcast. On the hit channel, which is just reviews only aiming to release kind of two to three reviews each week on that channel. Facebook is a brilliant platform for us. Not enough people have tapped into Facebook in my opinion. We release shorter form content on there. Sometimes it's edited version of the premium content. Sometimes it's original three minute content that sits on there. Instagram it's. It's a bit more of kind of a, not behind the scenes, but a bit more personal to me. So I, you know, I'll release, if I'm in a nice place, I'll put a selfie on there or take a picture of my hotel room, or, you know, I'll show my family every now and again you know, I'll tell people where I am or what videos are about to come up or whatever. But also we release the trailers of the videos. We release. It's just a nice fan engagement on Instagram and on Twitter, I don't love Twitter. Twitter's probably my least favorite platform or X as it's now called, which I still can't ever kind of get my head around. But that's obviously topical. It's, you know, if something happened in the golfing world, it's easy to jump on Twitter and have an opinion or make a

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 18:56

I agree with you on Twitter and Twitter is becoming more problematic as it, as we go on a lot of people are saying, well, actually, this is not just a, you know, a personal thing. There's a lot of corporates now saying, well, hang on a week. Can we fund this anymore? This is going in a direction that is just quite there. What would happen if you sort of said right now, we're not going to do Twitter anymore? So

Rick Shiels: 19:19

It wouldn't have a smidge of influence on our business. If Twitter, if I, if they had to shut down a platform tomorrow, it would be Twitter would be my first choice and for me it wouldn't make a difference. It'd probably make my life a little bit easier if I'm honest with you. I, it's just a, I feel like it always has been, but it's just a bit of a assessed pool of negativity. And I do think it's got worse. I think since Elon Musk has taken it over, it's become X and it's much less filtered. I think it's become a lot worse. It's not a platform I spend a lot of time on. I don't have it on my phone. You know, I actually currently don't have any social media on my phone, but it's the one that I almost forget about really, and then TikTok I don't have, I personally don't go on TikTok, but my Joe and Leo who work on my social team that, that's very different. You know, I feel a bit like I'm too old. TikTok, if I'm honest with you, you know, it's, but it, but the content we release on there is really digestible content, 15, 30 second clips, minutes, if we sometimes can. It's fun. It's engaging. It's to get more kids into golf. Like it's there. It serves a purpose. It brings in a little bit of a revenue, but nothing groundbreaking. I think it's got potential to do really well. If you're one of these channels, you can pull in 10 million views at a video. I think it's a great platform. I, but it's fun. I don't take it too seriously. Some videos do great. Some videos don't do great, but it's fun. It kind of just serves a purpose.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 20:51

marketing channel rather than a revenue jet. So YouTube is the central revenue model for the business remains. That's because it's a, there is a tangible way of making money directly from the content.

Rick Shiels: 21:03

correct. And similar with Instagram you know, there is a way of making revenue very small, similar to TikTok, but it's a marketing channel. It's a way of getting people to connect with me and the brand a bit more. It's reaching new audiences because that is definitely something that happens on TikTok. If we put a video there and it goes viral, and we've had a few that have gone viral, you can tell by the comments, they're not golfers, but that's not a bad thing. Like if non golfers, Of, Oh, who was that bearded fellow that did that wacky thing with the golf club? And the next thing they're on YouTube and, Oh, there's that bearded fella again. Let me watch a bit of that. And then suddenly they're watching another video. So it's just it's the funnel effects, like the TikTok and Instagram are the top of the funnel. And as it comes, we want to funnel people down into the main channel. Really. That's kind of where our bread and butter is. Facebook is different. Facebook is a marketing channel, but it's own, you know, Very serious media platform in its own right. You know, if Facebook shut down tomorrow, that would have a negative effect on our business from a financial standpoint. But the other platforms, it would have an effect, but not as much revenue, just more marketing.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 22:15

