The Product Experience

Building a thriving product community - Thomas Leitermann (Senior Growth Product Manager, Personio)

• Mind the Product

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Unlock the secrets to building a powerful product community with Thomas Leiterman, co-organizer for Product Tank in Amsterdam and Senior Growth Product Manager at Personio. Thomas takes us on a journey through his own experiences, starting a community from scratch inspired by Mind the Product Engage in Hamburg, and later merging into Amsterdam's vibrant scene.

Featured Links: Follow Thomas on LinkedIn | Product Tank Amsterdam | Personio | '5 things we learned at the Pendomonium / #mtpcon Amsterdam 2024 roadshow' feature by Louron Pratt at Mind The Product

Our Hosts
Lily Smith enjoys working as a consultant product manager with early-stage and growing startups and as a mentor to other product managers. She’s currently Chief Product Officer at BBC Maestro, and has spent 13 years in the tech industry working with startups in the SaaS and mobile space. She’s worked on a diverse range of products – leading the product teams through discovery, prototyping, testing and delivery. Lily also founded ProductTank Bristol and runs ProductCamp in Bristol and Bath.

Randy Silver is a Leadership & Product Coach and Consultant. He gets teams unstuck, helping you to supercharge your results. Randy's held interim CPO and Leadership roles at scale-ups and SMEs, advised start-ups, and been Head of Product at HSBC and Sainsbury’s. He participated in Silicon Valley Product Group’s Coaching the Coaches forum, and speaks frequently at conferences and events. You can join one of communities he runs for CPOs (CPO Circles), Product Managers (Product In the {A}ether) and Product Coaches. He’s the author of What Do We Do Now? A Product Manager’s Guide to Strategy in the Time of COVID-19. A recovering music journalist and editor, Randy also launched Amazon’s music stores in the US & UK.

Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome to the Product Experience Podcast. This week we're on the road with the Mind the Product Roadshow event in Amsterdam and I spoke to Thomas Leiterman, who is co-organizer for Product Tank in Amsterdam and also Senior Growth Product Manager for Personio. We talked all about how to successfully set up and build your own product community. Up and build your own product community. The Product Experience Podcast is brought to you by Mind, the Product part of the Pendo family. Every week we talk to inspiring product people from around the globe.

Speaker 2:

Visit mindtheproductcom to catch up on past episodes and discover free resources to help you with your product practice. Learn about Mind, the Product's conferences and their great training opportunities.

Speaker 1:

Create a free account to get product inspiration delivered weekly to your inbox. Mind, the Product supports over 200 product tank meetups from New York to Barcelona. There's probably one near you, hi, thomas. Welcome to the Product Experience Podcast.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me Excited.

Speaker 1:

It's great to meet a fellow product tech organizer. I think I can still call myself an organizer, even though I actually haven't done it.

Speaker 3:

If you've done it once, I think you can.

Speaker 1:

I handed it over to the Bristol team. So they are. You know they're doing a fab job without me, but yeah, we were going to talk about what it's like to build a product community today. Before we get started, would you give us a quick intro to you, who you are, what you do? That'd be fab.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, perfect. Yeah, I'm Thomas. I'm originally from the south of Germany, grew up there, then I studied in Germany and in Boston in the US that's a little bit of an acting term, sure, at times and then I started actually straight. I started straight into product as a junior product manager in a company called Eventin, like the Ticketmaster of Europe in the data science function, which is quite interesting. Then I worked at a company where I actually was tasked with building internal products or evaluating product ideas from internally, which was quite interesting. There was a lot of product discovery then.

Speaker 3:

Then I moved to Amsterdam, where I'm still today, and was at the company called the Zone, which is like a sports live streaming platform running their signup product. And now I'm at Personia, which is a HR startup 2015 with 2000 people maybe not a startup anymore, but I run their the service product there since about two years. Yeah, and outside of that, I have a two year old, which is great fun. And yeah, I think kind of product is not only my work but also my passion, like I love reading newsletters, talking to people, and that I think kind of led into, yeah, getting into the product community and building product community. So I've done that in Karlsruhe, where I was before. I started in 2017 there and then I joined the team here in Amsterdam. So yeah, about half a million years now, which is crazy when I look it up. Wow.

