What’s Trending? Methodist Clergy, Abortion Pill Laws, and Medical Residencies

How do the recent theological shifts within the United Methodist Church signal a transformative era for its clergy and congregations? Join us as we unpack the repeal of a 40-year-old ban on ordaining same-sex clergy with insights from Pastors Bob Fleischmann and Jeff Samelson. Together, we navigate the complex historical context, the emerging tensions between theological conservatives and progressives, and the pivotal role of international branches like those in Africa. We also delve into past experiences and statements from influential figures, shedding light on the ongoing struggle to reconcile differing beliefs and its potential impact on the church's unity and growth.

Also on the agenda, we tackle the controversial new legislation in Louisiana that classifies abortion pills as controlled dangerous substances. This move, aimed at curbing illicit use without penalizing legitimate medical practices, has profound implications. We discuss a compelling personal story that influenced the bill's sponsorship and highlight the concerns surrounding misuse in scenarios like sex trafficking. Linking this to the historical context of the Comstock Law, we examine the strategies used by pro-abortion advocates to challenge such legislation and ponder the broader societal ramifications, particularly on medical training for OBGYN residents in the South. Don't miss this critical discussion on timely issues that are shaping the landscape of faith and law.

Transcript

Christa Potratz: 0:01

On today's episode….

Jeff Samelson: 0:02

If you base your, you know you take your stand on something that just is the thing that really bothers you, but it's not reflective of a more general principle. It's really hard to win your battles, your battles, because you get and we've seen this time and time again in church bodies that are going liberal and there are still conservative members of it that someone will stand up and say this far and no further on, for instance, the matter of ordaining gay preachers or something like that. Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources.

Paul Snamiska: 0:40

Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.

Christa Potratz: 1:08

Hi and welcome back. I'm Christa Potratz and I'm here today with Pastors Bob Fleischmann and Jeff Samelson. Today we're going to do another one of our current event episodes what's Trending and talk about some things that have been in the news. I do just want to mention that we are recording this episode mid May for the episode that's going to come out at the beginning of June here, and so we might not get all of the latest news or noteworthy stories here, but we're going to. We'll cover some and if there is anything that comes out that you think we should have covered, we'll do another episode for the beginning of July too. It is the Methodist Church that has been getting a lot of news recently, just with some of the voting that has passed in that church body. I mean, I know that there was a vote. I think the majority of the articles that I've read have said you know, oh, they have repealed a 40-year-old ban on same-sex clergy Right ordaining clergy Yep.

Jeff Samelson: 2:31

Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I guess you might say that as far as the present I mean what's just happened, it's kind of like eh.

Jeff Samelson: 2:41

What's really interesting here is the history and the future that's involved. The history, because the United Methodist Church, which is the product of the union of some other church bodies and things like that and has long history of it, but it was one of these really huge church bodies that formed in America that, because it was so big, it had a whole lot of different theological and moral perspectives and ideas about what the church should be about and everything like that. And also one of the interesting things about the United Methodist Church is that, whereas most American church bodies, when they do mission work outside the United States, their goal is to form new church bodies in those nations, the United Methodist Church, for whatever reason, basically decided that no, when they started churches in, say, nigeria, that those churches would become part of the United Methodist Church, and so that meant that when they had their annual or semi-annual, whenever their big conventions would come, that would vote on things that they had representation from pretty extreme division in the United Methodist Church about the direction of the church, particularly in regards to same-sex issues and sexual ethics and political involvement and things like that conservatives, theological conservatives, fighting against people who were more Bible-neutral or Bible-ignoring progressives. And what made it interesting is that the progressive side, generally speaking, had control of all the levers of power, so to speak, in the United Methodist Church, but because of the influence or the numbers that were brought in by the church bodies outside the United States, the conservatives had more of the numbers, and so that's why this policy that would probably have been repealed decades ago, was still in place. Repealed decades ago was still in place.

