The Product Experience

Product managers, stop being jaded - Ipsita Basu (Product Management Leader, BILL)

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Listen to our conversation with Ipsita Basu, Product Management Leader at BILL all about rediscovering our passion in product. In this episode, Ipsita shares practical advice for product managers looking to get out of a rut and build innovative products that customers love.

Featured Links: Follow Ipsita on LinkedIn | Bill | Read Ipsita's 'Product managers, stop being jaded' article at Mind The Product 

Our Hosts
Lily Smith enjoys working as a consultant product manager with early-stage and growing startups and as a mentor to other product managers. She’s currently Chief Product Officer at BBC Maestro, and has spent 13 years in the tech industry working with startups in the SaaS and mobile space. She’s worked on a diverse range of products – leading the product teams through discovery, prototyping, testing and delivery. Lily also founded ProductTank Bristol and runs ProductCamp in Bristol and Bath.

Randy Silver is a Leadership & Product Coach and Consultant. He gets teams unstuck, helping you to supercharge your results. Randy's held interim CPO and Leadership roles at scale-ups and SMEs, advised start-ups, and been Head of Product at HSBC and Sainsbury’s. He participated in Silicon Valley Product Group’s Coaching the Coaches forum, and speaks frequently at conferences and events. You can join one of communities he runs for CPOs (CPO Circles), Product Managers (Product In the {A}ether) and Product Coaches. He’s the author of What Do We Do Now? A Product Manager’s Guide to Strategy in the Time of COVID-19. A recovering music journalist and editor, Randy also launched Amazon’s music stores in the US & UK.

Speaker 1:

Hey, Lily, here's a blast from the past. Do you remember what the collective noun is for a group of product managers?

Speaker 2:

Oh, I remember when this came up at the London Mind the Product Conference many years back. Was it a backlog?

Speaker 1:

Oh, that would be a good one. I actually had to look it up myself. The word that they agreed on was a compromise, which you know seems fitting. I mean, whenever product people get together, the topic inevitably seems to be a complaint about how the job just isn't as good as it's supposed to be.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and product meetups have always been a great place for a group therapy session, but it does seem to be even worse lately, which is why we asked Ipsita Basu, a senior great PM at Bill, to join us today. She wrote a great post for Mind, the Products blog, called Product Managers Stop being Jaded.

Speaker 1:

And, unlike the whinging we're doing in this intro, ipsita actually has some practical advice, so let's get straight to our chat with her. Actually has some practical advice, so let's get straight to our chat with her. The product experience is brought to you by Mind the Product Every week on the podcast we talk to the best product people from around the globe.

Speaker 2:

Visit mindtheproductcom to catch up on past episodes and discover loads of free resources to help you with your product practice. You can also find more information about Mind the Product's conferences and their great training opportunities happening around the world and online.

Speaker 1:

Create a free account on the website for a fully personalized experience and to get access to the full library of awesome content and the weekly curated newsletter Mind. The Product also offers free product tank meetups in more than 200 cities. There's probably one near you.

Speaker 2:

Hi, it's Itza. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today? I'm doing well, thank you. It's great to be talking to you and I love the topic that we're talking about. Well, I sort of love it and I hate it. Actually, it's like let's talk about jaded product managers, of which I feel like there's probably quite a lot of jaded product managers, so it's a good discussion to have, but also it's sad that lots of product managers feel jaded. But before we get into the topic, it would be great if you could give our listeners a really quick intro into who you are and what you're doing in product yeah, definitely so.

Speaker 3:

I am a product management leader at Bill right now, which is a B2B SaaS company. I have about a decade of product management experience across FinTech and B2B SaaS across two countries. And, yeah, I really came into product quite accidentally. I started as a business analyst and someone suggested that I get into product and it's been a journey of many years and I'm here now.

Speaker 2:

Amazing and tell us about the inspiration for the article that you wrote for Mind the Products that kind of kicked off. That or that was the reason why we decided to have a chat with you, which was all about sort of how product managers are being a bit jaded these days.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. So. I actually did a technology MBA program from Cornell a couple of years ago and one day I met my ex-classmates for dinner and you know all of them had different complaints about being a product manager and you know, none of them were happy and we told our stories and it was really interesting that, you know, a couple of years ago, when we were fresh graduates, we were just, you know, falling over ourselves to become a product manager and you know, falling over ourselves to become a product manager and you know, five years in, this was the result. So it was just interesting and that kind of told me that you know there's a lot of jaded PMs and in talking to more friends I really started to uncover that as a common theme among different product managers.