It's interesting. I was talking to Ben Sharp, who you know, as a new, he was at TaylorMade, he's now MD of Callaway. He's been doing a lot of marketing. Just come on the podcast recently. And we were talking about what works from their point of view. So looking at the same question, looking at people like yourself, when we mentioned you as a, you know, as the top of the heap in terms of the golf creator landscape and how that then compares in terms of, you know, Well, he's selling clubs and balls and clothes and you know, he's, they're central obviously to the golf economy, but we're using them, we're using them as a way in to say, what's the health of the game more generally. And so you are now a much more, a viable option in terms of, Traditionally, the money from club manufacturers went to players, and then it still does, obviously. And he's had, he had Xander Chauvelet winning the Open, you know, Callaway, Kapan, you know, playing the ball. And so it's a great opportunity for him. But we were talking about how that is shifted and how it's going to shift. going forward in terms of the, you know, the types of channels, essentially. What do you think about that? What type of conversations do you have? I'm not asking you to talk about Callaway specifically, but it was just, it struck me as if that's changing the model for them. And I wonder how that looks

Rick Shiels: 23:32

Carlos. Yeah, I think just for viewers who just to preface something just for viewers my relationship with Ben Sharp predominantly came from Top Tracer. So when he was the head of Top Tracer, and obviously now he's with Callaway, I don't have much of a dealing with him. But yeah, I think if I was a If I was a company, an OEM, if I was a, you know, big mainstream company, I would certainly be looking at social media creators for brand awareness. It's guaranteed, it's measured, it's somewhat controllable, you I could guarantee next month. To a certain degree within 10 percent of how many views I'm going to get on the main channel. And it's like, well, that's guaranteed. If you want a brand, and I'm not saying me personally, I don't say club manufacturer brand, but I'm sponsored by Lyle and Scott clothing, Echo footwear. You know, I can say to Echo next month, you're going to get 12 million views. And every single one of those views, I'm going to wear an Echo footwear. I don't think many tour pros can guarantee that. You know, just because it depends how well they're playing. Now Xander winning the Open, that far eclipses 12 million I'm sure, but he has to go and win the Open for that. The guy who they're sponsoring who misses the court, he's getting zero airtime, like zero, unless you're Rory McIlroy or Scottish Effley you're getting, or Tiger Woods, you're getting zero airtime if you're a, if you're a Callaway player that's missed the court typically. So I think that's the biggest shift as But, you know, it's, It depends on what a brand is trying to do. If it's awareness, if it's alignment, if it's selling products, I think content creators are brilliant for that. If it's to, to sponsor a player, to entertain a corporate golf event, I think there's a few content creators that could bring some value. And I'd like to think I'm potentially one of those, but it'd be much more impressive to bring Zonda Chauffeur and the Claret Jug to a corporate golf event. You know, so to some degree, or even let's say for example, not Zander, because obviously he's won two majors this year, but let's say Callaway still sponsored Phil Mickelson for argument's sake. Having Phil Mickelson at a Callaway corporate event is very powerful. You know, that's, you know, that a lot of business takes place there. So, or, you know, being able to utilize a Phil Mickelson for a pro am partnership, where you bring in three key accountants. For the customers potentially of Callaway. So, and that goes with any brand. You you look at a lot of. A lot of tour pros are sponsored by not only manufacturers, but often quite unique brands like Workday are a huge sponsor of tour professionals. You've got like, Matt Fitzpatrick having Workday on his hat. I didn't even know what Workday was, but they're not really trying to target me or you. It's more that alignment. With a high end tour professional who's won a major, and if they've then tried to convince a key account of Workday, Oh, why don't you come for a nice little golf day, and bang, here's Matt Fitzpatrick with the US Open trophy, and it's like, wow, this is So it's very different. I think it's a place with both. I think Torq Pro is still definitely going to get sponsored. Certainly if you add value, I think for the lesser known Torq Pros that might get a bit harder unless you know, you come firing out the gates and you're a superstar straight from the off. But I think for a lot of brands, if you want guaranteed eyeballs. On your brand, on your product, on whatever that may be, YouTubers, social media creators is somewhat of a guarantee because you can control it.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 27:21

