TheDailyBrag
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TheDailyBrag
Narrative Power in Business with Seth Erickson
What happens when a high school basketball star takes an unexpected turn towards art school and eventually becomes a rave DJ? Join us for an enlightening discussion with Seth Erickson, who shares his incredible journey from a promising athletic career in Erie, Pennsylvania, to becoming a successful music producer in Los Angeles. Seth's story takes us through his nomadic childhood across multiple states and how a simple cassette radio sparked his lifelong passion for music. You’ll hear about his high school basketball days, the tough decision to pivot to art school, and the early days of his musical career, using rudimentary software like Mix Master.
Ever wondered how storytelling can transform your business? Seth reveals his transition from music to founding his agency, CODIS, in 2004, where he discovered the power of storytelling. Initially focused on aesthetic design, Seth explains how he found his true calling in helping clients convey their value through compelling narratives. Learn why effective communication is crucial for startups and how the ability to articulate a value proposition can mean the difference between success and failure. Seth’s insights into the brain’s response to stories and the significance of engaging narratives in marketing are truly eye-opening.
Customer service can make or break a business, and Seth shares some compelling examples, contrasting the exemplary service at Chick-fil-A with the growing reliance on automation. From personal anecdotes about exceptional customer experiences to the frustrations of automated systems, we explore what it takes to stand out in today’s market. We also discuss the mental challenges faced by entrepreneurs and the importance of maintaining a positive mindset. Seth highlights how positive storytelling can inspire others and the subtle difference between confidence and arrogance. If you're looking for practical advice, inspirational stories, and a few laughs along the way, this episode is a must-listen.
Hey Seth, good morning. Thank you for joining the Daily Brag. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm excellent and good morning as well. Yeah, early, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, seth, you grew up in Collin Texas. So, seth, you grew up in Collin, texas.
Speaker 2:Well, I currently live in McKinney, texas. I was born in Santa Barbara but I lived most of my life in Phoenix, so at least my early years. I've kind of bounced around since then living in California, utah, erie, pennsylvania and now Texas. So I'm a little bit of a nomad, I guess. Why so much moving around, if you don't mind me asking? Well, once I got a little bit older and moved out on my own, I was like I want to go back to California.
Speaker 2:So I moved there Uh, I wasn't when I was a senior in high school, uh, I moved to Erie, pennsylvania. Uh, actually, because of my basketball career. Uh, it was kind of a kind of an interesting situation. I um went for tryouts my senior year, um, and know basketball. I'm 6'8", so basketball was kind of like oh, this is going to be my career, I need to get into a good college and do all this stuff.
Speaker 2:And my basketball coach did not like me at all. I don't even know why. It wasn't like we'd had like a big falling out or whatever, but like he just, you know, I guess maybe he had a different style of play. But I went for tryouts and he basically said you know, you're on the team, but I'm not going to play you, so you might as well quit. Like that was yeah, and so I called a friend and ended up um, you know, you can't transfer to a different public school in the same year. And we had an amazing year. We won a tri-state championship between Pennsylvania, new York and Ohio, and that got me a lot of college offers.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, that's awesome. Did you go on the scholarship or no?
Speaker 2:No, I actually by the time I finished my senior year scholarship. Or no, no, I actually by the time I finished my senior year, I was so fed up with basketball that I um, I got, I got enough college letters to fill like a grocery bag, like I got a lot, and I took them all and I threw them in the trash and I went to art school. Um, which is what every parent always wants their child to do, is give up on free money and go to art school, from basketball to art school. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What's the name of the University of Technology Advancing?
Speaker 2:Technology yeah. University of Advancing Technology yeah. Okay, Did not play any basketball there. The only sport they played was hacky sack. Yeah, I don't even know what that is so, that little bag and you, you, it's full of like beans and you kick it around with your feet and kick it back and forth okay, yeah hacky sack.
