Psychic Babes
Welcome to Psychic Babes, a podcast where the mystical meets the everyday, and where being a babe in the psychic realm becomes a journey of empowerment. Here we embrace the play on words: Babe, signifies someone in unversed or unfamiliar territory. We believe that everyone has an innate psychic potential yet many of us are navigating this realm like a babe in the woods.
Psychic Babes is your guide through the enthralling world of psychic phenomena, psychedelics, extraterrestrial, the occult, spiritual health and wellbeing, paranormal encounters, energy healing and reprogramming and changing your life for the better. We discuss the intricacies of how we have been programmed to feel helpless yet we are the polar opposite. Psychic Babes is also deeply rooted in health and wellness through natural means. We believe in supporting family owned, sustainable, organic, healthy, effective products that don't break the bank. We believe in the power of holistic living and the impact it has on your spiritual wellbeing and enhancing your psychic gifts. This podcast is a space where spirituality intersects with practicality, where the mystery is made accessible, and where listeners are encouraged to discover and nurture their own gifts.
Join us on this transformative journey as we uncover hidden realms, decode the unknown, and step confidently into the psychic future. Psychic Babes is more than just a podcast; its a community of curious souls eager to explore the depths of their own psychic potential. Tune in, awaken your inner gifts and turn the unfamiliar into the familiar.
Psychic Babes
Unveiling the Mysteries of UFOs and Consciousness with Paul Hynek
Picture a dinner table where talk of UFOs is as common as passing the peas, a scene straight from the childhood of our guest Paul Hynek, son of Dr. J. Allen Hynek. Our latest episode is a riveting journey through the realms of the unexplained, consciousness, and the surprising normalcy of otherworldly concepts. Paul and I, Kirsten Rhode Sandefur, traverse the landscapes of his unique upbringing, the transformative power of psychedelics like DMT, and the extraordinary connections between technology and cosmic intelligence. We swap tales of psychic phenomena and the delicate dance of skepticism and belief, all while maintaining the levity needed to explore such profound topics.
Have you ever considered that a molecule could be a portal to another dimension or that sound technology could unravel the mysteries of the universe? We dig into these tantalizing ideas, sharing personal encounters with DMT that challenge our understanding of reality and consciousness. Paul brings a wealth of experience, merging his business acumen with a deep-rooted legacy in UFO research. From tales of the mysterious Havana Syndrome to the potential of amnesty for government disclosure, we venture into stories that defy ordinary explanations and the scientific perspectives that dare to illuminate them.
As we gear up for the grand finale, the conversation shifts to the practicalities of integrating otherworldly experiences into our earthly lives. We muse over the psychedelic integration, the nuances of different substances, and the power of shared experiences. With Paul's upcoming appearances and the development of new protocols to validate the extraordinary, this episode is more than just a talk; it's an open invitation to expand your mind and join us on a quest to understand the wonders at the intersection of our world and the unknown. So buckle up and prepare to be captivated by a discussion that is anything but terrestrial.
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5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, all engine running liftoff. We have a liftoff. We're in the 21st century. Humans that aren't awake survive in a self-made penitentiary. If you're seeking truth, honesty, integrity, stay away from the polarity. There's only one place to turn to. You can't trust singularity. I'll be that babe spreading higher consciousness, wisdom, because we ain't no one's test subject and we ain't no damn victim. Wake up humanity before it's too late. If you sit where I'm sitting, we got a checkmate. Question everything fairy rings, aliens, reptilians, arcturians, palladians, dragons and even our own origins. Psychic Babes, we empower humankind. Seek the truth, but don't seek through the line. This is how we win. Go within, stand together. Colors can't divide us. Watch our differences. Unite us. Hi guys, welcome to Psychic Babes. I am your host, kirsten Sandefur.
Speaker 1:Today I have an amazing guest. I'm so excited to have him on. His name is Paul Hynek.
Speaker 1:He's the youngest son of J Allen Hynek, an American astronomer best known for investigations of unidentified flying objects for the US Air Force. He's the chairman of the board for the advisory of MUFON, a consultant on history's Project Blue Book. He's the CFO of the Monroe Institute and a frequent speaker on the subject. He's a Wharton MBA and a professor of business at Pepperdine University. Paul has worked in tech and entertainment and is currently a business consultant on many different ventures. He's also a former adjunct professor at Pepperdine and is presently a consultant for the Project Blue Book series, where a character in the series is actually based around his father. He's a brilliant mind who takes the phenomenon very seriously, with a healthy dose of skepticism, humor and an open-mindedness that is a rare combination. I also have the great honor of calling Paul a dear friend that I've had the pleasure of doing ceremony with, and I know you guys will find him just as fascinating as I do. So welcome to the show, paul.
Speaker 2:Hey, my pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1:So I know you've told your dad's story many times, so if people want to check that out, they can listen to other podcasts, but we'll just get into a little bit about it. What was it like to live in a household where the alien topic was just like nightly discussion at the dinner table?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, my father was an astrophysicist, rocket scientist and a professor of astronomy and astrophysics, so he really viewed himself as a scientist and astronomer. Ufos were kind of a late in life side hustle for him. But I don't know life without UFOs. We had flying saucer ornaments on the Christmas tree, ufo discussions probably every day, so it was just normal and I think you know however you grow up is normal to you and it's only in hindsight when you look back and say that was a little bit different. It was great. It was. Our house was kind of the central house for all the kids on the block and it was just adventurous and curious and stimulating and a shitload of fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you know how I raised Seven. Obviously, she's a very different little girl who has these remembrances of experiences being a different being, from another planet or interdimensional, we don't really know but she has these memories. So I'm the same way with her and this is all open discussion and it's like she gets to be free and I think that I think that changes you and it really that it's noticeable in who you are and how you're so open, mindedminded and you don't just shut things down immediately. So I think that's very key, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, there's a saying that's often attributed to Richard Feynman, one of my heroes, brilliant physicist and just wacky dude who played the bongos a lot, and it goes that there are two kinds of people in the world. It goes that there are two kinds of people in the world those who are OK with questions they cannot answer and those who are not OK with their answers being questioned. Wow, I think that breaks up the world into two types. And with UFOs, for example, a lot of people say well, ok, I know that, like the New York Times and the Navy and the government pretty much says they exist, but I don't know where they come from, and so they just stop because that's a very uncomfortable intellectual resting point, that they don't have an answer for it. And I think that's the same with a lot of phenomena that people say, oh, that's interesting, but I don't know what it is, so they just shut down. With a topic like UFOs and other things, you've got to be ready to say, yes, there's something here, and hell if I know what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because if anybody comes to saying they know everything, I'm always a little scratching my head like okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because the world is a mysterious place, and so first you have to be open to the existence of a phenomena, and maybe it goes against your religious beliefs or against the grant that you just got funded at your university. But then you have to keep your mind open to resist the temptation to just grab the best available answer and shove it in the slot, and that can be just as difficult.
Speaker 1:Have you had experiences with the phenomena yourself?
Speaker 2:Not really with, I would say, like a pure UFO experience and kind of like my father, I mean, I would look. If I saw a saucer land, I'm getting on it. I'm going to Zeta Reticuli right. But you know, insofar as I might be able to bring value to the field, it may be more along the lines of my father, albeit a faint echo of what he did, in that I'm not focused on my particular experience or even this or that case, but just sort of the patterns from the accumulated weight of the overall data.
Speaker 1:Well, let's speak about the patterns. What have you noticed is typical in cases that are very credible.
Speaker 2:Well, you often have some type of corroboration whether it's radar cameras, other people, et cetera and what my dad would look for is just the credibility of the witnesses themselves. Are they lucid? Are they consistent over time? Do they have anything to gain, or indeed a lot to lose, from reporting this incident? Are they traumatized? Are they dealing with this in a way that seems normal Well, I don't know if normal is the right word. It seems like it makes sense, given what they're saying happened to them. And so there's so many different kinds of cases, so many different kinds of sightings and, as you know, the sighting of a craft is often not nearly the most important aspect of the overall experience. My father called his first book the UFO Experience, not the UFO Sighting, because there's often people report communication before, during and after the sighting of some kind of craft.