Speaker 1:

So you started a product community and also then joined the Amsterdam product community. How has that been?

Speaker 3:

Joining or starting. They're very different anyway.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

I think the starting one was actually super, super interesting. So I was at the Mind the Product conference Mind the Product Engage conference the first one in Hamburg, with a colleague actually, and we just both enjoyed the community feeling so much that we said like hey, we should have that more regularly. And the company that I was at at the time had kind of a culture of hosting meetups. They were mostly around tech, so we did have a lot of like people helping us and it was kind of established that there was a budget for it. It was also a consultancy kind of thing, so, uh, it was working there. And then he basically just encouraged me to say like well, let's just do that, um, and I think that that was really great. And then we reached out to a bunch of folks, um, and yeah, blew it up there, which was it was great fun. Um, learn, learn, learn. Quite a few lessons. Um, how many people did come to the first one? I think the first one was probably like 10 or 12 or so.

Speaker 1:

That's quite nice. That's like a nice group of people because you get to talk to everyone. Then, when it's that small.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think we actually also kind of made the first one to be around. What do you actually want this to be? What are you interested in? I think it helped that we had, like, the company that I was at was kind of known in the city and we kind of co-branded a little bit there and have people join.

Speaker 1:

I think that helped yeah, get it started, yeah so, for anyone who's interested in starting their own product community, what advice would you give them?

Speaker 3:

yeah, I think starting one the biggest one is just do it like, just go out and don't fret about it. Like product is often such a lonely job that people are really excited about having people to talk to and kind of going to a community and being part of a community. So I think it's actually really easy to get people to come once you start doing it. So I would say like, yeah, don't fret about it, just go doing it. So I would say like yeah, don't fret about it, just go do it. And then the second piece what I really appreciated is that if you partner with something like Product Tank, it just gives you a massive leg up. Like it's an established brand. You can tap into the resources. There are people who have run Product Tanks. There is a community of Product Tank organizers. They also help you with kind of calming the meetup costs, for example. So I think that was really really instrumental to kind of have that.

Speaker 3:

And then I would say the other thing is try to find one or two people to do it together with. I think that might be actually the first step, but also it depends a bit. I would also just say like just put it on and then also ask for people who want to be there. Um, I think one thing that I've learned is vet those people as well, because you've got to be working together quite closely and it's a kind of loose commitment as well, because you kind of do it on your own, for free, kind of um. So you need to have a good connection, to sometimes hold each other accountable and to also, I think, need to have an agreement on kind of how things work and kind of how you go about doing it.

Speaker 1:

so, yeah, find a few people, but then also wet them, um, and yeah and yeah, go off together I remember when I started bristol um product community so it wasn't a product tank, right, because I hadn't heard of it. It was so long ago and then I had 20 people come to the first one, which massively exceeded my expectations. In fact, I don't even know what my expectations were. I was like I need this, does anyone else? And one of the guys that turned up, darwin, who is still an active organizer today. He was like hey, you know about Product Tank. And I was like no.

Speaker 1:

And so, yeah, he kind of like let me know about Product Tank. And then we joined forces and it kind of happened organically, like that. So I think you're right, like once you get started and kind of put yourself out there and get the first one done, yeah, then things just kind of take off, I think kind of often people are just kind of waiting for it as well in a sense and then, as I said, like product is such a diverse and different role in each company that having that exchange, having somebody to talk to, I think is like really valuable to us.

Speaker 3:

And I think one of the things that I love about the product community as a whole is that we're somehow managed to all be quite open and transparent about it. Like maybe not if you go out on stage and they have a bit of the company logo attached to what you're saying, but in the one-on-one conversations, like you can have honest conversations with people you've just met, I mean yeah I really, really love that about product community and product people yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1:

I always have that feeling of like oh, I'm with my people now.

Speaker 3:

Yeah this is a big, big therapy session okay, cool.

