The Life Challenges Podcast
The Life Challenges Podcast
Bethlehem Bridge Building: Faith and Fellowship During the Holidays
Join us as we discuss how Christians can effectively share their faith during the Christmas season, emphasizing the importance of witnessing while navigating family dynamics and secular traditions. We explore practical strategies for bridging meaningful conversations, as well as provide personal stories that illustrate the positive impacts of simple actions during the holiday season.
This episode:
• Discusses the significance of the Christmas story in witnessing
• Explores the challenges of engaging in faith conversations during family gatherings
• Offers practical tips for sharing the gospel through Christmas traditions
• Emphasizes the importance of humility and gentleness in discussions
• Highlights the impact of small, heartfelt acts of kindness during the holidays
On today's episode….
Speaker 2:People like to get you sidelined on other arguments. I think we talked about it in an earlier episode about was he born in a cave? Was he born in a feeding trough? Because there's some flexibility in the wording, there's some flexibility in the timing, there's some flexibility. Talk about missing the point. Maybe what it's all about is the truth, the simple truth of the words, that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh. And I think sometimes, when we go through the motions of our holidays, we act as if the story might not be true. But what if it is true? If it is true, it's the most life-reforming thing that you possibly can experience.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. People today face many opportunities and struggles when it comes to issues of life and death, marriage and family, health and science. We're here to bring a fresh biblical perspective to these issues and more. Join us now for Life Challenges.
Speaker 1:Hi and welcome back. I'm Krista Potretz and I'm here today with Pastors Bob Fleischman and Jeff Samuelson, and today we want to talk about Bethlehem Bridge Building. For as long as I've been doing this podcast here, bob has talked about building bridges. It's a big thing here at CLR and now there's even a new bridge ministry that's going on. I wanted to take this concept of building bridges, which is connecting with people, and talk specifically with the Christmas story as well. Christians often talk about Christmas and that it can be a great opportunity to witness to unbelievers, and we just want to unpack that a little bit today. So, jeff, anything to kind of get us started on this topic today with just this general idea of witnessing at Christmastime.
Speaker 4:If someone says, okay, yeah, no, christmas, fantastic time to witness to unbelievers, I mean the response to that is well yes and well no at the same time. It's yes in that pretty much the entire culture, even people who don't have anything to do with Christianity, is engaged with a holiday that celebrates the good news of God sending a Savior from sin and that should, in theory, make conversations about the meaning of the holiday just natural and appropriate. But on the other hand, celebrations of the holiday, particularly in our culture, have become in so many ways so far separated from the real story of Christ that a lot of people it kind of gets to the point where they view that story or the spiritual meaning or realities of it as irrelevant at best or perhaps even an unwelcome intrusion into their celebrations. Don't talk to me about that stuff. Talk to me about Santa, maybe, but don't give me all this Jesus stuff and sin.
Speaker 2:Let's just have a good time and sin and you know let's just have a good time and generally at family gatherings you'll have your occasional guest. Boyfriend, girlfriend will come to a family gathering and you find out they have no religious background. Usually, you know the family's put on alert. Be careful here. You know John doesn't have a religious background. And then the other part that you get that's probably even more difficult is you get family members who do have religious background, who have just progressively over the years drifted further and further away.
Speaker 2:And that's why oftentimes, as I'm listening to Jeff describe kind of the way the world reacts to Christmas, it's disheartening sometimes the way we Christians react. You have this big letdown because the last child in the family can't make it up for the event and all of a sudden my Christmas is ruined. Or there's been a death in the family or there's— I always remember a funeral sermon I heard in which the pastor said well, now there'll be an empty place at the table and it just sounded like such a depressing thing and bridging with Bethlehem really is a challenge. I mean it's a challenge because I think sometimes we don't bridge we who know better.
Speaker 2:Everybody here who's listened to the podcast knows that we do this in the Fleischman home, our parlor in the basement, and I go all out to decorate for Christmas. I don't know if you two noticed, but there are no Christmas decorations on here. Yeah, and I'm crushed. There just was no way for me to get to it this year.
Speaker 1:Oh, are there usually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and actually, yeah, we kind of used to go all out Sometimes we've well before we podcast. We used to put a Christmas tree over in the corner. We had it decorated in a 1935 theme and we had some old decorations around and that kind of stuff. But you begin to start attaching to your Christmas observation all sorts of things that really have nothing to do with the Christmas story. If we're going to recognize that our calling in life is to glorify God in all things, including in a Christmas celebration and including in our conversations, we need to find bridges, and sometimes the bridges are going to be difficult and different for everyone.
