The Product Experience

Navigating the shift from engineering to product - Anuja More (Product Lead, Meta, Whatsapp) at Meta

• Mind the Product

Share episode

Join our conversation with Anuja More, Product Lead at Meta.  We delve into the lessons she learned while transitioning from engineering to product management.  In our discussion, Anuja unveils the change required to switch from a mindset fixated on technical hurdles to one adept at unravelling customer needs, underscoring the vitality of curiosity and problem-solving along the way.

Featured Links: Follow Anuja on LinkedIn and Instagram | Meta | 'How I Moved from Engineering into Product Management' feature by Victor Kosonen at Mind The Product 

Our Hosts
Lily Smith enjoys working as a consultant product manager with early-stage and growing startups and as a mentor to other product managers. She’s currently Chief Product Officer at BBC Maestro, and has spent 13 years in the tech industry working with startups in the SaaS and mobile space. She’s worked on a diverse range of products – leading the product teams through discovery, prototyping, testing and delivery. Lily also founded ProductTank Bristol and runs ProductCamp in Bristol and Bath.

Randy Silver is a Leadership & Product Coach and Consultant. He gets teams unstuck, helping you to supercharge your results. Randy's held interim CPO and Leadership roles at scale-ups and SMEs, advised start-ups, and been Head of Product at HSBC and Sainsbury’s. He participated in Silicon Valley Product Group’s Coaching the Coaches forum, and speaks frequently at conferences and events. You can join one of communities he runs for CPOs (CPO Circles), Product Managers (Product In the {A}ether) and Product Coaches. He’s the author of What Do We Do Now? A Product Manager’s Guide to Strategy in the Time of COVID-19. A recovering music journalist and editor, Randy also launched Amazon’s music stores in the US & UK.

Speaker 1:

Hey everyone, it's Randy here. I'm flying solo on the intro this week and I wanted to go behind the scenes here at the product experience. If you're wondering why our last few intros have been either Lily or me solo, don't worry, we haven't fallen out, all is good, and we've even recorded our normal silliness. We just threw it away because in each of them we teased that we're now both in audio and glorious Technicolor. That's right. We've got new cameras and we're now streaming our podcast on YouTube as well.

Speaker 1:

Except except that we're not engineers and every week has had a different technical difficulty. One week, the video for our guests just didn't render correctly, and another week Lily's camera would not work, and then my camera turned off in the middle of this week's episode. So video is coming, and it's coming soon. But today we brought on someone much more technically adept than either of us. It's Anuja More. She's a product lead at Meta for WhatsApp Business and she chatted to us about moving from engineering to product. If you have any devs in your life that are always asking why, well, this is the episode you should share with them. Okay, no more blathering, let's get right into it. On with the show. The product experience is brought to you by mind the product.

Speaker 2:

Every week on the podcast we talk to the best product people from around the globe visit mindproductcom to catch up on past episodes and discover loads of free resources to help you with your product practice. You can also find more information about mind, the products conferences and their great training opportunities happening around the world, and online.

Speaker 1:

Create a free account on the website for a fully personalized experience and to get access to the full library of awesome content and the weekly curated newsletter Mind. The Product also offers free product tank meetups in more than 200 cities. There's probably one near you.

Speaker 2:

Hi Anousheh, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

Speaker 3:

I am doing very well. Thank you for asking, Super excited.

Speaker 2:

It's very nice to have you here and we're going to be talking about how you transitioned into product management from engineering, which is a bit of a spoiler alert on your intro to you and how you got into product. But tell us the longer story. Give us a quick intro to you and how you got into product.

Speaker 3:

Sure. So I'm a product lead at Meta for WhatsApp's business platform, where I oversee the development of building, you know, conversational experiences between businesses and WhatsApp's global users. And prior to WhatsApp, I worked in meta, you know, developing networking technologies to bring connectivity more broadly. And before that, I've led you've led roles in product management, in software as a service, machine learning, network, analytics and now, most recently, social technology. I'm excited to be speaking with you today.

Speaker 3:

As you know, I started my career out of engineering in India right into software development and I was primarily working on machine learning algorithms, and I remember one of my projects was building a platform for sentiment analysis. I mean, at that point it was less mature. Now it's called, like you know, ai and ML, but this was for, like, retail clients, for, you know, us based startups, and we were, you know, we were engaged with the client for like, requirement gathering, code reviews, demos, so on and so forth, and that's it. I mean there was no visibility as such into the broader needs and how. You know things like how are users using the product? Are they getting the right insights? Are you know, are we helping them drive the right decisions for their businesses?

