33: Charging Forward: Inside 8Inks's Lithium-Ion Battery manufacturing innovation

In this episode, we're taking a deep dive into the realm of energy storage with a particular focus on advanced battery designs.

Joining us is Paul, the visionary mind behind 8inks, a company committed to revolutionizing the lithium-ion battery manufacturing process. Paul will walk us through the challenges and opportunities in scalable battery manufacturing, and how 8inks is addressing the need for efficient energy storage solutions.

HIs journey into battery development began during his time at ETH Zurich, where he participated in a competition to build the best electric race car.  Later he conducted research on battery materials in California. 

This episode is for you, if you would like to understand more about battery technology, the evolution of lithium batteries and possible future applications. But it also highlights the limitation of lithium as an energy storage system. 

The following description is generated by beta AI :) 

Prepare to be energized as we journey alongside Paul from 8inks, who's sparking revolutionary changes in the world of energy storage. From his formative days at ETH Zurich to his groundbreaking contributions today, Paul shares the narrative of lithium-ion batteries – their rise to prominence and the art of perfecting cell selection. As we navigate the complex landscape of battery integration, Paul's insights illuminate the engineering conundrums and material science considerations that are propelling us toward a sustainable future. 

This episode isn't just about the 'what' – it's about the 'how'. Paul unveils 8INX's pioneering multi-layer curtain coating technique, poised to dramatically boost electrode structures and battery performance. Behind the scenes of battery production, we witness the transition from lab-scale innovation to the tantalizing prospect of mass production, which could ultimately slash manufacturing costs. Join us as we unpack these advancements that could redefine energy storage systems and set new benchmarks for the industry, all through the lens of 8INX's visionary approach.

Please check out show notes and background information: www.sustainnow.ch
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Transcript

Narrator: 0:00

You are listening to Sustain Now. In this podcast, you will learn from successful entrepreneurs and scientists about the newest climate change solutions to address the climate crisis, from food and agri-tech over energy material innovation to circular economy. This non-profit podcast is hosted by Frederica. She is a tech entrepreneur and climate enthusiast. You can find show notes and background information on wwwsustainnowch. Enjoy the show.

Friederike: 0:35

Welcome back to Sustain Now podcast, where you learn from the news sustainable innovations from founders and scientists. Today, we're taking a deep dive into the realm of energy storage, with a particular focus on advanced battery designs. Joining us is Paul, the visionary mind behind 8inks, a company committed to revolutionizing the lithium battery manufacturing process. Paul will walk us through the challenges and opportunities in scalable battery manufacturing and how 8INX is addressing the need for efficient energy storage solutions. His journey into battery development began during his time at ETH Zurich, where he participated in a competition to build the best electric race car. Later, he conducted research on battery materials in California car. Later, he conducted research on battery materials in California. This episode is for you if you would like to understand more about battery technology, the evolution of lithium batteries and possible future application, but it also highlights the limitations of lithium as an energy storage system. With further ado, let's jump into the episode. With further ado, let's jump into the episode. Hello Paul, Welcome to Sustain Now podcast.

Paul: 1:50

Hi, friederike, thank you so much for having me. Great to be here.

Friederike: 1:53

Today we will talk about batteries, but before we dive into the topic, how did you get interested in the first place into battery development?

Paul: 2:02

During my bachelor studies at ETH Zurich, I was part of the Formula Student Club, the academic motorsport racing in Zurich, and this was the time where we developed as students an electric race car. And back then that's already 10 years past 10 years in the past I was in charge of designing the battery pack for this electric race car and we built and designed a roughly six kilowatt hour lithium ion battery to power a 160 kilowatt electric race car, and we all did all that within one year and we competed against other academics teams across Europe, and this was the hook for me about lithium-ion batteries.

Friederike: 2:47

How cool is that? Did you drive it as well?

Paul: 2:49

Actually I never got to drive it, but for me the engineering was just as much fun.

Friederike: 2:55

That's amazing. And did you win?

Paul: 2:58

There were a couple of races where we won we placed first in Silverstone in the UK and also in Italy and a couple of second places as well, but overall it was a very successful season for us as a team.

Friederike: 3:10

That's amazing. So it was not only just one race. You actually went to the other where usually Formula One races are happening. You actually went there and were on the tracks racing for a year.