Speaker 2:One of the difficulties I have when I write is it's hard to write for a scattered audience. Some people are like way with it. They wear their faith on their sleeve. Other people, they know they should say more, they just don't know what to say. So oftentimes, what is our number one out at Christmastime? And that is well.
Speaker 2:Why don't you at least come to me, to the Christmas service or the Christmas Eve service or the children's service? I think. First of all, I think we all have to wake up to the fact that you glorify God. You know whether two or three are gathered in his name, or two or three thousand are gathered in his name. That's the first thing.
Speaker 2:Second thing you got to wake up to is that you know, when we talk about bridging, the first thing you have to surrender in a discussion on bridging is this idea that you need to win an argument, that you need to win your point, that you need to score that day, and that has always been a problem. It's been a problem for me. How does religion come up during a family festival? It usually comes up within the context of talking about controversial issues, like we do at CLR. So the topic is abortion or physician-assisted suicide or homosexuality rights and stuff like that, and all of a sudden we feel the need to win that argument and you're building a bridge to nowhere. When you start there, you're starting at the wrong end of the road.
Speaker 4:I think a lot of what Bob's illustrating there is that the real question is not so much. Is Christmas a good time or opportunity?
Speaker 2:for witness, but it is.
Speaker 4:Rather, should Christians approach Christmas as an opportunity to witness? And the answer there is an unqualified yes. First of all, because giving witness to Christ and all that we have in him is an all-the-time thing. It's not just a well, this is a good time, that's a bad time thing. And instead, when you take that attitude, well, of course I'm going to use this time of year in this way to talk about Jesus, to share the gospel, this way to talk about Jesus, to share the gospel. In that case, whether the people that you're with or talking to or engaged with are naturally open to what you have to say or not, you're going to find a way to somehow use the occasion to make the connections that Christmas is so rich with. And again, in line with what Bob was saying about this idea of you have to win the argument, also realize that when you're sharing the gospel with someone, you don't have to give the three-chapter whole shebang all at once.
Speaker 4:You hear a beautiful traditional Christmas carol on the radio or something like that, and you just say isn't it wonderful the way that that talks about it? I have just always found it so meaningful when it says what child is this? The meaning of those words and you can talk about that. Maybe it's 15 seconds of witness and that's all you get time for, but it's 15 seconds more than that person had otherwise. And you can talk about the traditions of Christmas and their Christian roots and how they reflect the deeper truths of Christmas time and all these things. And when you stop and you think about it you realize, well, actually there are all these opportunities there that we just kind of like Bob was saying, so many religious people it's like, well, I'm going to back away from that, that's a little bit uncomfortable or everybody knows that stuff anyway, so why talk about it? And there are always opportunities. And even people who are cradle-to-grave type Christians, they still need the witness of other Christians to encourage them in their faith to embrace the great mystery that we're talking about here.
Speaker 1:I think that that's very true and I know a lot of. In our culture we've gotten very secular with Christmas and that there are things that maybe seems okay, can't really talk about that or that type of thing, but it is an opportunity where there are things that even just in a secular setting something that you were saying too, like a Christmas song I mean pretty much everybody that I know has heard of Joy to the World and I know we've talked about how you don't really like this one, jeff, but you know O Holy Night. But I mean there are Christian themes in these songs and I mean you know that one, and so there is an opportunity there to just know that people have heard these things and I mean maybe they don't have, you know, like the full knowledge of Luke, chapter two. There at least, is this understanding. And then when you kind of expand on that, it isn't that foreign sounding.
Speaker 1:I mean, last year too, we took the kids and their friends and we went caroling around our neighborhood and I had knocked on the doors beforehand to just make sure that people would be home and everything. And I went to one of our neighbors who I know isn't Christian, doesn't really like to talk about it, that type of thing. But I said, you know, would you be interested if we came by and caroled? Oh yeah, you know, and she was real excited about it. And then and we came by the next day and of course, in our lineup, our religious songs came by the next day and of course, in our lineup, our religious songs. She loved it, you know, and really was impressed and really enjoyed it and I just thought, oh okay, this was like a way to share that with her. So I think there are just opportunities to share with people, because there is maybe not, as as we Welles Lutherans would say, like a substantial knowledge of the events, but there is enough that people just can associate with what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, our desire to always want to debate and argue. I think of the Christmas songs. How many of us feel more confident pointing out that we three kings of Orient are, that they probably weren't kings and there probably were more than three.