Speaker 3:

So my move primarily into product was triggered by my interest in, you know, the broader picture.

Speaker 3:

I wanted to oversee the entire life cycle of the product from, you know, ideation to launch and beyond, and this, you know, this transition was kind of organic.

Speaker 3:

I started organizing, you know, some interviews with these retail businesses. I tried to understand, you know, the gaps and bringing them back to the team to see how we could like, standardize some of these metrics and build a comprehensive platform. And that really got me involved into shaping the overall direction and strategy of the product, which I really enjoyed. So it wasn't really a, you know, a formalized role of a PM, I think back then this is talking about like 10 years ago, where PM was not as a formal and a coveted you know title as it is today, and I really enjoyed this space before you know. Then I was like formally, you know, transitioned into something called a product strategy analyst and over time, this broader influence on the product and work brought me closer to other functions within the company, things like marketing and sales and legal, and this was very energizing to drive a broader impact and a problem solving aptitude really solidified my aspiration to get into product management and Danisha.

Speaker 2:

You've kind of covered off so much there. But that initial move from engineering end product and that's the topic that we're covering today, when you mentioned that it wasn't like a formalized role or anything, but did you have product managers on your team or were you filling a gap that was there in the business where there was no one kind of talking to customers and really understanding the customer pain points within the business that you were working in?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, we did really have a formal like pm role per se. We we had, like, engineering managers, we had, you know, business analysts that were primarily responsible for gathering, you know, user requirements and then translating back into you know, the technical language, um, but I think there was no one really responsible for understanding and communicating the bigger picture and then driving the impact back within the team, within the technical team as well, as you know, back to the client side, where we would really collaborate on solving the problem, as opposed to translating the requirements into technical solution. So I was to answer your question. Yes, I was kind of filling in the gap before BM was even, I would say, a popular role in itself.

Speaker 1:

So was there one day when someone just took you aside and say you know you're doing something. It's not straight, a straight engineering role. Let me tell you about this. I think you said you went to a product strategist role first, or how did that? How did that actually happen?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so, uh, we did have. We did have, like I mentioned, that business analyst, which is kind of like pseudo, like product strategy, but in a technical way, and so the product strategy analyst role was primarily on, you know, yes, doing the same kind of business analyst function, but also kind of managing the overall direction and the strategy of what we are building from a standardization perspective, like not really thinking about, you know, how do we solve for one client, but how do we build a platform that can then, you know, serve several end clients in terms of consuming, since this was an analytics product in terms of consuming, the metrics. So, really creating that standardized platform. I think that piece was missing and that's what the leadership realized and they kind of started like formalizing this role more as from a strategy perspective as opposed to a technical analyst role.

Speaker 2:

And to Randy's point. So at what point did you kind of realize that you had become a product?

Speaker 3:

manager. I think it was mostly after I came to the US for my to pursue my MBA. That's when I was exposed to, you know, all of these like associate PMs and this PM rotational programs, and that's when because I had already done similar work, that's what you know solidified my aspiration to get into product management post MBA. Product management post MBA.

Speaker 3:

And when you took your first official product manager role was it what you expected, or was it easier or harder? So when I initially you know, for me it was relatively easier because I was, you know, in my initial role I was working with the same internal teams. When I officially, you know, after post my MBA, moved into product management, I did struggle a little bit because it was a mindset shift, although, you know, business school does expose you to a lot of the concepts of, you know, developing a business acumen, how do you think about, you know, p&l, how do you think about ROI? But at the same time, I think, transitioning from a technical role to a more strategic and customer-focused role does require a mindset shift. You know, engineers may need to shift their perspective from solving technical problems to understanding customer needs or market trends and business priorities. So the mindset shift was, I think, initially a little bit of a struggle.

Speaker 3:

The other piece I think which I had to work on myself was in a traditional corporate setting, was communication. I think, whether it's with leadership or end clients or internal stakeholders, I feel it's the soft skills that really differentiate a good PM and what I call a rockstar PM. Are these soft skills? How do you frame up a narrative? How do you make a compelling argument, how do you communicate with different stakeholders, and these are something that really came to me with practice. But, yeah, those are some of the things that I initially, you know, required some level of getting used to.