Speaker 2:

And what do you think it is? That is kind of poignant right now. You know, I think there are a lot of stresses that product managers in particular are going through, but people who work in tech more generally actually. But yeah, what is it? That's kind of causing us to feel, maybe a little this feeling of maybe disappointment or stress or things like not necessarily meeting expectations, a lack of optimism. Maybe that's going on today.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. So, you know, it's kind of being driven by the mood, the sentiment in tech right now. Obviously, there is a very high focus on performance, on outcomes, which, you know some would argue that's a good thing, but then also, against the backdrop of all the layoffs, a soft labor market, people feeling that they don't have options within their company or outside their company, and that's just kind of means that people are, you know, stuck in the situations, stuck in situations they don't want to be in and you know they are more bound to whatever is happening within their team, within their company. I definitely think that's the overarching theme that I've sensed from everyone I've spoken to.

Speaker 2:

I think it's interesting as well because I think also sometimes when I speak to people who feel unhappy in their role, like even just knowing that there are options out there can make you feel better. So when you know you might not make a move if you're feeling unhappy, but just knowing that you could if you wanted to and that there's options, kind of make you feel a bit more optimistic. So, yeah, I definitely agree. I guess the thing that I've seen as well is like that sort of macro economic climate as well of in the UK we have a cost of living crisis, we have recession, there's global wars going on, so all of that kind of contributing to just a feeling of unease as well.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know, obviously COVID has contributed to inflation, which has led to a higher price baseline for more things. And you know, generally there's a sentiment of financial insecurity, of like not being able to afford the things people want, for example housing and the layoffs. And against the background of layoffs, you know it's, there's also a question of how long can I hold down this, this tech job, and, to be clear, I don't think the financial insecurity is specific to tech workers, but then you know, the layoffs kind of is a is a double whammy on that, on that entire situation.

Speaker 1:

So what do you think people should do about all this? I mean, there's a certain, a lot of this is outside of our control. It's the overall environment. What kind of advice do you give to yourself, to your friends? Where do you see this?

Speaker 3:

going where I think it really does matter why you're jaded. What's the situation within your company and you know how you can change it. And you know, assuming there is no ability or opening for you to move outside, it's really how do you make the most of the situation you have within the company and that also outside, during your off work hours? How do you kind of switch that anxiety off and really move on with your life and you know, not have it become a part of your identity and daily existence? So I'm happy to talk about the different kind of archetypes I've seen amongst friends, and you know different colleagues as well. That's a good next step.

Speaker 2:

you know different colleagues as well. That's a good next step. Yeah, that would be great. Take us through the sort of five archetypes that you discovered.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. So the first one that I found was PMs thinking that they don't do anything of value. They're, you know, doing coordination tasks, updates, and really not feeling that they're, whether directly or indirectly, doing anything for the company, moving the needle for the company or for the customer. The second one is really them feeling bored just with their current job. You know, maybe they've just had the same experience year over year. They're not doing anything new.

Speaker 3:

I do feel like PMs want to do, you know, innovative things, do some sort of're not doing anything new. I do feel like PMs want to do innovative things, do some sort of problem solving on something new. So definitely doing the same thing over and over does get boring. The third I've seen is having too much accountability.

Speaker 3:

There is obviously this trend of holding product managers accountable, which is great, but at times you know they have no power to really influence the outcome, or little power, and you know the old adage of like influencing everyone else. That only goes so far when other more you know there's deeper things going on within the company. The fourth is really having too much responsibility, and that comes from companies and leaders not prioritizing, wanting to work on many things at once, which means every single thing moves an inch instead of moving a mile if you were working on fewer things. And then the last, you know everyone's least favorite there being too much politics in the company and that just taking over your mind, share, not being able to, you know, build products, service the customer, et cetera, just because of the sheer politics within the company.

Speaker 2:

So let's go back to that first one not doing anything of value. That feels like a very sad state to be in, so I think you touched on it very briefly. But what causes people to feel like they're not adding any value, and what can they do about feeling like this?