It's always an interesting question about how many golfers sell tickets or how many golfers sell clubs. And, Again, there is two, there's a game being played that there's the Chauffele example that you've just articulated perfectly there. You've also got the other game that's about club counts on tour, just the ubiquity of various brands and Callaway, TaylorMade, Ping, Titanis. The worry from their point of view, they sort of know that most players aren't. Selling clubs for them on mass. If they stop that game, they come off the tours, then they're worried about disappearing. They're worried about mental availability of, you know, amongst golfers generally, and that sort of race to being in the consideration set of buying clubs. And that sort of marketing psychology game that gets played is quite interesting. So there's your argument. And I think. is really, it's interesting and they'll do, they always say, Oh, we'll do both. But your measurability is really central. It's also, there's something else in the brand. It's not performance. It's entertainment and relatability. Whereas they're talking about high performance. Bryson DeChambeau is a really interesting mix at the moment of you and A tour pro. He's doing it it's a sort of interesting case study. What do you, what's your view of what's happening with him? Cause something's happening.

Rick Shiels: 28:47

He's doing incredible. He's doing so, so good. And you know what? I always, for 12 years of making YouTube content, I feel like we've had a fairly. Straightforward ride. It's been, it's, you know, it's been fairly straightforward. I've had competitors, but it's, it's all been fun. It's, It's, I always did honestly feel like at some point a tour pro is going to come into this space and do really well. Now, I didn't know who that tour pro was going to be. When I was kind of, obviously doing it early days, I always felt like someone like an Ian Ter would've done really well on YouTube or someone with character, someone who is good on camera. And it, for me, it wasn't a matter of if it was a matter of when someone was gonna do. And I think with Bryson and his time and his availability now being so much more flexible and the fact that he's not as concerned about Money, obviously. I think he's in that real nice sweet spot where he's got the time to make YouTube content. He loves YouTube and YouTube content. You know, even when I look back at messages from when when he was growing, you know, kind of coming up through the ranks, I had really early messages off him saying he watched the channel and things like this. I always knew that he he was a consumer of YouTube content and I think that's really important. I think if you're going to do well on YouTube, you have to be a consumer of YouTube content. And then he featured in videos and he he was good. And I think he also had a bit of a point to prove. I think his brand image wasn't as strong as he would like to it There was negativity around him, in him as a person. And I think He had nothing to lose, everything to win, loads of time. He's not doing it for money, let's be honest, he's not, he's doing it for passion. His argument, he's doing it to grow the game, which I can see, I can, you know, I don't like people who say that massively, I, you know, I'm doing it to grow the game, but I do think some of his views recently, I mean, have been absolutely astronomical. I think he's my biggest threat now of overtaking me on YouTube. But at the end of the day, I felt like it it was always coming. It was a matter of time, as I said. And I had a really good chat with him at the Open, actually. And he I kind of joked with him and said, Oh you're supposed to be a bloody tour pro, like stay out of YouTube. And he actually said something and it annoyed me because this is my, this has always been my opinion all the way through YouTube. And I kind of caught myself off guard, really. And he turned around and said, Listen, rising tides rise all ships. And I've, I've used that quote a million times in my YouTube career, and maybe just a bit of guilt, or not guilt, a bit of jealousy, I was like, oh you shouldn't be in my, you shouldn't be over here. But in hindsight, once he said that, I kind of walked away, I was like, of course. Like, it's only good, it's only good, like, his videos are bringing in, like, his Donald Trump one has brought in 12 million views, the one he did with John Bailey two days ago has brought in four, three million views, unbelievable views, like, solid, like, ridiculous, great views for YouTube, nevermind YouTube golf, great views for just YouTube alone, well great, again, going back to that funnel analogy, At one point, because I've done videos with Bryson's been on my channel, I've been on his. If he's bringing in more subscribers from different walks of life, suddenly they watch his videos and they go, Oh, who's this bearded fella that he's playing with? Oh, Rick. He's from England. All right. I didn't go on to my channel and go, Oh, he actually has quite a lot of good content. I'll subscribe to him as well while I'm here. So. It's one of those things I think it was a matter of time, I think Bryson has done a great job, he really gets YouTube, him and his team really get YouTube, which I think is important, I think his personality has massively shone through. I think his personality has changed think he's softened a little bit. And again he's not doing it for money. I do think the best content comes from that kind of just making great content. Like, I know I joked at the start of this call about analytics and it's the first thing I look at, but the best videos are the best videos that you're doing it for because it's going to be a great video. And great videos come with great views and inevitably does make more money, but it's like you're doing it because you're making a great video. So I think Bryson, like he's making great videos. It's doing a super job. He's got the time, he's got the resources, he's got the money, he's got the private jet to fly around and make all this great content. I think it's great, honestly, and I can't wait to see his growth. It's driving us, it's making us ask questions of our content and going, well, if that's now the gold standard, need to be up there, if not bettering it. So I think it's, a bit of competition, albeit, like I say, it's competition, but it's not. It's, I think it's only good for the platform.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 34:04