Speaker 1:So you would say that typically so, people would have kind of like psychic experiences like before and after um, because I've heard that as well, that they maintain some sort of knowledge to be able to tap into things that they weren't able to tap into before. What about um? What about some of this like havana syndrome stuff? What do you, what do you make of that? The havana syndrome yeah, well, the thing that they're equating with the phenomena that gets people sick, like what's happening in Skimlock.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I don't know, but I'll tell you a story that was told to me by a very good friend of mine who was in his 90s when he told me this and he was friends with the US ambassador to the Soviet Union and one fine day the Soviet Union, as a token of tribute, presented to him with this great, big, maybe like three foot diameter wooden carving of the seal of the United States and obviously had a lot of craftsmen make this, because it has like fine, intricate little carvings of wood to have like eagle feathers and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So he put it on the wall of his office and he thought it was a very nice gesture. But they started realizing that confidential conversations they'd been having in his office in the embassy were being divulged to the Russians. So they went through all these elaborate procedures to determine what it could be. They finally realized that it was this piece of wood that was somehow behind it. There were no electronics, there was not a, you know, like a bug or anything in it, and what they finally figured out was that the pieces of wood were carved, although looking accurate, like the seal of the United States, to pick up the vibrations from the speech in the room. Then they had a satellite dish trained at the window that could pick up the vibrations from the wood in the carved seal of the United States and they decoded them and they were able to understand the speech. Now the Americans finally figured this out, but they could never figure out how to make one of their own, so this idea of using sound technology with embassies goes back a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, far longer than we think. And do you think that some of these, like I know, they're using, like radio waves and microwave and microwave type technologies to listen in and also, like their energy directed weapons? Essentially right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know I've been to the Sphere in Las Vegas. And just the other night my friend Louis Schwartzberg, who directed the fantastic documentary Fantastic Fungi, I love that.
Speaker 1:I love that movie.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful isn't it so fascinating? It is broadcast on the sphere and I can send you a link to a bunch, because I was staying in the 51st floor of a hotel overlooking it, took a bunch of pictures at night and at sunrise. And inside the sphere the sound system is so precise that if they know there are a group of Chinese in a section, they can broadcast Chinese to that section and English to the next and Russian to the next, with speakers. Wow, and that's in a commercial setting. So this business about Havana syndrome and feeling sick, I think of some kind of sound waves in some case absolutely believable.
Speaker 1:Because it doesn't make sense to me. They're so intelligent that they would do anything that would hurt us. You know, it just doesn't. Something doesn't resonate with me there. And seven always says um. When they take you off planet, they put you in some kind of a goose thing to keep you like healthy um, so that you don't have any like sickness or whatever like maybe the shield from radiation yeah, and what was interesting, I thought she was talking about amniotic fluid and the other day she had like this light bulb go off and she goes it's the blood plasma.
Speaker 1:And I was like what is it? She just really set out. She was like it's blood plasma and she was saying it kind of goes intranasally and like, and then it goes through, like somehow you're able to breathe it. I don't really understand how it works, but that is some kind of technology that they have. They also give it to other beings that are injured and things of that nature, but primarily it's used for humans and she calls it the green goo. So I mean, I really don't think. I think that they've thought this, this is well thought out, right, you know. So I don't think that they have necessarily any intent to hurt us. Now that leads to my next question. So many people think that this is fallen angels or demons or whatever angels. Like what do you think it is?
Speaker 2:I have no idea. I'm not religious, so I don't view things in terms of angels and demons. All I can say is we're very conditioned to think of extraterrestrial visitations, and my father and others have used a word, I think, that I like better, which is meta-terrestrial. Oh, okay, in my view, something beyond our conventional terrestrial origins, that's a big, wide canvas. For all I know there could be extraterrestrials coming here, but there's. I think it's just kind of a sloppy hypothesis and I'm sure if there are extraterrestrials, it's not the totality of the phenomena.
Speaker 2:The issues I have with extraterrestrials first of all, it's not easy to find us, even though we've been beaming episodes of I Love Lucy below these many decades. The universe is a very large place. It's not easy to find us. And then why would they come all this way and not be much more overt, like, have that classic landing on the White House lawn? I don't understand that. Maybe they're interbreeding, maybe they're coming back to check, I don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me, which is why, as you know, I lean much more towards an interdimensional explanation. It just seems to ring true because if it's interdimensional, it's like our cousins and they would know about us because they're essentially us and maybe in some way related to us.
Speaker 1:That's kind of. It's interesting because I've always Seven's always spoken about it as a planet, but the more she gets older she's like she's explained the concept of it like laying like blankets on top of the earth.
Speaker 1:And she said that it's like, it's like they're here, they're here, but it's in another dimension. So she thought it was a different planet because it's like, um, it's like they're here, they're here, but it's in another dimension. So she thought it was a different planet because it's a different. It looks different, completely different, but there are certain things that are similar to here, uh, but it's just elsewhere here, you know, and so I'm like, oh okay, so I think it's kind of a cool way from a child's vocabulary to try to downsize something so complicated into a way that even her mom could understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she comes out with some stuff sometimes that I'm just like okay, babe. But yeah, that was. I was like blanket. I was like what do you mean blankets? She was like like they're late, like you put a blanket on top of each other and I was like, oh, wow, makes sense. So I'm like okay, so they're kind of here. And she was like, yeah, but also not.
Speaker 2:Kind of here. Kind of here is a good way to put it.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:So why have Chad have any speak about any like malevolent experiences that people had that were credible? Well, I think it might be more towards inadvertent terrifying experiences, because, for a lot of people that reported being abducted, they didn't expect or want this and it's the most traumatic experience of their life. Even if the entities seem to be indifferent or somewhat benevolent, it's terrifying. And I don't remember a lot of out and out hostile things. There are some reports, but they're not as common and, frankly, wherever, whenever, however, these entities may come here, if they're really out and out hostile, we'd be gone.
Speaker 1:We'd be gone or we'd be slaves in a salt mine somewhere.
Speaker 2:So at worst, they're manipulating us behind the scenes or neutral to us, and that's how I think the tone of most UFO reports is, along those lines. Even so, it's pretty terrifying to feel like you're waking up and you're on a ship with friendly greys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and again, like what Seven says, though, is you agreed to this in a previous like? You agreed to this before you came here, know? Um, it's always because I asked her about that, because she said she said she said this to me a couple months ago, I videoed it. She said the government has like technology, and what she said is, uh, the seat. She said there's a secret government and she said they have technology that can beam this experience into your mind. She said, uh, she goes.
Speaker 1:If I was watching a movie on those things that like, put the say, I was like a projector, and she was like, yeah, they can do that, but that's not the real thing, that's not like. And I can't remember how she explained it. But she said when you have the experience with us, you actually, like, you get to go in between the dimensions, it's not just like a projection. So that was to me. I'm like, okay, I wonder if you know there are some things that are being manipulated to change it just to get us off track, like it's all of this, you know, so that people stay away from it, so they're afraid of it, so then they don't want to investigate it any further.
Speaker 2:Well, the government has a long history of disinformation of various kinds, so that rings true.
Speaker 1:And speaking of that, how do you think we move forward with that? Like I thought about this today and I'm, like you know, as much as I dislike this I think amnesty like just saying, ok, like you did it.
Speaker 2:You lied, like you know, like, ok, let's move past. It is really the only way to move forward, because they're never otherwise, they're never going to admit it because there's such a fear of persecution, like crimes against humanity. You know that, yeah, well, you know, just like with bitcoin and cryptocurrency, the us government is a bad faith, corrupt central actor and I don't give a rat's ass what they say or what they do. I don't follow any government hearings and you know much respect to my friends Richard Dolan and Steve Bassett and everybody, but I just I think for me, part of my interest is in helping experiencers of various types of phenomena Demonstrate the objective reality of their encounters, and I think it's by doing that that we can build a land bridge between experiencers and mainstream science, and I think if those two communities come together, that's how we push the ball forward and the train will leave the station, and if the government wants to hop on the caboose, they're welcome, but they're not driving the train.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I love that. I love how you said that. That's exactly. That's exactly what gets to happen. We get to come together, we get to work on this together and, yeah, whatever you guys want to do is fine. And then they begin because the phenomenon doesn't want to, it won't interact with them anymore, it wants nothing to do with them.
