The Product Experience

Rerun: Your first 90 days in product – Leah Tharin on The Product Experience

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If you’re starting a new role in product at whatever level, it can sometimes be difficult to get started, especially if you’re chucked in the deep end. In this week’s podcast episode, we speak with Leah Tharin, currently the Chief Product and Growth Officer at gotphotocom. She provides some insights on your first 90 days in a new product role, challenges the conventional wisdom of the 30, 60, 90-day plan,  and goes into the best ways to gain trust from your new team.

Featured Links: Follow Leah on LinkedIn and Twitter | Leah’s website | Leah’s ‘Productea with Leah’ podcast | ‘The Shit Sandwich and Other Terrible Ways to Give Feedback’ piece at I Done This Blog 

Our Hosts
Lily Smith enjoys working as a consultant product manager with early-stage and growing startups and as a mentor to other product managers. She’s currently Chief Product Officer at BBC Maestro, and has spent 13 years in the tech industry working with startups in the SaaS and mobile space. She’s worked on a diverse range of products – leading the product teams through discovery, prototyping, testing and delivery. Lily also founded ProductTank Bristol and runs ProductCamp in Bristol and Bath.

Randy Silver is a Leadership & Product Coach and Consultant. He gets teams unstuck, helping you to supercharge your results. Randy's held interim CPO and Leadership roles at scale-ups and SMEs, advised start-ups, and been Head of Product at HSBC and Sainsbury’s. He participated in Silicon Valley Product Group’s Coaching the Coaches forum, and speaks frequently at conferences and events. You can join one of communities he runs for CPOs (CPO Circles), Product Managers (Product In the {A}ether) and Product Coaches. He’s the author of What Do We Do Now? A Product Manager’s Guide to Strategy in the Time of COVID-19. A recovering music journalist and editor, Randy also launched Amazon’s music stores in the US & UK.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Product Experience Podcast. This week, we are revisiting an episode that we did with Leah Tarrin, who is the Chief Product and Growth Officer at gotphotocom. She took us through the first 90 days starting a new job, and, though the market's been really tough recently, I've seen plenty of people starting new jobs, and so we thought this would be the perfect time to revisit this episode. If you're still on the lookout for a job wishing you all the best and if you've just started, hopefully this one will be perfect timing.

Speaker 2:

The product experience is brought to you by Mind the Product. Every week on the podcast we talk to the best product people from around the globe.

Speaker 1:

Visit mindtheproductcom to catch up on past episodes and discover loads of free resources to help you with your product practice. You can also find more information about Mind the Product's conferences and their great training opportunities happening around the world and online.

Speaker 2:

Create a free account on the website for a fully personalized experience and to get access to the full library of awesome content and the weekly curated newsletter Mind. The Product also offers free product tank meetups in more than 200 cities. There's probably one near you.

Speaker 1:

Leah, welcome to the Product Experience Podcast. It's so lovely to be talking to you today.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for having me the Product.

Speaker 1:

Experience Podcast. It's so lovely to be talking to you today. Thank you for having me. So, before we get stuck into our topic this evening, which I'm super excited to talk to you about because I'm right in the middle of starting a new job, it'd be great to hear a little bit about you, your background and what you are up to these days.

Speaker 3:

I always struggle a little bit with summarizing myself because, like condensing a life into a couple of sentences seems to be tricky, but here's my take. So I've been in the industry for 22 years. One year as an API developer pretty bad one then UX researcher for 10 years tried to understand why people are doing what they're doing. I was always fascinated by human psychology and, yeah, like what basically drives people to do what they do. And then at some point I got frustrated because I didn't, I couldn't be part of the solution.

Speaker 3:

And then I got into product management, product leadership for the last about, I would say, 12 years. The entire thing, you know, like consulting, advising, you know, like consulting, advising VCs, whatever, what have you. And on the way, I crashed two companies. I was mildly successful with two other ones and yeah, but I definitely found my passion and I guess the only thing that's now important for me is that I love talking about all of this and I'm very open about it, and I guess that's what I do. And in terms of job descriptions, right now I'm the head of product at Jua, which is a weather and climate based startup in Zurich in Switzerland, and we're trying to revolutionize the weather market with better forecasts than anyone else.