Jeff Samelson: 5:04

Well, what happened was people finally realized that the church could not exist in this state of disunity, and a few years ago, they finally made arrangements for a division. So, slowly but surely, the more theologically conservative churches and members have been leaving, and that means that the balance of power has shifted, and now the United Methodist Church, the progressive we'll just call them the progressive more theologically liberal parties. They're now in the majority and they have control, and so it was a natural thing that they voted to repeal this policy. Well, I say, the question of the future is interesting, is okay. What's going to happen now? Because most of the theologically liberal church bodies that get way out in front on all these social issues shrink and shrink and shrink and shrink, and it's, generally speaking, only the theologically conservative church bodies that are growing anywhere, and so it's going to be very interesting to see where this goes.

Bob Fleischmann: 6:07

My experience with the United Methodist Church goes back to when I was a student at Bethany Lutheran College. I went up there in 1976, and I started working. I was doing research for Al Quist's book on the abortion revolution and I was looking at there was an organization called the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights and I discovered that it was actually housed in the United Methodist Church headquarters and they were one of the listed bylines in there, which always surprised me because also some very pro-life leaders I knew were members of the United Methodist Church. So you had kind of like what we experienced a little bit with ELCA, where you can have a conservative and you can have a liberal church in the same community, in the same church body, but very different. And so this didn't surprise me. But I learned a lot about them and abortion and stuff like that with the Methodist church. But then a few years ago, prior to the pandemic, the Methodists had their conference here in Milwaukee and when they had their conference in Milwaukee one of the great quotes was from one of the leaders of the African branch of the Methodist Church and I'm paraphrasing it, but I have the quote literally someplace in my file. But he made something on the order of on this question of gay clergy. You know we do not need you to bring your Western culture to the African churches. Clearly, the very conservative clearly saw this as a threat to biblical Christianity. I want to pick up on something Jeff said in this regard. And that is what happens. You know what's going to happen with the future.

Bob Fleischmann: 7:59

I've wondered that too, because when I've looked at other church bodies that have jumped onto the bandwagon of taking positions that are contrary to Scripture, you have to remember that they do that in what I call an erosive way, in other words, they launch into this position that well, probably a higher critical method of interpreting Scripture. So the way you solve the problem when Scripture speaks against homosexual activity is you just simply say well, that's in the Bible, but that's not the Word of God, in other words. And then they have a kind of an explanation of how that would have gotten in there, and they do that all the time. I mean, when you've dealt with people from church bodies that have adopted contrary biblical views like abortion rights or gay rights and so forth, that's how they do it. Well then, when that church is allowed to follow its natural trajectory, only so long does it survive on this idea that you could be liberal, you can be conservative, but we can all be part because we all worship the same God, that kind of mentality. But after a while it just kind of peters out, because the mentality that says you can be liberal, you can be progressive, ultimately has to be honest with itself and says I only like God when I agree with him, which of course means that I don't really like the God of the Bible.

Bob Fleischmann: 9:23

I like the God that I create in my mind, which also, I think, correlates with the dramatic drop in attendance that you're seeing in a lot of churches. Because they're even saying that—I just read a study recently that said that more and more people are calling themselves none but they are not calling themselves atheists. And that's because they still like to say I believe in God, but they're selective about themselves atheists. And that's because they still like to say I believe in God, but they're selective about what they want to believe about God and it just doesn't make for a cohesive unit. Now, I know, you know I've been a member of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, you know, since the day of my child baptism, and there are times where I grit my teeth over the way we do things, but our adherence to Scripture and the adherence of any church body's Scripture, as all the Word of God is a unifying factor.

Bob Fleischmann: 10:15

Now, it may not always play out that we're always going to be growing or always going to have a strong membership, because even us who have a consistent stand on Scripture have suffered declining memberships. But it answers a lot of questions that society is trying to baffle you with. Can't a woman have an abortion? Can't gay preachers be preachers in our church body? That kind of stuff Even the tenderest of hearts might say well, of course we all love God, he loves all of us and everything. But then you get the rest of the Word of God. That kind of gets in your way, but it holds you to the line. And the United Methodist Church is just one more church body that has slowly started to cave in. And it's alarming, not just for the Methodists, although the number of the conservatives have broken off already, but it's just alarming in general. Anytime a church begins to feel like they have a better insight of what is God's will than God has, it should raise alarm. It should raise alarm.