Speaker 1:

So what other tips do you have for our potential organizers, or even our current organizers?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, I think. So there's a few things that we've learned. So when I joined Amsterdam, it was a well-oiled machine and Amsterdam funny side story, I don't know if people notice is like the second oldest product tank after London. And it happened because Iris used to live in London, go to product tank, but she's actually Dutch. So she moved back to Amsterdam and asked Martin and said like, can I do this in Amsterdam as well? And he was like yeah, why not? And that's how it started back in 2012.

Speaker 3:

So it's one of the oldest ones and so it was kind of a well-established thing, well-oiled machine that I joined and I think some of the things that have worked well for us is kind of establish a bit of a divide and conquer, basically, where we for us, it's working quite well to have like a half yearly planning where we say like, okay, let's pick the one two weeks that we want the things to be in to be in. We try to be in like a six to eight week cadence roughly, and then kind of plot that out, check with the holidays or school vacations to kind of pick that a little bit, and then usually we just divvy up the slots and say like, okay, you go do this maybe around. These are the two or three ideas for the topics. That could be it. Or we have some leads for speakers and then that person basically runs that date and I think it's quite good because it means that person is in the lead and we all notice and they can ask us and we will help and we will be there. But they're kind of it's their task to do it and I think that that's worked quite well for us, that you also know that I don't need to think about his next one. I can think about the one afterwards.

Speaker 3:

I think that's a that's a good one. Um, that has worked well with us. And I think the other piece, what we're now trying to do, is because we're free um of us and we all have day jobs and families, um, it's kind of standardized thing so that we can focus on. Basically, we can focus on speaker acquisition and sometimes location acquisition, but everything around it kind of, how do you kind of how do you write the invite? How do you write the meetup post, the slides, like they're all copy and paste and maybe fill in a bit stuff. I wish I had time to do a bit more chat, gpt stuff around this because I think it's rather easy. But at the moment I kind of just do that, do that myself.

Speaker 1:

But that kind of copy and paste thing if I need to set up something, that's quite helpful because I know if a meetup event is coming up it takes me an hour or so in the evening just to churn it out and get it off yeah which is good, because then you can kind of have it a bit on autopilot and I think one of the things you touched on there about organizing speakers and venue, I know in the early days that was some of the trickiest stuff because you weren't really sure which businesses hosted events and also you're not connected to any of the people who would be interested in speaking. So that can be a little bit tricky.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Have you got any tips or tricks? I?

Speaker 3:

think there are two things that work quite well for us there. I think one is kind of just light the bat signal, Like whenever you are at the product tank and you're kind of given introduction, just say all the time we are looking for speakers, Come talk to me afterwards and even if you're not on the stage yet, we will work with you to refine it. We can revise it together, you can practice. It can be five minutes, can be 15 minutes. Kind of just lower the barrier to entry for people, Because one thing that I really want in the community is to have a good mix of kind of high stakes speakers, like renowned names, but also have the local community come up and present to the local community to actually kind of build that, build that thing locally. So we try to lower that barrier and just talk about that all the time. And the same goes for sponsors as well. Like there's always people work at companies, so you can just say like, hey, we want Product Tank to travel around the city. You're, for example, hiring for product people. Product Tank is a perfect event to get the word out, to get your company known, and we'd love for it to travel around. Just come talk to us, I think, that kind of constant repetition that people know that we're looking for it and that they can always approach us, which, with ideas, I think is one. So just yeah, say that all the time.

Speaker 3:

And I think the second piece is when it comes to speaker acquisition in particular, something. It goes again kind of how great the product community is like. It all feels like one big family, like from marty all the way to a person who is on stage the first time. We're like we're all in this together and what I've really come to appreciate is that even kind of the big established names and speakers, they want to have contact with the community, they want to come and speak and be there. And this is the benefit of Product Tank. They, if you say, oh, you want to come speak at Product Tank, you can kind of save all of that. It's a free event for product people and they all know this. It's kind of established brand name and they actually come out and don't charge a speaking fee because they know it's run by byproduct people for product people, free of charge. There is no like company incentive at Flay. So that's something that, yeah, I really enjoy.