Speaker 2:And they're not. They're not helpful. And so, since I grew up in a household that was scientific and yet with a very open mind to all sorts of phenomena, I'm comfortable in both of those worlds. I'm a grant reviewer for the national science foundation, but I grew up with psychics and UFO stuff and psychedelics my whole life, so I'm very comfortable with both of those, speak both of those languages and want to bring them together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so let's let's merge into psychedelics, because you and I've had the pleasure of working together in ceremony and you know my thoughts on DMT, because I think it's a technology to be able to contact these energies, and everything I've learned about healing they've taught me and I'm now being able to work with projections, like a holographic projection of the body, and I'm moving energy through and I can only see it with DMT and it's replicatable, because somebody next to me can smoke DMT and see the same projection that I'm seeing. They can't necessarily move the things, because I've been doing it for a while, but it's like this is replicatable, this is studyable, right? So I mean, this is a technology that I mean would you agree that we can use to have contact with these beings?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was turned on to DMT because a friend of mine who crash landed tardigrades on the moon asked me where my dad thought UFOs came from and I said you know, he's a scientist, he's very comfortable saying there's a phenomenon. Where they come from, he didn't know but he thought maybe interdimensional. So my friend said you need to read the book Alien Information Theory.
Speaker 1:I love that book.
Speaker 2:Yes, Sexiest book title ever? Totally no, it's about DMT. So I read that and I read the Spirit Molecule. And that same day I'm talking to this guy who was introduced to me because he said Paul can help you make a movie. Now I talked him out of making that movie and he's talking about what he does and he says oh, and I facilitate DMT sessions. Like I just heard of DMT, he goes well, you want to do some today? So I can't today, I'm going on vacation. But two weeks later I did and you know I've now become good friends with Andrew Gallimore and I presented with him on stage.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, how was that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was awesome and I'm fascinated by his approach. As you know, he's a neuroscientist who makes a very strong case that this is not a hallucinogenic. But, as you said, it's like it's a door, it's a way to communicate with entities that almost everybody who does DMT feel are hyper real and it's like the home. And you know, gallimore has really laid a great intellectual academic path Fabulous.
Speaker 2:And from the very beginning, when, you know, my dad says maybe UFOs are interdimensional, and hey, this is maybe an Easter egg that was left to us, that once we were able to develop the spiritual and now technological awareness to harness this plant medicine. It's almost like, I think, bitcoin sends digital breadcrumbs to others, showing that we put on our big boy pants and big girl skirts and we're ready to convene with others. And so, to me, dmt is unlike any other psychedelic. I've done oh, maybe I have, we'll see if I can find it here. I've got, yeah, to sort of um show my, my, my street cred for psychedelics. That's me a long time ago I love it.
Speaker 1:I have not that's so great total hippie vibes.
Speaker 2:I love it and and you know, as you know, I've had a lot of varied experience with the dmt and it's but unlike other substances it's, you feel like you're in this realm. That's always there and it's like a lot of times the universe stops and says your name and welcomes you and what what a welcoming feeling and then will help you work on trauma or things that you have, and then we'll help you work on trauma or things that you have while it's building the very fabric of the universe.
Speaker 2:And I remember one time I was with you and it was so funny because I remember at first nothing was happening and I'm thinking, oh well, this one maybe is not strong. And you said, oh, it's clocked. And then I did it, and boy, it's clocked. And then I did it, and boy, it was strong. And I remember thinking during that, just matter of factly, wow, okay, my brain chemistry has been so fundamentally rewired I can never go back to normal life. And I just sort of said that in a way like matter of factly. But then 20 minutes later I'm checking traffic on my phone for the 405 totally fine uh, but it's so.
Speaker 2:I I'm, you know. I stopped doing plant medicines and drugs maybe 30 years ago because I'd done a lot of them. I got tired of it and I wasn't getting anything from it. But dmt is unlike anything else I've ever seen in terms of its ability to be therapeutic and just show you things and have you encounter entities that you know. Mind-blowing is not even close to what I would say it is.
Speaker 1:I agree, I've got the.
Speaker 2:DMT stutter that's what I call it.
Speaker 1:What's it like when you can't explain? Or they show you everything and you understand it and then you forget the next second, like oh, I get oh, and you try to explain it. You have no way to explain it.
Speaker 2:One way I described one of my sessions was was imagine you're in like the sphere or some huge dome and there's a thousand monitors. How much of that can you really input? And then of that you remember a fraction of 1%, and that's still perhaps the most transcendental experience of your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, I mean, I feel the same way from the first time I ever did it. And then now, obviously, I work mostly with Chonga, which is the longer acting version which you've done, which is similar to for those who don't know similar to ayahuasca, but there's no purging and it is I call it the businessman's ayahuasca because you can go in two hours and then you're good to go, you know, and there's no like dieta specifically besides meat, and it is the same grandmother energy and and then it's also because it's my energy imbued in it, and a lot of people have experiences with extraterrestrial energy, interdimensional energy. That comes through very much and it's even for people who don't believe those things. So it's very funny. Like you know, I'm doing ceremony and somebody has out there like wait, I saw these aliens and I saw your daughter. I'm like, yeah, I'm like this is normal, but yeah, so how would you say that DMT has changed your life? And like kind of merged with with the work that you do?
Speaker 2:you know, um again, with the DMT stutter. On the one hand it's like the most profound experience that I don't often consciously know how to process or integrate. On the other hand, to me it's not only a way to potentially communicate with the intelligence that's related to UFOs, because the first time I did I asked you know. First I said hi, thanks for having me. You got to be polite and then I just blurted out hey, are you what we perceive to be UFOs and aliens? And I felt because I don't typically see so many entities, but I feel the intelligence all around me and I felt like millions of miles of neurons and synapses fire. And the answer came down to me. We can't explain in a way that you would understand. And I thought to myself well, yeah, if DMT machine elves are related to gray aliens, I can see how I might not understand how that works. And so that was my first experience and I was hooked after that. And so for me it's a way, because I don't know how to summon a UFO like in a close encounter of the fifth kind, but I know how to summon a DMT experience, like one of the things Andrew Gallimore says, is a very interesting thing that if you look at a timeline of human civilization and let's say you call it pre-technological until the telephone or electricity that's an arbitrary distinction, but it works for this example Then. So now we're in the technological phase, that what might come next and in the last year a lot more people would agree with this, for good or bad After we have pre-technological, technological and then post-biological, which is both scary and fascinating at the same time.
Speaker 2:So Galloway makes the point. Well, look, if we're using conventional technology to try to communicate and find aliens through the universe, that means that we think they're in that extremely narrow band of the technological phase. Almost certainly they have transcended and are in a post-biological phase in which our traditional conventional observational and diagnostic mechanisms will find them invisible. But DMT may afford you the chance to see I don't know how to describe it the root level operating system, intelligence of the universe or a super, highly advanced intelligence, certainly more than we are. And so for me, dmt is a way you know everyone else can work on disclosure in the government. Fine, Go ahead, do that. I'll try to do this end around here, to try to unite things, and that's why it's just so fascinating to me, in addition to being so personally rewarding therapeutic yeah, it's that connection, that feel.
Speaker 1:You feel connected to everything and the losing your sense of self at the same time and becoming the all is the most fascinating experience I've ever experienced in life and I continue to experience and I continue to love it. And everybody talks about like ego death. I'm like, no, no, it's more than that. It's like it's like not dying, it's like being born again into the all and everything is you.
Speaker 2:I'm giving a talk at the Contact in the Desert conference called Bitcoin Astronomy. Oh wow, the Nexus of UFOs, DMT and Bitcoin, Because I think they're all right.
Speaker 1:All right, that's awesome. I love it. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:That's so interesting. When you mentioned ego death, I thought of my brother and I went to his house and brought some DMT and so he did it and afterwards I said, how was it? And he goes. Well, freaking weird man. I said, oh, what happened? He goes. I died. I said, oh, you mean like a clinical, dissociative experience? No, I freaking died man like oh, okay well, and he was like, but he's a trooper. So like a half hour later he did it again.
Speaker 2:I said, you know, set your intention. And after he came on, he came back, he stood up and beckoned me to stand up and he hugged me. He goes, man, I love you, man, fucking love you. And I said, oh, how was that? And he goes. You know, my intention was to see the birth of the universe, the big bang, and I was taken on this tour of stars being born, and then I saw like the red hand of god leading me through this cosmic birthing tour. Wow, okay, so that one was a bit better. It goes, yeah, yeah, I. I think I hadn't and he's done a lot of psychedelics, but I think I hadn't really let him know the freight train that was waiting for him because it just hit him so hard.