Speaker 1:

Wow, that sounds amazing, and I being an English person, where the weather is notoriously unpredictable and it can rain and snow and be like boiling hot sun in the same day. I'm definitely looking forward to you solving that problem.

Speaker 3:

Well, we're not changing the weather, we're predicting it, but you know, we can try. You never know what's going to happen in the future.

Speaker 1:

I guess predicting it is the first step. Yeah, let's go with that. So you've obviously worked in a few different businesses and so you've done that process of starting a new job a few times. And the hot topic way of starting a new job in product these days seems to be to have a 30, 60, 90 day plan. And maybe it's not just in product, maybe it's in lots of other jobs as well. But, um, it would be great to get your view on this 30, 60, 90 day plan, because I think you have a slightly maybe controversial or maybe not controversial take on whether they're useful or not.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I guess that goes for everything that is in this industry. You know everything that's popular. I probably have a contrarian opinion about it, like the NPS or, yeah, 30, 60, 90 day plans. I guess the principle here is that I've been as well and I have a data point to prove what I'm going to say in a second. I've been in my new job for 40 days now and it's absolutely not what you would have expected, like every job that I've ever been in.

Speaker 3:

I guess the only thing that you can actually plan about a job is that you cannot really plan it. But there's a couple of things that you should always try to achieve and I think it's quite important to understand that. Wherever we go, we lose context, right. Like we take ourselves with us, of course, right. So, like I used to be the product lead it's small PDF and everybody liked me, I was confident in my job and I you know like I was kind of respected.

Speaker 3:

But if you get into a new company, it kind of the clock resets. It's just because you have a specific title doesn't mean anything. You need to really rework the trust that you have with people and I think a very good thought exercise of this is and it's also telling you why a 30, 60, 90 days plan is a bit problematic is that, let's say, you are in your job for an entire year and you've built relationships and you clone me now like just the way that I am with all my skills and I go away and you put the other person that looks different into this place. It's not going to work, because the thing that you're taking away is relationships, and I think it's incredibly important to focus on this in your job. So the very first thing that I do in the first 30 days, if you want to call it that is just to get to know people, really understand who is in the company, why they're in the company. Don't assume that you know, you know better. Be curious about people, especially the difficult conversations where you feel like, oh my God, this is not going good. You know, like the very first time, if you're ahead of anything, you're going to probably talk to everybody at some point and, yeah, I would say the first step is that don't plan anything that is requiring other people or you know, like that somebody gives you the time or whatever. That's just not going to happen. It's just not going to happen, not even in corporate world.

Speaker 3:

So I would say start with trusting and building up trust with people. That's the most important thing. Try to help out where you can. Just try to get to know how people's jobs work right. This is also how we approach customers. We try to understand what their context is and I guess in the end the rest kind of follows. I always know that look, after two weeks latest, something is going to burn. Everybody told me take your time, right. But here, 30 days later, I already did a reorganization and you cannot make this up. It's just that you know that's just how it is in this industry the reorganization, and you cannot make this up.

Speaker 2:

It's just that you know that's just how it is in this industry, so we know that the plan never survives contact with the enemy. You know everything always changes, but it seems like they are brought up more often than not when you're interviewing for leadership roles. The other people want to see what your plan is, so that they have confidence in you, and it may be a work of fiction, but it's still something that they want. So what do you tell people in the interview? Do you tell them that there is no plan, or that the plan is looser and will be adjusted, or do you go in and play the game?

Speaker 3:

That's a really good question because it's different for me than it is for other people. I would say I don't have to interview anymore because people already kind of know me. But when I advise people to pass or, like I don't know, like to prepare for interviews, right, Unfortunately, you have to have some answers on standard questions and you can kind of bring them up, you kind of answer them and then you give your own take on it, and I think that's always been my approach as well. I don't ask this kind of stuff in the recruiting that I do. So what I ask every time is that what do people get wrong about you? What do I learn from you in this talk with me? You know, usually we have 30 minutes that I don't see in your CV. Who is the person behind the letters? We have 30 minutes that I don't see in your CV. Who is the person behind the letters?