Paul: 3:20

Yes, exactly. So the whole program starts out with a concept and design phase, so every team is required to design and build the car from scratch. And it starts with the construction and process, but also then the manufacturing and building and, lastly, testing and competing as well. Yes, all that within one year.

Friederike: 3:41

Wow, very cool. And how did you get onto that topic that you actually helped to design the battery?

Paul: 3:48

Well, it was fairly obvious that the battery was already a very crucial part of the car, for this race car was actually about a third of the total weight. There was a lot of optimization potential. It was clear that cell selection is a crucial part, choosing which battery we actually use in the car and what performance they have for the use case racing that was a very crucial part and then integrate it into a functional accumulator was also a challenge and I think that was fascinating for me to see what engineering levers on the pack and application level there are for lithium-ion batteries.

Friederike: 4:26

And did you study it Like? Was that your background? I think I saw that you studied at ETH. Was it part of the student program?

Paul: 4:34

Yes, I guess the overall field of mechanical engineering was what I studied and there were a lot of skills that could be applied to the design of an accumulator. But later on I dove deeper into the material science of lithium ion batteries. Also, during my master's thesis I spent a year at Lawrence Berkeley Lab in California investigating battery materials and I think that also helped me get a sense of the trade-offs that happen in the design of a battery and also different stages, the use case, the manufacturing of a lithium ion battery and the material requirements. And that was the time where I looked beyond the mechanical engineering but also dove into the material science and electrochemistry of a lithium ion battery.

Friederike: 5:19

Can you help us here? So what kind of batteries are existing and for what are they used? Like you know, solid liquid we heard a lot of like kind of batteries. Maybe you can give us a quick overview of what kind of batteries are existing and for what they usually use.

Paul: 5:33

Yeah, I think it makes sense to look at secondary batteries or rechargeable batteries, and here in that area the most prominent example are certainly lithium-ion batteries, but there are also lead-acid batteries or nickel certainly lithium-ion batteries, but there are also lead-acid batteries or nickel-cadmium batteries. There are also all types of rechargeable batteries and mainly the name that we throw around when describing the batteries refer to the type of material used within a battery. So I think we take lead-acid batteries as an example. Lead is one of the electrode materials in this battery and the acid is the electrolyte that's used in this type of material. And these batteries are mainly used for starter batteries in gasoline vehicles, mainly because they can provide a really high current when igniting the car and they're really low cost Means high current, so the amount of amperes that you can extract from your battery. So current and voltage are usually battery parameters that you can use to describe the performance. But those were sort of, say, the main use case for in the past for automotive for these starter batteries. But then as lithium ion batteries got more popular in the portable electronics space, their performance outshined lead-acid batteries and nickel-cadmium batteries by far. So the amount of energy per weight that you can store with lithium-ion batteries and here lithium refers to the charge carrier of these type of batteries is much, much higher than the lead-acid or other type of batteries. And this much higher than the lead acid or other type of batteries. And this opened up a new field of use cases where you could use portable energy, mobile energy storage systems to power electronic devices, electronic vehicles, etc.

Paul: 7:19

And I think, within lithium ion batteries. In the past years there's been a lot of hype about solid state batteries, and solid state refers actually to the electrolyte within these lithium ion batteries. In state-of-the-art batteries that you find in electric vehicles today, you typically have a liquid electrolyte. An electrolyte is the type of material that is responsible for transferring the lithium ions within the battery from one positive electrode to the negative electrode, so essentially the medium in which the lithium ions travel. In solid state batteries you replace that liquid electrolyte by, as the name suggests, by a solid alternative that could be a polymer, an oxide material, a sulfide material, essentially replacing an organic solvent which is liquid.

Friederike: 8:05

Interesting. So what do you use right now in electric vehicles? What is Tesla using, for example?

Paul: 8:11

I think the state of the art for the automotive industry lithium ion batteries with a liquid electrolyte, with an organic solvent. And then there's differences in terms of which active materials are used. Active materials refer to the materials that are used as the positive electrode or the negative electrode, and these electrode materials essentially act as a host for the lithium ions which they are stored, depending on the plus or minus side of the battery. There's differences in these host materials and I think in the automotive industry, on the cathode side there's two distinct examples. The cathode refers to the positive electrode of these lithium ion batteries and here we have two main competitors, so to say.