Yeah. Sort of growing the category and and as you say, I do think there is something that is going on brand wise as well, from his point of view, he's gone from a sort of, a bit of a sulky presence or a there's that arrogance, there's that sort of brattish bit. which is, it feels he's more likeable and whether that's, he's made a conscious effort to do that, or whether it's just the platform has done that. Maybe it's sort of, it's allowed him, it's not filtered.

Rick Shiels: 34:28

I think the platform, I also just think he's in a great spot in his life. I do like he's in every major. He's the talk of the town which that's what he loves to be. He's still winning majors. He's winning golf events on live. He's shooting a 58, you know, I think he's just loving life. And, you know, as much as that might not be his, you know, envisioned pathway of what he probably set out to be when he first became a PGA tour pro. The fact that now he's got more money than he ever possibly needs. He's in a great spot with his golf game. He's still winning majors. He's not doing as much tinkering or messing about, you know, he's kind of been through that development. Yeah, I, my fear for Bryson is that He is someone who very much likes to experiment and experience and push the boundaries and I suppose YouTube is his kind of baby at the moment. It's going okay. Well, let's let's push this and what about if I did this And what about if I had Donald Trump? I mean, geez, nobody thought about having Donald Trump in a golf YouTube video He went out and did it, you know What does that look like? Because he always wants to push the boundaries and I think whatever his kind of pathway into pushing the boundaries of golf YouTube is gonna really change the game over the next few years.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 35:54

What you said you, you've got a fear for him. What's the worry?

Rick Shiels: 35:56

My fear, sorry, is that he, and it's, it's kind of a weird fear. is that because he's very, he goes off on these kind of tangents and really tries to like increase the speed, increase the speed, increase the speed. And you thought that was the only thing he was ever going to do. He's going into long drive, he's doing this. I feel like my fear with YouTube is kind of going to get to a point and go, okay, kind of done with it now. I've kind of, I'm the most subscribed, I'm the most viewed, you know, every video I release is 10 million. Yeah, I'll just leave that now. what's my next kind of adventure? It might not be, it might not be the case, but that certainly seems like he very, it goes all in on one thing, doesn't it, from what we've seen, finds the answer, and then go, okay, I'm going to move somewhere else now, move direction.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 36:45

You mentioned there about the time and, you know, obviously the live thing, one of the complaints, going back to Mickelson talking about, you know, the amount of, space and digital inventory they got on the PGA tour. And that was, you know, it was about money, but it was also, there was some interesting sort of subplots there. What do you make of Live in terms of just as a product? And we should say, I you should explain what, cause 54, you're, are you part owned by them or you've got a collaboration with them? And obviously they're related to Live.