Speaker 1:In other words, we know all of these contrarian facts but we kind of like miss the point and they didn't come on Christmas, right, yeah, they weren't at the Bethlehem manger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all those kinds of things. The point is, you know, I'm just going to share a personal thing, krista, with you talking about bringing the kids around and so forth. I think a lot of times we forget that sometimes the unusual and the unexpected leaves the impact it does. A number of years ago I had to have heart surgery and after the heart surgery I was told you know, no shoveling, anything like that, and the condition should have taken my life, and it didn't. And it was Christmas Day, christmas morning, and all of a sudden I noticed images through the front door window and I look outside and here is a fellow with his wife and two young kids at 7.30 Christmas Day shoveling my sidewalk, and I hardly knew who they were. I recognized him from church and he later became one of my best friends who has sat here while we podcast at least once, and then died a couple of years ago now. But I always remember that and I try to tell that story.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes when you get—when things like that happen, when your children are singing at the house of somebody who's agnostic or atheistic and the impact, the positive impact you didn't give the law gospel message, it wasn't formulaic, you just sang Christmas songs, and bridge building sometimes starts, quite honestly, with one two-by-four at a time, and you've got to be willing to do that. And I think of—now I just found out this morning. My youngest daughter told me we're going to have 23 people here. Okay, 23 people in our house is—now? We've had a lot of people, we've had more than twice that many here at times, but 23 people is a lot for any house. And one of the first things, the first casualty of any gathering of that size, becomes the prayer. It's hard to get everybody corralled to thank the one who provided the food for us. One of the things that we can do to begin bridge building is, you know, kind of like I don't care if Aunt Mary has already started on the salad and she's already beginning to move to the main course. When the time comes and everybody seems settled, somebody has to speak up and say shall we just say the prayer? All you're doing is you're first of all thanking God, of course, but to everybody around you you're telegraphing the message that there is something here that is of deeper meaning.
Speaker 2:I learn more lessons from staff than I do, from all the reading I do, and that is, you know, new Beginnings had operated for about 18 years, 19 years, and I know that we had always gathered gifts at church and then we packaged them up and made them out for the mothers and for the children, and at that time we were in Denver, so we'd shipped them out to Denver. So we'd shipped them out to Denver and for the first time somebody had video recorded Christmas. And I just remember I remember it like it was yesterday. Heidi was our home manager and she's sitting cross-legged on the floor in front of the Christmas tree, a ton of presents all around her, because people were very generous.
Speaker 2:Her mother is there recording this on her phone and said we're going to start off. Heidi says we're going to start off. I'm going to read Luke 2. And everyone and the kids were incredibly good. And she gets to the end of the story and it's on the video. One of the mothers said I have never heard that, sometimes just remembering to somehow infuse the real Christmas story in your observation, because you're going to have a segment of the family that's going to show up after church, a segment of the family that's going to get there in a way so that they don't have to go to the service, and sometimes they need to be reminded. I remember when I heard that statement that just so energized me to make sure that we don't overlook it amongst all the glamour of it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, your earlier comment, bob, about the things that are unexpected or unusual or whatever. It made me think of the Charlie Brown Christmas special, the Charlie Brown Christmas special, and I don't remember all the history of that, but one of the things I do remember is that that really striking moment where they're having the children's Christmas program and then Linus stands up and he recites from Luke to the Christmas story, was something that some of the powers that be when the network or whatever it said, oh no, we don't want to include that. And I'm pretty sure it was Charles Schultz who just stood firm and said no, absolutely, that stays in and that remains as something. People who see it for the first time and even people who've seen it many times before, they still find that, wow, this is a TV Christmas special and that's like the word of God naked, unafraid, the word of God right there. How many millions of people have been exposed to that that otherwise would never have been because of the place that that was found?
Speaker 4:I also wanted to, real quick, just bring up something Bob had said about the contrarian nature and wanting to win arguments.
Speaker 4:I've seen again on Facebook posts and things like that.
Speaker 4:Otherwise really intelligent people think they're scoring some major points by talking about, well, these are the real roots of Christmas, and they talk about these pagan celebrations and how the date couldn't possibly be wrong and all these kinds of things.