Paul: 8:57

One is LFP lithium ion phosphate and NMC, which is nickel, man, manganese, cobalt oxide as a host material, and they provide different advantages. Essentially, while LFP batteries they are a type of lithium-ion batteries cannot store as much energy as their NMC counterparts but they're typically cheaper. So they're sort of the go-to battery for low cost mass produced vehicles, sort of the entry type electric vehicles, whereas with NMC type of materials you can increase the energy stored per mass within these EVs, so you might have a higher range but it comes at a higher price cost. And I think these type of materials. These type of batteries make up the main market of lithium ion batteries for EVs.

Friederike: 9:50

And you know you talked about now EVs and kind of energy using it for electric or for power. What about, like, energy storage? We hear a lot about solar. You know if you produce solar or wind energy, you need to have the ability to store.

Narrator: 10:09

Is that the?

Friederike: 10:10

same concept that you use batteries like that, or is it then rather you use hydrogen or other ways of storage? What are the disadvantages or what is the limitations of most of the batteries which are right now on the market?

Paul: 10:24

I think the range of lithium ion batteries that are on the market is fairly large, so you can get optimized battery systems for specific use cases. So you can get optimized battery systems for specific use cases. And I think lithium-ion batteries in general have a lot more potential to enable new use cases, new energy storage applications as well. And if we look in the past we can see that lithium-ion batteries actually drove a huge innovation wave in portable electronics In. I think it was 1991, Sony commercialized the first lithium-ion battery and over those past 30 years or so it actually unlocked new use cases, from frequency regulation in grid storage to electric mobility and electric vehicles. And I think that's not the end of the road.

Paul: 11:16

I think there's a few metrics where lithium ion batteries have improved significantly, and this is certainly energy density for one, how much energy you can store per mass, but also cycle life, so how much, how often can you charge and recharge your battery. And then, very significantly, also the price point. I think by unlocking new use cases and reaching larger scales of production, the price point of lithium-ion batteries has come down significantly. There's more developed supply chain of raw materials, optimized production costs etc. That have made new use cases viable in the first place, and I think we're not at the end of that road yet. And I think, for example, electric trucking, electric aviation, but also, let's say, let's call it longer term energy storage for the production of renewable energy are certainly on the radar. It always depends on the specific cell design which materials are used, whether that use case becomes viable. But I think there's a lot of use cases to be unlocked with lithium ion batteries as a core technology.

Friederike: 12:27

Interesting because I think what's usually here in the industry is that, especially aviation if we talk about the massive jumbos or you know, really or transportation, cargo aviation that battery is not going to have enough electricity density or like power to power them over a longer distance. That's why the power to gas technologies are getting more pushed in that direction, like like hydrogen or other ways. But do you think that actually that we are at the beginning of the innovation and that could still be viable for lithium batteries in the future?

Paul: 13:02

So, to be precise, when I talk about electric aviation, I think it's domestic flight, several hundreds of kilometers that are certainly viable Transatlantic flights. That's really difficult not to crack with lithium-ion batteries and I wouldn't put my money on that. But I think there's still many, many other use cases that rely on combustion engines that could be replaced by lithium-ion batteries in the future.

Friederike: 13:28

And talking. I think if you mentioned the word lithium, usually always comes the question are we going to have enough lithium in the future and how is it actually getting extracted? Is that really environmental friendly? Do you have a view on that?

Paul: 13:43

I think the amount of lithium that's available is certainly sufficient to supply much more use cases with the raw material. Because I think what cannot be underestimated is that lithium is not consumed. In that sense you need it to produce the battery in the first place, but during operation the lithium is not consumed. You shuttle it back and forth between the electrode but in the end we have the opportunity to develop a closed loop value chain. So by enabling great recycling technologies we can keep the lithium within the value chain of lithium ion batteries. So I think the first question is there enough lithium? I believe yes, as lithium is actually not very rare, it's fairly abundant.

Paul: 14:32

But to the second part of your question how are the extraction methods today? I think there we can certainly improve. I think the mining is certainly not there where it could be in terms of environmental friendliness. But that's something that we as a society can work on. I think technological challenge to improve these processes. But from a conceptual point of view, I think what lithium ion batteries provide is a means to store energy really efficient. So charging and discharging, the energy efficiency during that process is really really high 96, 97%. So the energy losses are really low and that's a huge upside compared to other technologies. And the second part, that lithium is not consumed during the process. We can work out a value chain that's circular for lithium ion batteries.