Rick Shiels: 37:16

Yeah, so my, I, was one of their first ever partners back in about seven or eight years ago. So way before Liv me, it's really interesting with Liv. I feel like it's a Product.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 37:33

I've got to say that I don't love it. We had Sean Bratches on the podcast. He was one of the architects of the thing and initially, and then he left in the early days. My, my feeling was, I like the idea of it. I don't love the execution of it.

Rick Shiels: 37:47

Yeah, I feel on the ground as a sporting event. I've been to two now. I went to Centurion last year. I went to JCB this year. I think it's an experience on the ground. I think it's brilliant. And going back to that opening, opening the funnel, it's a very different product to the Open. So different. You go to the Open and you arrive at seven o'clock in the morning. If you're a hardcore golf fan and you will sit on on the grandstands, come rain or shine, and you'll watch 12 hours of solid golf. Some golfers you won't have ever known or ever heard of, or maybe never see again. And sometimes you'll see golfers that you obviously, really high profile golfers that you can't wait to see. And I think as a golf purist, I think that's certainly ticks a lot of boxes. I think the risk of that is that if you go on a Saturday or Sunday, there is a risk you will not see the golfer that you want to see. If you wanted to go and see Rory McElroy at the open, you wouldn't have seen him on a Saturday or Sunday. So I think that as a risk from a consumer, and it's very rare you get that in any other sport. You know, if if you are a sports fan and you go to sports event bar, maybe knock out events like you can never guarantee he's gonna be in the final Wimbledon, obviously. But if you wanted to go watch Andy Murray, you'd have to go, you know, not anymore, obviously he's retired, but a certain tennis player, you'd have to go around that they're obviously in. So for me, one of the advantages as a fan for Live is that you will see Bryson, you will see John Rahm, you will see Phil Mickelson, you will see Cam Smith, because guaranteed they're not missing the cut. So if you go Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you will see them. I think the other advantage is a sporting event. I took a few friends of mine at the last Live As well as actually all my team that went with me as well. And my mates were texting me in the WhatsApp group going, right guys, what time are we getting there? About eight o'clock? And I said, well, I said, it's an open till 12. And they were like, what? I said, well, it's a shotgun start. And they were like, what do you mean? And considering they were such golf purists and friends of mine, similar age to me, really loved the golf. They had no concept of, of live really, ins and outs of it all. So they went and played golf that morning. They then moseyed on up to JCB in there at 12 o'clock, gone to the driving range watched every tour pro they wanted to see, from DJ to Brooks to Phil Mickelson to John Rahm, et cetera, et cetera. They got to see him straight away. We then we. And we're in the kind of hospitality behind the 16th hole and they sat there all day and they got to watch, I say all day, for four and a half hours and they got to see shots from every single one of their key players that they wanted to see. And after four and a half hours it was over and everyone left and it was like, to some degree, I felt like I wanted more. I felt like it finished a bit early. So as an event on site, I I think it's got a lot of advantages. I think at the moment I don't feel like the broadcast does it much justice. I think it's a lot of golf going on at a lot of times. I think the team elements need to be improved. Personally for me, I feel like every team should be attached to a country or a location because if you look at the Rippers have got a hard core fan base because it's four Australian fellas and it's the Australian team done. And one of my employees called Ben, who's Australian. We went to live and it wasn't even, when he went into the merch shop, he just had a beeline straight for the Rippers merch and he bought a hat, he bought a bucket hat, he bought whatever because it made so much sense. I think where it's finding hard for fans at the moment, unless you've got really strong alignment to a brand, to a, to a player, sorry, how do you pick a team? Well, I can't pick a team, you know, in theory. Us being from the kind of UK, England, we really should probably support the Majestics. Because there's three of those guys who are, you know, you've got Ian Poulter, Lee Westwood and Sam Horsfield who are English, but then you've got Henry Stenson who's Swedish. So it's like, well, they're kind of not quite the English team. The other team that are doing it quite well are the Stingers, which are all the South African players. mean, you could easily have a Spanish team. Like you could have now Sergio Garcia and John Rahm and Ortiz, though I think he's Mexican, but like you you could have a Spanish team. So I think if you, if they nailed the teams and it was a given who we support, almost, we didn't get a choice. If the Majestics team became four English golfers or UK We would almost feel like we had to support that team like the Rippers do in Australia. And I think if they nailed that and they get people to understand the venues better, the teams better, the players better, I think it could really succeed. It's been three years now and I think it's, I don't think they've convinced the purist yet, but again, going to a live event,, it's a very different crowd. And going back to my analogy before about the differences between YouTube and TikTok, it's still content, it's still golf content, but they are two very different audiences. And I think that's how we kind of need to see Live DP World Tour. It's golfers playing golf in a tournament, yes, but it's two very different offerings. I