Speaker 3:

And I think one of the problems in this industry that we have and I think I understand where it's coming from is like, if you look at managers and leaders and the way that they try to manage people or try to figure out whether someone is good, we always resort to these simple methods of putting people into drawers. You know job titles, gender, age. Did you have a big logo that had a big exit when you were there? I mean, it's lunacy, right. Like if I was, I don't know like delivering hamburgers while Uber went on an IPO, I probably have a better chance than some other people to get on a podcast Suddenly. Everybody's responsible for the success. But the thing is, I think people do this because they are just. They don't know how to evaluate another way, and I think a good example of this is that there is a lot of managers who evaluate their people on the amount of hours that they spend in the office, right? So, for instance, I remember this very vividly in some sales organizations where I was hey, I need to go to the doctor on Wednesday, and then the first question from the manager is when are you going to compensate that?

Speaker 3:

And the reason for this is that they don't know how to do it. Otherwise, they try to exert control over you, and I think evaluating someone, a person, someone with a character, you just have to trust that you will feel the person. If you ask them personal questions, there's no checkbox that you can. Oh, she was answering in a way that I liked. It's just not happening. That's like I.

Speaker 3:

You know, I'm not going to lie to you. I'm biased, as everyone else. I identify with specific people more than with others, and I've also had my negative stereotypes and everything. But I can tell you that I always give everybody the chance to surprise me and the best way to do that is to relate to them. Just let them tell you, like why did you get into product? What are you passionate about? What gets you going in the morning? What makes you stand up and I know it sounds a bit lofty, but I can tell you I never had bad hires in that regard Like, if you really focus on the person, and that's what it is right. This is why these frameworks where you just focus on processes like first 30 days, get to know the product first and second, or the customer and then the product and then the processes that's why it never works, because we work ultimately with people and not machines.

Speaker 1:

So is it a case of these 30, 60, 90 day plans? They just they're too prescriptive. Basically and ultimately, there's just a few things that you need to achieve in the first three months and you'll do them in like varying different orders depending on the business that you're joining and the state that it's in, and what are those things that you need to. So so if you don't have that kind of that rigid structure of that plan, like what are the things that are really going to help you succeed in that role?

Speaker 3:

So I think a good frame to think about this is that whenever you are in the role and it doesn't matter how long you've been in it, right? So, like you also started a new job If you go to LinkedIn, what are you writing on that particular section of the job that you're in? So, let's say, I would be a taxi driver. I would not describe in there that I'm driving around people, right, but product managers do this all the time. They just describe what they do. Oh, I managed a team of this and that I was, I don't know, facilitating stand-ups or I was leading five people. It's like you're describing to me what I expect from you, from the job.

Speaker 3:

So, what you should do when you start with a new job or you're in a job already, you should look at what is right now in my job description that I have on LinkedIn, just as an example, and then imagine is what I'm doing right now, if I succeed in it, what I'm going to put in there? And then I write something else out, because you should always put something that is more impactful than the other. Right, like you should always grow on top of things and maybe also fail. I also put some of my failures into my CV even. But I think that's a very good frame of mind to think about it, because if we do not grow in front of others, then it's maybe time to go somewhere else. If you have the luxury not everybody can just freely choose their jobs I get it right, but put yourself always into new things right. That's also how I got ahead in my career.

Speaker 3:

At some point I sucked for a really long time in my career because I did not have this mindset. I was describing what I did instead of like what was the impact that I had, and I guess that, as a plan, is a very good thing. If you go to my LinkedIn profile right now, you don't see a lot. You see, just because I had no impact yet at Jua, I can describe what I had of product does, which is amazing, right. So the only thing that I listed there is that I did a reorganization, because that's what I did, and you will see in three months whether that was successful or not, because I will also measure the happiness of people you know like. Do they feel like that we aligned, and so forth.