Friederike: 15:25

So what you're saying is, yes, we still need to extract lithium, but hopefully we will have more circular model on lithium so we can reuse the existing, what is already extracted, and we can reuse the existing material in new batteries etc.

Paul: 15:40

Yes, that's pretty much the point. That's enough, and we have to keep it in the loop.

Friederike: 15:44

So, coming back to 8-Inks, what kind of problems are you solving in that picture around battery development?

Paul: 15:51

Yeah. So what we observed as a company is that for the past 30 years the production methods of lithium-ion batteries has not changed significantly. It's more of an incremental improvement. But the performance of today's lithium-ion batteries has actually tripled in terms of energy density cycle life. So we have seen a lot of advancement on the performance side of lithium-ion batteries, but not on the production technology. And now, as we push for even more performance in terms of energy density, as we try to increase these parameters, we see that the current production technology sort of reaches its limits. And what I mean by that is in today's lithium ion batteries there's a process step called electrode coating, and this is a very crucial step for the whole battery manufacturing process, because the electrodes the positive electrode and negative electrode within a battery determine your overall parameters of cell performance.

Friederike: 16:51

It's a very crucial step where you can fine-tune the electrochemical parameters of the cell how materials are actually stored and transferred within a cell, and there maybe to explain a little bit more the coating, draw a picture how to how that could look like, just to have a you know in your mind, like what is coating there and and how, how can you imagine coating? You know, coating, is that painting kind of way of doing that, or what? What is coating?

Paul: 17:22

in a way you can. You can think of it as as painting, because inside a battery, every battery design is sort of similar, so a battery has a positive pole and a negative pole, and typically you call these electrodes. These electrodes are coated, deposited or painted onto a metal foil in very, very thin layers on the range of 50 to 100 microns, which is roughly the size of a human hair. And this deposition process is done by painting, as you put it, a liquid slurry, a slurry is essentially a mixture of your active materials in a solvent which makes up a sort of paint. And this paint or slurry is then deposited onto foils. And these foils are then found within each battery. This is where they are stacked and connected with each other to form a functional device.

Paul: 18:18

And I think this coding process, the formation of an electrode, is in today's state-of-the-art industry typically a single-layer process. So you balance production parameters of the coding process with the performance parameters of a battery. You try to cram everything in this production step and try to balance out the requirements of the electrochemical cell and the requirements of the performance step. And what we observed is that, especially if you go to advanced architectures, if your electrode is not supposed to be made up by a single layer. But if you want to, for example, include your solid electrolyte in this layer, but if you want to, for example, include your solid electrolyte in this layout, if you want to include your electrolyte in this electrode layout, then you start to run into challenges do you do it sequentially? Are these materials compatible with each other, etc. If you want to improve certain parameters on the interface of these different layers within a battery, you cannot do it with the single layer process.

Paul: 19:16

So what we developed is a multi-layer process called multi-layer curtain coating, that allows us to implement advanced electrode architectures and within this framework, we can optimize the electrode performance, the cell performance, to specific use cases, whether that's an advanced energy density or a better power density, so higher currents, for example. This is all that we can do and at the same time, this technology multi-layer curtain coating is suited for really, really large-scale production. So what we can do by implementing this technology is not only tailor performance and increase cell performance, but also cut production costs by coating at faster speeds. And these are the two levers that we implement with multi-layer curtain coating for the battery industry Advanced electrode architectures for performance and lower production costs.

Friederike: 20:13

So to again try to visualize how it's actually getting manufactured. I guess this is done in such a micro level as you described it, like thin hair, etc that this is robots are actually bringing all these pieces together. How does it look like? Is it small? How do they place it together? Is it a chemical? Does it look like? Is it small? How do they place it together? Is it a chemical reaction? How do they make it together? I can just imagine in a sterilized environment that it's getting produced, but just to have this picture as well, painted for that.