Speaker 3:

for product manager. Your value is really in adding value to the company in terms of, let's say, the top line, the bottom line, in terms of building a platform that other product teams can use, or even sometimes a platform which other teams, like sales and marketing, can use, or adding value to the customers in terms of building features, understanding their needs, et cetera. So the less you are contributing to these things, the more you will feel like you're not adding sufficient value. So what really gives birth to this? I think it's spending a lot of time on tangential tasks. Spending a lot of time on tangential tasks, for example, updates, you know, giving updates in different forums, the same update over and over again, different forums, different audiences. You know, I once heard a joke from a friend, a PM friend, who said that every week I talk about what I did and I talk about what I'm going to do next week, but I never actually have the time to do anything Right. So that's, I think that's really telling and you know, for a period of time in my life, I had also experienced that. The next thing is, you know you're spending a lot of time on optics, which is, you are marketing yourself, your work within the company and you know that just leaves lesser time to do the work that actually drives the company's outcomes or outcomes from the customer. So those are really the things that kind of crowd out these value adding tasks. So, in terms of solutions, I think you really have to sort of think of yourself, as you know, get in your manager's head, which is would your manager really not want you to add value? No, I don't think so. They would, because that's why they've hired you as a product manager. So which are the items that you think are not needed? If there's updates to be done, can you have some parent template for updates that gets disseminated to multiple teams? If it's about optics, can you do it in a more streamlined way? Coordination can you have a in a more streamlined way Coordination Can you, you know, have a program manager or someone involved? So, essentially, you know which are the things that you can constructively push back on and say, hey, I don't really think this is adding value. So how can we streamline this? And I think that you know, really, if you have a good manager, they should be open to. You know listening to you about this and that, really, if you have a good manager, they should be open to listening to you about this. And then, really, once you've done that, it's okay.

Speaker 3:

What are the tasks that do add value? How do you redirect your time to focusing more on those? I think that's a big one as well. Well, and then, lastly, I think product managers especially product managers who are individual contributors they don't delegate as much as I think they should because they feel, hey, I don't have anyone reporting to me, who would I delegate to? But you will be surprised, you can delegate to your engineers, to your designers. Sort of set up the terms of the delegation, like, hey, can you do X, y, z and let me know if you have any questions. And that really helps to free up your time to really focus on other things.

Speaker 1:

I want to make sure that we're saying, that we're agreed on something on this, though Sometimes I meet people earlier in their career who want to do the sexy work and don't want to do any of the grunt work. They don't recognize the value of some of what they're doing for their stakeholders, for their internal customers and for their partners. So the question is when you're doing this, you're saying put together templates, delegate, get other people involved. It's not don't do updates, don't communicate, don't manage the optics. It's manage how much effort you're spending on it, making sure that you're being efficient with it. Is that right?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, that's entirely correct. As a product manager, you cannot not do updates or involve your stakeholders. It's just about doing it in a streamlined way. Yeah, I think that's the big takeaway there. Fantastic, thank you for clearing that up. It's just about doing it in a streamlined way. Yeah, I think that's the big takeaway there.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic. Thank you for clearing that up. The next one you talked about was people getting bored, and I can totally relate to this. I have had to optimize my career for a way that deals with the fact that sometimes I get bored a little bit too easily. But talk about why people are getting bored and what they can do about it.

Speaker 3:

So I think this stems from two things. One is you're doing something you don't want to do, and I've observed this in certain product managers. Let's say, they're working on a platform product, but what they really want to be doing is building customer experiences, doing core PM UI work. So that's one. And the second is you know you're really just repeating the experiences you've had before and you're not learning or growing, and that really starts to create that boredom. You know there's that adage that did you when you say you have three years of experience, did you have three years of experience or one year of experience, three times over? You know, and for certain people you know, experiencing the latter it does frustrate them. They don't want to constantly learn and grow.

Speaker 2:

So what are your suggestions for how to how to fix this?

Speaker 3:

So I think it's really about OK, I'm bored.

Speaker 3:

So what are your suggestions for how to fix this in, or sort of a new problem area within my product I'm interested in?

Speaker 3:

So you know, if you map the different spaces in your organization, really figure out your area of interest, and, you know, can you pivot to that, can you volunteer, put your hand up to work on that piece? So that's definitely one aspect or one way to solve the problem. The other one is you know, even within a product there's different things you can learn, you can learn about, you know user, just on the same product you're currently working on, maybe your manager is working on something and you want to ask them hey, can I just take over that piece? I'm interested to learn X, y and Z. So you're not necessarily switching your product or problem area, you're just working on different aspects of the problem, just working on different aspects of the problem. And then obviously there's, you know, with all these problems, there's always the solution of moving to a different team within the same company or finding a job externally. And if you really feel like, hey, I'm feeling bored by all of the things you know within my company, then there is that option to move.