Speaker 3:

So I think it's very important to be honest to yourself and learn as you go. I'm dealing with a big imposter syndrome, you know, like every day. But the thing is, you can add more skills to the mix. It's never going to change. You're always going to be insecure about something because you're going to exchange this insecurity with another insecurity. If you stop comparing yourself to that person, you start to compare yourself to that person and in the end, what frameworks are good for is to get you started, but at some point you should understand what they're for so you can get rid of them. And that's how I approach it. I don't plan anything.

Speaker 3:

I didn't even plan this podcast because I know that you know, usually I have good thoughts about it and I know how I work, like how I work Right, so like what works for me, and yeah, it seems to come together always. And if it doesn't, I'm going to be honest with myself and just say like okay, you know, like this is not for me. Yeah, I'm not sure whether that answers your question, but I feel like we should not over index or like overfit frameworks just for the sake of it. But I do recognize that people sometimes need more control. Some people some guests, need more structure. Some guests need more structure, some guests need less structure. I'm a big fan of just letting people be and then I just try to adapt to them. That's my role as a servant leader, if you want to call it that.

Speaker 2:

I want to try making sure that I got that and can summarize it. We've had the advice in the past that you should treat yourself as a product, to a degree from your career as a product. So, what you're saying is a lot. What a lot of people do is they list the outputs. They just list what they do and it's the storytelling, it's the outcomes, if we're applying product terminology to it.

Speaker 3:

Okay, so you know, it's an interesting thing If you think about how many product leaders that you have out there, people who write that they're product leaders on LinkedIn and it's not to take anything from them.

Speaker 3:

It's very hard to find just a normal product manager these days. Everybody's a leader, everybody's an expert in everything. Now, this is a thing because marketing just got much, much better. Right, we know how to market ourselves. Everybody knows how to market themselves. There's five tips on LinkedIn how to do this, how to do that.

Speaker 3:

We're flooded with products and people and brands that are imitating the really good brands, and the only way out of this is to really get trust going with people, because that's the only thing how we see through, or like how we cut through the noise. If you think about it, almost everyone that I know knows where to get books. You know, like, whether it's book depository or whatever, like your favorite books. It's not the problem. Everybody can get books. The problem is, do you have this one particular friend that, whenever they recommend you something, it seems to be just like yes, this is what I needed, right? This is exactly what I needed. I have two of these friends. I don't have more. I have two, right, they can do this.

Speaker 3:

My entire bookshelf down there is is full of this kind of stuff, and the reason is is that I trust them? You cannot trust the reviews anymore. You cannot trust recommendations anymore, and that's the big problem. Right, it's not hard anymore to get to information. The hardest thing is to get to trusted information, and this is the way that I treat myself as a product.

Speaker 3:

I write a lot about product-led growth, completely free, and it's very, very honest as well. I'm not just saying like I messed up. I'm going to go in front of people and tell them exactly how I messed up, how I felt about it and what made me choose the decisions that I made. Right, because I want people to really understand that. It is okay and it does not take away any of your value if you just are vulnerable and this creates trust. Right, but only if I do it consistently. So this is what I'm saying. Right, like you can take my posts, you can take the exact thing, you copy it, you put it in your profile. It doesn't do the same thing. It's because the brand is missing. The context is missing. People are constantly telling you oh, here's how I made 200,000 impressions with one post on LinkedIn. No, you didn't. You didn't. You just simply didn't. The reason where I am today is because I had 22 years in this industry and I failed 19 of them. That's how it is right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So, and that's really interesting with the like, I'm interested to know how you kind of go about establishing that trust with teams now and like what you may have tried before which didn't work, because it's so great to hear you know those stories of like things, that you know where we failed, because that's where a lot of the learning is as well.

Speaker 3:

I think what's incredibly difficult in taxing, as a manager, someone that has to manage other people and as a product leader, you also have to be a leader to other people that are not under you. So you know, like engineers, engineering organization sales, like I, have to connect everybody, right? The difficult thing of this is that for me and our company right now is a very small one, like we're about 20 people For me, all of these people are like 5% of the context, right? 5% here, 5% there, 5% there, 5% there. For them, I'm a huge part of the context. So the relationship is already asymmetrical by definition.

