Nico Doorn: Competition and Collaboration

Tripp and Nico are competitors on paper. Their respective companies, Green Hill and Alpha 180, basically do the same thing, yet they struck up a friendship built on mutual admiration and respect. In this episode, they talk about the challenges of leading an organization, the importance of having mentors, the best ways to cultivate a healthy company culture, and how to prioritize intentional time with family.

Nico Doorn, M.Ed., is the Executive Director of Alpha 180, a Transitional Living Program and outpatient treatment provider for young men in downtown Austin, Texas. He was born in the Netherlands, grew up in Raleigh, NC, and entered recovery in Nashville, TN. He has a master's in education in human development studies with a focus on clinical mental health counseling. Nico brings over a decade of experience in the addiction and recovery field and has worked in various settings, from residential treatment to collegiate recovery. When he's not working, you can find Nico going for a run, hanging out with his family, and playing disc golf. 

Find us on the web:

• Advaita Integrated Medicine
• Green Hill Recovery

Transcript

Welcome to the business of human flourishing podcast where we investigate how business can be used as a force for good, especially as it relates to healthcare, education and technology. Today, I get the privilege of speaking with Nico Dorn, a good friend and someone I greatly respect and admire. Nico serves as the executive director at alpha one at a transitional living program, an outpatient treatment provider for young men in Austin, Texas. Also, alpha 180 is one of our biggest competitors, which makes this really interesting episode, at least for me. So, Nico, welcome to the pod. Thanks, Tripp

excited to be here and talk about collaborating and competing.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background again, I know I've heard this story a few times. But I think you've got an awesome story. And it really speaks as to kind of your why and what you do and bring to the table.

Yeah, absolutely. And I always feel like I have to preface when I start talking about alpha at that I that I get long winded because it's so tied into my personal story and what I care about and what I think about and so I'll do my best to stay on course. But in short, you know, I was a guy that, uh, that needed a program like Greenville recovery or alpha at. I grew up in Raleigh, North Carolina, where you are now live in Austin, Texas, and was going to a high school there in Raleigh. And in 10th, grade, I was asked to leave for some substance use issues. And also, you know, just not showing up to school and just get in lots of trouble. And, you know, over those years, I was really struggling with my own mental health, came from divorced parents, and just had a variety of challenges that, you know, I started really struggling with, which led me to abuse substances and just starting, you know, having issues of my own, basically. So I left high school in 10th grade, and not too long later, found myself back in a treatment center and began my own recovery journey when I was 20 years old. Back in the beginning of 2010. And in short, you know, like, most people in early recovery, I really didn't have any plans, I really wasn't super concerned about what happened next. I was detailing cars at this point in Nashville, Tennessee, I was making $12 an hour, which was awesome. I was

old, were you 20 years old. 20, then Okay, awesome.

So that felt pretty good, you know, not too bad. But I had some people start encouraging me to think about what I might want to do with the rest of my life. And, you know, it seemed logical to think about a career in the addiction treatment field, you know. And the guy that I was living with, who's still my best friend to this day, um, had dropped out of college when he got sober. And his dad was really pushing him to go figure out school, like, let's finish this degree and did some research and found out about Texas Tech University's Collegiate Recovery Program, which is basically on campus support services for recovering students, one of the first in the country, and it's very well established. And so this buddy of mine was going to go check that program out. And he invited me and said, you know, why don't you come check it out with me, and we'll see what it's all about. And at that time, I was thinking, there's absolutely no way that I'm going to college I, you know, I'm a high school dropout, but what the heck, well, you know, free trip, it'll be fun. So we went out to Texas Tech, and, and I was exposed to this world of collegiate recovery, but also a world of young, sober people are doing really cool stuff with their life. And it inspired me to, you know, want to see what I was capable of. So that was kind of where things started.

Yeah. So I mean, for those. For those listeners who don't know about Texas Tech's collegiate recovery program, it's really incredible. I had the privilege of going out there a couple of years ago, and not only were they kind of one of the first but they have just incredible resources for the students, but then also doing a lot of cool research around, you know, recovery, especially with the collegian population. So after that, so you ended up finishing your undergrad at or starting and finishing your undergrad at Texas Tech or now.

