Unlocking True Entrepreneurial Freedom without Burning Out | Ep. 069

In this episode of the Mind Hack Podcast, host Cody McLain interviews Rob Dube, co-author of "Shine: How Looking Inward Is the Key to Unlocking True Entrepreneurial Freedom." Rob shares deep insights on integrating mindfulness into leadership and balancing personal well-being with professional success. Drawing from over 30 years of experience, he discusses common entrepreneurial struggles like burnout and internal conflict despite external success. Rob highlights the importance of understanding one's 'inner story' and leading from the heart, introducing his 10 disciplines that promote inner peace, energy, and impact. The conversation explores fear-based decision-making, true self-awareness, and creating a business culture that prioritizes employee well-being. Cody and Rob also examine the pitfalls of hustle culture and the importance of being present with oneself and others. The episode wraps up with practical advice on living a fulfilled life by adhering to core values. Listeners are encouraged to read Rob's book and visit his website for further resources.

About this Guest:
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Leading with Genuine Care podcast
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Shine: How Looking Inward Is the Key to Unlocking True Entrepreneurial Freedom by Rob Dube & Gino Wickman
Other books here

People & Other Mentions:

Gino Wickman
Michael A. Freeman,M.D.
Driven: Understanding and Harnessing the Genetic Gifts Shared by Entrepreneurs, Navy SEALs, Pro Athletes, and Maybe YOU by Dr. Doug Brackman
Andrew Huberman
The Second Mountain by David Brooks
Small Giants Community
Tugboat Institute
Conscious Capitalism
Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl

Transcript

Rob: 0:00

go explore and find your passion because I want you to be happy. I don't need you to be at our company.. To do what you're so great at doing, but to be miserable. don't want that for that person. I want them to live a happy life. Welcome to the Mind Hack Podcast, where we explore the psychology of self-improvement and mindset to help you live a happier and more fulfilled life. I'm your host Cody McLain, and today we're talking with Rob Dube co-author of the newly published book, Shine. How Looking Inward is the key to unlocking true entrepreneurial freedom? Rob brings a wealth of experience as a seasoned entrepreneur and a steadfast advocate for integrating mindfulness into leadership. Rob is also the visionary behind the 10 Disciplines group. A coaching program for entrepreneurs to help them find inner peace without sacrificing their ambition. An avid meditator and proponent of mindful leadership. For over 30 years, Rob has shared his insights on stages from TEDx talks to conferences hosted by Ford, PayPal, and EOS. Rob is also the host of the Leading with Genuine Care podcast, where he talks with mindful leaders on how to create an extraordinary culture that has a big impact on the lives of our team, customers, and the world. In today's episode, we delve into how leaders can find balance between personal wellbeing and professional success. We'll explore the transformative strategies from his book Shine that empowers entrepreneurs to not just find success on the outside, but to find peace on the inside. Rob, welcome to the podcast. Cody, I am humbled and honored to be with you today. Thank you for having me.

CODY: 2:02

The pleasure is all mine. As I was mentioning earlier when I started to read your book, I felt like you were speaking to me as I'm somebody who's had a fair amount of success in having businesses. But simultaneously what you talk about in your book is a lot of entrepreneurs have this outward success that they, either have the money or the fame and they're doing really well, but internally, they're often really struggling. And that's definitely something I identify as somebody who's felt, basically I've felt per perpetual burnout is the only way I can describe it, that working as I become more successful is harder. Than it was when I wasn't as successful. I would love for you to share some insights as to what was the pretense that allowed you to even write this book in the first place. did you see in the world of entrepreneurship that led you down this path?

Rob: 2:54

Well, very similar things that you've been experiencing. I've been around entrepreneurs my whole adult life, and I've seen what we put ourselves through and I was curious what that was all about. My co-author and I, Gino Wickman would talk about this for 20 years. We would get together at a local coffee shop and spend half a day or a full day just asking these questions, about what this whole thing is all about and why we put ourselves through it. And it goes very deep. And there are many answers and many different answers for different people, but there does seem to be some common theme around escaping. and putting everything into our work. So maybe consciously or subconsciously, we don't spend time looking inward and to understand what's really going on inside of us.

CODY: 3:50

what's your story? What was your entrepreneurial story that allowed you to decide to go down this path of actually focusing on mindfulness and combining that with running a company or being a leader?