Speaker 4:And I will say that there are very good, solid arguments against every one of those objections and our well, my, and I think I speak for a lot of other people. You know my first instinct when you know coming across something like that, is to gather together all that evidence and say, see, here's how you're wrong. You know well, actually, but how about instead, particularly if this is something that happens across a dining table or in conversation or something like that just say, well, okay, yeah, and so even if everything that you just said about Christians adopting features of some pagan holiday, even if what you said about the date of the holiday being completely wrong, even if that were so, how does that in any way take away from the significance of the event that is actually being celebrated with Christmas that God sent his son to save the world from its sins that's still there, even if all your objections are correct. So how do you deal with that?
Speaker 1:I think too, even when Bob was saying before and just talking about the prayer and being in your home, that's also one area of encouragement too for people is just to be comfortable in your home too, to be able to open up and share. I know sometimes, like over the years, you know, I've had people in the home and that person am I going to offend them if I pray or just different things? And then over the years I've just been more confident and this is my home, this is our home, this is a place where we can and should feel comfortable being who we are and sharing Jesus in our home. That's really just helped me over the years too, to just realize that when people come into and I mean most people too are respectful when coming into your home and realizing, okay, these are the thing, the way that the potratzes do it. I just want to give people that confidence too, to be able to be confident especially in sharing the gospel in your home.
Speaker 2:I've always wanted to write a book or maybe a long devotion on. Maybe the hokey pokey is what it's all about. The only reason that it comes to mind is the think about it this way what if a virgin did conceive and give birth to a child? What if an angelic announcement occurred to shepherds in the field? What if an angelic announcement occurred to shepherds in the field? What if there was a star that was tracked by wise men from the east? And what if all of the words of the Old Testament really were leading up to this moment? And then, what if the story of the life of Christ, the horrible last week of his life, and the resurrection, what if that's all true? If it is all true, I always go back to that 1 Corinthians section where it says about the resurrection. If it didn't happen, then we are to be pitied more than all people. But it did happen. And the point is, like Jeff was pointing out, people like to get you sidelined on other arguments. I think we talked about it in an earlier episode about was he born in a cave, was he born in a feeding trough, because there's some flexibility in the wording, there's some flexibility in the timing, there's some flexibility, talk about missing the point. Maybe what it's all about is the truth, the simple truth of the words. That in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
Speaker 2:And I think sometimes, when we go through the motions of our holidays, we act as if the story might not be true. Days we act as if the story might not be true. But what if it is true? If it is true, it's the most life-reforming thing that you possibly can experience. And so I don't know, it would make kind of a funny name for devotion, you know.
Speaker 2:But at the same time I just, you know, I don't want to sound self-righteous I think we've all sat around and watched people go through the motions of Christmas and wondering do you get it? You know, is it? You know, when you're sitting in church and the mother in front of you quick nudges the kid and just says, cecilia, there won't be any presents, okay, I think we're missing something here, you know. But the point is, is that you're not going to correct it by one sentence, one little song or anything like that. But you know, you correct, rebuke and encourage with great patience, careful instruction. You're letting your gentleness be evident to all. You've got one grand goal and that is to always tell the truth of the Christmas story, and sometimes you've just got to figure out how to do it in your setting. You know, I don't have family like setting. I don't have family like you. You don't have family like me. It's just day and night different sometimes.
Speaker 1:Well, I'd like to give our listeners to maybe just some practical things to think about when we talk about building bridges, and so are there good places or connections that we can make with the Christmas. What does it kind of look like to do some of this that we've been talking about?
Speaker 2:Listen to the conversations that come up. Try to bring in something that's meaningful, like there's going to be football on Christmas and so you might talk about something Again. If you're bridge building, you're talking about something. You're not trying to win an argument, you're not trying to make somebody else look stupid, just talk about something. You're trying to build a rapport. But you can also talk about like my parents announced the other day. They made an announcement like this was going to be earth shattering. My mom goes Robert, we've become hooked on Hallmark movies and of course you know I threw myself to the ground, I cried, I was traumatic about the announcement.
Speaker 2:But the thing is, you know, so you talk about Hallmark movies, you talk about common themes and everything and how they are nice, they are fuzzy, and then you just slip in a little notion. You know a lot of times they might miss the Christmas story, but they kind of capture a Christmas spirit of thinking more of others and everything and not thinking about where they learned that from or where we learned it from perfectly. But a lot depends on the kind of person you are. If you are kind of a jerky person in real life and all of a sudden you try to sound very Christmassy, no one's going to listen to you.