Speaker 1:But now, did he do a breakthrough? Did? Did he just keep going with it or did you guys just do like a few seconds of it?
Speaker 2:he did. You know, a vape pencil wasn't really that much, but okay, you know, um, yeah, it's still pretty it can be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it can be it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the train leaves the building, and then you better be on board, yeah, and he didn't expect it, but the second time he did and he knew how to you, know, know, jump in the saddle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. That's amazing, that's a really, that's a really beautiful story.
Speaker 2:You know I want to mention something else you mentioned about like people can verify. So the first time I did it I read the spirit molecule and so I knew a lot of these case histories and what I found fascinating was a lot of the case histories of DMT. Reports sort of echoed the early days of ufology and I saw the sort of these patterns and I thought that was fascinating, oh wow.
Speaker 2:And so, but I had already one. If you want to be skeptical, you can say what I've been primed or tainted with, a sort of archetypal experience.
Speaker 1:So the first time.
Speaker 2:I did it. I invited a friend of mine that day who had never even heard of it before, hardly done any psychedelics. Dude was brave enough, he came over and we both did it at the same time and it was Changa. And so after we're coming out of it, I asked my friend hey, what did you experience? And he hadn't read anything about it. He never even heard of DMT. He had a very similar experience to what I have, Without me saying anything because I wanted to hear from him. And then I told him what I saw and he said you know what? That's exactly what I saw. But I was a little bit hesitant because, dude, this stuff is strong, and I kind of stayed on the periphery. But I think you saw, you just jumped in because you were, you were ready for it and you were prepared for it. But it was like you could tell that we were seeing essentially the same thing him on the periphery and me in the middle different aspects of it.
Speaker 1:You know, it's interesting. On new year's eve I did a private retreat in brazil. A couple of physicians and his wife and we were outside. We had taken sassafras, we were doing the heart opening ceremony night and we were sitting outside and we're looking like, just looking at the stars. We're sitting on top of a hot tub not in the hot tub and all of us and all of a sudden the physician goes what is that?
Speaker 1:And I looked up and I saw like I could see a whole, a whole city like scape, there was pyramids and and like, uh, there was a waterfall and like there was a whole city like another place, like up in the clouds. And I was like, are you see? And we were, everybody started, everybody's like what? And then we're pointing out all the same things. All four of us saw the whole thing, and then the clouds would pass over and cover it up and then and then it would, then we would see it again. And we never saw it again after that night it was on New Year's Eve only.
Speaker 1:But this was absolutely like I had no, I had no words for it because we all saw and we were pointing out the the same structures like that's a pyramid right there, okay, that's. And you see the waterfall here, like it, I, you know, I have no words. The only thing that I think that it could have been is like this is the, the dimension, I guess, or wherever where they come from, and it was. It was thinner that night somehow, so we were able to peer into it.
Speaker 1:So I got my DMT pen and then looked at it and it was even super, more crystal clear, like it was like super crystallized and I had this thought like, oh my gosh, I wonder if there's beings, like whatever the energy is, looking back at us, looking back at them, thinking hey, yeah, and it just made me laugh, but it was. I mean, four people verified the exact same experience. I'm like this is scientific.
Speaker 1:This is worthy because this is a scientific method, is all about replication, right right. So I think it's like it behooves science to not assume these are hallucinations, because I don't agree that any of them are hallucinations. I think that we peer into dimensions and peer into things that we can't normally see, that are here, but just not visible, you know, and it makes them all of a sudden visible to you. So when people say, oh, you were hallucinating, I'm like that doesn't really happen to me, like I don't see things that aren't there. There there's energies coagulating together.
Speaker 1:When I keep my eyes open, I'll see energies come into the room. But but I can, I can put my hand into it and I can feel the energy difference and they're always like holographic in nature and I could feel like you feel like stat, the static electricity, and so I know it's a beast, it's like an energy, so it's like okay, and other people can see it, they do the same thing, but like I don't say anything to them, they're like, okay, it has like a round thing here and then a holographic, you know, I mean that's so yeah.
Speaker 2:And here's a DMT cat.
Speaker 1:And Fractal is the same way. Right, right, absolutely. Fractal loves DMT. One time I remember when I had a breakthrough experience, she spoke to me and she told me she was a being from another dimension that came here and I was like, okay, I believe it yeah, you're kind of cool.
Speaker 2:One time I had several people over and I think I've told you that.
Speaker 2:Uh, the song Debbie Prayer is the one I first heard yes, so I can't hear that, unless I'm doing DMT, because it just sends me, and so I had friends over and I'm hosting. It's a very different experience, as you know, and so I figured I'll do. I'm hosting. It's a very different experience, as you know, and so I figured, well, I'll do a little bit, but I really need to make sure everyone's comfortable and everyone's okay. So I saw my friend's playlist and Debbie Prayer was like the third song. I said please don't play that because I won't be, I'll be gone. I'd rather just sort of maintain. She said okay, so she put it like last, like on like 80 songs, so we would never have time to get to it, but it played like number four and it just came on of course, all of a sudden, I just went, oh, and I just grabbed the pen.
Speaker 2:I said I'm, I'm gone, might as well, might as well do this.
Speaker 1:And at that exact minute, dmt cat jumped on my lap yeah, there's something with, with, with the cats, and my fractal, like well, she'll get up and she's like sniffing the pen when I'm doing. It's like they're trying to lick it. I'm like, no, no, no, but there's like she has like a like an inner knowing about. It's very, very interesting and it's like it feels like I mean, that was the only time where she's actually spoken to me but I've, I felt her energy like communicating it. It's like, ah, she gets me, like she, she knows what's going on here and she can even see the energy. She can see that, like when the entities come in the room so she can see that, whatever the beings, that she can see them all, cause she's looking and she's like you know, and so I mean it's it's fascinating, have you?
Speaker 2:when I, when I did the first time, my friend um, I didn't know it because the second, after my friend and I did changa, then our my friend the facilitator said would you guys like to do it again? My friend said no. I said fuck it, let's go. And that was like 45 minutes long and it was not break through somewhere else. It was much more cathartic, like you said, like ayahuasca, without a physical purge but very much a spiritual purge. So it lasted like 45 minutes. And while I'm doing that, as I learned afterwards my friend the facilitator, his stomach was hurting a little bit, so he's laying down a little bit Right. When he did, my cat came and gently walked and laid right on his chakra there.
Speaker 2:Oh wow, wow, it's giving me the chills. What's? Going on with your cat. I said what do you mean? And he told me.
Speaker 1:I said yeah, yeah, I can see that, yep, yep, these animals are very in tune, especially cats, and there is something, there is some kind of connection there for sure. Have you ever had the experience? Have you heard about Danny Goeller's experiment with the 650 nanometer refracted laser?
Speaker 1:And if you project it onto a surface and you smoke dmt, you can see the code a little bit about it, but that's all I know. The code of reality running through it, um, yeah, that's. That's definitely something that you get to try, because it is it's a matrix code and it runs through everything and it's like it's like ticker tape and and it's absolutely fascinating. And what's even more fascinating is when I was just playing with the laser before I'd set it up, seven walks by and she's like oh, there's writing in there. So kids can. Kids can obviously see, they could see that code of reality without anything on board. So you know, that also goes to. I think the kids are like our teachers now. I mean, I think they're way more tapped in than we give them credit and if we just lean into that, let them kind of lead the way, you know, we would have a lot more answers to things.
Speaker 2:Agreed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about your work with the Monroe Institute. What's coming up with that? And is there is there any plan to merge DMT with HemiSync, because I think that would be phenomenal.
Speaker 2:So when I was a kid, there was a guy named Harold Sherman who's a well-known psychic, and my dad took me to the Harold Sherman ESP conference three years in a row. I'm like 10 years old and I remember meeting Robert Monroe and I'd already read Journeys Out of the Body and I was. He was the one person I really wanted to meet there and you know, you never know what someone is going to be like when you meet them in real life, whether an author, movie star, whatever, and he was just salt of the earth, very comfortable in his skin.