Rob: 4:02

Yeah. So, when I was 14 years old, I started selling blow pop lollipops outta my locker with my best friend Joel. We would buy them from a, for a nickel and resell them for a quarter. the two of us had all kinds of entrepreneurial businesses in high school and college, and when we graduated college, we started a business. Outta the basement of his childhood home. We still own it today, although we don't run it at that time. I'd also gotten married, so I'd gotten married in my early twenties and my wife and I started having kids. I had my first child when I was 25, and right around that time I noticed that something didn't seem right. I felt outta sorts. I was always anxious, I was always stressed and I could tell I just wasn't a very good person in general. Wasn't a good husband. I wasn't about to be a good father and wasn't the greatest business partner with my best friend Joel. And I was sharing how I was feeling with him or about that with him, and he suggested that I see a therapist, which 30 years ago wasn't. Quite the same as it is nowadays. Thank goodness. It's very common nowadays. And that began, an inner journey for me to better understand what had happened in my life and why I was showing up in the ways that I was. So, when you did the introduction, which was very kind, and I share a little bit here, that's my outer story. it's what you know most of us talk about when we're, going about our days and people say, who are you? Tell me a little bit about yourself. What we usually don't do is tell our inner story. and that's usually quite private. and we actually, in our programs, we encourage people to start sharing their inner story. We've gotta be honest, and not have secrets. Now you don't have to share it with the world like I am and like my co-author Gina Wickman is doing. we're doing that to hopefully inspire others to share it with somebody, somebody close with that to them. and I'll share it now. I'll share my inner story. And I always like to say that, whenever I do this, and I've done it thousands of times now I get a funny feeling in my chest. And I even get a shaky voice sometimes because it's still hard to this day. some of the things that, that happened as I was growing up, but around the, age eight, I. I began, from what I can remember, I began to, experience a great deal of trauma and abuse, sexual, physical, mental abuse. What I would do is to get away from it, I would go outside and throw the ball or hit a ball against a wall in my childhood home. So I was really taking a solace in that and escaping from everything that was going on. I had imaginary friends that I would play with. I was a short kid and in ninth grade when I went into high school, I was four foot eight. So I was constantly bullied. I was the shortest kid at school. I had a ton of health issues. I was taking medication that was leaving me jittery, literally shaky and, uneasy all the time. one of the health issues I had was asthma. And when I was 14. I was having a massive asthma attack and I was dying and no one was around to help me. And at that time I was ready to let go. Actually, I, in some way, I was just ready to say, take me, I'm kind of good. I'm done with this. which is really crazy to say now I'm 54 now. and I enjoy and, appreciate life so much. So it's really amazing to think back at that time. It seems like a different person and it really was. as I went into my adult years, and went into therapy, I was diagnosed with OCD, I was depressed. I was never present, with the people I was around. I was just constantly anxious and so, You know, as I mentioned, thankfully something in my intuition said this isn't right. and began that journey, to go inside and, to fast forward now as those many years, later to, you know, have really worked on how I can find inner peace and build that business, by the way, as I was doing, and, be as good of a father and husband and, friend, family member, all those things, good person in society, it really inspired Gino and I to write the book Shine.

CODY: 8:42

that's amazing. I identify so much with that. in your book you also mentioned conscious leadership and organization that attempts to help the executives to lead the organizations and treat people, in more respectful way. And I think we also need, conscious, inner work or the conscious leader in the way that we need to respect and be present with what are we feeling in the moment? Because it's so easy to just reflect on what society tells us. we need to be successful. we need to work hard, grind, hustle culture, and then you end up being successful. And in my case, it's like the more successful I became, the more depressed that I became. And I also identify with, childhood trauma, with being bullied in school, I also have asthma. And so I was in the hospital many times as a kid. so it seems, I think that there's also this other perspective that if you're somebody who, doesn't fit in well with school or has trauma, I think perhaps, I'm not sure if there's any studies, but I would almost be willing to bet that if you have those things, you are more likely to be an entrepreneur when you grow up.

Rob: 9:55

Yeah, I think you're right. because what we wanna do as an entrepreneur, part of, I believe what we're after is control. We didn't have it when we were growing up, many of us. and we think that venturing out on our own to do something, meaningful. And that can mean a lot of things. It doesn't mean I'm out to change the world, or a person is out to change the world. They might just be selling widgets, but they're excited and passionate about their widgets and they believe by paving their own path that they will find something they're looking for. whatever that is, which usually they're not sure. Oftentimes it's recognition, it's people saying. You are something, you are important, you did something. Sometimes it's money, but actually it's usually what I was saying a moment ago because we weren't getting that so much growing up. So we're trying to control things. We believe we, we can create our own destiny, which we can't. We're in control of nothing. That's the truth of it. But that's what we believe as entrepreneurs. And having that, feedback is important to us. that we are something special, in this world. And, and business and entrepreneurship is a way that we think we're gonna get that. But as you said with your businesses, it doesn't get you that, you can speak to your experiences from one to the next to the next. in your case it sounds like it became darker, not lighter.

CODY: 11:30

Yeah. so I think most of my life I was working to build the business and it was motivated initially by the desire to prove the others, to prove to others that I could be successful too. And I wanted to prove myself to others because like you, I was bullied and I didn't fit in well with kids. And so I think there's always like that small population of kids who just don't fit in, who are weird. Are bullied, I think they're more likely to be way more successful later in life than any of the other classmates that, that's personally, at least my experience. And I think then work became a means to survive of, you know, my parents died when I was young, and so I didn't have any other option. It was, either it was work hard. Or I don't know what else. I even dropped outta high school, so it seemed like I had everything against me. And also when your back is against the wall, you know, one of the biggest questions that I get from people is how were you successful? And my answer is, just like the Spanish conquistador who landed in South America and burnt all his ships, I was backed into a corner. I had no other option other than to go in one direction. And that's not advice people like to hear, but that's my experience. I would not have worked as hard and pursued the success that I've obtained without having my back against the wall.

Rob: 12:49

Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting because, we hope, and I know a lot of young entrepreneurs listen to this podcast and a lot of young people and, our hope is that one can realize that Maybe we don't have to look at it in those terms. and please feel free to, push back on what I'm saying. the back against the wall, it's like, it's a fight. It's like survival, right? And that's drive. There's a drive that comes with that. And you have a drive Cody inherent in you, as many entrepreneurs just do. It's natural. And we talk about that. The first discovery that we talk about in our book is, I am driven. You are driven. So, we get this, sometimes it's a chip on our shoulders. Sometimes there's outside forces that are driving us to show others that, that we can be successful. There's a survival aspect to it. But we would contend you don't have to, doesn't need to be that way. The drive can still be there without that edge. And it can actually come with inner peace and it's all about reframing how you look at things. And I'll pause there, but then I can get a little bit more deeper into it if you want me to. But I wanna make sure you're tracking and if there are any questions you want to ask about that or if challenges.