Started undergrad at Texas Tech also started my career in addiction treatment, behavioral health care out there in Lubbock, Texas. But I actually I have a son who is now 14 years old, but at the time was like two and was working on getting him back in my life. And so long story short, I didn't want to move him out to Lubbock, Texas, so I moved back to Nashville, Tennessee, and transferred to a You know, little private school there and finished up undergrad while continuing to work in the addiction treatment industry and raising myself, so it was a busy couple years.

Tell me, I mean, what advice do you have for anyone going, you know, going through college and having a kid, right. I mean, that's fascinating for for me, like, I'm, we'll get into my all my fears around starting a family later. But and what was that experience? Like? I mean, I, I think this is one of the most admirable, you know, things about you. And I think everyone picks up on it very quickly how much your family means to you. So tell me about having, you know, having your son with you, you know, as you're trying to really get your feet under you as an adult.

Honestly, if it, if I didn't have my son, I'm not sure that I would have been as motivated to do school. So it really goes hand in hand, even though it made my life much busier, and much fuller. I just had really internalized this, like, idea that I was going to be a good dad, and I was going to provide it. So that that turned into something I wanted for myself, but it really started as something I just wanted for him. So, you know, I always like whether I'm talking to a young guy in early recovery, or, you know, even a sponsee or anything like that. It's, you know, what are you pursuing with passion in your life? Like, what are you just waking up ready to do today? And for me, it was be a good dad. And one of the ways that I could be a good dad was do well at school. That was my path. So I don't know. I mean, there's nothing more selfless than being a good parent. If you're doing it, well, you probably don't have much time for yourself. And I just got used to that.

Yeah, that's awesome. So finished up your undergrad there and then got your master's in education. Tell. Tell us about that.

Yeah, so in Nashville, there's really one university that has a collegiate recovery program. And that's Vanderbilt University, which also happens to be a school with a pretty solid reputation. And so I put my sights on that. And, you know, I tried to transfer in an undergrad and didn't get in, got a chip on my shoulder and set my mind to getting in for graduate school. And so, you know, I build some bridges with the folks that do the recovery services there and was able to kind of carve out a graduate assistantship that helped me pay for school, and went into basically a counseling program. It's an education school, but it's, it's a counseling program. And so yeah, it worked for the university and their Collegiate Recovery Services, while going to school, and working in the treatment industry all along the way. So it was, it was awesome. I mean, honestly, like, it's hard to talk about your own accomplishments. But getting into Vanderbilt was a big deal. It was something that I want to share with people, because I just knew I couldn't do stuff like that a few years before, and then it was happening. And it really made me think, Wow, like, if this is possible, anything's possible. And so that was a big stepping stone. And

I want to double click on kind of two things about that story first, you said you got a chip on your shoulder. So just talk about kind of reframing that how you kind of probably reframe that and use it for motivation.

I think, you know, for I mean, I'm not just for people in recovery, but maybe especially for people in recovery. There's this feeling of just being different from other people. And there's almost like a kind of this morbid pride and being like, alternative and contrarian, and you know, all that stuff. And so, I just Vanderbilt represented like, the other people. And I was like, I am going to infiltrate your, your situation here. And so it just became like a challenge. Yeah, it was it was a challenge.

Well, and I think the other point I wanted to click on was the you talked about building a relationship with some people there probably about after you didn't get in, you know, for undergrad, you started, you know, really thinking about how to build a relationship. I think that that for me is something we'll talk a lot about, but you know, how you build a network and kind of if you don't try try again, we actually have a guy who's working for us at Green Hill right now trying to get his master's he was turned down from for undergraduate at Chapel Hill. And we I was kind of coaching him through this process of like, hey, like, if you really want to go to school here, you know, figure out like one get involved in the collegiate recovery. Now, though, let you come now, to start to look at the professor's who's kind of out there. How can you kind of put them in your net Word so that they're championing, you know your cause as well. So, did you do any any of that kind of work? I'm guessing?

Absolutely. I mean, I think something, I don't know why I'm like this, but I'm not afraid to reach out to people and, you know, try to have a cup of coffee, send them an email, you know, always being humble about it, but also, just letting folks know that you're interested, no one is going to not like someone that's excited about what they do. So to just kind of show up and be like, Yo, I'm really excited about what you guys doing, how can I be a part of it. And I started that process with Vander bill, probably three years before I actually got to school there. And, you know, I do my best to just have a long term mindset, like, even you know, with the guy like you, it's like, I'm probably gonna know you for a while, I might as well get to know you better. And I think if you bring that philosophy, and you're not afraid to, to just research or reach out research folks network, it always serves me well.