Christa Potratz: 11:22

Yeah, no, I mean, that's really true. And I saw too a little news story too about a pastor who he and his congregation very much did not agree with the vote that was carried out but just said how financially burdensome it would be for them to leave, and just that type of thing. And really I mean, and that really hit me too, because I think sometimes, you know, I hear like the news article, like, oh, the Methodist church is doing this, and I just think like, oh, all right, there's another group, another religion that's off the bandwagon or whatever. And hearing just that pastor talk and how he didn't agree with that, and everything just made me right away think, oh man, you know, there probably are, there is collateral damage, so to speak, or people that aren't necessarily thinking that way, just made me very much pray for those people that are still in that but maybe don't agree with what's going on.

Jeff Samelson: 12:23

Yeah, just two things that come to mind from what you were just sharing there still in that, but maybe don't agree with what's going on.

Jeff Samelson: 12:26

Yeah, just two things that come to mind from what you were just sharing there.

Jeff Samelson: 12:29

One is that it is it's sad how often financial concerns end up trumping theological concerns or, for that matter, fidelity to the scriptures and doing what God wants, Whether that is a pastor who stays as a member of a church body that has gone off the rails because he's worried about his pension, or a congregation that's worried about losing its, uh, its property or its investments, or or whatever, or even church bodies like well, you know, we won't be able to do this outreach to our community or that ministry or whatever, if we lose our attachment to the parent church body or something like that, and that's, that's a lack of faith, it's, it's, it's not trusting that God will take care of you if you do what God wants, and that's a tragedy.

Jeff Samelson: 13:19

And the other thought was just that if you take your stand on something, that just is the thing that really bothers you but it's not reflective of a more general principle. It's really hard to win your battles because you get and we've seen this time and time again in in church bodies that are going liberal and there are still conservative members of it that that they will. You know, someone will stand up and say this far and no further on, for instance, the matter of ordaining gay preachers or something like that, or approving same-sex marriage or something like that, and they say, well, this is what God's Word says. But the problem is they don't make the this is what God's Word says argument against all sorts of other things that they're just fine with in their church body, that they're just fine with in their church body, and it's an inconsistent stand, and it helps explain why, in the end, they never win because they're not actually standing firmly on the Word of God.

Christa Potratz: 14:30

Well, probably a lot more that we could say on this news topic, and we'll probably come back to it on a different episode, but another one that we wanted to talk about is that there's one that says Louisiana moves to make abortion pills controlled dangerous substances or called, you know, dangerous substances. Can someone fill us in on what that story is about?

Jeff Samelson: 15:05

Well, that's just a news article that this was somewhat of a surprise to some observers or whatever.

Jeff Samelson: 15:08

But Louisiana is one of the most pro-life states in the union right now in terms of its abortion legislation and such, and they're adding this to some legislation to basically say that possessing the abortion pills without a valid prescription for them or outside of professional use was going to be made illegal and you could be prosecuted for it and it's sentenced to prison.

Jeff Samelson: 15:32

And, of course, it's being blown out of proportion by people on the pro-abortion side basically saying oh well, you're going to be arresting women and doctors, and the way it's written is precisely to avoid that. What it's being written against is people who would use them illicitly. The sponsors in the Louisiana legislature was someone whose own sister had been surreptitiously given abortion pills by her soon-to-be ex-husband. When he found out she was pregnant, he put them into her water or something like that, because he was trying to get rid of the baby, and this bill would criminalize any kind of use like that. But it also means that people who are trying to get around the laws in Louisiana that ban the use of the abortion pill they can be actually prosecuted. It won't just be a slap on the wrist or something like that, that they can be prosecuted, perhaps even sent to prison, if they are, say, ordering the pills themselves and then surreptitiously giving them to women who otherwise would not be able to obtain them.