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 43:38

It's interesting about the questions it asks of the tours and the, the golf format that we grew up with, the, you know, four days, every week is the same, you've got this. a large player base that they have to accommodate every week. And again it's why that hasn't innovated. And so it's taken live to, to get them to start to question, how they present the game. I think it's also elevated the majors. So you've got this upper tier, which again, this is a sports business podcast. So commercially, you know, the media rights, the sponsorship value of the open and the masters and, you know, US and PGA, you can only imagine that's been elevated over time. So, because it's just, they've given them a piece of white space. They're selling history, whereas Live and the Tours are now just Competing on money and I dunno, it's it's not a great spectacle from my point of view, just, you know, how much money they can generate to raise from private equity or from Saudi to just bung at golfers. I think that's it doesn't feel sustainable, but it also doesn't, I don't warm to it, let's put it that way.

Rick Shiels: 44:49

what will be very interesting over the next few months and years is that if the PGA Tour products and viewing figures have shown it to dip a little bit, not massively dip a little bit, I think it's just going to take either a headline PGA Tour sponsor to take. Go, you know value am I getting now? Potentially, not saying that's the case, or it might be a total different brand who don't sponsor anything in the world of golf. Let's say a Red Bull, like Red Bull, it might, I don't, from what I know, don't sponsor anything golf today.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 45:20

They don't. They used to. They had a, they came in with the 15th hole thing, didn't they? But they, that was years ago. Yeah.

Rick Shiels: 45:26

If let's say Red Bull went, you know what, there's a market here that we're not tapping into this, this new wave of young. Golfers, etc, young adults or whatever. And Red Bull say, I'll tell you what, I want to sponsor a team. So it's now, I want to sponsor Bryson's team and they become the Red Bull Crushers. I think once you get one domino falling in that space, I think every single team becomes sponsored. You get the Red Bull Crushers, you get the Vodafone. Believe rippers, that doesn't quite work, but whatever. I dunno why I use Vodafone as an example, but I think, you know, I think as soon as you get one big brand coming in, sponsoring an event, and again, going back to my point earlier, like why do companies go and sponsor us and the shuffle or, or the Matt Fitzpatrick, because at one of their events, if they can bring one of those tour pros to an event it helps with. business, as you know. So suddenly then the Red Bull crushes. They do a big event, they make loads of social media content, they invite a load of key account holders, or, you know, whatever it may be, they might be wanting to get into every Walmart in America. I I don't know enough about that, their strategy, but suddenly then you've got Bryson DeChambeau and the Crushers turn it up. And it's like, that plays a big part. So I do think there is, I think when once I think brands are scared to jump I think that's where it will take someone like a Red Bull to go. I'm not bothered about upsetting the PGA tour. I'm not bothered about setting up the DP. Let's go. And they'll jump in and kind of. Take ownership of it really. So, I think coming to the sustainability model again, if you've been, I don't think the viewing, I don't think the ticket sales are as high as they'd like it to be. Yeah, I think if that increased, there's a possibility. And I do think once you get five or six real big sponsors getting involved, I think it will be a sustainable model.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 47:29