Speaker 1:

I'm curious, though, as someone who is well, let's do it two different ways as someone who has made the transition, do you feel like you have an extra insight? Are you able to talk to your dev team, to your engineers, better than you see some of the other product managers around you? Do you have extra insights into them?

Speaker 3:

I do, and it's just not true for like me, but I see a lot of PMs who have had an engineering or a technical background. I think they bring to the table a lot of the transitional skills they do have, a lot of like deep understanding of technology. That makes just enables you to effectively communicate with the engineering teams. You know things like assessing technical feasibility or making informed decisions about features and the architecture. I think that's a piece that is a strength that directly translates to especially a PM role in the tech industry. I think the other piece that, just from an engineering background, you're adept to analyzing data, identifying patterns, solving complex problems, which is a very valuable skill for things like evaluating market trends or user behavior or analyzing product performance in NPM roles. So a lot of these things were definitely, you know, made me differentiate myself in this new role when I was trying to gain new skills, but also bring all of these transferable skills and make me really stand out.

Speaker 1:

Let me go in the other direction as well, though. Do you find yourself sometimes hanging out with the engineers and saying to them you know, you could be a really good PM if you wanted to be?

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. I mean there are. I would definitely, you know, recommend.

Speaker 3:

I do see you know some of the engineers who have that edge, especially as, being in the engineering team, you might have the opportunity to, you know, sometimes be a part of client calls or, while you're like, troubleshooting an issue, you get exposed to like cross-functional teams that you kind of jointly work and collaborate on, you know solving things, or you're part of the leadership review where you now have to translate and communicate what you're working on in terms of the business goals.

Speaker 3:

So, as and when I feel you know there is an opportunity, I do encourage my team, like my engineering team, to, you know, participate in all of these exercises to even like evaluate if and get clarity if this is something that you know they would want to pursue as a career opportunity, because you can, you know that's if that aligns with their long-term goals. So I mean, you know, I do recommend them doing like things like self-assessment, like reflecting on their strengths and interests and career aspirations but yeah, it's very fluid within an organization to really explore these opportunities and try it for yourself to get clarity if this is something for you as an engineer.

Speaker 2:

What kind of things are you assessing for and how can you perform that assessment?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. I think I can go through some of the steps and I think this is something in my experience which I also share with everyone who reaches out to me for guidance on breaking into product engineers or anyone interested in exploring a career in product management can gain some clarity, I think just reflecting on your strengths, on your interests and your career aspirations. I recommend considering whether you enjoy working on a cross-functional team or like engaging with customers, solving business problems and making strategic decisions. I think product management requires a combination of technical, business and interpersonal skills. So assess whether you possess or are willing to develop these skills.

Speaker 3:

And you know I get a lot of questions like should I take up this online course or this workshop or the certifications? And many platforms offer those introductory, you know courses in product management and I get asked if they would help and my take is yes, you may learn more about the key concepts and methodologies and best practices in the field. However, like, what will bring in more clarity is talking to other PMs. So, as a part of this assessment, you know reach out to product managers in your network or within your organization and, you know, ask them about their experiences, their challenges and advice for transitioning into product management. You know, shadowing a PM for a day, for example, or participating in informational interviews can really provide valuable insights into, you know, is this for me and do I see myself doing this in longer term?

Speaker 2:

And for you yourself do you miss engineering at all? Would you ever transition back?

Speaker 3:

hands-on and building and creating solutions, or that the thrill of my code or query running seamlessly with zero errors. That really gave me a sense of fulfillment in my work as an engineer. But having said that, I have also found great satisfaction and fulfillment in my product management roles, you know, as they provide you with the opportunity to really drive strategic decision-making, shape the product vision. You know, see the impact through and through of your work. You know, on a broader scale, as an example, I'm often part of focus group interviews with small businesses in India and Indonesia in my control, which kind of are the largest markets for WhatsApp, and these small businesses are running their entire set of operations on WhatsApp. I mean, some of these don't even have a website. And especially during COVID, hearing firsthand how the work you do has had an impact on people's lives extremely fulfilling. And so, to answer your question, I do miss engineering, but in product management I think it involves such a diverse set of responsibilities. A lot of that can also be intellectually stimulating and rewarding in its own right.

Speaker 1:

This episode is brought to you by Pendo, the only all-in-one product experience platform.