Speaker 2:Still you could see trying to cope and grapple with this new reality of his and just such a great guy. I remember him tossing my hair because I'm a little kid and and over the years I read more of his books I bought some of the sound technology from Monroe Institute and just had a very good impression. And then, as you know, at Conscious Life Expo last year I just was walking down seeing exhibitors and there was a booth with Monroe Institute and I just walked up to the guy. Turns out he was the chief marketing officer. I said, hey, you guys need a CFO. He goes, yes. So then I met with the CTO and the CEO and they hired me that weekend at Conscious Life Expo to be their CFO. Love it. And to this day it's been now almost a year and a half and I'm still their CFO. We had a finance committee meeting this morning and we're going strong. Things are going.
Speaker 2:Last year was really rough, from like February to July and then since July of last year we've been on a tear, doing very, very well and they're the coolest folks, very open, they're very interested in ufos. They want me to come and do a ufo program, very open to dmt, and wow, that's as providing technology so that people don't need to do anything else to have transcendental experiences. But if you want to do something else, too great. And so they're just a wonderful organization and we have a tangible goal to reach one percent of the world's population with our technology within 10 years. Wow. So for me, coming from a sort of spiritual upbringing but having a financial side, I love that. I love that quantified thing. So every month I have a tracking report. How many people did we touch this month? How are we doing on our goal to get to 1% of the world's population in 10 years?
Speaker 1:Well, they're doing some fabulous stuff there. I read about the weekend that they had like Chris Bledsoe and they had a bunch of other people there studying, doing the brain scans, and then they had the phenomenon appear and stuff and I was just like wow, I mean wow.
Speaker 2:It's fantastic because it's a evidence-based nonprofit. That's on, you know, trying to push the envelope of human awareness.
Speaker 1:And listen, because it is technology, what they've developed. Yeah, it works, uh it phenomenally. And when I paired it because of course I, everything I do I do with dmt, but, um, when I paired it with dmt, it was like it crystallized things. It was just way faster, way clear, and it was like any resistance I had to anything completely left and I was just fully immersed, like in the experience. It was almost like a like it was happening right in front of my eyes, like the most crazy, vivid, lucid dream, but even more real than that, if that makes sense. So I often pair the technologies together because it's, you know, it, it's phenomenal. So for me it's, it's a great because you me it's.
Speaker 2:It's a great cause. You know, I feel like I'm CFO by day, ufos by night. That's a great example of how a lot of my life now is not purely work or purely play, but it's kind of blends together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it gets. It's all play. Honestly, if you think about it, you have a really fun, exciting life, just like I do, like I love what I do. I get to smoke DMT and work with clients all day and then sometimes I get to do psychic work and then, you know, I get to do ceremonies. Listen, like I love my life and I so I don't work a day in my life and I feel like that similar energy for you because you're just always like, like, just talking on panels and doing this and that and making movies. It's always something different and that's that's the beauty about you know, not not necessarily working in the nine-to-five experience and just kind of doing your own thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that because I view, let's say, ufos and all this kind of cool stuff as my hobby. I'm kind of passive about it, but you know, I make my living in mostly in more conventional things, so I don't have the pressure on me to sort of always come up with a new topic for a conference or things like that, because it's just sort of a fun hobby and I've just just by exploring, have come up with what I think are links with DMT and UFOs and Bitcoin and trying to explore the map between them.
Speaker 1:And I'm so happy you do that, by the way, because it's just like I've wanted to bridge the two, because I've always like four years ago I was like this, is there's a connection here. And then when I read Alien, information, information theory, I was like so proud of gallimore's like for standing up, saying that, because so many people ridiculed and they're like you're nuts. And I was like he's a genius. I said like wow, and you know, now people are just coming around. I'm like he's a pioneer, absolutely like, because he explained it in the book. It's very specific and it's very organized and there's pictures that described it very clearly, how the system works and how it crosses over, and it's like okay, yeah, makes complete sense to me.
Speaker 1:And then how he describes the waking state and the dream state and then the, the dmst state is something in kind of in between you're not kind of dreaming, but you're not awake but it's even more real than sometimes, than this reality. It becomes hyper real. You know, and I think, um, you know, mushrooms have that similar psilocybin has that that similar feeling, not not as meta as as DMT is. But you've also done Bufo. What was your experience with Bufo?
Speaker 2:DMT is, but you've also done Bufo. What was your experience with Bufo? So well, I've done natural and synthetic and the synthetic? I don't, I don't remember anything from it, but I felt like I was able to process that more than other ones, so it was very strange.
Speaker 1:How so, when you may have to process it?
Speaker 2:Well, like I remember, just like for weeks afterwards, just sort of out of the corner of my eye, just feeling like a sensation of it.
Speaker 2:Oh okay, more in my waking state and with natural bufo, oh my gosh, it's like, let's say, doing DMT is like skydiving and they tell you scream because you forget to breathe when you're skydiving, because when you jump out, if you haven't done it, you're going so so much faster, there's so much more wind than you expect, it's so overwhelming, and it's like dmt, like my friend the first time he did this wonderful invocation, as you know. And then at the end he said forget everything. I just said breathe and enjoy. Yeah, and I always surrender, I always put my palms up. I'm ready for it all, but I'll stop breathing. I'll just because I get. I just can't help it. And then I'll think to myself why is the music stopped? Oh, that's right, I've stopped time because I stopped breathing. Why don't I breathe again? Yeah, that's a good idea and so. But if, like taking DMT you know Changa is like jumping out of a plane, taking is like jumping out of a plane. Taking Bufo is like jumping out of a plane and going straight up.
Speaker 1:It's just so Great analogy.
Speaker 2:So overwhelming and it's just. I couldn't understand how anything could be stronger than Changa, like, how could you have more stimulation than that? Well, you can't, and it's just nuts. Although Changa I particularly like because I think for me, having done you know, uh, short puffs on a vape pen for more of a right, described to you as like the augmented reality version, I like the way that you frame this, that it's not necessarily vr, where you go in the analog creature, goes into, say, the digital world, or augmented reality, where you have the overlays here, so you can help incorporate this and process it in your real life, and I think that's extremely valuable and you're very unique in having said that to me. I've never heard anybody else say that.
Speaker 2:And so that whole spectrum, from like natural bufo to short puffs on a vape pen, there's a whole spectrum of things in the between. As you know, changa, I think, is great, or a strong vape pen, because that's the level, I think, where you can still maintain enough presence about you and seek to communicate, whereas for me it's just, and remember it, me, and yeah, and remember it, yeah, remember it right, because bufo is just. You know like I remember my friend saying what's your intention and my intention is always try to help demonstrate the objective reality of this. But it's not like in bufo. You're sitting down having scones and having a polite conversation. You're just like shot out of a cannon and you're just like trying to maintain the charge of your ego, right, but Changa is just and maybe it's because I've done it more, but it's just more like bam, you're there and like okay, okay, all right, okay, settle down. Why don't you take a breath? Okay, now, what are we here for?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the body's doing all these fabulous things, like letting go of all the energy and the shaking and letting go of trauma, and you have no awareness of it. It's just like, oh, whatever's going on here, you're doing something else inside. You're like having, you know, chatting with beings, and your body's like, oh, let me go with all the trauma. That's why I like it, because it's like, wow, you get, I'm all about efficiency and it is very efficient, you know, with the way that it works.
Speaker 2:And especially if you have an intention of something like that and you're very, you're absolutely correct in being able to remember it as well.
Speaker 1:So I think strong vape pen and Changa is great, for I don't think you can do chonga and say, oh, that was really weak tea, man, I just didn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think I'm going to say that yet especially when I was with you and I thought, okay, this is weak. No, because it's clogged.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, not weak at all that was funny, yeah, that was funny. Yeah, no, never, never had anybody make that comment. But most people like, oh, that was, that was crazy, that was, that was a lot, that was amazing.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I don't, yeah, I don't think you're gonna hear people say you know I've smoked stronger pot than that.
Speaker 1:No, it's just not no yeah, I would say a boga, I mean haven't, I haven't done a boga, but I would say some people will say that a boga is the strongest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've also heard people say about salvia too, and I want to try everything. But like and also like, I met a friend. This guy introduced me to this guy. He said oh, you should talk to Paul. He goes around the world, speaks about interesting things. And he said what do you talk about? I said well, ufos, bitcoin, dmt. He goes oh hey, I have Pablo Escobar's secret ketamine. You want to try some?
Speaker 1:I'm like okay, so the next day I did it.
Speaker 2:And at least maybe the version he had not my jam, not my jam at all, and he told me that DMT was not his thing. He just always felt, you know, very clipped.