Speaker 2:

I think one of the things that I have also seen is almost like an overlap with the last archetype that you mentioned of being too much politics and just being bored with the fact that there's too much politics. But one of the things that I've always suggested in this type of scenario, as well as like finding yourself a bit of a side hustle, like you know, trying to take your product learning and experience into things outside of work so that you can get a bit of a spark back, or like go and hang out with some product managers in a different scenario, in a different setting, and try and get some inspiration that way.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. Actually, that's a really good point. You don't have to always seek additional pots within your company. There's always things outside you can do a course, you can write an article, do a podcast, etc. There's a lot of ways to get that spark back. Good point.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 2:

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Speaker 1:

Learn more today at pendoio slash podcast and I'm going to go in a slightly different direction. I think I'm a big fan of career ladders and strength wheels and things like that, and looking at what is it that you're good at and what are the things that are potential areas of development, and being really explicit about that and talking with your manager or potentially getting a coach to work on those things so that you can be reinvigorated, and if you can make it explicitly part of what is expected of you within the company to grow, then they're invested in helping you relieve that boredom and in developing new things. So companies that are not good at it, that don't have this stuff documented and don't help you with it, I don't think they're getting the most out of their talent.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, definitely, Definitely. I think, with everything you propose within the company it really has to be a win-win, maybe even a triple win situation where the company benefits, you benefit, grow, get out of your boredom and then maybe even your manager benefits in some way.

Speaker 1:

So I totally agree Always. Yeah, this is the big secret. If you want to get coaching or get other opportunities within your company, don't pitch it as a benefit for you. Pitch it as a benefit for the company always.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely yes, yes for sure I love that. Okay, so, and again, you touched on it briefly around people feeling like they have too much accountability. So what are the causes for people feeling like they have too much accountability?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I think it's really about, you know, having a lot of dependency on cross-functional teams but being responsible for the outcome. And you know, here's a hot take you like misalignment of incentives and goals, leaders not being on the same page. And really, you know, at a certain level, if you're a product manager, you cannot influence your way into success when all these factors are at play. The second one is dependency on other product management teams, let's say platform teams, and I think in both the cases it's not so much a problem that the product manager in question is held accountable, it's that the other teams are not held accountable simultaneously. The gap where we expect the product manager to be a superhero and to solve everything in spite of all the different structural factors at play. And then the third thing, which I think is you know, more of a question for leaders, is really pushing accountability at the wrong moment.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, like quick story, one of my friends. He joined a late stage startup, you know, in a platform role, and in his week one, at 5 pm on a Friday, the CEO goes up to him and says, hey, this thing is broken, what are you going to do about it? You know, kind of chastising him for having this thing be broken and he's like wait, it's week one for me. You know why. You know I will take over this going forward. But you know why are you acting like this is my fault. And you know that kind of elicits an eye roll moment when someone's trying to hold you over accountable for something that maybe isn't your fault but, yes, is your responsibility to fix it going forward. And I think you know these are some situations where you know these are some situations where you know, while someone may push that accountability on you, the other pieces are not in place to really have you, as a product manager, drive the outcome home.

Speaker 1:

So that's accountability without being able to actually fix it. There's the other side of it, where you're stretched too thin, where you have responsibility for too many things, but not necessarily the account. Well, you probably have the accountability for a lot of them as well. So how do you deal with that side?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think, for responsibility. More often than not, what I've seen is a lack of prioritization and sometimes it's because of the product leaders who really want you know everything done at once and that creates a lack of focus. You know too many things going on, product managers really not being able to delve deep into their projects and think through every aspect you know, think through a pre-mortem, et cetera, and try and figure out, you know, everything that needs to be done so that the launch, or whatever it might be, is successful. And sometimes it's sort of intellectual laziness on the part of the leaders to not sort of focus on the right thing. But really you, as the product manager, still have to kind of compel them to prioritize.

Speaker 3:

And again, I would say, put yourself in the shoes of your manager, I would say even the shoes of what is best for the company and think through like hey, you know, I, this is what I believe that we should prioritize.