Speaker 2:Bridge building is a process, not an event, and so I would say, you know you try to make sure that there's minimally a prayer at the dinner table. If you're going to watch television, think of something you watch that might give you an opportunity to talk about the true Christmas story. And if it's not the true Christmas story, you know, ask yourself why is it a Christmas value to be gift-giving, or why? You know when did that come from? They just announced here did you see it? In the last I don't know two weeks or so they think they have discovered the actual grave of the original St Nicholas.
Speaker 4:Oh, I hadn't seen that, yeah.
Speaker 2:So they feel they have found the actual grave. Well, I mean, there, it's a curiosity thing, you can talk about it and everything. And St Nicholas was a religious man and so he was a religious man and as a religious man he saw the need to love as he had been loved. You know so little quirky tidbits like that give you a stepping stone to talk about. Well, how was he loved? He knew of a Savior.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I guess another practical thing would just be, if you're the kind of person who thinks way too far ahead and I admit that I am myself this way sometimes like, well, yeah, but if I say this, then Jack over there is going to respond this way and then that's going to be a whole mess and so I'm just not going to say anything at all. There is a legitimate thing, you know you don't go making trouble, you know whatever. But when it comes to witnessing or just talking about important stuff, don't let somebody else's bad reaction fall back on you as though it's your responsibility. If you are doing and saying what is right, then let the responsibility for anything bad that follows be on them, and the specific application there is if you're talking about this is what I really find touching about the Christmas story, and it just means so much to me, because knowing that God cared so much to send his own son as a savior to take away my sins, and Jack or whoever just has this really negative reaction to it, it's like, oh, you're always talking about sin, Let that be on him.
Speaker 4:You still said the right thing, the best thing, and who knows, maybe the reason Jack is responding so negatively is because you're hidden close to home, in which case you should actually keep on, not shrink away. And even Bob mentioned you get into a conversation about homosexuality or something like that or whatever, Say you're talking about the wonder of Christ's birth and the incarnation and maybe you, maybe somebody else, makes a connection to how that relates to making the case for life, that that child in the womb, every child in the womb, is a human being with every right to life or whatever, and then that other person at the table or whatever starts getting upset about that and turns this into oh well, this is just all about you being opposed to abortion and women's rights or something like this. That's on them, Decline to engage with them in the way that they want to be engaged with and keep the focus where you want it to be. Just because somebody challenges you to a fight doesn't mean you have to accept. Just because somebody challenges you to a fight doesn't mean you have to accept 1 Peter 3.15,.
Speaker 2:In your heart, venerate or keep Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you the reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect, and there's a way that you portray yourself when you are bridge building that makes you someone that someone else wants to come and talk to at some point. Take what Jeff said to heart, because you can't control how other people react, but you can always control how you react.
Speaker 1:This is what I say to my children all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is true, because in the end, you can only be accountable for what you do. So you remain calm, you remain loving, your gentleness is being evident, you're respectful, and I think that a lot of times we do get lost in this struggle, that things become an argument. And we heard this, we talked about this before the election. You don't talk religion. You don't talk politics. I don't know, call me a fool, but I like to religion. You don't talk politics. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Call me a fool, but I like to walk into those lion's dens sometime, but I like to see if I can do it without feeling the need to win the argument. In fact, are you willing to lose that argument, whatever argument it is, about who you should vote for, how you should feel about a wide assortment of issues, even when there's solid biblical evidence on your side? What great patience and careful instruction means that chances are pretty good. That first encounter wasn't a blowover victory by whoever you know. Those words were originally intended and now they're intended for all of us. So practice, build a bridge. They're not going to ask you the reason for the hope that you have if you don't look hopeful.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you both for this Great things to think about, and we wish everyone to a Merry Christmas and God's blessings on your holiday and your family get-togethers too, and if you have any questions on this episode or any others, please reach out to us at lifechallengesus. We'll see you back next time. Bye.
Speaker 3:Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Life Challenges podcast from Christian Life Resources. Please consider subscribing to this podcast, giving us a review wherever you access it and sharing it with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. It with friends. We're sure you have questions on today's topic or other life issues. Our goal is to help you through these tough topics and we want you to know we're here to help. You can submit your questions, as well as comments or suggestions for future episodes, at lifechallengesus or email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. Email us at podcast at christianliferesourcescom. In addition to the podcasts, we include other valuable information at lifechallengesus, so be sure to check it out. For more about our parent organization, please visit christianliferesourcescom. May God give you wisdom, love, strength and peace in Christ for every life challenge.