Speaker 1:Because he's got a lot of stuck energy. People that have stuck energy, they feel very tight. Oh okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so I'd like to try Iboga and Salvia. But I really think I've settled in my lane. I think I've found my jam, which is DMT, and it's't. It's hard to imagine needing more, but it's interesting to try different things because they each have something I can teach you. But it's not like I say, oh, dmt is not enriching enough, I really need something else. No, it's just kind of curiosity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and DMT teaches me something every day. Like I mean I do work with it daily, I am the oddball. And people are like how can you use it? I mean don't you like, how do you maintain sanity? I'm like, well, I'm actually more sane. That's not how it works. It brings so much more clarity and vision to things and because I work with it in my healing stuff, I'm not like you're in no way impaired. So I mean you know that, enhan impaired. So I mean you know that. But yeah, absolutely, absolutely enhanced. I mean I wouldn't go drive with it. But you know, like in my house it's completely I'm more hyper aware of everything that's going on, not less aware.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, like you said, the businessman's high. So you come out of it and it's not like LSD or these other ones where it takes a long time for it to leave your system. It's you're transported to whatever you experienced. Then you have a couple minutes, or at least in my experience, you have a couple minutes of here and there, back and forth and sort of the wall is still pulsing, and then like water draining out of a cup, and then you're back and you're just trying to integrate the fantastic experience you just had.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the most important part is integration, because these experiences are all well and great, but if you don't know how to process it, like I had one person who who came to me, I didn't serve him, he served ayahuasca. He came back thinking he was jesus christ and, um, yes, and christ consciousness. But they didn't explain this to him. So he actually thought he was Jesus Christ and he told his ex-wife that who, they were divorced because kids taken away for a little while. So it came to me to have to help, you know, piece it back together. And it was like, oh gosh, yes, and but like integration.
Speaker 1:This is why it's so important to like vet your practitioner and know, like you know, like this is the most important piece, because had he had a proper integration, like I said, I would have sat him down and been like, okay, I understand the experience that you had, but this is Christ consciousness. Like you are not the Jesus. You know, like you are maybe a thumbnail of of Jesus and you're experiencing what it's like to walk in his shoes so you can have his visions, but you are not the Christ incarnate.
Speaker 2:You know, I had kind of the opposite experience. So after my first experience I said are you related to UFOs? Yes, essentially. The next time I went back and I was about to ask the question again, which is one of the most important questions for humans and deeply resonant for my family as I was starting to ask the question, I myself stopped and said why do you want to bring that cheap shit here? Why do you want to bring that cheap shit here? Because I was in such a magnificent place and the very best of my consciousness was not enough to warrant interrupting them. That's how I felt Wow. And then afterwards I'm like what the hell?
Speaker 1:Why did?
Speaker 2:that happen.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like that it's very funny, especially when you're deep in it. It's kind of like that it's very funny. It's when, especially when you're deep in it, it's very overwhelming. You for, like, you forget to ask those things.
Speaker 2:But then also you're like that sounds really silly, like in this expansive state it sounds very small and I remember one time with you was the first time I felt the sensation which I've had several times since that this is, it's just like this implacable root level operating system, intelligence of the universe and so far beyond our petty concerns here. And I remember thinking I was seeing, like all these I don't know, eight dimensional kaleidoscopic things and I'm like almost like in a spaceship zooming through. And I remember thinking I could have this exact vantage point and see these exact things for the rest of eternity and be forever, eternally stimulated. This exact thing, and not like venture off and talk to somebody else, no, this exact thing I'm seeing now for eternity, would be immensely rewarding.
Speaker 1:Because there's information in all of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, joe Rogan had a great way to describe it. You know, joe Rogan had a great way to describe it that DMT is complex geometric patterns built of love and understanding.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Isn't that beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. And there's always for me it's like when I'm going through those fractals, I'm getting information that I don't really realize till later on. It's like oh, oh, oh, and then something will remind me. It's like that's what that was and I'm not even sure. I guess you know this is like the this is where the downloads are, like in there, I guess. But um, it's just you. You sort of think it's like and it's so beautiful's just like, oh, wow, this is so amazing and you, just you feel the love. But then you know, you come out the other side and then I'm sitting because I always write afterwards and I'm writing and then all of a sudden it's like all of this stuff pours out of me. That's like the crazy stuff about the universe and like how it developed into the planet. So it's just like, oh, how, where did that come from? It's like, all of a sudden, you have this knowledge, and the only other way I've heard about that happening with people is when they have experiences with the phenomenon.
Speaker 1:Right now just dmt stuttering again I mean because that's when you look at all of, like the reports and things like that, uh, most of them come back. Or when they're, they come back with some crazy knowledge, like visit, you know quantum physics, or they know mathematics like crazy formulas. There's no possible way they could, they could know. So because I always look for patterning and things like what, what are the patterns, you know, how do they relate together, how do they correlate?
Speaker 2:so that that's something that interests me, because I've always, and to me it's the exact opposite of cocaine, which I think is insufferable and bad for your heart so I would never do it.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, same same. I'm like how do people do this? This is not fun, I don't. Yeah, I was in.
Speaker 2:I was in college and a friend of mine got a bunch. He said write your name, no, your whole name and your middle name. So I wrote Paul Curtis Hynek and I started all that and I remember thinking I've just solved the unified field theory of physics. And I started writing it all down. I said do I have a tuxedo to accept my Nobel Prize? Because it's going to happen within a week. They a tuxedo to accept my Nobel Prize? Because it's going to happen within a week. They're going to fast track this shit. I better come up with a name for this new theory and all this. I'm like, oh my God.
Speaker 2:And then I passed out, like at 6 am, whatever. I wake up like 3 in the afternoon. I'm like, oh my God, I've written down the secret to the universe, completely knowledgeable gibberish. I'm a French major, so what am I going to understand about physics? But it was and that's the problem that you're with people doing coke, they all. They're all amped up because there's amphetamine and they're all think they're smarter than they are and all making zero sense like.
Speaker 2:So I'm usually the sober one there, I'm like uh-huh, uh-huh.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, this is oh oh no.
Speaker 2:And DMT is the opposite. People come out of it. They're not like, oh my God, I got to do this. They're like whoa, you know, they're just trying to sort it out. Yeah, exact opposite.
Speaker 1:And it does some rewiring in the brain, like it, you know, with the it undoes programs and it, you know, it allows new ones to come in and change behaviors. And that's really interesting to me because this is I started using it because I was, you know, working on myself and then it started to let into my healing journey of of teaching, of learning how to heal other people. After seven started and then it started showing me this, this whole new thing that opened up and I was just like this can't, this can't possibly be real. Like, why is this working? And I'm still fascinated by it. I'm like this is so crazy. And the thing is is like and it works, whether you believe it does or not.
Speaker 1:Like, whenever I do it it doesn't matter, you don't have to have any. The only time it doesn't work is if somebody has metal in their body. Oh really, make that, make sense. I don't know, I don't know what that has to do. I don't know.
Speaker 2:They haven't really said about whether you believe it or not. I think it was linus pauling, famous scientist, who had a horseshoe above the doorway to his office at a university and someone said, dr Poling, surely you don't believe in it? And he said you don't have to believe in it for it to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. These people come to me all the time. They're like well, I don't know if I really believe in this. It's like it's OK, it's fine, you just sit there. You just sit there Like it knows what to do.
Speaker 2:It knows best, it believes in you.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that it believes in you.
Speaker 2:I was with a friend last weekend and she said yeah, I've tried things. I think I'm just impervious to these things. I said no, you haven't tried this. That's what I was going to say, too. Said no, you haven't tried this. I'd be willing to bet more money than I have that you're not really impervious to this.
Speaker 1:And surprise, surprise, she was not she yeah, I have only had one experience with a client who it didn't work for, and what happened? What did they? She did not disclose that she was on a antidepressant, which which obviously it's fine, because it's not Changa Like I go through more. You know a very deeper dive when people are doing.
Speaker 2:I've seen people on antidepressants tried and feel nothing and I'm going to be with a friend soon who is just off antidepressants, who is very happy to now try it.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I mean it's phenomenal and listen like we can still work with people like that around. Certain kinds like Lamictal works in the background, that kind of stuff like that's fine, but there are certain ones like Demi-Ala inhibitors.