What a good segue into kind of our relationship, because I'll say from you, you've been in the field a good bit longer than I have. I remember maybe going to my first couple of conferences, and I was like, Man, that guy is cool. He knows everyone. They started like a program that on, you know, on paper, like we do a lot of similar stuff. I think there's a very similar kind of purpose and why and what we're really passionate about. And so I'm like, man, I mean, screw this guy, right? Like he's doing what I'm doing. The way we're gonna get along, and I think like, for me, this has been, I think you I don't know, who reached out, I think we were always friendly. Everyone's always friendly in this field. Right? But then the difference being from going from kind of just maybe, frenemies, we could we could set you know, like that. I think that that's a common theme in, in the treatment world, right? Like, we spend time with people. And it but at the same time, we're definitely like, head to head competitors, if we're just, you know, thinking from a business lens. So what's your take on how we were able to kind of strike up a friendship?

I mean, honestly, man like it, it never really crossed my mind not to try to be friends, I, you know, I it's not to say that I don't look at some people with a more competitive kind of eye. But I think, you know, when I get a good feeling, and kind of hit it off with somebody, then that's enough for me. And so it didn't really cross my mind not to try to get along.

This is why I have so much respect and admiration for you. Because I like limbic brain and I'm like, I it's, it's its competitors until we prove otherwise. And then I'm always feel like a jackass afterwards.

I mean, well, that's what I was gonna kind of say is like, I think, and I don't want to say this is a bad quality of mine or anything, but I was naive to how competitive The space is. And I've had to kind of reconcile, like this part of me that's like, so heartfelt. And this is such a passion project with the fact that like, this is business and, you know, there are folks out there that, you know, I don't want a client that should come to us go into that, I don't mind a client that should come to us going to Greenville. I don't love it, but I'm okay, you know, I know they're going to a good place. But you know, another thing is, just after a couple of years with the project, I just needed new ideas, I needed to talk to peers. And so I intentionally started reaching out to some of the folks that are kind of, at our level owners or executive directors of similar programs. And for the most part, everyone's willing to share, and you've been especially willing to share and I need to learn so, um, so I was kind of at a necessity.

I think that's like, super important because I think for me, I, for whatever reason, I don't know if it's, I was an only child and a competitive athlete, but I just, I kind of default to competition. And I really hate it too. Because I'm like, I don't even want to be that way. But that's kind of how like, I initially view things. So I've spent a lot of time trying to work kind of through that on my own. And I've, I think what you hit on though, with if you reach out to these other kind of peers, and you build that actual relationship. It's it's a game changer, because it's no longer you know, greenhealth versus alpha 180. It's a Nico and trip, we're gonna break bread and talk about how to do everything better. And just, we're probably sharing so many of the same struggles and it's really nice to just have someone who understands where you're coming from. And then you like, I think, like, what's so interesting for me is, I can go in with a competitive mindset break Read with someone and I'm like, Oh my gosh, like we're all in this human condition together. Like, let's try and let's, let's just make it better. So, you know, I'm certainly glad that we were able to strike up a friendship.

Yeah, and I honestly, we, we have different skill sets, and we have different backgrounds. And I think, you know, I've appreciated you've been complimentary of the things that you look up to about me, and I've tried to do the same with you. And so, you know, we can make each other better in that way. And also honestly, like, if I'm just being strictly logical, don't care about people's feelings, it's still in my best interest to be collaborating, snack. Important. I mean, you are, you and your team are you're going to be talking about alpha 182, the same people that we are, and vice versa. So like, I want that good word of mouth, I want you telling people how great of a guy I am. So like, even if I'm being selfish, it's still a good move.

And I think that's one of those because you hit on it earlier, but it's having that long term view, because otherwise it can feel like, Hey, we have, you know, we know that there are three guys deciding between alpha 180 and Greenhill. And like, we could say something underhanded, or try and cut, you know, cut someone down. This happens, like we've we've probably both had it happen to our programs to, but that's so short sighted, I mean, and if you can just have that, hey, we're going to be doing this for a long time. It, you know, it is in your best interest. And I think that's like one of my biggest, you know, lessons that I would want to share to people is like, you know, your network matters. And, and that's, you know, ultimately one of the most important things.