Speaker 3:

And maybe just to give a really example, because sometimes people don't believe that. Like last year, I reached out to Jeff Goddard, Teresa Torres, Marty Kagan, Christian Ayodi and John Koppler of like, hey, whenever you're in Europe or Amsterdam, we want to host you, Just let me know. They all replied within 24 hours and just said I'd love to. I keep it on my calendar.

Speaker 3:

Um, with Jeff, he was like I'm gay, let's just ECC'd in his executive assistant and next time he was in town we made it happen and then we just found a sponsor to help with travel costs and that's like he literally came out just for the product thing because he wanted to and he was like, yeah, I'll come out, I want to, I want to speak with the community and have a chat. And I think that just goes to show, yeah, how great that community is and I think the advice there is just yeah, don't be afraid to reach out and entice it maybe with saying like we will cover, we have somebody covering your travel and accommodation and offer work organization and you're part of kind of like building a product community within that large organization.

Speaker 1:

If you would have the same, I mean you probably wouldn't have the same response, right?

Speaker 3:

no, no. So which is right? I mean, that's kind of like if you have a company, have the company pay for that's how how it works. So I think this is a really special thing of like a free, like no monetary stuff involved at all community where that thing kind of work.

Speaker 1:

And also, if you're not running a community or interested in running community, a great place to start as a speaker as well, if you want to get some experience on stage crafting your story and sharing your experience and helping other product people yeah, something that I've done quite a bunch is like if I see that people from kind of locally if they are about to speak at the conference like if this, if the conference announced their lineup.

Speaker 3:

Sometimes it was especially in carthage, where it was a much smaller city, not as known as amsterdam, not as frequented by other happen chances as Amsterdam. Something that I did there was check kind of if people were going to speak at conferences and basically pitch them to say like hey, do you want to practice your conference? Talk at this product tank.

Speaker 1:

Nice.

Speaker 3:

Uh, because it gives them kind of the stage confidence like it's a it's a win-win for both kind of come out, do your talk and you'll get a good feeling for it. And I think that worked. I think at least twice.

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Speaker 1:

So any other final hints or tips for people that are interested in running a community?

Speaker 3:

I think, looking back, something that I kind of come back to all the time is that as a community you kind of want to try to find a balance between, like, the big names and the local ones and kind of having a having a good mixture.

Speaker 3:

And something that I've come to kind of see as a hidden secret for product tanks is try to find a good match of this, because the big speakers and the logos they kind of trotter people in, so in a in a sense, you need them because it helps you get a wider audience, helps you get people in. They need to have kind of an incentive to say, hey, I want to hear how this speaker at XYZ company does things and hear kind of their secret sauce, although they're all doing somewhat similar right, but then actually what people really enjoy is the discussion with their fellow product people right In the time after the talks, when they like mingle with each other. So I think, trying to find the balance for this and also always make it true that you have time for this, that you have an account for time for people to mingle, have chats, have enough drinks as well, and kind of do that together, I think that's, yeah, trying to find the balance.

Speaker 3:

So I think also sometimes, when we build speaker lineups and kind of try to piece things together, you kind of sometimes try to have like a full speaker with like a bigger logo or a bigger name and then have some smaller ones where you actually know that the talk of the other speakers you might have heard it before, so you know that that's going to be the really intriguing one that people come away with um.

Speaker 1:

but yeah, kind of having that call for people to come and then making sure that you leave enough time and enough surrounding um to have that conversation afterward it sounds very similar to me and randy on the podcast, where people think they're coming to listen to the speaker but actually they're just here for our jokes and our banter good, definitely not that is definitely help um. So you've been attending and organizing product tanks for a very long time.

Speaker 1:

Seven-ish years um, I'd love to know what piece of advice have you heard or have you been given in your product career that has really shifted your perspective on product management.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I have to say this was actually not at a meetup, but one that I always come back to was at a product conference in San Francisco which I got to go to because I was a product tank organizer. There was Michael Sippy there organized. There's the connection um, there was michael sippy there and he actually just had this. One line that is so simple that it always stuck with me is that, as a product manager, you should never have bulleted list lists.