CODY: 14:12

Yeah. well, mentioned a study in your book from 2015 by Michael Freeman, who showed that there is a mental health issue amongst entrepreneurs as he found like 49% of entrepreneurs had dealt with some kind of mental health challenge. And as he describes in the study that people who are on the energetic, motivated, and creative side are both more likely to be an entrepreneur, but also more likely to have strong emotional states. And I think that speaks to the challenges that a lot of entrepreneurs face. And you mentioned these discoveries, and I know that that is at the beginning of the book before you go into the 10 disciplines. So I would love for you to explain what are these discoveries? what are the, three and, what do they mean individually?

Rob: 14:57

so first to the study, which I'm so glad you referenced that, I appreciate that because, yes, 49% have that and 51% don't, you know, so some people they don't have that, but there's still things to look at, from the inside and especially when you go into entrepreneurship. so I want, you know, for the audience, please keep that in mind, because these things are still important. Even if you're not in that 49%. so the first thing is that you are driven and, there's a small percentage of the population that is, and thank goodness by the way, 'cause if, could you imagine everybody in the world, there's something a little over 8 billion human beings, imagine, 50 or 80% or a hundred percent of them being driven, it'd be a crazy place. So basically speaking, there's around 10% of the population is set to be driven in all sorts of modalities, you know, professions and all these kinds of things. 4% are entrepreneurial. Okay? So 4% of 8 billion. You're in a very small category. So no know that. Next thing to know is that it's a blessing. To be driven, but it's also a curse. And there's some good stuff that comes along with this and some bad stuff. and we have to accept it and we have to embrace it. And we most importantly have to manage it. We have to manage it. So the blessing part of it is we're born with this superhuman stamina, this strength, this resilience that we have. And we are the creators of most things on this planet. The driven entrepreneur, the things that we use, the widgets, you know, that's where it comes from. So it's a blessing, but the curse is we do a lot of damage to ourselves and the other people around us because we have a certain intensity that they don't have. We don't understand it. We don't understand why they don't have that. We don't get it. there's a great book, when you're finished with ours, we encourage you pick up a book called Driven by Dr. Doug Brackman. He writes in the book, and I'm gonna read this 'cause I want to get it wrong, it's actually genetics. So he did some studies on this and there's a D two, D four gene that has a flaw in it. The receptors don't fire, so we never fully feel rewarded or enough. Your genetic difference can lead you to feel there is something wrong with you and the associated shame can create a hellish existence. The driven are at risk for addictions. They believe will provide relief. They're innately pulled toward the success they believe will leave them feeling rewarded. Finally, the driven, are different. They're wired to feel they're never enough and it's never enough, and they're always looking for something better. So maybe some of the driven entrepreneurs listening to this will relate. And then we found, we were having a conversation with a friend of ours, Justin Breen, who works with entrepreneurs. And he shared with us that he had yet to meet an entrepreneur who hasn't experienced one of the following bankruptcy or potential bankruptcy, heightened levels of anxiety, depression, or traumatic experiences as a child or young adult. And as we were discussing this, Gino and I threw in addiction. And addiction is doing something compulsively in excess that usually is not good for you. Like work, food, porn, drugs, alcohol, gambling, tv, social media, gaming, shopping, just to name a few. And so these are ways we numb ourselves. And work is one of the key ones that we, don't pay attention to because we're heralded for how hard we work. I think you mentioned Hu hustle culture that you know earlier, people are impressed with how hard we work and how successful we're becoming, and it's an escape for us. It truly is. so that's discovery number one. I am driven and it's important to be aware of it and to manage it most importantly. So I'll pause there and if there's anything you wanna ask or question about that please do, or I'll move on to the second discovery.

CODY: 19:27

would just add that I remember there was a recent episode by Huberman, it might be episode, number 55 in which he talks about stress and fear. And what resonated with me is that fear is amongst one of the most powerful motivators that we can have, and it allows us to, to do amazing things. But simultaneously, it is probably one of the worst in terms of our physical and emotional health. And that it is possible while it seems that we gravitate towards fear, like the fear of running outta money, the fear of what if I'm not successful, the fear of supporting my family. the fear of looking ridiculous if I fail and those can allow us to make some monumental achievements. It also really dampens our own emotional and physical health. And so while it is easy to default to that fear response, it is possible to find that that positive, that that ability, that we're being pulled towards the future. And I feel like that's definitely where I am at right now. I'm trying to go from surviving to thriving as one would say. And there was a book that I feel like I probably mentioned every other episode is called The Second Mountain by David Brooks, who really describes this exact same scenario with somebody who becomes successful. As get to that first mountain and you just feel empty and then you spend the rest of your life trying to get to the second mountain, which is having an impact, which is, being a part of a community. and that's really truly where you can find that deep sense of satisfaction because otherwise, as you say, it seems that, whether it's genetic or, or what have you, we can be so easily on this rollercoaster ride of it's never enough. And that's a default human state as far as I'm concerned, across, fields and industries and professions, is that if you get a million dollars, well then you need to get $10 million. And if you get, say, 5,000 views on a video, now you need to get 15,000 views on a video or you're a failure. And that seems to be a hundred percent across the board, expression. And it can be really difficult to pull back from that to not associate ourselves, our ego from, what our current success is.