Absolutely. And I think I've been fortunate to have people in my life that have that mindset, you know, the I worked at Cumberland heights in Nashville, Tennessee, it's like 5060, or something. Alpha 180 is owned by an individual that also has, you know, a 30 year career in the addiction treatment space. And they they talk to me about this, that, you know, they have, in essence, carried the same relationships through all of those years. And so you're not going to get rid of each other. Most likely, you might as well be friendly with each other, and it always kind of comes back around. And so, like I said, I mean, you do have to be, you know, you have to be careful and thoughtful because I have had to learn the hard way that not everyone's going to think that way. You know, like, you can't be friends with everybody. But when it comes to people like us, like we could not be more similar in terms of our programs. And so like, you might as well, and, you know, that definitely has worked out well, in this case, for sure. Really, so

why and it just makes it more fun to like, you know, look getting the other great thing about this field is like you get to go see your friends all over the country. Like, there's, you know, there's no stranger kind of thing. Tell me a little bit because you mentioned your time at Cumberland heights, and then also that, that alpha 180 has an owner that has been in the field a long time. Tell me some about your mentors and and how you kind of you think about getting mentorship, but I'm obviously a lot of what you're doing and alpha 180 is these mentorship type relationships as well. So, you know, where do you go for mentorship? And then, you know, how do you try and pay that forward?

Well, I mean, if I'm just speaking from my own view of alpha 180, like, I really see myself as very fortunate that I basically have this platform to challenge myself and grow every single day. So like the I just approach life as like I'm learning all the time. So, you know, you had sent me this question advanced, I thought about unlike almost every relationship I approach, it's what can I learn from this person, you know, and so, I have some folks in my life where it's a little more formal, like our owner, his name's Bob Ferguson. He's the chairman of the National Association of addiction treatment providers. He's an excellent guy to learn from, he's also just someone that I admire in lots of different aspects of his life. So I have that I have. My friend that I referenced earlier that I went to college with, he's now you know, Dr. Nicholas Hayes, Chief Science Officer, and we've competed all along the way in life. And so now he's, uh, I don't know who's winning, but like, I, I look up to him, and I run things by him. I also think, you know, my wife is a great mentor for we're so different in personality, but similar in values, and so she really challenges me in the way that I approach relationships and you know, nothing like your spouse to kind of Suppose the areas that you need to work on so and that, you know, I do have like a professional coach that I work with to where it's a little more formal, but I really have most of my relationships, I think, kind of fall into the category of, of mentor mentee, depending on, you know, who's needing something and who's receiving something. But so there's a long answer, but it ties into what we were talking about earlier, where if you just kind of approach life with, you know, what can I learn from this person, you'll never really go wrong, and you'll keep growing.

So I got to ask, because I feel like I have worked so hard to learn that lesson. And it feels like it's natural to you. And I think it is, I just like, That's so cool. But, um, I mean, I really feel like, especially the last four or five years, for me has been, you know, trying to quit approaching things, like it's a zero sum game, and really trying to, you know, look at the world as more benevolent and that other people are not out there to get you. But for some reason in my hardwiring, like, it's an effort every day, so is that I mean, is that something you had to work for? Or did you find that kind of natural curiosity and desire to learn from other people, like, that's just always been there?

You know, I mean, I am a pretty intense, like, cynical, like, high expectations type of person. But fortunately, or whatever, like, the logic part of my brain figured out that it's just a better way to be like, if I do want to win, but a better way to win is for people to like you and to try to learn as much as you can along the way. So, you know, maybe I got a little bit of grace with, like, the personality that I have. But I also think I just, I just need to help you know, I just like I, we all when I was raising, yeah, I mean, when I was raising my son on my own and going to school, like, there was just no freakin way I was going to do that without some people helping me along the way. I've always been a hard worker, which, you know, most people are not hard workers. So that alone will kind of set you up a little bit. And so just like by needing help, I got connected to people. And then I, I did my part. And then that process just kind of unfolded into more and more opportunities. And over that time, I just realized, you know, this works. This is this is a good way to be, so I'll keep trying to do it. But I don't want to paint a picture that I like. I mean, I think I'm right, a lot. My wife will certainly agree to that. I think plenty of people can do better. You know, not everyone has something to teach you. But certainly a lot of people do.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's, uh, let's kind of turn that question on its head a little bit. And I mean, what's it like, because you're the executive director, you know, you've got a whole team. And, you know, for better or for worse, I think like, you know, there's always the element of approaching a situation is like, what can I learn from this, and that's true, I know, you approach that your team like that, but also mentally, like, the responsibility is on your shoulders, you know, you, you don't get to say, Oh, I was just learning, like, you have to make decisions and you have, and we all do, and we all wrestle with the consequences. But what's it like to be in that position?