Speaker 3:

But if you've never been a leader, if you've never been a manager, it's very hard to feel this, right? So, like to understand that Lea only sees me twice a week, you know, like in a one-on-one, and then I talk to you, but they see me maybe 10, 20 times because I'm present in all the standups, present in all the plannings, I'm present in all the all hands Whenever I do give a big speech, you know, on LinkedIn or whatever. They see me all the time and I don't have the same context. It's almost like a friendship where one of the friends is just not paying a lot of attention, and that makes it incredibly difficult, because I kind of because people have demands to me, right, and I also have impossible standards towards myself. So the only way that you can actually do something about this is to be very, very, very conscious about every single soul that you have in these teams. And the way that I do this is that I'm not perfect at it, not going to lie, but I make sure that in every one-on-one I ask what can I do to be a better partner to you? And I'm not going to let you go until you tell me something. Right, I'm just going to, I'm going to ask. I'm going to ask because I want, I want you to criticize. This is time consuming, it is really time consuming.

Speaker 3:

And I also try to make sure that whenever I give feedback, whether it's negative or positive, I don't do this shit, sandwich stuff. You know that people tell you like, oh, say a good thing, then a bad thing, and then a good thing again. I don't do that. I always feel like it's important that, even if you give good feedback, say it in a way that it could not apply to someone that is standing next to you.

Speaker 3:

You know like, oh, you look pretty Okay, cool, nice, yeah, and we love hearing this, as women, like you know, like the faceless comments. But if you tell me like, hey, I really like how you combined I don't know your earrings with this and that you know it's maybe you know it's a bit more targeted, and if you change this kind of to your coworkers, then I can say, hey, I really loved your presentation. I especially love how you framed this particular problem around this. That gave me an insight that I did not have before. You know what that does. This gives so much appreciation for she actually listened, she listened right, and that means a lot and people do notice and that's the kind of standard that I try to hold myself to whenever I can Try to be as thoughtful as you can to people and try to listen.

Speaker 2:

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Speaker 2:

Learn more today at pendoio slash podcast. I'm guessing that when you're coming into a new company, when you're establishing the relationships, you've got the team that you're managing. Whether you're a product manager or leader, you always have a team of people that you're working with. You have your peers and stakeholders that you need to deal with, and then you have your customers. Is there a difference in the way you work to establish trust with the peers, stakeholders and customers versus the people you're leading?

Speaker 3:

So the trust with the customer we establish through the product and the trust with the engineers and the people that are working in this is that I build an organization that really gives them autonomy over what they're doing. I strongly believe in this right. So, like, I am not going to tell anyone what they do and what they should do. What I do is I am part of the strategy direction. So like, for instance, we say, okay, really like, for instance, the current OKR that we have at the moment is that we want to create more visibility for sales. What's going on in engineering? And we want to create more visibility for engineering. What's going on in sales. In a way, what I'm trying to say is that we have no idea what's going on with the customers in engineering and sales doesn't understand what the guys in engineering are doing. So it's about connecting and you know, like, in the end, trust is established if you listen and understand what someone's worry is and you do something about it.

Speaker 3:

There's nothing more damaging than just like standing in front of people and say, yes, I hear you, I hear you, but I don't do anything about it. And that's why I'm saying, like it's kind of like a product-led growth thing where you say, look, I'm not talking about it, I'm just showing you. I think that's way more powerful than constantly saying things because we've been tired anyways from the marketing messages, right, like that's what I mean. It's like trust is earned very, very hard and you should not go in front of people and constantly talk about what you do. You should just do it and trust that they will see it. Because I'm a firm believer of this. I'm a firm believer that people do see that you put a lot of effort into it. Don't go to people and say, oh, I'm working so hard all the time, okay, cool, what should anyone do with this?