Rob: 21:41

You're so thoughtful, Cody, and you evoke so many things for me in your remarks. So I wanna start with this idea about the mountains because we would contend there is no mountain. There just isn't. You're on a path and so there's no mountain to climb and there's no second mountain to climb. with all due respect. I haven't read the book. It sounds amazing, by the way. but, that's the mindset that we hope that many will get into, because we damage ourself climbing that mountain. That's where a lot of the, you know, you, referenced Huber Man's, podcast, on that. I had, I'd seen it, but I didn't listen to it. and the fear comes with anxiety., it comes along with so much that , if you believe in the mind-body connection, which if you're listening to Huberman, you do, you're damaging yourself and you don't even realize it. So wherever it is that you're trying to get to. And why it's never enough, which I always like to ask people they get to a certain plateau, so to speak, and they're ready for the next thing and they say, I can't, it's never enough. I always like to say, what is that all about? Question mark. Have you ever paused to think about what that is about? Why is that? I need you to go like 3, 4, 5 layers deep on that because , you might think it's about providing for your family, but Cody, you and I know you can provide for a family on much less than a million or 10 million or 20 or a hundred million or et cetera. Keep going. You know, you, you can do that. It'd be a different lifestyle, but you could do it and, by the way, I'm all about. being successful and having wealth. I'm not saying don't do that. Please go do that. I just want you to do it with peace. I don't want you to, damage yourself mentally and physically in the meantime. so, okay, I'm gonna pause there and I'm gonna go to discovery number two, which are decisions are made out of love or fear, and I'm glad you brought up fear with your reference to, Andrew Huberman. love is from our heart. Fear from our ego. decisions aren't all we're referencing here, but it's the way we say it. It's emotions, it's feelings, it's thoughts. So it's tuning into what's happening with you right now. am I feeling, let's use a feeling. Am I feeling anxious? Why am I feeling anxious? Is that feeling coming from something I'm fearing? Is my ego in play right now? The ego that you want to, I mean, ego has good and bad things, I guess you could say. It has a kind of continuum, so it's not all bad, but you have to know what part of your ego is showing up at this moment and why you're feeling, why you're feeling. And once you understand that you have that awareness, then you can use different ways, which we could talk about different ways to bring yourself to the present moment, understand the feeling. And understand how to shift that feeling so you bring it from dark to light is a way to say it, which brings some level of peace, inner peace inside. And that's a continual practice that we go through, on a daily basis. Many, many, many, many, many times throughout our days. But the more we, do this and we have awareness around it, it becomes more common. And, and I guess for a lack of a better way of saying it, easier because we want to come from a place of love and in business, this is, I think, important for especially a lot of young entrepreneurs. Many of our decisions are coming from fear. They're coming from our ego. Again, it could be things like. Wanting to have our business be a certain size because we think that's going to show the world something, and we're afraid to fail. So we put every ounce of our energy into it so other people can recognize us as successful. That's fear-based love-based. As we build our business from our heart, we don't care what other people think. We make decisions within our business that fuel our inside our true self. What really matters we're not being affected by societal expectations. sometimes those come from families Schools we went to, or circles we run in things of that nature. So maybe we have a situation where we're trying to expand our business and we notice a competitor is doing X, Y, or Z, but we're really focused on A, B, C, and we're really damn good at A, B, C, but we see competitor doing X, Y, Z, and all of a sudden we say, oh my God, we gotta start doing X, Y, Z in addition to A, B, C, which is gonna take away focus and how great we are at A, B, C. But competitors doing it, and I don't wanna lose ground, I'm afraid. I'm afraid we're gonna lose ground. I gotta jump on that bandwagon and get into that sector or that product line or whatever it is you're doing. Also, that's a fear-based decision. How about people? You know, sometimes we have people in our organizations, . Where they're really good at something, but they are not a cultural fit. But we don't wanna rock the boat because they're good at what they're doing. Maybe they're a great salesperson, by the way. That's scary when you have a great salesperson who does not fit your culture to be able to come from love on that culture's, number one, to, to let that person go, that's scary. That's fear when you hold onto them and make excuses why. That's fear-based decision making in business.

CODY: 28:16

Yeah, I loved your question on this in the book where you asked the reader if you knew your significant other, your best friend or top employee would be better off without you, would you let them go? Could you take your hooks out of them? If you answer no, you are attached and you're hanging onto them, you are making a fear-based decision. And that's not good for them. It's not good for you. And that's operating from a place of fear.

Rob: 28:42

Yeah, yeah. Take it outside of business. Like, thank you for reading that. You know? boy, it's tough when you have, somebody close to you in your life, that you're attached to, and, you know, could you do that? could you let them go? If that's what's best for them? Might not feel best for you, but is that what's best for them? That's a very, very hard and deep question. But yes, we have our hooks and people, and they have their hooks in us. Some people too. That's an important thing to recognize.

CODY: 29:15

I think it's, a harder question to ask. How can we cultivate that sense of will? Because there's so often, I mean, whether I make a decision and I know others, you end up being in this, situation where you either know somebody's not right, or you know what the right thing is that you should do, but then you just don't want to do it. You don't want to go drive two hours to, your friend's wedding. And, you don't want to let go of, a person that might be your next partner. And yet, deep down inside, you know, it's not gonna work out, but you're too afraid to break that connection. And I've definitely been there and then I end up. Making a decision by not making a decision, and then things just kind of linger and then 99% of the time it doesn't work out. But I was still afraid to make that decision to let them go. How do you cult, I know this is a difficult question to ask, but how do you cultivate that? Because I think it's easy to know what the right decision is, but it's so much more difficult to act on it.