Speaker 3:

You should always have numbered lists because, and I get so simple and whenever, whenever I click the bulleted list thing, I'm like no, let's go to numbers and let's reprioritize that and it's just, it's so simple and it's so intuitive, like whenever I go there I'm like I actually want to number it and let's reorder this and put it in and have a think about it, because it goes so much to the essence of what product management is, which is kind of giving clarity and priority so yeah, that was one that kind of stuck with me I love it.

Speaker 1:

So we're here in Amsterdam today, which is such a pleasure to be in Amsterdam. It's been great.

Speaker 3:

I'm glad that we have a Mind2Product conference here, yeah it's so cool, it's really emerging as a product hub as well.

Speaker 1:

So how have you found today what's been your highlight? Have you had any other moment where you've got a bulleted, no numbered list recommendation?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's a really good one, I think. So, first off, I think it's great to have this event here and kind of have the community, and what I also really like to see is that we attracted kind of a different crowd than what we did with Product Tank, which is really interesting to see. That like there's just so many companies and like they hear about things differently. So the more channels you have, the the better. I think something that I really uh took away from from abby's talk that really resonated with me is kind of this riding the waves metaphor, which is kind of like yeah, you, you need to be ready to jump on it and ride it, but then also like there's the next one coming and there's also a time between the ways where it kind of things quiet down, but then you need to get ready to go on to the next one.

Speaker 3:

And I often feel that in the product world, in the tech world, there's always stuff where it's kind of crazy busy, but then there's always also time where it's a bit less, and I think, especially when it's a bit less, and I think especially when it's a bit less, also take time to relax. Yeah, take that chance, because you know that the next wave is coming and I think that kind of ties into a bit of the well-being discussions that I think are also happening. That something that I took away from me is like okay, this is going to be a push period, and then I also make sure that I'll take the time in the kind of that words, that words period yeah, exactly, I've heard that um described as like riding the creative roller coaster or that sort of dipping in and out of ambiguity and certainty.

Speaker 1:

Um, it's such a, you know, common way of product managers to experience their work.

Speaker 3:

So, yeah, I think it's really important also to make sure that you do both of that, because I think otherwise it can get really training like always, like oh, we could do this, but this and this. Oh, there's so many options like what's the uncertainty? How do I try that out? We're converging and then doing yeah also has a lot of place.

Speaker 1:

Where are you at at the moment? Are you on an hour for us?

Speaker 3:

At the current product. We're on the down. We launched the product to GA in April and we're like features, features, features, because it's a service product. So we're in a very established category and we just need to add stuff and ship and build feature scope that I know people want.

Speaker 1:

And you were taking part in a panel earlier and you mentioned something around table stakes and it's interesting because it's something that I talk about quite a lot. So what do you mean by what is a table stake? I guess it alludes to your, you know, just building features.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, it's something that I'm so, before I get into that, maybe taking a slight step back. So I used to be very kind of like anti-feature, thinking of like no, it's only like problems and we shouldn't do features. But everything has its place and the product that I'm currently in as a surveys product is like surveys is such an established category, like it's been around almost forever, and employee engagement as well since a long time. So there is just a lot of features that competitors offer and what we did is basically we categorized them into kind of acquisition blockers, like if you don't have this, you're never going to buy it.

Speaker 3:

Table stakes for us is kind of it's an expectation now because so many others have it.

Speaker 3:

And then we have the third group, kind of best in class slash differentiators products, and I think for us the table stakes pieces at the moment are really pieces where we say like we got into the market with kind of a core feature set, but now we need to add these table stakes to go in and say, yeah, actually if people think about service, that's what they expect and we should have that available to them.