Paul: 20:46

Yeah, I think that's a very good question because the coating process is actually a roll-to-roll process. So you have huge, huge metal foils with a large diameter and you unwind these foils and these foils serve as a substrate, and then you paint these substrates with your battery materials and you dry these substrates and the battery materials and wind it up again and then you have your battery electrodes on a huge roll again and then the subsequent steps is shaping and cutting these rolls into the right format and assembling them in the right order to form battery cell. But the coding process is actually a huge industrialized process that happens in many other industries as well, on a roll-to-roll fashion.

Friederike: 21:36

And so your customers are actually battery manufacturers.

Paul: 21:41

The customers that we target are exactly battery manufacturers, but also OEMs of electric vehicles, because I think the self performance value proposition that we bring to the table is also interesting for the end user. How can they actually get more performance out of the batteries that they would like to implement?

Friederike: 22:02

So how far are you with your solution?

Paul: 22:05

I would characterize our technology as, on the technology readiness level, maybe on the TRL 5 scale. We've built our fully functional lab here in Zurich where we demonstrate our technology on the lab scale, from raw materials to final devices, where we test our own pouch cells that we manufacture. But we've also done demonstrations in a relevant pilot environment. We actually rented a facility and coded at roughly 300 meters per minute production speeds, which is already like roughly five times the state of the art. So I think we have this demonstration at the relevant scale and now it's about implementing more use cases, more value propositions on the performance level on that scale and then ultimately advancing to the production scale as well.

Friederike: 22:58

So do you already work together with customers? So have you tried it on site already or is it right now?

Paul: 23:03

lab state still we do work with customers already from the automotive industry fairly large players and it's about demonstrating certain architectures in our lab. So I think we have the facility, we have customized equipment that we use, that we built up and designed ourselves actually, and with that equipment we can showcase and demonstrate the value proposition that I mentioned earlier for certain customers.

Friederike: 23:31

Okay, and when are you going to be ready for going on the market?

Paul: 23:35

I think a scalable market rollout is reached when we are able to use production-sized facilities. And the first step we would rent out these type of facilities. So now it's about fine-tuning we would rent out these type of facilities. So now it's about fine-tuning the last little pieces on the pilot scale, and for that we build our own pilot facility as well, and I think within the next two years we have certain products and use cases ready for the production scale at external facilities.

Friederike: 24:06

Okay, so how big is the pilot? Like, how can I imagine it?

Paul: 24:20

The pilot coater, the machine that we're designing right now. Okay, so how big is the pilot? How can I imagine it replicate the production environment on a relatively small footprint, so we can replicate these large deposition speeds, these large coating speeds on a pilot facility which is really unique.

Friederike: 24:39

So, as a customer, I would then integrate that five by seven meter coating device into my normal process if I would buy it from you.

Paul: 24:49

Yep, you could do that, but I think our business model rather targets tall manufacturing use case so we can develop these use cases, these applications, these electrode architectures for you and then also deliver these types of electrodes to you. That's one option. Many times customers and cell manufacturers would like to manufacture themselves. And then it's about a licensing business model how to integrate our technologies on existing production lines.

Friederike: 25:19

Yes, and what makes it circular.

Paul: 25:21

I think the circularity aspect of lithium-ion batteries is still being shaped. I think the early adoption phase of lithium-ion batteries in electric vehicles has passed, but we're not at mass rollout yet. But I think it's a really great time to think about circularity of lithium-ion batteries, especially when it comes to next generation lithium-ion batteries. And here, for me and for us, the circularity aspect starts with the cell design, and implementing advanced cell designs that are tailored for simplified recycling approach is certainly our biggest lever, and what I mean by and your coaching is helping by that.

Paul: 26:06

What's very attractive to me is a recycling method that's called direct recycling, and direct recycling in the context of lithium ion batteries means essentially trying to recover the battery materials intact.

Paul: 26:22

So very often these active materials are particles and they degrade over time and ultimately today's recycling processes break down the battery as a whole. Ultimately, today's recycling processes break down the battery as a whole. You create what's called black mass and you re-synthesize precursor materials of your battery active materials. And this is great and I think that's a great way to go. But there's more potential in a direct recycling approach where you try to keep the loop as small as possible for these battery materials. And keeping the loop for battery materials as small as possible to me means keeping the battery materials, their shape, intact and essentially adopting an upcycling model. And for that you have to be able to separate the materials efficiently, to recover the materials efficiently, to recover the materials efficiently, and that's something where our coating could assist by implementing codable materials, codable separators, codable current collectors. But this is now speaking on a timescale that's certainly beyond 5, 6, 7 years, and I think this is where we have to reach scale first, before changing the way batteries are recycled.