Speaker 2:It just boop, nothing like it does nothing, I don't have anything to plug. Nothing like it does nothing, I don't have anything to plug.
Speaker 1:well, I'm going to be on coast to coast on sunday night, I guess I am oh, but fascinating what are you talking?
Speaker 2:about, uh, I don't know, we'll see. Okay, I have no idea, um, but the one plug I want to give is for you, um, because I've done therapy with you and you're amazing. Thank you, paul. You know it's. It's even though I've done DMT before. And who was it? I heard to say this it was Terrence McKenna, the godfather of DMT, who said he was terrified every time he did.
Speaker 2:It made me feel a lot better, because I I'll get nervous and but you incorporate and, like I said, your your your modality of using it in the real world well, in this world and not necessarily going to another realm. Yeah, I'd never even considered that before. But then also the way that you present it and help integrate, like you said, and make it such bonafide therapeutic mechanism, it's just I've not seen that before and I just want to say from my heart to yours you're wonderful.
Speaker 1:Thank you, you are definitely wonderful as well. When we met at the Life Conscious Expo, I was so excited because I was obsessed with your dad and we were sitting at dinner and it was so funny. Like we ended up. I don't even remember how it got brought up, but I was like DMT and we were like oh, you do DMT.
Speaker 2:I think it was my friend who I was just yakking about DMT.
Speaker 1:And I happened to overhear and I was like did you say DMT? That's exactly what happened. Yeah, yeah. And then we were like okay, I have DMT here, let's go play. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I definitely feel the same. I mean, and you are one of the one of the most brilliant minds I know and it's always amazing to chat with you and to catch up with you, because you've always got these amazing things going on and you have this grounded perspective that I just love. That's like it's such a humorous thing. You know, this topic can get very polarizing to people, as you very well know, the UFO topic and psychedelics too, you know.
Speaker 1:But it can be very polarizing.
Speaker 2:People's like, no, this is what this is. I mean, I've had people on tiktok say like your daughter's talking to demons, and I'm like okay, whatever, yeah, and, and I see that you know I'll be at a ufo conference, and maybe less so now because I I talk about a lot. But people say things to me like uh, first of all, like, why do you do dmt? Man, you can just get all this stuff with meditation. And my thought is look, I got too much monkey mind to sit around and do meditation. This doesn't work for me and I don't know that. You get to where I go with dmt. If you are happy with whatever you're doing and however you're going someplace, great, but if you haven't done dmt, you don't know what it's like you have no business speaking about it if you haven't done it, because it is completely different than anything else.
Speaker 1:And they'll what it's like. You have no business speaking about it if you haven't done it, because it is completely different than anything else.
Speaker 2:And they'll say it's like some cheap shortcut. No, just, you know, life has a lot of different paths and if you don't have it taken this path, you don't know. The other thing I'll hear is Paul man, we're here at a UFO conference talking about real shit. Why do you want to get weird and talk about DMT and Bitcoin?
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Let's talk about it.
Speaker 2:I get that a lot, man. Why do you talk about that stuff, man? We're here to talk about UFOs, okay, this gets to my feeling that, especially in the Western mind, we tend to classify and name that. You know, especially in the western mind we tend to classify, name things and put them in buckets, categories, and clearly, yeah, I and you don't think that dmt, machine, elves and aliens and ghosts and whatever else are necessarily different phenomena. I think there could be a substrate of eternal consciousness that either manifests itself in different ways at different times, for different reasons, or maybe not necessarily manifesting in different ways, but based on people's biases and perceptions, they perceive in radically different ways. And I don't know. There could be different phenomena and that common substrate.
Speaker 1:And we're both open to all of them.
Speaker 2:And other dimensions.
Speaker 1:I don't know. That's the thing I love about the… you and I are both open to all of those possibilities. We're like, yeah, and that's… yes and Perfect.
Speaker 2:Because we're comfortable with questions we can't answer.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's very true, and it's always. It's always, it's always. How do I say this? People who are very God, jesus, this way, that way, and my response is always I'm a little confused, because wasn't Jesus like what you're saying? You know you represent, wasn't he not judgmental? Didn't he like hang out with hookers and you know, like he was accepting of everybody, right, he didn't judge people. So why are you judging what I'm doing If it's not inhibiting on your life? It's not. In fact, me and my daughter do good things for people, so I'm really confused as to why this is a problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, I think DMT is a yes and experience it's not a but or okay.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Because it's it's. It may answer some questions for you, it may help you integrate and process things, but it's well hats off to you if you take a lot of DMT and you think you understand it all, because I don't even think that's the point. I think there's always something more for you to take away from it. So it's yes and yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's so funny. You say that, uh, eve, my mentor and I that this is always our thing. Yes and yes, and this is what. This is the phrase that we use always. Because it's true, because what might be true for one person or my it might, it might show up in a different way. It's, it's probably part of the same thing, but it's just a different version of it or an aspect of yourself that interprets it in a different way. And it's all fine, because we don't know and there's no way to know for sure. And you know, so you know because I mean, hopefully we're, we're studying this more and more so we will understand it, uh, even clearer in the coming years.
Speaker 1:Like you saw the experiment that I did with the blood, right where you looked, we looked at the live blood under a microscope and then, um, after you smoked DMT, they're like, they go back to like this perfect shape and completely healthy, you know no clumping together and all of that, and then they start to kind of go back to their you know like unhealthy form and that, but you talk to your cells and then they stay, it stays healthy, and that's like to me it was like mind-blowing because I was like DMT told me this was going to happen. It was like this is exactly what you're going to do. The here are the steps. Go do this and then watch what happens. And I was like there's no way. And I even told the gentleman who was I asked to do the experiment with me, who does the microscopy? He was like there's no way, that's happening. And I'm like can you just humor me please? And he was like okay. And then when it happened, we were like what, what? And so it was like okay.
Speaker 1:So now I know, if I talk to my cells every day and say like you're so healthy, you're so beautiful, oh my gosh, I love you. You're so strong. This works, because dmt showed me that it does and and we have proof of that. So it's like you know, yeah, there's something to learn every day. There's so many layers with it, there's so many different ways that, and I think we're going to cover even new ways to use it.
Speaker 1:Who knows, like maybe we'll use it to transport ourselves to different places, like full on, like in, like spaceships, like maybe it's the propulsion system. I have no idea, but that's the beauty of it. It's like it's never ending and I love learning new things. That's my favorite thing to do discovering and and you know, and, and just I'm like a little kid and a candy store with it, and so it's. You know it's like forever going to be, yeah, my thing and it sounds like it's. You know it's like forever going to be, yeah, my thing, and it sounds like it's your thing too. But you're right, there are certain people that it's not, it's definitely not their thing.
Speaker 2:That are like yeah, there are people that are closed off, but also people that just need to be eased into it because they're not ready to surrender. Yeah, Because it's hard to, unless you've done psychedelics before and maybe have a little scar tissue from some not good experiences like I've had some bad trips and if you have that, you're much more able to withstand something overwhelming. And you know we have a tendency to think of good and bad. But I think for me, in my experience with DMT, there is no binary spectrum that I can use to describe it.
Speaker 2:It just is there, it's not good or bad, but it's so overwhelming and if you've had some experience with psychedelics or other things in your life where it was overwhelming maybe it's a roller coaster, I don't know, something that's overwhelming and you're able to say this too shall pass that allows you to sort of delve in deeper and by doing that it's like it's actually like taking a cold shower in the morning, which I do.
Speaker 2:I do too, and cool, and you know, I saw this TikTok, I forget her name, she's a psychologist and she started off by saying pleasure is a downer. I'm like, OK, you hooked me, I want to learn more. And she said, like empty pleasure, like eating an ice cream. Oh yeah, ok, ok, like empty pleasure, like eating an ice cream? Oh yeah, okay. Okay, because overall your endorphins will go down farther. They'll spike but they'll go down farther. But if you take a cold shower, it doesn't feel great.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's awful, but it feels amazing after afterwards for a longer there's a long tail of endorphins going up, longer there's a long tail of endorphins going up, and so a lot of people won't take a cold shower because it's not pleasant, but you build up that sort of willpower tissue and it's the same kind of thing.