Rob: 30:16

Yeah. So, you know, the way we write about it in the book is, the first thing under discovery two decisions are made out of love or fear is this recognition that your true self is in there. Your true self is in there. And what I wanna share with the audience and with you is what that means, what your true self means. And I think by understanding that your audience will have a better idea of what I'm talking about. So this is the real you. It's the most authentic version of who you are. It's unshaped by societal expectations, professional roles, or social masks. It's the core identity that remains constant beneath the various hats that you wear in different areas of your life. And it's typically buried behind your ego, your personality, and the suit of armor that you have developed over your lifetime due to pain, trauma, and conditioning. And freeing your true self allows you to be authentic, free spirited, liberated, unconstrained, unbounded, unapologetic. It allows you to realize your full potential, live in alignment with your values, your passions, your beliefs and desires rather than conforming to societal norms or external expectations, and bringing the best version of yourself to everything in your life. And your true self wants to be free, and it can be free. When you are free and you are fully your true self, you begin to experience inner peace. Like I've been mentioning, you have some bliss, this feeling of bliss, this feeling of, love. it's this opportunity. This opportunity is to remove everything that is preventing you from being your true self. This allows for you to be more creative, intuitive, impactful, and in flow. And this is how you'll shine more brightly. So with that description, this understanding that that is in you inherently, it's there. So your true self is in there. And the next thing that we talk about is. That you are pure energy. And for some people that's really easy thing to understand. For others, it's kind of confusing. So wherever you are on that continuum, just stick with me. I'm gonna do an oversimplification of it, which is we as people are made up of energy, we're made up of atoms and protons and cells and they're constantly moving around in us. It's energy that's, moving within us. I always like to say, have you ever met somebody, had a conversation with them and when you're done and they walk away, you think to yourself, boy, that person had a really great energy. Or you might say that person had a weird energy. That's actually an actual energy you are picking up on. Not physical energy, not excitement. It's a vibe is another way of saying it's an energy that they're exuding. So we are pure energy and this energy can get blocked. Okay? So it's blocked in ways that have to do with things in circumstances and challenges and all kinds of things that have happened to us in our life at some point. And they aren't, always traumatic things, they're just things. And sometimes that energy gets blocked and that causes us to make decisions from fear. If we can learn to be aware that I'm blocked right now, I'm stuck. Some people say I'm stuck. You know, some people say, I, I can't get clear. If you can become aware of that. You can begin to work on unstuck yourself, unblocking yourself. You can do this by slowing down, by bringing your attention to the present moment, bringing your attention to your body, noticing sensations in your body as you think about this decision or this feeling, or this emotion, or this thought that you're having and noticing in your body what you're feeling. Some people feel tense in their shoulders. Some people feel tightness in their chest. Some people feel like a something in their gut. And if you could breathe into those areas of your body until it sort of dissipates, goes away, you're clearing this block. And when you clear that block, you think more clearly. And you can begin to come from a place of love, from your heart, from your inside. So it's a way of helping us gain clarity so we can make our decisions from love and not fear.

CODY: 35:14

Do you think that it's possible to lead with love and not fear from somebody who hasn't experienced that? Let, me rephrase that. So I look at it from this perspective of, you see all these videos of older people that end up telling you what their regrets are. Like I, I wish I had spent more time with friends and family. wish I didn't work as much, but yet they aren't able to have the gratitude and the life that they have unless they had worked as hard as they did. So it's almost kind of a conundrum in, some respects, and it's also this concept of like, say helicopter parenting. Like you don't want to overprotect your child because the best way to learn from your mistakes is to make them. And I just wonder whether it's really possible to help teach people don't lead from this fear mentality. have you ever met anybody who only leads from like a love mentality that's an entrepreneurship? Or is that just, very rare and, not something that's very common?

Rob: 36:21

There are organizations out there, Such as the Small Giants community and the Tugboat Institute. Conscious Capitalism is another one. And these are areas where leaders and entrepreneurs are working on this. and as always, you have such wise comments and questions and evoke many thoughts for me. So I wanna first start with this idea of this older person who says these regrets and so on and so forth, but their hard work got them to where they are today did I understand that part? Correct?

CODY: 36:53

Yeah, I think some ways you can have regret over some actions of your past, but simultaneously it was those actions that allowed you to have the level of happiness that you might have in that moment, if that makes sense.