Friederike: 27:33

When did you start 8INX?

Paul: 27:34

We incorporated 8INX actually in December of 22. It's essentially a spin-off of ETH Zurich and a continuation of the technology development that I did as a PhD at ETH Zurich and for the second half of the PhD, I started to look into this process already at, I'd say, 2017 and saw the potential, saw multiple use cases in this technology for the lithium-ion battery industry, and then decided to incorporate as a startup in 2022.

Friederike: 28:08

And I've seen someone else in the team with the same last name. Is he related?

Paul: 28:14

Definitely that's my brother, Leon yeah.

Friederike: 28:16

Okay, so it's a family business as well.

Paul: 28:20

As well, but we're four co-founders in total. Christina as well, a PhD colleague of mine we actually spent a lot of years in the same office and lab together and Carl Philipp too, also a PhD from ETH Zurich. We're the co-founding team.

Friederike: 28:36

Okay, so how many people are you right now?

Paul: 28:38

Right now we're about eight people in total and we still have part-time students and working students supporting us with the technology development as well.

Friederike: 28:48

If you look back these two years since you incorporated the company, what did you learn the most and why?

Paul: 28:54

I think what's been really, really important to me as a learning is the power of teamwork. Especially as a PhD, you get regular feedback from your research group, but I think, working now as a team of eight, it's been quite astonishing what we as a team could achieve in terms of scalability by using everyone's input and working towards the same goal as a whole. That was really, really revealing for me.

Friederike: 29:25

Nice and I always send out an interview, free questionnaire and, what I think was very fascinating, what came back? So I usually always ask are there any specific books, podcasts, resources that have had a significant impact on your journey? And I really liked what you wrote. It's harry potter and momo, so for michael ender, and so can you, can you elaborate a little bit on that? What made you, you know, what made fascinates you so much on these two books?

Paul: 29:55

Well, I think I grew up in the during this phase where Harry Potter got really, really popular. So basically, I consumed Harry Potter in every fashion books, videos, movies, but also audio books every fashion books, videos, movies, but also audiobooks. And what I really like is this fantasy world that sparks your imagination. I think this magical world can serve as an inspiration of what's possible to really get the imagination going essentially. The imagination going essentially and the other example that I wrote is why I chose Momo was because I'm fascinated by the personal relationships on how you interact with people. Being a good listener in Momo's case is certainly a very fascinating character trait and that also serves as somewhat of a role model to me, that you know, the relationships that we build very much determine our daily life, but also our output, our productivity and our general well-being. These relationships are very important to me.

Friederike: 31:04

Great One last question what makes you confident that we will solve the climate crisis? Try it in one sentence what makes you confident that we will solve the climate crisis?

Paul: 31:11

Try it in one sentence. One sentence Okay, that's going to be a tricky one. What makes me confident that we solve the climate crisis is essentially twofold. I believe that technology plays a vital role and can play a vital role, and we've seen that in the past, and I'm confident that it will be an important factor for the future. Confident that it will be an important factor for the future, but, more importantly, I see technology as an enabler to change our habits and our values, and I think this is the far more important lever that each and every one of us starts to think and adapt their individual habits, and together, I think that change in mindset will contribute much more to solving the climate crisis.

Friederike: 31:54

How can people contact you?

Paul: 31:55

I'm fairly often on LinkedIn, if I think that's a channel that I use a lot, but in general that's probably my email address, paulaidingscom.

Friederike: 32:05

Fantastic, so thank you so much. I think I learned a lot about batteries and energy storage systems, so I really enjoyed that conversation and I definitely will share that video you have been giving me beforehand. It's beautifully made and describing so beautifully how lithium batteries are actually working. Thank you so much for being part of my podcast. Likewise, friederike, thank you so much for having me of my podcast.

Paul: 32:30

Likewise, Friederike. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Friederike: 32:36

Thank you for joining today's episode. You can find the show notes, background materials and contact details of our guests on our website sustainnowch. Follow and share our podcast on any platform available. Do you have a comment or interesting solution to take a deep dive? No-transcript.