Speaker 2:

Do you find yourself bouncing around multiple tools to uncover what's happening inside your product?

Speaker 1:

With all the tools you need in one simple platform. Pendo makes it easy to answer critical questions about how users are engaging with your product.

Speaker 2:

And then turn those insights into action so you can nudge your users to adopt valuable behaviors. First, pendo is built around product analytics, enabling you to explore how your users behave and what they're experiencing, so you can make strategic optimizations.

Speaker 1:

Next, Pendo lets you deploy in-app guides that lead users through the actions that matter most.

Speaker 2:

Then Pendo integrates user feedback so you can capture and analyze how people feel and what people want.

Speaker 1:

And a new thing in Pendo session replays a very cool way to experience your users' actual experiences.

Speaker 2:

There's a very good reason over 10,000 companies use it today.

Speaker 1:

Visit pendoio slash podcast to create your free Pendo account today and try it yourself.

Speaker 2:

PS. Want to take your product-led know-how a step further? Check out Pendo and Mind, the Products lineup of free certification courses Free Everyone loves a freebie led by top product experts and designed to help you grow and advance in your career.

Speaker 1:

Learn more today at pendoio slash podcast. So when an engineer comes to you and says, Anuja, help me, I think I'm interested in being a PM, you tell them to do the assessment. You tell them to do the assessment. You tell them to do a shadow, but you've mentioned a few different routes that you would normally recommend. Can we go through those? What are the ways that?

Speaker 3:

you would normally give advice on Absolutely, and you know again, for me, I think the way I transition, that's probably like one, just one of the ways. I think the way I transition that's probably like one, just one of the ways. I see like one of the most like common paths you will see people transitioning into product management is post an MBA degree, and I often get asked if pursuing an MBA is necessary to break into product management and the short answer is no. I mean an MBA can help by giving you a deep understanding of you know business concepts and strategies, strong network and even like job placement opportunities. Applying for a job with an MBA in your arsenal it does signal that you're knowledgeable about, like a broad spectrum of topics that might not otherwise be evident from your resume. But most PM job positions have an MBA as a preferred qualification versus a mandatory one. Yes, for some hiring managers you know it's a non-negotiable prerequisite, especially if it's a leadership position. But I think PMs come from various set of backgrounds so that MBA may not be a mandatory criteria. In my case, it was a great platform to build a professional network, to find a co-founder or your boss or your employee. That component, that networking component of an MBA experience cannot be undersold. Working component of an MBA experience cannot be undersold. But it could also take two years and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to get an MBA from a top tier program. So the good news is that there are several ways to break into product management and MBA is just one of them.

Speaker 3:

The other options I feel the easiest and the most organic way is in your current company, transitioning into a PM role in your current organization, and this is a great option if you are already working at a tech company, have a stellar performance history, have some experience with product development, and so what I would advise there is inquire about formal PM rotations in your company. Raise your hand and stretch for PM assignments, network with your current colleagues and managers and discuss your aspirations and readiness to move into product management. I think, as an engineer, some of the things you could explore are can you shadow activities in user research? Can you take on some support calls or can you prioritize backlog with justification? Can you research a competition and a pitch and a relevant feature? So you have to make that elbow room in your current organization to seek these experiences. But this, in my opinion, is the most organic path to transition from a non-PM to a PM role.

Speaker 3:

The other avenue, especially if you're early in your career, are these you know, apm programs or Associate Product Manager Rotational Programs. These are again you know, apm programs or associate product manager rotational programs. These are again highly competitive one or two year programs where a company provides you with on the job training and mentoring that you need to become a successful product manager. So you know research these different programs. You know tailor your applications to each of these. So you know research these different programs. You know tailor your applications to each of these.

Speaker 3:

The application deadlines for some of these close quite in advance, and so pay attention to those. What will make you stand out here is doing side projects and highlighting transferable skills in your resume. That would definitely strengthen your candidacy for such programs. So, yeah, I think we've covered that. But if you really you know you feel you're ready to transition into a product management role as an engineer, apply for a regular PM job. I think the most viable paths for engineers are to consider a platform PM role or an API PM role, or a developer or a gaming platform PM role. You know, a platform PM oversees the development and evolution of a platform that then solves as a foundation for multiple products within an organization, and they really focus on some of the technical aspects like scalability or interoperability, you know, to support the needs of various internal and external stakeholders, and so these are some of the functions where the engineering skills are directly applicable. So look out for those specific roles and bring some of those transferable skills to the table.