Rob: 37:10

Yeah. Well, I don't know. And neither does the person know. If they had come from a place of love, how their life would've turned out. We could never know.'cause you can't go back and you can't go do that. And so, when someone is saying, I, should have done this or I could have done that, but I'm happy today, or whatever. gives this sense that, that was all good. Which it is because we're on a journey, but we just don't know what, how things really would've turned out. and I'll speak to, something that became very clear for me in 2006. You know, I had sold my business in 2004 and I bought it back in 2006 after 18 months. And was wiped out and I couldn't keep doing it the way I was doing it. And it didn't, it never felt right to me. It just never felt right. And I just was exhausted by it. And I said, if I'm gonna buy my business back, I'm not doing it that way anymore. I'm just not gonna be all worked up all the time afraid of everything. And I'm just gonna come from a place of love and I'm gonna listen to my, intuition. I'm gonna get quiet and take my time making decisions. I'm not gonna be quick anymore. And I am gonna care for these people like they're my family. And sometimes there's gonna be decisions that aren't gonna seem to make business sense, but I'm gonna make 'em anyway. And that's what I did from 2006 on I ran the company from my heart. Every decision I made was from my heart. I kept people on for longer because they were beautiful, beautiful people, and they needed that runway. And I would work with them to get them in places. we created something my company, image One. Called mindful transitions where we would encourage our team members to come to leadership, whoever was leading them, and say, I'm not fulfilled in my job. I wanna do something else. I don't know what it is, but I know it's not this and there's no place in the company for me to go to fulfill it. And so we would give them as much time as needed to figure it out. We would work with them. Where do you wanna be in 10 years? What are your passions? Go investigate, take time, we'll pay you. Go take time and figure some things out. We'll open up our networks to you. We'll allow you to go explore and find your passion because I want you to be happy. I don't need you to be at our company.. To do what you're so great at doing, but to be miserable. don't want that for that person. I want them to live a happy life. We also instituted something called a happy survey. It's like 80 questions that we ask our team members every year about the totality of their lives. For example, what are the people like that are closest to them? Are they happy people or unhappy people? When you have unhappy people around you, you are likely to be unhappy. So we help point these things out to our team, and then we create programs that help them make changes in their life so they can have a happier life. These are just examples of how you can lead from your heart. and course as a byproduct of it all, you're successful, but it doesn't mean you're always going to be successful. We write about in the book, in business and in life for that matter, but in business there's a 10 year business cycle. In general, you could go back in history every 10 years. A business is going to have two fantastic years. They're gonna have six really great years, and they're gonna have two years That could literally put them outta business. And your ability to be prepared for those two years, that could put you outta business. That says a lot about leading from your heart and a lot about how thoughtful you are in running your company. So too often entrepreneurs get really excited about the two years. That they're killing it and they think that's the default from that point forward. But for most businesses, that isn't the case. There's certainly businesses that I'm sure you or any others could challenge me on and they're out there, but most of them aren't. That's not the case. And I'll give you a great example of my company Image One, we provide managed print services. it's copiers servicing copiers and printers and things like that to companies that have employees that are in their offices printing. And when the pandemic came, that was really scary. And we had a person on our team who's a technician and we had a Zoom call.'cause obviously we couldn't go out all hands zoom call and we were just talking about what was happening. and The uncertainty of the future. And this technician asked if he could speak and he gave a 10 minute motivational speech that not one of our leadership team members could have ever given. It was so from the heart, we're gonna get through this together. All we have to do is band together. This whole thing. That's when you run a company from your heart, that's the kind of people that show up in your company. they come in and they are the ones that are inspiring, which is so much more beautiful than you or your leadership team having to do it. It's when the people are bought into everything that you're doing. And it feels so important to them because it is, they really care about it.'cause they know it's coming from the heart. Every decision's coming from the heart. So those are examples. And I stepped away from the company. We created succession plan. I don't run that company anymore. I started this business, the 10 disciplines. where we teach people all these concepts that you and I are talking about. and letting go, was something that came from my heart. I ran the company for 30 years and, letting go was the right thing for the future of the company. Many entrepreneurs have their whole identity wrapped up in everything they're doing, and they can't get away from it. You know, everybody knows them as the person who was the founder of the x, y, Z company and da da da and all that kinda stuff. But that isn't who you are. That's nothing about who you are. That's just something you do.

CODY: 43:46

Yeah, I still identify with that. I sold the company. It had over a thousand employees, and I'm still left wondering and guessing is that gonna be the most success I ever have? And having those doubts of feeling like I need to have something that's more successful than the last one, or also I'm not worthy. and I know that that's untrue. And yet those thoughts still exist and I know that the worst. Time for any founder or entrepreneur is after you sell your company. In many respects, it's like, how I like to compare is that the person who tells themselves that they're gonna work hard now, and then they're gonna retire and enjoy life later. And that's the person who ends up being a Walmart greeter. Not because they need the money, but because they retired and realized just how empty their life was and how attached they were to their job. And so they needed to find something to fill their time. And as an entrepreneur, you end up stuck in this rat race of wanting to build another business and really comparing yourself to the last success. And that is really, really tough to pull yourself out of that. And that's a place I know myself and many other entrepreneurs, share a perspective.

Rob: 45:00

Yeah. Build your next business from the heart. You know? there's nothing that you need to do. A person that needs to do to have something be more successful, because what does that even mean? what does it mean a thousand employees, by the way, congratulations. That's amazing. It really is. But you're still a person, obviously. You're just a regular person like anybody else. I mean, you put your pants on just like me, right? You know, you, you had some business success and that's wonderful, but it's not who you are. And if you're interested in business and you love it and it's fun and you start something because you think it's meaningful and you're excited about it and it's a widget that people need or use or whatever, and you have good talents there, and you can employ people great. But come from the heart in every one of your actions and make sure you do other things besides work. like having a life like we teach, knowing your 100%, and this is where you get really focused on your perfect number of hours per week and weeks per year that you're going to work. And deliver impact to this world. Deliver your value to this world. 80 to 120 hours. You have no other, nothing else is happening in your life, but work, condense it down. Find the right amount of time. Maybe it's 50 or 60, which is still a lot, but hey, that's fine. And then figure out what to do outside of that. Become curious about the world. You know, when, we teach this while we say, what will you do with this time that you now have back your most valuable asset, by the way, time. What will you do at peoples, they don't know what they'll do, so we give them a list. I think it's like 50 or hundred things you could do in life. just as an example to them, of all the things you could do, if you actually need to do anything, which you don't imagine just having nothing to do, is that okay? Yes, it is. It's okay to have nothing to do. How about just going with the flow, like, okay, I have nothing to do. Maybe I'll go for a walk right now and just wander and I won't know where I'm going or when I'm gonna come back and if I'll go, if I feel drawn to it, maybe I'll stop in that bakery and have a croissant and strike up a conversation with a stranger who might become some. channel of wisdom that you could have never imagined that gives you some new insight into this world. there's so much beauty out there and we lose track of it building our businesses. We lose ourselves, we lose ourselves in our businesses, and you don't have to, you can be just as successful building an empire without killing yourself.