Bob Fleischmann: 16:44

One of the things that seems to be going on ever since the Dobbs decision is the abortion rights. People are always looking for little nooks and crannies that they can work around the law. Looking for little nooks and crannies that they can work around the law and of course the abortion pill has been one of them. And the intent of returning the matter to the states is allowing the states to determine what they want to do and how they want to treat and how they want to value human life. And it's been an interesting study in human psychology to watch the way sometimes even pro-life people start flapping in the wind, being inconsistent on the issue of abortion and IVF and so forth, all sorts of that stuff going on. But one of the things that's interesting is the old Comstock law which was adopted I don't know, 1879 keeps coming into my mind, but it was 1800s for those who want to get really worked up and say a Civil War era law. But the Comstock Law basically forbade the use of postal system for the distribution of pornography and harmful medicines. And it's still, to my knowledge it's still there, it's still on a book, but it's not being enforced.

Bob Fleischmann: 18:01

I think rather than getting all worked up over talking about it. We should just simply ask this question. And that is why would it not? How would you make an argument for not enforcing it as a Christian? How would you make an argument for not enforcing it as a Christian? How would you make an argument for not enforcing it? Not like it, but it's the desire of the state to protect life and rather than honor it. We like to scandalize it, not even recalling the fact that there was a time where those high levels of regard were held. It's almost like all of history was wrong and just we are right today, and that's a crazy notion. It's a dangerous notion and it's only getting worse.

Christa Potratz: 19:07

Yeah, a lot of really good stuff there, and I think too it just is very unfortunate with everything and I think you know too just with being able kind of what you were saying too with the news story, just because we can get it through the mail and because you don't really need to see a doctor and everything, it does make it easier for the quote unquote like like wrong people to get a hold of it. Just think of people like in the sex trafficking industry and different things, and a birth of a child poses a problem for people in that too, and so to go through some of these things or to have things that are more accessible are easier for the wrong people to get a hold of it too are more accessible, are easier for the wrong people to get a hold of.

Bob Fleischmann: 20:01

It too. Just to add, you know, when you have like a moral absolute, like life begins at conception, and you know stuff like that, it's hard to argue with it. And so what happens is there's basically two or three techniques that are used. One is bullying. It's only a matter of time before somebody will threaten Louisiana and say, if you pass this law, if you hold to this law, we're not going to have our convention there. So bullying, because if you don't have an argument, you're just going to bully. The other thing, of course, is exaggeration, and Jeff was pointing that out earlier that they tend to exaggerate kind of what the law means. And of course, exaggeration is always a polemical tool on distraction. It gets you to focus where they want you to focus and not on the objective truths, and so they exaggerate. And we've seen this technique used in other areas and I think we're going to see more of it.

Christa Potratz: 20:58

We've seen this technique used in other areas, and I think we're going to see more of it. Well, another article that came across too was abortion bans and medical training. This one's from the, I believe, washington Post, and in it it was talking about how people that were going to be doing their residency didn't feel that they could go and do their residency down in the South anymore, that they wouldn't get proper medical training as OBGYNs down there. What is that saying and what?

Jeff Samelson: 21:35

are the implications with that? I mean, the first thing that comes to mind for me is just the disconnect that there is that, the inconsistency that people who want to be OBGYNs that, yeah, I mean, you would just naturally assume these are the people who just love new life. They're all about. Let's bring these children that are conceived through a wonderfully healthy pregnancy into the world and start life and do everything possible to have healthy children and healthy mothers and everything that they would concern training in how to kill babies in the womb as something that they really needed to do, needed to do. And once you get past the emotional aspect of that, you realize well, this says something about where this, these objections, is coming from. This, this is an ideological thing. This is not actually a practical matter, because how is it that you really feel that, in order to help women bear healthy children, you need to to to know this stuff about killing them in the womb? You don't really. Now I will say that there, there is legitimate need to know this stuff about killing them in the womb. You don't really. Now I will say that there is legitimate need to know how to do certain types of procedures after a miscarriage Some of the same things that are done for surgical abortion are used for that, but that's a very limited type of experience and you can get that anywhere where abortion is banned, because that is still something that happens in those places.