Speaker 2:I mean, not all my sessions with dmt are what I would consider pleasant, but I'm not there for titillation, yeah, and therefore learning and expansion and you know healing and you've seen, you know it's healing. It may not be pleasant, that's not the point and so. But we're so used to instant gratification or like people take ecstasy because they just want to feel happy and all that. But if you approach DMT not just as wow, some far out trip, but something that has bona fide therapeutic and insight experiences, and they're going to be a very different kind, different times, different settings, different people, different music, very different kind, different times, different settings, different people, different music and if you're able to let go and surrender and breathe and just lean into the experience, there's so much richness there for everybody.
Speaker 1:You know, I tell people. It's like you can do this one or two ways, just like any relationship. You can have a one night stand and DMT will fuck you. It will, it will.
Speaker 1:Or you can have a one-night stand and DMT will fuck you like it, will, it will or you can develop a relationship and it will romance you and it'll wine you and indign you and it'll show you things and it'll give you this beautiful experience that sometimes it'll be rough but it'll be amazing. Or you're gonna be a one-night stand and like, yeah, it's okay, but yeah, you know. So you have the, you have the choice. So I always say choose to build a relationship with it, because there's a lot of people like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've done it one time, it's I'm good, like okay yeah, it's not really a to-do list check off.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, it's basically, you know, I feel like the watching the fabric of the universe being created and that doesn't really get tiring. It doesn't feel like, okay, been there, done that. It's more like been there, got to go back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, want to know more. Like, let's keep going. Yes, I am, yes, I am yes and absolutely so. What's coming up for you, paul? What can? Where can people see you? Like, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:um, oh, right, so, um, yeah, so sunday night, uh, 10 am or 10 pm, pacific is coast to coast. Um. Have a bunch of other podcasts coming up before contacting the desert. Have one on saturday, I forget what it is, um, and then contacting the. I have a bunch of other podcasts coming up before Contact in the Desert. I have one on Saturday, I forget what it is. And then Contact in the Desert is May 30th through June 4th and I'm doing eight presentations and panels there.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Including the Bitcoin astronomy the.
Speaker 1:DMT oh wow, wow, wow.
Speaker 2:including the bitcoin dmt oh wow, that yeah, another one I'm doing is the protocol I'm developing for people that do dmt or ufos or whatever, to actually demonstrate the objective reality of the experience now a lot of people explain that.
Speaker 1:So, okay, explain. What do you mean? The protocol, what? Okay?
Speaker 2:so my father came up with close encounters of first, second, third kind which described the nature of the experience. It doesn't speak, it wasn't designed to, and it doesn't speak to the nature of the evidence, more or less, but also the strength of the evidence. Okay, now, in the UFO field we have all kinds of evidence eyewitness, reports and photographs and weird materials and things like this but it hasn't moved the needle for mainstream science. So what I'm trying to do is for those who want, because a lot of experiencers don't care about other people validating their experience they couldn't care less, but some do. Other people validated their experience they couldn't care less, but some do. And I've met thousands of people who say they've been given messages. Okay, if you've been given a message and you've been chosen as a vehicle to amplify this, I can help you. So for them, instead of us having our experiences and then going to science and say, hey, what do you think of this? No, instead inculcating in experience or communities and processing Science-friendly ways like ask these questions about mathematics or other verifiable information, so we won't feel that the scientists are moving the goalposts and the scientists will feel like well, now I understand what you're saying. Wow, I've developed a system of different types of evidence and different levels of how strong that is.
Speaker 2:And you know, there's a guy named Marco Rodriguez, who I think we've talked about, who developed a protocol specifically for DMT of like asking the entities to factor a very large prime number, which you couldn't do, or you can ask them to solve one of the unsolved math problems. So I know Michael Shermer is a friend of mine, he's the founder of Skeptic Magazine. Or Seth Shostak, neil deGrasse Tyson, these guys they're not closed-minded, they just haven't seen evidence that they consider compelling. If I go to Michael Shermer and I say, look, because of a DMT experience or UFO experience that I or somebody else had, we have now solved one of the seven unsolved math problems of the Millennium Institute, he won't say, well, that proves aliens. He will say that's interesting that you or someone you know has knowledge that no human has ever had before. I want to learn more.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's interesting and we can do more of those, and you know to the point that you made about someone else seeing the same thing. One of the things that, marco rodrig is. Look. Another layer of this is I asked a question that can be sort of mathematically verified and then you go in and you bring back the answer to show that transitive nature.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, we do that a lot with the MT. People come to me, they ask me and I go in and then I come back and I deliver the answer. Like you know, people come to me, they ask me and I go and then I come back and I deliver the answer. And I have to be quite honest, like I don't think and this has nothing to do with me, because this is really the DMT.
Speaker 2:I don't, it's not really wrong, and so that's, that's the kind of thing that speaks the language of science. So, you know, I grew up in science and UFOs and weird shit. That's what I'm interested in doing. So that's, that's awesome, you know, and that's why I do dmt, because I think it is a a way to access that intelligence that has told me in no uncertain words that there is a relationship between that and ufos, no uncertain words that there is a relationship between that and UFOs.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, the whole way that they showed me how the avatar healing thing works is they showed me it walked me, had me go into front of a mirror and they're like okay, you can make yourself disappear. And I'm like what? And they're like, no, you can, this is just an avatar, this is a valence. And I was like I don't really understand. And they told me what the what they had me say in my mind over again I'm not real, I'm a thought form. I'm not real, I'm a thought form. And I started to fractal away and I was like what? And? But here's the thing If you smoke DMT and you do that with me, you will see me fractal away as well.
Speaker 1:The more experience but here's another level of it the more experience you have with DMT, the more of a relationship you have with it, the stronger the experience will be for you. Like half of my face will disappear or like sometimes it'll just be some of it. So and this is another thing I can also smoke DMT and share the experience with you without you even smoking it Is. I smoke it and I share it. I can share it through the eyes.
Speaker 2:And it's a, it's a consciousness.
Speaker 1:So this proof is proof to me. We are all connected, otherwise this wouldn't be possible. Yeah, right, exactly, we are all connected to one source of energy. And because, otherwise, how? Would? How would that happen? Yeah, so it's like the, these kinds of things.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited that you're doing stuff like this, because I'm writing a whole book on like these DMT methods and all the DMT showed me so many crazy things to do, like, ok, do you want to know who your guides are? Like, what they look like? And then you go in front of the mirror and you ask like they'll, they'll come through for you, like they'll show themselves to you. Obviously, most of them aren't in a physical form, but it helps. It helps the mind, give understanding and reference points to what energy am I speaking to, right, so they may not be physical, but they will give themselves a physical presence for you so that you can, because it helps the mind, right? So you know those kinds of things. And then the, the also they were showing me. This is what shamans knew how to do this. They knew how to disappear. They, without DMT, they knew how to do these things. Indigenous people knew how to do this. They knew how to disappear without DMT. They knew how to do these things. Indigenous people knew how to disappear back in the day and they knew how to shape, shift into other things. And they're showing me how to do all these things. It's so interesting.
Speaker 1:So it's like I'm documenting all of the different things that they're showing me how to do, because they all have applications. They all have applications in the real life. Let's say I'm in a you know, I'm in New York city and I feel like I'm going to be mugged, like what am I going to do in that moment? I can pull up as much DMT as I can and try to make myself disappear, and does it work? I don't know. I'm not going to test that out, but I can tell you people can. People have been able to see like weird stuff happen with me and I kind of it's almost like I go away a little bit without smoking DMT too.
Speaker 1:So there's there's applications for all of this in real life, because otherwise it's like, okay, that's cool, but you know, what are we going to do with it? Right, yeah, so that's awesome. That's awesome. And I feel like I mean, obviously, you know, our paths are going to merge again like cause we were so in the same, in the same thing and doing a lot of similar, similar things. So, um, this was so I'm so glad I had you. It was such a fascinating conversation, as it always is whenever I speak with you, but so thank you so much for coming on and, um, yeah, so so contact in the desert, um, and then you're going to be on. Um, uh, what was it again the show uh Coast to Coast.
Speaker 1:Coast to Coast, and that's Wednesday.
Speaker 2:Sunday at 10 pm.
Speaker 1:Sunday at 10 pm. Okay, and yeah, if yeah, definitely let me know what's, what's, what's going on with you in the future and let's let's keep in touch because, yeah, let's, let's get together and smoke some DMT together. All right, Paul, Thanks so much okay all right bye.