CODY: 47:59

know at, at least for my company, I was, I didn't realize how lucky I was in some respect that I had started to build my own personal brand outside of the business before selling it, because it still gave me something for my ego to identify with that I have this, and I've met other founders who just go into a deep depression once they sell the business, not realizing just how much of their identity was wrapped up in that thing. And I always love to use this analogy of, I mean, it's basically your baby and now you're selling your baby I think our brain, devotes a significant amount of its own energy to that business. Like you're dreaming about the business. You have aspirations. you dream about the future, and those are all the exact same things that you do with your significant other, your spouse. And so when you're, when you get rid of it, even if you're getting money in return, there is still an emotional, emptying. There's still, a separation your brain has to make. And so as you seem to advocate is not only have, I think your main message in some regards is to have a huge amount of mindfulness to understand when you're making a decision, whether it's letting somebody go, whether it's, making a decision on the operations of the business should you give out a benefit or not. There's obviously certain decisions you have to make from a practical business perspective, but there's other decisions that you can make, like say, how much your salary is. I mean, do you need your salary to be 500K year? If you can get by on maybe less and that money can then go towards a bonus for the employees. That feels like that's a decision that would be from the heart. And so there's so many ways at which you can be a leader and not only be an entrepreneur that you can build a successful business. But I think the other component that you're saying is that you should be a leader who operates with love and by doing so, you're going to, gather up, you're going to collect benefits over time of other people respecting you, other people, being vulnerable with you, you connecting with others, because it's not just enough to be successful to make money, to have others, come to you. Because I've interviewed, I've spoken, I've met many super successful entrepreneurs, and the one thing everybody shares is you can tell 'em that you're their biggest fan and they feel nothing because it doesn't mean anything to them. And the thing that means something to them is having an impact on others, knowing that either the content or the business is helping others and seeing that emotional connection. But it's all about giving back. And it's not, it's no longer about how much money can you make and how much validation can you get because you've reached the top.

Rob: 50:41

Yeah. Yeah. There's so much good in there that you said, and one of the things I wanna build on is, this idea that outside of the business, whatever, however your life is, you've mentioned a spouse, so I just want to use that as an example. You're building your business and you, let's say you have a spouse and you're distracted with that, with your business'cause you don't know how to turn it off. And so how does that play into your relationship long term? If you have a spouse, you've gone into this relationship for the long term, you know, for your life. Really, that's the idea around it. And so what's more important to you? is it being fully present with your work or is it being fully present with your spouse? these are tough decisions. You have to think about these from a place of your heart. Because you wanna be successful in your business. You wanna grow it, you wanna make an impact, you wanna make money, all the things, but you wanna have a successful marriage as well. And then when your wife is picking up on the fact that you're not listening to her at the dinner table after she told you minute story of something that happened and then she says, what do you think? And you don't even know how to answer'cause you weren't even listening.'cause you were thinking about, all the things that are going on at work, at your business. that's not gonna make for a good long-term situation. Let's say you have kids, your kids know when you're not present with them, you could be throwing the ball around with them goofing around with them, but they know what's up there. they pick up on that energy I was talking about earlier. Kids are great at pick up on energy. They know when something's off and that creates an imprint in them. And so when they're older.. They have issues and sometimes they have no idea where it came from, but where it came from was the fact that you weren't present with them and that's all they cared about. They could give to anything about your company and your employees and your money and all that. They don't care about that. That is nothing. Your kids don't care for one second about any of that stuff. All they care about is your attention. That's all they want from you. Unconditional love, and isn't it funny that that's all we really want from anybody? Isn't that all we want? Don't we just want unconditional love from anybody else in our life? That's all we want from them. That's all that matters. You could still build a great business, by the way, and make money. You don't have to even give your money. I mean, I love your example, by the way, of taking less salary and all that. Go for it, but you don't have to do that. You could still build a great business. You just have to have a strong foundation in your life, a strong framework that where you're really clear about who you are, why you're doing what you're doing, and you create strong boundaries and you don't let the boundaries get blurred. That's one of the things we teach you, those 10 disciplines, is how to create that, that framework, so you can still go hard still with that drive, still satisfy all that is in you to build this empire, but be able to do it with peace because you're just so clear about why you're doing what you're doing. You're clear about who you are and you're clear about your boundaries and that gives you the time, your greatest asset. It gives you time it calms your mind. It gives you space in your mind so you can. Come from a place of love.

CODY: 54:09

that's powerful. it reminded me of this thought exercise that, that I love to, to think about and bring up is if you ask your kids or your partner, Hey, I can either, I can spend all day with you, but I'm gonna be partially on my phone, or I can spend one hour with you and give you my full attention, which one would you prefer?

Rob: 54:31

Yeah. That's so good.

CODY: 54:32

don't even have to think about what they're going to prefer. It's, that one hour and that, reflects this idea of being present with others. And then also what your message is partly here is also being present with yourself to know what are you feeling And that there's so much in how you can, having the awareness to know what you're feeling can have a much greater impact, from the people, your employees, the people around you. Especially as an entrepreneur, I think, the effect in entrepreneur can have on society is much greater than any one individual. So it's more important for us to be attuned with our emotions, how we're feeling. And then, as you say, to operate from a place of love and not fear.