You know, I think something and this is specifically kind of what I'm working on with my coach that I work with is just, you know, humility being knowing your assets and your liabilities. And so I, I have been generally a pretty confident person. You know, I whatever I approach like, I give my all into it, and you know, so there's various examples of different things but like, how I got through school with my kid and all that stuff, like it really did kind of fill that part of me that's like I'm capable I'm, I have been people in so to speak society, like getting an A Vanderbilt, not everyone can do that, or raising a kid on your own, not everyone. So you know, those things, just put some confidence in the tank, to where, you know, you face another challenge, and you go, I do know what to do. I, I have faced this in my other jobs that I've had or other things I've done in life. And so, you know, yes, always being a learner, but also, when you're in charge of an organization, you have to be decisive. You do especially for programs like ours that are trying to be excellent. You know, you have to have a high bar, and so hold people accountable to that high bar. You know, I guess on a practical sense, like we're very values driven and so we really hammer home like our company values and And what we stand for. And so when you face a decision, you kind of have a framework for like, how are we going to face this and, you know, putting the community first or you know, whatever. Making sure you know, safety comes before passion, you know, whatever. So like, when you face something like a pandemic, you kind of go, alright, well, this is how we're going to prioritize overcoming this challenge. And yeah, you just, you know, sometimes I'm really confident, and sometimes I'm acting confident, and just working through

it. I always tell people, if I seem super confident, I'm like, 60% sure that I'm correct, because 5149. But that's really interesting. So values based decision making is something, you know, we talk about some here at Green Hill, and I think it's really important. I, you know, I kind of believe that our values are the foundation of everything we do. And that, honestly, most of our suffering comes from when we're not aligned with our values, or when we're not allocating our time based on what we know that we value deep down. And I know, one of the things we'd like to talk about is kind of, you know, company culture, where organizational culture, you know, what, what kind of thoughts do you have on how to build a good culture, a cohesive team? That kind of thing?

Well, I guess, you know, taking a few steps back on that question, I mean, the addiction treatment industry as a whole, I think is pretty, pretty wrought with toxic work environments. And, you know, I've had a play, if you will have had a challenging life, I would say, My life's been pretty challenging. And I decided, like, if I'm going to do this type of work, I want to feel good doing, I want to have fun doing it. And so from the beginning, alpha 180, was going to do our best to create a healthy culture for our staff. And, you know, I looked at some of the organizations that I felt like, didn't have that. And a lot of times, I felt like my opinion is the person in charge wasn't doing the personal work necessary to lead with from a healthy example. And so I've tried to take that seriously from the get go and not look at alpha 180 as strictly, you know, profit driven business, but also just kind of a platform for both the clients and staff to better themselves and grow. And so I just brought that framework, I guess, um, and that led me to just do a lot of a lot of reading a lot of listening to podcasts, just consuming information, I'm sure you do the same thing about what healthy leadership and healthy culture development looks like. As far as how we approach that, like, you know, like we've both said, I mean, being values driven is the beginning. I mean, that seems so simple, but plenty of places don't do that. So the basics of knowing what your values are, and onboarding with them, and repeating them and making decisions from them, I think that'll go a long way. And I have learned, and I'm definitely still learning this, but I came in very strong with being heartfelt and touchy feely as an art, like we're, we can talk about our feelings here. And this is a safe place. And, you know, what I found was like, especially in the addiction treatment industry, a lot of people are in recovery in some form. And so they're kind of used to talking about their feelings. And they're also probably drawn to their work, because they feel this obligation to give back or, you know, whatever. And it's very tied to some of their personal stuff. So it's very easy. Well, it's quite easy to create an environment where it's very vulnerable and open and everyone loves each other. And that's what we did really well. But I saw that leading to burnout too. So people were, people were telling me, this is the greatest place I've ever worked. But then after two years, they're ready to move on. And I felt like that was because we kind of overdid it on being emotionally a safe place and under it with structure. So where I am today, with developing company culture is, you know, finding a delicate balance between you know, this is a business, this is how we measure your performance and your role. This is what you're responsible for. And as appropriate. You know, we care about what's going on with you at home. And, you know, we want to support things that you're interested in, you know, whatever. And it's about kind of finding a balance between leaning one way or the other too much.