Speaker 2:

And Anusha, when you were moving into product yourself, I know that one of the things that I really relied on as I was learning more about product was the community, the product management community. Are there like communities of kind of engineers that have transitioned into product, or would you kind of get people to seek out mentors or other people that are learning about product to lean on when they're going, when you're trying to go through this transition?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, apart from just formal communities, I've done a lot of reach outs on linkedin. Uh, you know it. Just in companies that, where you aspire to be in roles that you identified, where you would be a probable good fit, just reach out to people. I think people are more than happy to talk about what their day looks like. You know, on a day-to-day basis, you know what are some of the challenges in their role, and I think that is the biggest form of research that you can do as you're evaluating if this is even for you. And so, yes, there may be like communities and within that you can find, you know, similar backgrounds and experiences, but you know, talking to engineers who transformed into product managers, just reaching out to them on LinkedIn and speaking about that day-to-day is, you know, just understanding what the role entails, how it differs from their previous role, can really help you determine if the responsibilities and challenges align with your interests and career goals.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting because when I first found out about product, it was through my end manager at the time, and manager at the time it was in a small startup and he'd been networking or like hanging out with a load of people from google and he was like, oh yeah, the google product managers, they're like so amazing. And um, he was like telling me all about them and I was like that's it, like that's the job that I want to do, and he was like you'll never be able to do it because you've not done an engineering degree. And he was like think of something else. You'll never be a product manager.

Speaker 2:

So like I find it really interesting now that that used to you know, that did used to be, especially at Google. I think it was like the only way to get into product was to come in via the engineering route. Like what are you seeing, kind of in the circles that you hang out with? Are things changing? I mean, I don't even know how much things have changed at Google, but at Meta, for example, do you get a lot of PMs come in via engineering or is it just very mixed these days?

Speaker 3:

That's a great question, particularly because and I can speak for Meta and even companies like Google and Microsoft engineering had traditionally been a common route into product management, particularly because a lot of these companies were tech companies which were eng-driven. Like all the decisions were driven by engineers, and this was because engineers often possess the valuable technical skills or the domain expertise and the problem-solving abilities. However, pm roles have definitely evolved. Today, you have roles that can vary significantly depending on the company or the product and the specific focus area. I mean we have consumer product managers, enterprise product managers, we have data and AI and ML PMs or growth PMs, and with these, engineering is not the only route into these roles and there may be many other paths that individuals can take.

Speaker 3:

What I see in and around me, some alternative routes into product management include people from business and marketing background, where skills such as market analysis or customer insights are really valuable for PM roles. We see a lot of design and UI and UX designers who have a deep understanding of user needs or user behavior and interaction design principles that make them really well suited for product management roles. There are also people from like data and analytics background or consulting and strategy background that bring their unique skills. So ultimately, I think, while engineering does provide a strong foundation for product management in these tech companies, I do feel the best route into PM really depends on the individual's background, skills, interests and whether it's the right fit for the organization.

Speaker 1:

To go in a slightly different direction. I'm curious. You know I've never been an engineer. I feel like I can work well with my engineering teams when I've been in the role, but I always wonder I can't read their minds. What am I missing? What is the thing that every dev team secretly wants from their product manager? That they're not getting a lot of the time?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean a developer team typically wants their PM to just provide clear direction, prioritizes the features and tasks effectively. They in turn want to understand the broader goals and objectives behind their work. I mean, that's something that kind of motivated me to make the move. But they want to understand the broader goals and objectives, how it contributes to the success of the product and the company. And there's a little like, you know, caveat there, like keeping engineers and the dev team involved doesn't mean that you know they have to be included on every single meeting. And something that I consciously do is when it gets to the implementation phase. I think it, you know, with much, you know, distraction-free time as possible is really valuable and I've really seen this being appreciated, and usually this means being the point of contact for most things and filtering out the signals from the noise and only passing what is needed back to the team. So really like that clear vision and communication piece.

Speaker 3:

The other thing is collaborative decision making and I have spoken about this at length in some of my other talks and conversations. Is an idea? If you're a PM, an idea is never your own individual idea. You have to make it a shared vision and developers prefer a PM who involves them in the decision-making process and considers their input while setting priorities and defining product requirements. So they do want to be part of these collaborative discussions and have their ideas and insights taken into account.