Speaker 1:

And I guess, kind of on that point, is there any expectation that you have of new hires that come to work in your team when they initially start? Is, what kind of guidance do you give to to people that are coming to work within your team?

Speaker 3:

um, I guess, before I have any expectations, I show them that I care. I try. I didn't do my best job in the last two weeks, but like we had a couple of new joiners and I tried to make a point that I reserve a lot of time for them at the start, just give an introduction, you know, a calm one, or just like who are you? Just tell me a little bit about yourself. There's no strategy in here, just like do you want to know anything? You can ask me why there's a guitar back there and we can talk about it for half an hour. It's totally fine.

Speaker 3:

And once that is kind of established, what I'm trying to say is that I love it when people are dependable, and I mean dependable in the sense of we all make mistakes in our commitments, right? The usual reflex with everybody with me is that they try to make me happy, right? They're like oh, yeah, we can make it, we can make it tomorrow, yeah, we can make it. And then they cannot make it. And then I'm like're like oh, yeah, we can make it, we can make it tomorrow, yeah, we can make it. And then they cannot make it. And then I'm like yeah, but you said you could make it, and then they said yeah, you know, like something came in between and I couldn't do it, and I could do this and that.

Speaker 3:

And then I'm just, and usually then the conversation that I have is that look, tell me that you can do it until tomorrow, but that I can depend on it. So next time please either have a more defensive estimate of what you do or, if you know that it doesn't work, tell me proactively. I value nothing more than people. Just that, spare me surprises.

Speaker 3:

The worst thing that can happen is if I walk into your room and you told me you cleaned it up and I'm like why is there such a mess? It's like those are the kind of things and I think one little neat trick that I do because I'm also seeing myself as an introvert. I'm a social introvert, like I like talking in really small groups, but I hate bigger groups is I have a readme that I'm posting in my Slack, so if you go to my own profile you can see how to deal with me, because I have a couple of things about me that are not so obvious. Everybody thinks I'm an extrovert, everybody thinks I'm this and that, and this is taking a lot of anxiety from the quieter people because they know what's expected from them and I can kind of tell them in a really nice way like hey, here's a manual to Leah, you know, and then they can do with it what they want, and I had very, very good feedback from this, so people seem to love it.

Speaker 1:

I love that idea. That's a great suggestion. You should do it too. I will. I'm going to do it tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

So I actually had lunch with a friend today who's about to start a new job and she had a thesis, which is that no one hires leadership roles hires for a leadership role in a company if the company's going well. So every job you take when you're in senior leadership, you have to assume that the house is on fire, that things aren't going well, that there are problems to solve. The house is on fire, that things aren't going well, that there are problems to solve.

Speaker 2:

So and we've talked a lot about trust today but trust is a two-way- street, so you talked about how you establish trust, but what are you looking for from other people to show that they're meeting you halfway, that they're trying to establish trust, that there might be things hidden that you know? Just validating that you've taken the job that you expected.

Speaker 3:

So I would say, aside from what I said before in terms of like, you have to be dependable and people have to kind of not surprise me, because it's not hard, right, like, I don't have expectations in terms of like, everybody needs to know everything.

Speaker 3:

That's not what it is. I think a very, very important thing that we often forget, is forget, is that a job title is not what a job title means, right, every product manager that I've ever seen had a different job and they all had the same title and it's the same for. Well, what does a head of product do different than a VP product? What does a head of product do different than a CPO? Well, it depends, right, it depends. It depends a lot. It depends, actually on what other people expect from you as well, and what way do you position yourself as a role. So what I'm doing is I'm paying a lot of attention to establishing also what my role is in the organization, and my role in the organization is, aside from building an organization where everybody can be yada yada yada it is to protect specific people from other people.

Speaker 3:

That's what I do, right? Like I'm like mommy that is, keeping the two fighting children out of each other right, like the customers and the engineering and sales, they also want something. So I try to keep everybody at arm's length and try to translate for them. And that's the first thing. And then the second thing is I try not to make their successes mine, and I think that's where a lot of leaders and managers make a big mistake. You have to step back, you just have to step back, and that kind of thing is the easiest way to destroy trust with people, in the sense that if I pretend that something was everything my idea, and whenever it succeeds I'm going to take the, you know, I'm going to take the Oscar and I'm going to have my speech in front of the company.