Yeah, we've always seen this as, like an just it's nice to have a culture that understands that it a pendulum and we're gonna swing a little too far one way, and then we're gonna come back. And so we find, I feel like it's almost I don't know what the cycle is whether it's quarterly or every four months or something, but it seems like we're constantly like, okay, we actually have to measure a little bit more. And it's not because you're bad. But like, hey, like, I cannot lose money every month, or we will cease to exist, we will no longer help anyone, and no one will have a job. And so, you know, that's, that's an interesting challenge. Is there any, what do you all have? Do you have any tips for people, especially on the structure piece? Or do you have any recommendations, we'll go both ways, kind of creating psychological safety in the workplace, any books, podcasts, you would recommend? And then the structure like, you are not you did not get an MBA, you went and got a degree in counseling. And so, you know, what, what has been super useful for you to kind of build some of that business sense to?

That's a great question, I think I've got a long way to go. In terms of being a good businessman, I've certainly learned a lot. But, you know, we implemented the traction EOS system, entrepreneurial operating system, which I think is a very approachable, kind of simple framework for how to run most types of business, like smaller businesses, especially. And, you know, I don't, not to, you know, not to patronize my staff here or anything, but like, just like our clients, like structure staff like structure to, you know, like they like. So part of the EOS system is like, everyone has something measurable, that they're responsible for every single week, we're going to track it, if you don't meet your you're measurable for that week, you're not in trouble, but we're going to help you get there and everyone sees everyone else's. So an appropriate amount of transparency. I think I, I felt like I needed to hide the challenges from the staff, but like, they probably already know about them. Like, if we're not if half the beds are empty, like they noticed. So we might as well be on the same same page about what we need to do to get out of you know, those situations. Um, so yeah, I found that to be helpful

to you, or now I just wanted I only asked him now that I'm not asking for a shout out, you might have heard it from a lot of other people, but it is, it's like my number one recommendation for someone who really cares about something, but maybe doesn't have business experience. I mean, it was transformative for us. So we're big evangelists for it, but for traction. Yeah, 100%

you definitely mentioned it, and multiple people mentioned it along the way. But I like shucked it off for a long time. So I took me reading it like three times before it really clicked. And honestly, like, it's kind of direct, you know, it's like, you know, there's like a tool called the people analyzer, which is basically like scoring a human being on these parameters that you set for them. So it feels kind of like Ouch. So anyways, it took me a while to come around to realizing how that's actually a more, you know, loving approach to guiding your staff is like, they should know what they're responsible for, um, and holding them accountable. So anyways, Yes, you did recommend a lot of people.

I just, I really think that show many organizations would be better. Like, it's not, you read it? And it's kind of like, yeah, like, we kind of know this. But then to go through the process of like implementing it and keeping up with it. How long have you been running on us? When did you go through that?

We first started working on at the beginning of the project, but only this year? 2021? Have I been like, we're doing this? Yeah. And we brought on new clinical director recently. So that was a good opportunity to kind of revisit it. So I would really only give us credit for this year.

Yeah. Well, it's I mean, for us, I think we're at two years. And it just makes it also makes conversations easier. When you're all on the exact same page about the numbers, you know, everything out and makes. It is a safer environment. I mean, there's structure, but that's not a bad thing like you hit on. I do have one question on your structure. I always am curious how other people structure you don't, you can either walk me through your day or your week. But I think one of the challenges when you're, you know, in a leadership role, especially kind of at the top of an org chart, is how do you provide structure for yourself. So What do you have? What thoughts do you have on that?