Yeah. Yeah. so you've got the TGL as well. You know, you've got teams that are developing around there and you can see the aspiration and it's a sort of Formula One, IPL type, yeah. Model that they're trying to create team brands, which, you know, that for years and years, people have said, Oh, well, look at the Ryder Cup. Why don't we have team brands in golf? It's easier to get sponsors. They're easier to get investors, that sort of model. I can see the idea of it. And it might just be that we're in that period where. between one and the other. But there's definitely something there that's of interest. And it's, it's Quite hard to, you're right about the national bit because it's quite hard to generate fan interest in a, just a startup team brand, isn't it?

Rick Shiels: 48:11

Yeah. I mean, I, I've actually got a phone call this afternoon with TGL and you know, the concept is very interesting. I'd like to know more and see where that lands. But again, going back to like, you know, I, I love Tommy Fleetwood. Like Tommy Fleetwood's really good friend of mine. I absolutely love him. And he has signed, or he's gonna play with, lemme just double check this fact. Is it the LA team? I'm sure it's the LAT, yeah, Los Angeles Golf Club, kind of just doesn't make sense it's like, and I love Tommy, but like, the Los Angeles Golf Club has got Colin Morikawa on, don't know where he's from, but whether he's from Los Angeles or not, Tommy Fleetwood, obviously, English, Justin Rose, English, and then Fegala. I don't know where he's from, obviously in America, but it's like, doesn't make sense to me why they call it the Los Angeles Golf Club. Like, would, I mean, I actually don't know all the players in in the TGL that well, but would it not make sense? Let me see if I'm just bringing it up on the laptop. Sorry, one second. I just want to see, like, for example, could there not just be an English team? Like you could have Justin Rose, Matt Fitzpatrick. Tommy Fleetwood I suppose then you could maybe throw in Shane Lowry and then suddenly they're like, okay, well, that's my team. That's who I have to support. Do you know what I mean? Because the choice has been made for me where even having Roy McIlroy is part of Boston Common. It's like, what's the link there? How does that kind of work? And even, you know, Ricky Fowler. Playing for New York golf club. What's the link? I don't kind of get it. mean Tiger Woods is playing for Jupiter Link, which kind of makes a bit more sense because at least it lives in Jupiter, but yeah, I just, I think I don't know if TGL have learned enough from what lives in Jupiter. A lot of those potential downsides are for the teams. They couldn't, you know, if you rip up the team, you know, you can't do this, but if I, you know, if you're really trying to get a connection with the players and the teams, you'd rip up all the teams and go, right, they're all my players. What teams make sense? Rather than just putting four random people together, what teams actually make sense here? Well, that's an Australian team. Makes sense. South African team. Makes sense. Spanish team. Makes sense. Then, and then you could, you know, obviously there's a lot of American players go, well, they're all from the East Coast. Okay, that team makes sense. That's the East Coast, East Side team. Okay, they're all from the West Coast. Okay, that's the West Side team. That makes sense. Okay, funny enough, all these four players are from Texas. Brilliant. We've got a Texas team. I think that's kind of where it potentially needs to get to because I don't think, you know, I don't know if you're a football fan or not, but, you know, my, my team was

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 51:11

I'm a Spurs fan, I don't know if that counts.