Speaker 1:All right, yeah, um. So I want to say, by the way, thank you for sending me those songs. I, I love that. See, I Pray record, oh yeah yeah, it's actually really cool. I like it a lot. And then the Midnight I think it's called Midnight. It just gives me that LA vibe man, because I love LA, it's like one of my favorite cities.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely a club track.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It just reminds me of the vibe there in LA. How was it living there when you lived there? It was awesome. I mean, I grew up there for several years when I was a small child and we moved away. But when I moved back, I moved back in my 20s and I just completely you know, I'm 20. I'm in LA, you know it was a lot of fun. What can I say? I'm 20. I'm in LA, you know it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:What can I say Now? Is that what got you into music being in LA Cause?
Speaker 2:I just it's like one of those cities where the music scene is so big. No, I, I just always loved music. Um, when I was a kid, my uh, my grandparents bought me a little one of those like cassette radio things that has like a cassette on one side and a speaker on the other side, and um, they got it for me and I would just uh sit it next to my bed and I would listen to the radio, like when I was like eight or nine I'd listen to it late into the hours and I would. I actually started like in the late you know midnight, one o'clock range they would start start playing music that maybe was new or maybe they thought was good but it wasn't mainstream yet, and then they were kind of testing stuff out and so I'd start finding music there and stuff that I really enjoyed.
Speaker 2:And then I'd tell my friends I remember listening to what's that cake song that was the very first one about driving or whatever. I can't remember what the name of it is. They played that at like one in the morning and I was like I told all my friends about it and they were like this song is really cool. And I mean I remember listening to Busta Rhymes' Woo Ha song at one in the morning and I was like, dude, you got to check this out, you know, like. And then over time those songs started becoming more mainstream and so that kind of started my love of music. And then in around 2000, I, you know, became basically a rave DJ and that furthered that interest in music and that's what led to starting to produce music, because I was like, oh, I really like this stuff, I wonder how you make it.
Speaker 2:And you know, a lot of DJs produce, so it just kind of was a natural transition for me.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's pretty cool. So what was your first piece of equipment that you got for producing?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, it was this really simplistic software called Mix Master Pro, I think it costs like $59 or $69. And what it allowed you to do was load up samples into tracks, and the way that you would make a song was you would literally have to trigger the samples live while the song it would just, you would just hit record and you'd have to hit this and then hit this, and hit this, and hit this, and hit this, and and that was it. Like there was no going back and editing, like if you didn't trigger something at the right time or on the beat or whatever it just um it yeah. And so, um, I actually made a whole album that way and put it on a website called mp3.com way back in the day and I sold, you know, several albums. I, you know, ended up getting a song that apparently got really popular in New Zealand, of all places. It's just super random Um and uh yeah.
Speaker 2:So I went from there. I I mostly stuck with software, so I went from there and then I upgraded to something um, acid or something like that. It was like a Sony uh, it was a software that Sony made. And then I tried Fruity Loops for a while and then I finally landed on, uh, logic, and so that's, that's what I produce everything out of, and I've got a MIDI keyboard, you know, so I can do a little playing and um, but yeah, I, I don't sing or anything like that. And so, um, I started learning about music theory and like, oh, how do chords work together and how do you get notes? And and then you know, through the process it just dawned on me music is notes going up and down and rhythm, and if you can figure that part out, like you're probably going to be, you know, doing okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, but it's not so. It's not so.
Speaker 2:music is like your first love, or no, it's a hobby, it's just always something. Yeah, it's always something's a hobby, it's just always something. It's yeah, it's always something I've been interested in. Um, you know, I I would say that, after going through this whole process and changing my agency and whatnot, really storytelling is my first love. Um, you know, one of the one of the stories that that I like to tell is that, um, when I was a kid I think it was preschool my mom, my mom, went to pick me up from preschool and the teacher came out and met her and she was like your son has done something that we've never seen any other child do.
Speaker 2:And my mom thought that I had done something crazy because I was a hyperactive child. And she said, yeah, so we have this thing and we show like three panels and you know, we show these three pictures and we just basically ask the kids to describe what's happening in each panel. And so most children go, oh, you know, there's a dog, you know there's a, there's a house and there's a rabbit or something like that. And I I'm looking at the three pictures and I'm like this dog's name is timmy, this is the house that they live in together. This is his friend ted.