Well, something that I make up about you is that you're way further along with how you structure your time and prioritize. I feel like I'm very like subject to whatever I might get sucked into that particular day. So I'm working on delegating out of some of the things that are still on my plate, and I'll make progress with it, and then I'll slip back into it. But, you know, when you read about good business leaders, they generally are like very disciplined about prioritizing their time. So that's a goal for me. But I, you know, where I'm sitting right now is like a, an office that I have that's near my house, that's kind of like a co working space. And so I use this for time that I need to be not distracted and working on projects. And then I go down to the office at alpha one at probably two to three times a week, unless we're got stuff going on. And then it's every day. I do you know, one on ones with direct reports, relatively consistently, not as well as I'd like to. Um, so, you know, I have kind of a, what I'm working towards, which would be quite a bit of structure in my week, and what I'm currently doing, which is not that structured, so I'm dancing around the question, but most days, it's like, lots of scheduled calls. And then I'm trying to work my kind of creative project stuff in later. And ideally, I would flip those around where I'm doing my creative work first, and then, you know, being a little bit more disciplined about what types of calls and, and whatever do things like this that I actually want to do that I schedule into?

Well, I appreciate you taking the time. I know how busy how busy you are. But what about just speak to a little more on that structure, obviously, like, you know, kind of keeping recovery at the front of things, your family at the front of things, your physical health, mental health, tell me some of the other, you know, may not be every day you're doing something, but how do you because I know we've talked about this offline. So you know, how do you think about all that, because as as someone who wants to have a family soon, I am like, holy crap, like, I just got my structure, it kind of works. That's gonna get blown up. I know it. But how do you kind of view view that infinite game of you know, flourishing yourself? How do you stay physically, mentally, spiritually fit.

You know, that is also kind of an evolving process. I mean, there's things like meditation that I want to, like, always be a part of my self care routine. And I try to, you know, wake up and knock that out. And, you know, I do some basic prayer and some things to like, start my day off. My recovery program has evolved to where, you know, I go to a 12 step meeting once a month, rather than once a day. And then I've, you know, kind of worked in like, the recovery conversations I have for my own sobriety, like that's just integrated into my life is just on autopilot. And then I would say, with exercise, I have been pretty consistent. Like most people would probably say, I exercise a lot to me, it's not as consistent as I'd like it to be. But most of the time I'm, I like Endurance Sports trail running. So you all have something that I'm training for making sure I'm getting out in nature. I mean, I know most people tend to be a little averse to endurance sports. But if I had to say, something completely unrelated to education and career that's been super important for my life, it would be endurance sports, like running really long ways. Like you will just find out what you're capable of. And it's so therapeutic. And so I try to be consistent with that. I do therapy, you know, I don't always do it. But right now, right now, that's a weekly thing. And when I don't find benefit, I'll take a break for six months and then come back to it. And then when it comes to family, I would love to be much more like intentional because, you know, that feels like we're always trying to do our weekly date night. Like it's never scheduled. It's always we need to get back to that. And then with the kids, you know, that is also like, just tell me where I need to be I'll be there I'll pick them you know, I like I'm terrible at remembering it. Fortunately, my wife is like super on top of it. So I show up wearing To be up definitely present, but not not in an organized way whatsoever.

Yeah, I can't imagine it's always a moving target. And is there anything? What else? Is there anything I didn't cover that you want to highlight? before? Before we kind of wrap up because I want to respect your time, I've already taken a lot.

I'm just doing great. I mean, I, I'm curious, your answer to the same question about how you structure your time, and how you found success, because you don't make it seem like greenhills running itself are easy, but you do seem like you've been able to kind of step back and start working on some other side projects and different things. So that's again, mine, I'm curious how you've done that.