Rick Shiels: 51:13

And what's the connection there? Is that because you were a London team? So, I mean, but, you know, At the end of the day, I'm a Manchester United fan. I was born and raised in Manchester. My family are all from Manchester. It makes sense. My team makes sense to me. Like, it's who I am. And that's my concern with some of these teams. But Americans do think different to that. Like, I know, like American, like ice hockey teams or football teams, they move. You Like they've moved states in the past. How the hell does that make sense? Imagine if Manchester United said, you know what guys, actually, we're actually going to move to London now because we think it's going to be better for ticket sales. It's like, what? How does that work? So, I don't know. just, there's a lot of positives for, for TGL and Live. I think what they're trying to do is, you know, has opened the funnel. I just think to really get connected to the team. Am I going to be, I'm a huge Tommy Fleetwood fan and Justin Rose. I didn't even know he played on that team. But am I going to be walking around with a Los Angeles golf club cap on? Probably not, because it just doesn't make sense to me. Where if they were the, I'm going to come up with a name now off the spot, but if they were like, you know, the English Roses, it's like, well that makes sense, or whatever, I don't know,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 52:41

There's a, there's also fans sort of, it's odd what happens to football fans when you get beyond the local area and, or even beyond the UK, you know, or in the, in terms of Premier League teams or football league teams. There is this idea that it's not, it's more than idea. It's a sort of business model that is the further away you get. So people in America, people in India or China, they have a different relationship with teams perhaps. And that's, you know, you can sort of see that predicated in some of these new brands. They're saying, well, actually they're, we're talking to a global audience, which is always going to be difficult, but they're trying to work out. Get some sort of story because they know that there's something if they can build a story that has, you know, look, we've got so many fans and I imagine that they, if they collate the social media numbers they start to claim those

Rick Shiels: 53:33

people could argue now and people have done when I've made this point in the past, like how many people players from Manchester play for Manchester United now? And I get that. I totally get that. But the history, the heritage, it's built in Manchester by Manchester people. Originally, the original team were all from Manchester. Now, yeah, we're going to sign players from all around the world, but. Like, I think that's where, even if at the first iteration of these teams, if the Rippers was this Australian team, right now it's got four Australian players, but at some point someone's going to drop out and it's going to get replaced, but you've put a flag in a location now, and in five years, you're only becomes one Australian player, two Americans and a Australia, a New Zealand fella playing in that team. It doesn't matter because the roots are there in Australia. It's an Australian team. yeah see how it all develops, but I mean, I'm intrigued. I'm excited. I think for the world of business, if that's kind of obviously your forte, I think we've never been in a more uncertain, but also quite exciting time.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 54:42

Absolutely. I think it's a good place to end. Cause I think I was going to ask you what you think the, it's almost impossible question about the health of the game, but it feels like, depending on who you talk to, we talked about Callaway and Sky, you know, the lens in the player numbers, postcode, but it all feels like there's a, I always say people would love golf's problems, you know, golf obsesses about new audiences growing the game, but actually there's a lot going right as well, isn't there?

Rick Shiels: 55:06

Yeah, I think, I certainly think so. I think there's a lot of positives. And I think as, again, we can, as much as we can open the funnel to the top, for me, I would like to change the description of how we count golfers. I think that if we change that, we don't have a problem. You know, golf isn't now Saturday morning playing 18 holes with, you know. Golf now is so different to that. Like I personally think if you've been to a top golf you've kind of played golf. If you've been to mini golf, I'd say you've played golf. I, you know, even VR headsets now, if you've had a chance to try those you are playing golf. It's different. It's new. And we don't quite know it yet. That is all golf and it's all good and it's all good for the game. And even to some degree, if you've consumed golf content, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that you're a golfer, but you're in our, this is, you're in this kind of bubble. Welcome, welcome to this kind of huge net of golf. And wherever you fall in this net up to you. Whether You are, you do become the Saturday afternoon player playing every single competition, or whether you play five times a year with you, with your buddies, or whether you go to the driving range three times a week, it's okay. You're a golfer. You're in our community and welcome and I enjoy it. And you do you in the world of golf because everyone's golf experience and a journey is very different to each other's.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner: 56:38

Nice. I like that. Listen, Rick, thanks a lot for your time. I know you're uber busy, so, uh, I'll let you, I'll let you get back to it.

Rick Shiels: 56:47

Appreciate it. Thanks so much.