Rob: 55:18

That is so good because that blessing that we have is we can build empires, and that has a great impact on our employees. It has a great impact on our clients, our stakeholders. The communities where we're in, where our businesses are in it all impacts it. and so when you're coming as an entrepreneur, when you realize that and you can start to identify on a daily basis how you are feeling, the thoughts that you're having, what's going on in there inside you, and you can work to release that and come from a place of love. And again, that's just a word I'm using there, you could use other words, but come from that place of love, people will pick up on that energy and that makes a big difference in their lives. You know, there's a moment, there's, there's a great saying by Viktor Frankl who wrote a great book called Man's Search for Meaning, and he says there's this moment between stimulus and response, and in that moment you get to choose happiness. It's a millisecond. And so sometimes we react in our lives, especially at business. we get really worked up about stuff, but we don't need to do that. It's just business is messy. Things happen. We don't need to get worked up about it. If you're smart, you're gonna figure it out. You always do. nothing to worry about. So you can pause in that moment between stimulus and response, and you can choose how you react to that situation. And your team members, your employees pick up on that. And when they see how calm you are in the eye of the hurricane, how do they react to that? They're gonna be calm. that makes a big difference when they go home because now they're not spinning and they can be present with their families and then they can come back and be better. A better team member at the company because they wanna do good work, but they just don't want, they don't wanna feel anxious anymore than you do. And so it's a big cycle about how we can make a difference as entrepreneurs. But we have to be very aware. And as I mentioned at the outset, we have to manage this. It's our responsibility. It is you've been given this gift. Take it seriously. You'll make your money, I promise you will make your money. you'll build your empire. you'll get everything you looking for. but do it with inner peace.'cause people will pick up on that and you'll make a great impact on them and the society that you're part of the world, you'll make a great impact.

CODY: 57:55

Yeah, I, I love your message and that it's possible to have your cake and eat, too, to be successful on the outside, but to also be successful on the inside. And that's a divide that I think is becoming greater and greater with technology, with society. And it's becoming more and more difficult to have that connection, not only that, that connection with what your ego wants, but also with what your soul needs. and so before we, end our conversation, I would love for you to go through you, you mentioned these disciplines a few times. I would love for you to just give the big picture view of what these disciplines are.

Rob: 58:34

So there are 10 of these disciplines that we teach that help you to maximize your energy, your impact. and Inner peace. I'm gonna say them fast, okay. And then I'll explain at the end. big picture, 10 year thinking. Shift your mindset from short term thinking to thinking in 10 year timeframes. Take time off. Take 130 days off per year and don't think about work the entire time. Know thyself be you 100% of the time, 247 365. Be still sit in silence for at least 30 minutes every single day. Know your 100%, which we talked about briefly decide on and commit to the perfect number of hours per week and weeks per year that you will deliver your value, your impact to this world. Say no, often say no to everything that doesn't fit in those first five disciplines. Don't do $25 an hour work or work below your pay grade. Never do anything that you could pay somebody that Prepare every night before your head hits the pillow. Every single night. Document the next day's plan. Put everything in one place. Pick one place that you're gonna capture every idea, commitment, thought, action, item, and promise as you make your way through your day. And finally, be humble. View yourself as an equal to every single person on this planet. And when you incorporate all 10 of those together, they have the ability to help you understand yourself better and protect you, and they protect you. In that you get really clear about those boundaries that I mentioned earlier, and you don't let the boundaries get blurred. And when you don't let the boundaries get blurred. You make greater impact. You're doing the things that matter most, and you can do it with inner peace. And so this, this is an important framework to have in our life as we build our empires.

CODY: 1:00:43

uh, I, I love that as there's, there's so many principles for how you should live and operate in life. Yet there's far few principles for how to operate from the heart as an entrepreneur. And love that these cover the gantlet from how you should work to not working too much, to how to prepare, how to make sure that you're not doing too much for others. that you're spending enough time with yourself. I really love these, and in fact, I think I'm gonna print them out and I'm going to put them next to my gratitude journal and probably reflect on them. I think that's an important component. You know, it's not just reading something about, but it's also reflecting upon it.

Rob: 1:01:24

You got it. You got it. And many people do exactly what you're saying. So yes, go to our website and, I believe we have some downloads of them so you can find them there. especially since you have the book, you could, I think there's a way to find them there. but yes, it printing them, having them in front of you is always a great reminder.

CODY: 1:01:43

Well, Rob, thank you so much for joining us today and just sharing your profound insights on mindful entrepreneurship and personal growth. Your dedication to helping entrepreneurs master not only their business, but also their inner world is really inspiring For everyone listening. If you wanna dive deeper into the practices that can transform your professional and personal life, I highly recommend picking up a copy of Rob's book. I absolutely loved reading it, and it's called Shine. How Looking Inward is the key to unlocking true entrepreneurial freedom? It's a fantastic resource for anyone looking to embrace the peace and purpose that comes with truly knowing oneself and aligning with one's core values. You can also visit Rob's website at Rob Dube DUBE.com to learn more about the 10 disciplines, explore his coaching services, or find out how you can participate in one of his transformative retreats. Rob, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you again for sharing your time and wisdom with us today.

Rob: 1:02:46

Thank you, Cody. It was my pleasure, and thank you for your thoughtful questions and remarks. They meant the world to me and it's been an honor to spend time with you.