Jeff Samelson: 22:59

But with this particular article, when you dig down a little deeper and into the report that it was based on, they are presenting data as though well, wow, this just shows this incredible trend and we've got to all be worried about this. And the data is not actually there, and so articles like these are things that when we Christians read them or hear them reported, we need to show some discernment and dig a little deeper. I mean, first of all, the timeframe on this. Before the Dobbs decision, there would have been no concern about any of this because abortion was legal in all 50 states, so any data that's been collected on this would only be from the last few years residencies in states with abortion bans and a 0.6% drop overall in applications, you know, across all states, which means that the drop in states with abortion bans is only 3.6%, which, statistically speaking, really isn't much. And then they do actually report it, which I give them credit for.

Jeff Samelson: 24:17

But, um, this it's kind of one of the last things in the piece. It's like oh, by the way, there are no actually actually no residencies going unfilled in any of the 50 states, because there always are more applicants than there are openings. It's like so what's the problem here? The problem is, is that somebody with an agenda is wanting to make. It is a very small thing and it's really not the big deal that they're making it out to be, Well, once again, it's the two techniques, when you don't have a leg to stand on.

Bob Fleischmann: 25:07

It's either bullying or exaggeration To try to create an alarmist-type sense about it. It's pure distraction, you know. It's never getting to the core of the issue. Nobody ever wants to talk about the fact that the objection, the primary objection in abortion is that it's intended to terminate a life. And, of course, what kind of culture do you want if the goal is to permit the termination of some lives? So you know.

Bob Fleischmann: 25:36

So the pro-abortion movement tries to obscure what they're doing by saying well, we accept that it's a life, it's just not a person, you know. It doesn't have a legal status of personhood. Well, you call it, call it chocolate chip, I don't care what you want to call it. The point is is that it is a life. They know it, we know it, and the people who know better, the people who know the truth about it better, start making a little noise in return, because they are carrying the day. Creating these alarmist stories and so forth about these things has this tremendous way of distracting people from what's going on. And so that's the agenda, and I commend them for being excellent in carrying out their agenda.

Jeff Samelson: 26:20

Yeah, I'll just you know to the extent that there's any truth in this. One bright side for pro-life people is that if you're pro-life in that state, you know this will increase the chances that your doctor is going to be pro-life also. Yeah, you know which isn't a bad thing.

Bob Fleischmann: 26:35

You know, I've been getting the New England Journal of Medicine for years and I used to get the Journal of the American Medical Association, jama, but it just got too expensive and way too liberal journals and these prestigious organizations like gynecology organizations and so forth they actually have a relatively small fraction of the total professionals in that field are members of the association. I remember worrying about my doctor being part of like AMA and their pro-abortion position and stuff like that. Find out. I couldn't find a doctor who was part of AMA. You know the doctors I had dealt with. It was like 20-some years ago that I talked to about it that no, we don't bother, it's not worth the dues, we don't agree with their political statements, we don't agree.

Bob Fleischmann: 27:30

I think you have to walk into these stories with both eyes open, like Jeff said, with some discernment, and stories with both eyes open, like Jeff said, with some discernment, and then again, don't be distracted. They want to argue about medical residency. You mean prior to Roe v Wade, 1973, we did it before and it worked just fine. All of a sudden, now it's not going to work. It's not going to work when you want to reject any type of objective value on human life. So what you got to remember is if you give any credence to this kind of argument, you're giving credence to their view of life, and then you're walking down a path of no return turn.

Christa Potratz: 28:23

Well, that is pretty much all we have time for today. So, yeah, but we will definitely hit up some more articles next month. And, yeah, thank you both for your insight on these and we look forward to having our listeners, all of you, back next time. Thanks a lot, bye.

Paul Snamiska: 28:37

Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life. All of you back next time. Thanks a lot Bye life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out For more about our parent organization, please visit christianliferesourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.