Speaker 3:

Whenever it was not a success, it was the fault of the teams. I've seen this many, many times. That is the worst thing that you can do. So I guess it's a two-way street, and I think I also am quite open about how I'm being evaluated. I say to people a lot like look, your happiness is important to me, but it also pays my salary right. If you're unhappy, I'm not going to be happy, so help me how to do this right. Happy, so help me how to do this right. It's important that people understand what my role is in this regard, so not sure whether I answered your question, but I guess it's like if it's clear what someone's objective is and mine, is always kind of tied to caring about others and trying to enable them, then it tends to work out most of the time.

Speaker 3:

Not always, but most of the time.

Speaker 2:

I'll just follow up with. Are there any warning signs when you come in in that say that first 90 day period into a role that it may not be what you expected, something that you've learned, some radar that you've developed over your career, to say I need to start thinking about whether this is what I was expecting expecting If I do not have impact anymore, if I feel like I'm losing what I consider to be important.

Speaker 3:

That's the first one. The second one is I'm a learner. I'm a heavy, heavy, heavy learner, like I love learning. I'm not in this job for the money, for sure not. I have very clear goals. I am not someone that you need to manage in the sense of like, oh, let's talk about your growth plan. I have one, right, it's a big one, it's always over there and I also know what I want to achieve and in which portion and how fast. And the question is really simple to my CEO always Like are we on track? Can you help me enable on this stuff? Because this is the main thing that you keep me happy with. It's not the salary, it's the growth plan.

Speaker 3:

But I'm very specific in this regard because I also knew that you have to take your career into your own hands. I don't want to make this a gender thing, but I think I've seen a lot of women, myself included, who just never really took charge and we always kind of assumed that someone will see how much of a good job did we do. I just don't do that anymore. It's very uncomfortable to put yourself in the front right and always say like, hey, look what I did, you know. But what really helps is if you clarify expectations before it actually happens, because, in a way, what you should do is you should always clarify okay, what does it take for me in the next period to be favorably evaluated? Then you don't have any discussions, you don't need to assume that people have always a good opinion of you, and I think that's the most constructive way that I can deal with it. And if that is not a given, so learnings, no more impact. Or if I don't like getting up in the morning, it sounds stupid.

Speaker 3:

You know, like this, I'm telling you my life is absolutely bananas. It's absolutely crazy. I get up at seven in the morning and I go to bed at 11 and there has not been a single minute of time for myself most of the time, and I love it. I love it, but every morning that I get up, it's like, you know, you open the phone and it's almost like an adventure, right? So, like what is today happening? Oh, you know, there's a product experience podcast or something like this. I have so many people who are trying to interact with me all the time. There's good moments, there's bad moments, but there's always something going on and I I really, really enjoy this. If it becomes stale and it becomes a routine, then I usually go, and that's also how what it has been for. For for my last job, that's when I left, right, I left in good spirits, but my learning was just very, very, you know, I felt like I hit a wall.

Speaker 2:

Well, we're rapidly running out of time tonight and we don't want you to hit the wall while talking to us, so we're just gonna stay far away we'll say thank you very much. This has been fantastic.

Speaker 3:

We've really enjoyed this conversation thank you so much for having me thanks, leah.

Speaker 1:

The Product Experience is the first and the best podcast from Mind the Product. Our hosts are me, Lily Smith.

Speaker 2:

And me, Randy Silver.

Speaker 1:

Lerun Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.

Speaker 2:

Our theme music is from Hamburg-based band PAU. That's P-A-U. Thanks to Arnie Kittler, who curates both Product Tank and MTP Engage in Hamburg and who also plays bass in the band, for letting us use their music. You can connect with your local product community via Product Tank regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide.

Speaker 1:

If there's not one near you, maybe you should think about starting one. To find out more, go to mindtheproductcom. Forward slash product tank.