Speaker 3:

I think the interesting piece is and I think this speaks to kind of stuff that's happening in the Gen AI world is that those table stakes going back to the Kano model, they keep changing right, they keep moving up, and I think that's part of the situation that I'm in with. The product is like, the expectations have been growing so long that we just need to add to these table stakes, and I think that is a bit what's happening with with gen ai. Slowly but surely, we're like summarization things will become table stakes and providing insights from data will become table stakes, and then yeah yeah, you need to have it at some point yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 1:

I remember, you know, back when I started working in product, people would say things like it doesn't have to look good, it just needs to work. And it's interesting. I remember, you know, back when I started working in product, people would say things like it doesn't have to look good, it just needs to work. And it's like that's just not the case. People like the expectation of the customer is so, you know, so far advanced because of all of the beautiful experiences that they get to experience every day and kind of take for granted.

Speaker 3:

Um, so, yeah, this is a super interesting point, kind of.

Speaker 3:

Again, I worked in an hr company and hr tech had been a very neglected uh business where it was exactly a lot of that for a long time, where it's like it just needs to work, like it doesn't need to make sense or be intuitive or look good. Um, and I think now that table stakes have risen immensely and one of the big focuses for us actually is to even leapfrog there and say, well, your HR software and your HR product should actually be as easy to use as your Spotify or PayPal app, with a few clicks and you don't need to think all about it and be sure, and it needs to kind of prevent failures or at least give you good errors Like those kind of things, instead of just saying, no, sorry, this is not working Right. That's what a lot of tools currently do. So I think, yeah, it's a big shift that I think, especially in B2B, is still happening, which is also exciting because that means there's a lot of ground that we as product people and product world can build and get to.

Speaker 1:

And do you manage that alongside, like an outcome driven roadmap, where you have, okay, we need these table stakes, like we need to meet the customer's expectations by delivering these features, but then also we need to move these metrics, expectations by delivering these features, but then also we need to move these metrics.

Speaker 3:

Or are you just?

Speaker 1:

like let's just get this shit done and then we can like focus on the real work.

Speaker 3:

It's a bit of it's more the latter at the moment, but we definitely have kind of KPIs in mind and I think what we have learned, what is very prominent for us is kind of the survey process, like the steps that happen, like from defining what the survey is to coding it to running it, and in each step you have a certain goal, like, for example, when you run a survey, you want to have a high participation rate, and when you analyze the survey, you want to get to the insights the quickest, maybe even to unique insights that you can't think of or you wouldn't have imagined before.

Speaker 3:

When you go to results distribution, you want to unique insights that you can't think of or you wouldn't have imagined before. When you go to results distribution, you want to make sure that everybody exactly sees what they are allowed to see. You can kind of customize it. So each of these steps kind of has a goal, and I think that's kind of the outcome piece that we currently have, where we say A, we know there is a big pain in these steps that either free tools don't do or point solutions don't do as good, but we want to focus on them and then we kind of list the features from there, or we even go into the features specifically and say like, or into that process step specifically and say how can we contribute to this?

Speaker 3:

topic to this goal to this KPI that you or may actually need, that you actually need, that you probably have in this step, and I think the KPI piece itself for the product is something where we have tracking on, but we're not using that to the deep disk. It's currently up around like a few hundred customers, so it's just now emerging that that data becomes useful. So I think it's kind of I see it as a next step and we'll look at a lot of the business metrics actually, like ARR conversion rate, attach rates, those kind of things Cool.

Speaker 1:

Thomas, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

Speaker 3:

It's been really great chatting to you, thank you, thanks for having me. It was super exciting to share. And yeah, just encourage mentioned just do it like get out, build. The community needs more people that build it and actually want to get into it. Especially if you do it with a community like product tank, it's actually much less work than you originally think, so just get going thank you so much.

Speaker 1:

The Product Experience hosts are me, Lily Smith, host by night and chief product officer by day.

Speaker 2:

And me Randy Silver also host by night, and I spend my days working with product and leadership teams, helping their teams to do amazing work.

Speaker 1:

Luran Pratt is our producer and Luke Smith is our editor.

Speaker 2:

And our theme music is from product community legend Arnie Kittler's band Pow. Thanks to them for letting us use their track. Thank you.