Speaker 3:

And here's my rationale for why. And I do think that if we try to do everything, it's going to be, you know, the speed is going to get diluted or the outcome is going to get diluted, the quality is going to get diluted. So here is my proposal for what we should focus on. And you know, I think at that point they are, the leaders are either compelled to say, well, you know, you know, sort of counter rationalize to your rationalization, or if they kind of really push the matter that hey, no, we want everything done, then at least you made it clear that if so many things need to get done, then the progress of every single project is going to be slow to get done, then the progress of every single project is going to be slow, and you know, then you know it's really par for the course for whatever happens in the end.

Speaker 2:

I think one of the things that I've also seen as well with this type of scenario is that sometimes if you do get into a situation where you're, you know, really having to push back, it can reflect well on you as a product leader to be able to identify that and have that conversation eloquently with the rest of the leadership in the business. So it's almost an opportunity. Sometimes, obviously, it can be really hard if people you know, if you haven't had time to kind of gain their respect or you know you don't know the business that well so you don't have all the context. So maybe maybe your justifications aren't like a hundred percent on point Um, but yeah, I think sometimes it can be an opportunity to to show how you're thinking about your work and everything and uh, and try and impress people.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, and I think, Lily, that's a really good point, and I would actually say that's true for almost all of these where the more you can converse with your manager at a level of like, hey, this is what we should be doing as a company, this is what we should be doing as a team, the higher the altitude of your engagement and the more you are seen as a team, you know, the higher the altitude of your engagement and you know, the more you are seen as a leader, as opposed to just someone who takes orders and does what they are told. So I would say that that's definitely a plus for your career.

Speaker 1:

The challenge I've seen around that one is in the unfortunately not as rare as I'd like it occasion when you're in a toxic environment. So how do you know when you're in a toxic environment or if it's just a normal one and you're experiencing it from a you're having a bad day?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. So I will add here that, candidly, I have had the good luck of never working in a toxic environment, so my experience here is more secondhand from friends. So you know, I think the big thing here is you have to trust your gut. If you, if the environment is weighing you down, if you're ruminating a lot about the discussions you've had, the arguments you've had, the lack of information and lack of communication towards you, then that environment is toxic. And you know, worst case it's toxic for you. So it's not an environment for you, right? So I think that is really the sniff test there. That is really the sniff test there.

Speaker 3:

But in general I would say toxic environments are characterized by the lack of communication, which manifests as information withholding, lack of clarity of expectations. The other thing is just a general sense of negativity and negative atmosphere where there is a lot of blame levied to different parties. There's unhealthy competition. You're just trying to sort of protect your reputation, point fingers at others. And then the third I can think of is the forced lack of work-life balance, the lack of consideration for any personal commitments, personal time, and those are the key. And I think, lastly, obviously discrimination and harassment, which is a whole other topic, but that you know should definitely tell you that an environment is toxic.

Speaker 2:

It's funny because it sort of feels like an obvious question, but I think actually, when you are in those environments, it can be actually quite hard to know if this is just normal and what everyone else is experiencing, versus actually no. This is like maybe there are some other people experiencing it, but it's you don't have to put up with it, like you can, you can go and work somewhere else, and there are environments where this isn't you know. Know, this isn't accepted and it's a much healthier working environment. Yeah, definitely, definitely. So let's go back a little bit to the very final jaded archetype of there being too much politics. I mean, I guess that sort of leads to a slightly toxic environment as well. But what causes too much politics at work? And and how do we cope with this? Because in most situations I think we can't really fix it.

Speaker 3:

So I think you know, first of all, with wherever there's humans, there's going to be politics right versus the company as a whole, its customers or a majority of its employees. It's really benefiting a few. So that's one. And the second one is you know you, your co-workers, your work friends, you spend a lot of time thinking and talking about politics and ideally, this is really not what your leadership should want. You should be talking about the work, the customers. You know how we will grow the company. So I think those are two signs that there's really too much politics. And I think you know, in some situations the politics does crop up, but it really is, you know, up to your leaders to kind of squash that if it's becoming overwhelming. So that's really the sign that it's there.

Speaker 3:

In terms of what we as PMs could actually do is you have to learn how to deal with politics right. You have to have good relationships. You have to become politically savvy. This is not optional. Especially higher up you go in the career ladder and you know you really want your products to be successful. I would say look for allies, look for supporters of your work or yourself, to ensure that you know things move along as expected that things move along as expected and then use your relationships to really try to reach a middle ground when it comes to different situations.