Um, I mean, I think first and foremost, it's, you know, it's surrounding yourself. Like the only way I've stepped back from daily operations being involved in everything was that there, I was able to find people who are better at it than me, and, and have enough conversations with them, where they, they basically told me to screw off like they've got this handled, go tackle a problem they're not comfortable with. So that's one of them. And then I think, like, what you and I share is just that extreme curiosity. And I think especially around leadership, and you know, Jim Collins, newer book, b 2.0, really talks about this idea that you have to keep evolving, that once you get good at something, if you're going to keep growing, you have to become a different type of leader. So I'm, I'm always trying to think like, what, what type of leader does your organization need right now, right, like we talked about going from kind of focusing on psychological safety to, hey, let's have some metrics, everything else. I think that that is is always an evolving process. But I'll say kind of, to echo some of the sentiments that you had and speak specifically about structure. But I believe that taking care of your mental health as a leader is the most important thing. And because when you don't, it wears on everyone in the organization. And so you've got to figure out as a leader, what that means to you. And like you said, it can evolve, right? So, you know, I'm very disciplined about waking up meditating, usually I get a yoga practice in midday, I just started getting into running, I probably saw pictures of you on Facebook, and the guy looks cool, maybe I'll start running. And then I hurt myself. And you know, and even having something like that can really throw me into a tailspin, right? Like I had this nice little running routine, I figured out my days, I had my week structured, and then I hurt my calf, and then back early and hurt it again. And then I'm just frustrated, right, and then I have to be more intentional about how I'm structuring that time. But as far as my weeks go, I will say, I have a few kind of set meetings, and I meet with all of my direct reports, which I've kept to a very small number. And everyone's got a different kind of flavor for that. Right now I'm at four, I always think like, between three and six is the sweet spot, I think over six, and it gets really, really difficult. So I try and spend an hour with each direct report kind of one on one each week, and then kind of one leadership meeting. And then like Wednesday, so we're recording this on a Wednesday, this is my content day. And it's not just like, Oh, I'm gonna produce podcasts and put things on Instagram. But also like, that's my one day for just projects like this is when I am behind my computer, the only thing I'm putting on my schedule is, you know, either interviews or talking to people about presentations that I need to give or that I need to build. And so it's a nice way, just that one change, like blocking off Wednesday changed my life. And that was just a month or two ago. And I kind of pick that one up from jack Dorsey who's you know, the CEO of two companies, some people would say, That's not a good idea. But he blocks off each day, and it kind of has a theme for the day. And so I've tried to get more intentional around that. And then, like you said, I mean it, you know, therapy, meditation, prayer, trying to be very deliberate about spending time with my wife. I'm actually flying up, she's got a conference tomorrow that she's presenting at, and it's actually a con conference on mentorship, which is really cool. And it's tough for us to spend enough time together like I was, I was working until 10 last night so we're gonna go take the weekend, you know together and that's about it. I mean, and it's always moving like you said, and but finding those things like I think your your exercise routine can change your meditation prayer, what you know, however, you kind of have spiritual maintenance can change over time. But if you're neglecting them, you just need to be aware that if you're neglecting them or not, so

yeah, something about like, once you identify those like necessary blocks, it's always Like you're either doing them or you're trying to get back to doing it. And I just you don't escape it. Yeah, so. And with running, like, the fact that the whole getting injured thing I didn't mention that specifically. But that's such a huge part of the experiences like, it's so freakin frustrating trying to become a runner and no matter what you're like gonna deal with these, like seemingly benign little injuries that keep you from being able to do it and it's so annoying, and it's a great metaphor to that, like, forces you to slow down. So I have one more question. Ah, yeah, it sounds like an airport, because I've been been asking this for a while. Um, do you? Do you ever get compared to Tim Ferriss? And if so, how do you feel about this comparison?

Hold on, wait, wait, is this are you I don't know if you're pulling this from somewhere else? Because this is it's a kind of a running joke. I think it is. People.

I figured it had to be, but I've never heard it brought up

right here. I'm gonna let me let me now I've got the bald head and like the flow. I used to hate that comparison. And I hated the comparison. Because I was jealous of who he was. And then when I, I just, I was like, this guy's got the coolest thing. It's not that cool. I could do it better. I don't know. Like, for some reason, I was like this guy. You know, it's all. So now I think he's got an incredibly cool platform. I would love to be compared to him. I think he's smarter, better looking at everything. But I do get that comparison sometimes. And I hope and I've learned to grow that, you know, I just actually kind of want to be like him. I kind of want to have these conversations like we had. And like, I've learned so much today. I mean, you like you hit me with 10 points that I think I already knew. But like, I if I could have had this podcast, if I could have listened to this four years ago, you would have saved me so many headaches. So I hope we do that for someone else.

Absolutely. Well, I I see you as very similar to Tim Ferriss so that the persona that you're putting off is doing well to make people see you that way. So yeah, that's cool. why I've enjoyed it as well. And it's not dissimilar from what we would be talking about not on a podcast. Exactly,

exactly. What will I see you in person and in a few weeks. Are we going to Utah or not anymore? Yes. Now,

I won't be there. But I'm sure I'll find a reason to come visit soon.

All right. Well, Nico, thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time and some real insights. I think I'm going to listen to this one more than anyone else. So thanks a lot for coming on the business of human flourishing and we'll talk soon thanks.