Speaker 2:Later they're gonna go play and and do all this other stuff and like, and I would just go on and on and they'd have to stop me right, like I would just start storytelling and building worlds and creating characters and all this stuff and to, to me that was normal, but apparently that was to the teacher. She was, like you know, been teaching kids for 10 years and she's like no child has ever like gone into the great detail that your son did, like they just usually say exactly what they see. So, um, so it's been a part of me for a long time and, uh, it's. It's actually only in the last, I don't know, seven years that I finally realized, like I'm a storyteller, that's my thing, like that's my purpose in life. Um, so, yeah, and you know, and like design, like I was always a good designer and I thought, well, this is my purpose because I'm good at this thing and it's like no design never was as fulfilling as understanding what I understand now about storytelling and helping people using storytelling.
Speaker 2:I thought you know, if I design pretty pictures, uh, and make really cool stuff and win awards like that, will you know that'll be really useful and it's like, to a degree it is. I mean we've got a lot of business when we won a Webby award back in 2014. Um, but you know, it doesn't necessarily help. It's more self-serving for it, or at least it was for me. It wasn't helping clients as much as I wanted to, and now we're we're doing that a lot more.
Speaker 1:Good stuff. I like it so really quick because I want to get into how you got into that, that, that part, and after graduating you graduated in 2003, if I'm not mistaken right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is that what my LinkedIn bio says? Is that when you graduated? I can't remember, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's what it says. But if you graduated then and then, did you start at CODIS at that point, or did you go into another job before you started CODIS?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I started CODIS in 2004. Actually, I started at another agency, probably in 2003. I had a partner, and after about a year of working together, we split ways and we agreed that nobody would use the name of the former company, which was called Midnight Insight, and so I had to come up with something new. And so, yeah, codis started in 2004. Okay, so how'd you come up with something new? And so, yeah, coda started in 2004.
Speaker 1:Okay. So how did you come up with the idea that you left school and then you wanted to start a business?
Speaker 2:How did you come up with that idea? I'd always been an entrepreneur Because of my basketball, and I was doing so much basketball it was like I was doing school stuff, but then I was doing so much basketball. It was like I was doing, um, you know, school stuff, but then I was doing private lessons. I was doing, um, you know, weight training, like you know all this other stuff. And so my parents were basically like, you're not allowed to have a job. You have to put basketball as your job. Focus on that.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, and they'd kick me 20 bucks here and there, um, and so I was like, well, I need to make more money than like 20 bucks here and there, which $20 went a lot further back in those days. But so I've, you know, I'd have have the comic book over here, and then I would try to redraw whatever I was seeing. And I just, I got better and better at it. And, um, I got connected with a guy who had a t-shirt company and he was like, dude, you know, you should draw designs for my t-shirt company. I love, I love your stuff. And I was like, okay, and so, um, I sold a couple of drawings to this t-shirt company and um, and I was like, hey, I can make money with my skills. And then, um, somebody was like, oh, you know you can draw really well. How did you know, can you do typesetting? And I was like I didn't even know what typesetting was. That was you know back in the days where and I?
Speaker 2:was like I didn't even know what typesetting was. That was, you know, back in the days where you know when you're working with like print and stuff. And then, when I was doing the typesetting job, somebody said you know, you're good at typesetting, can you do graphic design? And so it just kind of continued to push me towards you know, the direction of design.
Speaker 2:But you know, I was always freelancing, for I sold that first artwork when I was 14. And so I got a check for $200 and I thought I was freaking rich man, um, and so, um, when I got out of school, uh, I or yeah, around the time I got out of school, like the dot-com bubble was still kind of going on and I was like, you know, I actually applied to a bunch of agencies and one of them that had contacted me and said that they were interested, like literally closed their door like two weeks later, like went out of business.