Speaker 3:

The common situation I've seen in product is that there are a lot of turf wars because people want to work on the next new exciting thing or people really want to take credit for success of something and really, if your leader is not squashing it, if it's becoming overwhelming, then it's up to you to you know, try and find that middle ground there.

Speaker 3:

Share the credit you know or you know, think through what if it's a new product, what the new, what's going to be new about it, and figure out really which is the right team. It should sit in right. You always want to be trying to do what is best for the company as opposed to like best for yourself or for a few people. Yeah, the other thing is I think you know again as you gain maturity in your product management career is really to emotionally regulate, and this is something that I tell my team as well. There's going to be these strange situations when someone calls you out for something where there's a little dose of emotional regulation. Just kind of work through it and get to the end. These are not life or death situations. You can always kind of end up reaching an agreement with most reasonable people.

Speaker 1:

So this ties in really nicely to the question I wanted to ask next. I mean, this is all really fantastic advice. It's really useful, it's actionable and it reflects what I'm seeing from a lot of people. But there are times when you've just been in the environment for a while, you know you're that solely boiled frog or whatever the metaphor is on this one. So when you're just feeling down, when you're feeling demotivated, how do we help ourselves? How do we start to recognize it and get out of it without spiraling into an even worse situation?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think you know, again, there's always that option of, you know, going outside and then hoping that you end up in a better environment. But, you know, without that, I think it's really about taking these things a little less seriously. You know, like having an internal locus of control, like you have, thinking that you have agency and you can change things, and really sort of, you know, if your reality is toxic or has too much politics, then can you just, you know, change your mindset, have a little bit more distance from your work. So I think that's that's the big one is really changing your mindset. And then, yeah, the next thing you can do is really just, you know, rely on your community, talk to your fellow product managers, talk with them about their experiences, and you'll find that some of these you know, high politics environments are more common than you might think, and really you can talk to them about how to navigate these situations, how they found the mental peace that they needed there. So I think you know those are a couple of things you can do and I think, at the end of the day, you just have to have a healthy distance from your work.

Speaker 3:

You know, um, the, the sort of saying is that in in America, people take their work too seriously. Um and uh, you know, you just need to be able to switch off and you know, once you're done with your work day, move on to other things, focus on your hobbies, focus on your family and your community, and whatever happens at work happens. Sometimes the environment is so politics-ridden or so negativity-ridden where things cannot move forward and projects cannot launch. If that's the case, then it's not your sole responsibility to move things along. Right, it is what it is. Do the best that you can and then just switch off, because that's really all you can do in that situation.

Speaker 2:

I think that's really great advice and I think it's almost as important to have those moments of switching off and you know, in order to be your best self at work, you need to be able to have that healthy distance, like you say.

Speaker 3:

Yeah absolutely, absolutely. And you know it's also about, you know, having confidence in yourself and then feeling a sense of security. You know there's again there's that saying that we suffer more in imagination and in reality. I'm not trying to overlook the difficulties people have faced over the past few years, but you know, just thinking of yourself as a smart and resilient person, and you know this is just a point in time in your life and then just, you know, focusing on other things before things get better in your current company or even just outside, if you decide to switch jobs, if you decide to switch jobs.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. I'm certain that all of the listeners will take lots away from it, so it's been really great to hear your take on this and to have your expertise on the podcast.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me over on the podcast, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me over on the podcast. And you know, really for everyone, you know, I just want to say you're not alone. We're all going through this together. You know, feel free to reach out to your peers, you know, at work, your work, friends, different forums, etc. And we'll get through this together. It's going to be fine.

Speaker 2:

Love it, make a big product group. Hug there. The Product Experience is the first and the best podcast from Mind the Product. Our hosts are me, Lily Smith.

Speaker 1:

And me, Randy Silver.

Speaker 2:

Lerun Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.

Speaker 1:

Our theme music is from Hamburg-based band PAU. That's P-A-U. Thanks to Arnie Kittler, who curates both Product Tank and MTP Engage in Hamburg and who also plays bass in the band, for letting us use their music. You can connect with your local product community via Product Tank Regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide.

Speaker 2:

If there's not one near you, maybe you should think about starting one. To find out more, go to mindtheproductcom. Forward slash product tank.