Speaker 3:

The last thing that I will leave on this point is and this is again you know I try to do it as much as I can is, you know, just recognition and feedback. I feel developers appreciate the recognition for their hard work and contribution to the success of the product. You know, in my previous organization I had started something like an internal monthly newsletter for our team within which kind of goes over all the best updates and cool features that we built and promoting it to target audiences, and I also started hosting learning sessions with the team so they could learn the benefits of our features. And you know how to target audiences and I also started hosting learning sessions with the team so they could learn the benefits of our features and how to use them. So celebrating successes and acknowledging individual and team achievements really fosters morale and motivation within the team.

Speaker 2:

That sounds awesome, and are we allowed to ask what's PM life like at Meta?

Speaker 3:

Of course, I mean working as a PM at Meta, which includes a lot of, you know, startups. Within the behemoth that Meta is, it does offer unique opportunities and challenges just due to the sheer amount of scale and complex the products and services involved, and so PMs at Meta, you know, have the opportunity to work on products and features that impact billions of users worldwide. Users worldwide and I think the scale of the platforms present, you know, exciting challenges and opportunities for innovation, for growth and impact. It's a very mission-driven culture. Meta is driven by a mission to connect people and build community, and so PMs are aligned with those. You know that mission and the values really striving to create experiences that foster those connections and that social interaction. It's also a very data-driven organization in terms of decision-making.

Speaker 3:

Data plays a significant role in, you know, PM in general, but at Meta, I think, we leverage data analytics, user research, you know, A-B testing. We have a culture of experimentation, and so we use all of these like quantitative methods to inform decision making. And, you know, optimize and optimize for growth, decision making and optimize for growth. And it's a very cross-functional organization. I think we collaborate closely with a diverse set of teams across eng design, data science, research, marketing, legal policy to develop and launch products. So all of these, you know, work in a highly cross-functional environment, you know, fostering that alignment across teams which makes the, you know, the soft skills required to be successful in the role even more important.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, lots of different lines of communication to manage. So that sounds like quite a lot of managing, lots of people and lots of lines of communication. So if someone's listening to this and they're like, yes, I want to be a PM and I want to be a PM at Meta, what advice do you have for someone who has that kind of aspiration?

Speaker 3:

I think some of the things that I, you know, advise for people who want to get into product management, and especially at Meta, is not to obsess over job titles too much. I do think that you know what matters the most are your problem solving skills and, within product management, I think it's important to embrace that full spectrum of what product management entails, which is exploring growth or analytics, and strategy and execution or research. Really, you know, developing tangible proof of your abilities in these areas and getting hands-on experience whenever possible is really invaluable in our field and within a company like Meta. The other thing I would also recommend is to start thinking critically about products, and this can be software and non-software products, products that you see and use in your daily life, and I love to do this.

Speaker 3:

With non-software products, like whenever I come across a product I love, I think a bit about why I feel that way, what is awesome about it, what decisions were made to get here, you know what might have been some of the trade-offs or how this product could be improved. And this way of thinking will really prime you, not just for thinking on a higher product level in general, but also for product-related conversations and questions that you might face when seeking out your new role, and so really developing that mindset will set you up for success. The last thing I would say is, just like you know, being adaptable and resilient. The PM landscape evolves every year. We see newer technologies, newer set of properties. So just being we now have AI changing the way everyone operates. So, I think, just like, being open to change and learning from your failures is also crucial, and, you know, just like, have an open, like innovative mindset, I think that will really set you off for success.

Speaker 2:

Amazing Anuja, thank you so much for joining us today.

Speaker 3:

It was a pleasure, Lily. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

Excellent, thank you.

Speaker 2:

The Product Experience is the first and the best podcast from Mind the Product. Our hosts are me, lily Smith and me, Randy Silver. Lerun Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.

Speaker 1:

Our theme music is from Hamburg-based band PAU. That's P-A-U. Thanks to Arnie Kittler, who curates both Product Tank and MTP Engage in Hamburg and who also plays bass in the band, for letting us use their music. You can connect with your local product community via Product Tank regular free meetups in over 200 cities worldwide.

Speaker 2:

If there's not one near you, maybe you should think about starting one. To find out more, go to mindtheproductcom. Forward slash product tank.