Speaker 1:Oh man crap. What am I?
Speaker 2:going to do so and by that point I'd gotten into web design and I was like I like this web design thing and so I just started offering my services as a web designer because I didn't know what else to do, and and I also got a like a part-time job as an as an it guy, of all things, just because I knew a lot about computers. Again, it was one of those well, you know about computers, you know can you do stuff with networks, and I was like I'll learn, you know. So so, yeah, it was just my path has constantly been, you know, getting good at something and then being offered something that's sort of adjacent to that, and then getting good at that, and then another opportunity comes along. So so, yeah, I've always kind of had an entrepreneurial spirit. I mean, I would go around school and I would take bags of candy and, you know, get those little candies that you get around um Halloween time.
Speaker 2:And I would sell, you know, like little boxes of nerds and stuff and I'd sell those for a quarter, you know, and I'd make you know 10 or $15 a week and clear, like you know, 12, $12 in profit. And so it. There was a lot of little things that that I was just doing that pushed me into the direction of being an entrepreneur. Um, you know, nobody was like you should sell candy and make money or you should sell, you know, designs. It just, it just happened and I took opportunities that I was given.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny. I've always wondered how, because I've I've never done that, but I've always wondered how, what, um, what is the mindset of those kids? That they just get up and they're like, hey, I'm just. You know, they have that entrepreneur spirit so early on, cause I wish I had that. But I see a lot of kids do it and I wonder is that something that that, uh, you saw your parents were doing as far as like?
Speaker 2:what did you have a parent that was an entrepreneur and you said you know, I want to be like that, and you started doing it, or it just kind of clicked for you, um well, my dad, he was a, he was a contractor, he did remodel work, um, and so to a degree he he's kind of a kind of a freelancer, kind of an entrepreneur, um, although funny enough, uh, you know, when I was a kid he'd take me out on jobs and I was like I need to do something else. I do not want to do this kind of work, you know, yeah, uh, cause I I mean I laid tile with him, poured concrete, painted houses, you know freaking, climbed all over roofs, doing you know like and like. I was young, I was like you know 10. And I was, I already at that point was like I'm not doing this, no, um, so, so part of me, I think, was like I need to make some money. Um, and I need to.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, and that was kind of the driving thing in in like high school is like I need to make money. I mean, like I said, you know, my parents were, you know, kind enough to give me 20 bucks here and there, but, like you know, it wasn't like. You know, I had this like massive allowance, like I literally could put some gas in the car and, you know, go out to eat. And yeah, I didn't get that every week either.
Speaker 2:Like so, um, so I had to make that stretch, you know, uh, and and yeah, and so I was like, how do I make more money? Well, sell some candy, you know, um, yeah, I, I don't know. I just I came up with a bunch of different like hustles when I was in high school, trying to figure out how to make more money, and um, but yeah, selling my first artwork showed me, you know, I had a skillset and I people would pay me for that skillset and I didn't have to like work for them in a nine to five job, right, and so, um, so yeah, I spent a long time just as a freelancer before I actually built CODIS into an agency.
Speaker 1:So built CODIS into an agency, so got it and so as a freelancer, you were as an individual freelancer or a CODIS was the was kind of what you freelanced under before you turn it into a full-blown agency it.
Speaker 2:So I would say from so for a long time I didn't even have a company, I just was I'm Seth, I build websites, you know what are you looking for, kind of a thing. And then, um, I started making enough money that I had to like get an accountant. And an accountant was like you need a business, like so, um. So my accountant kind of straightened me out, but then for a long time it was just you know, Seth Erickson, you know doing business as CODIS agency, basically. And then I, actually what was really interesting was so in 2006, I met a developer. We kind of teamed up, so then it was like me and the developer and then later on in the future, his wife would start working with us as a project manager.
Speaker 2:And then, um, in 2008, when the financial market was collapsing, we actually grew by 20%, like and then for the next couple of years, we did 20% year over year, and then, by 2010, it was like, oh crap, we need to start adding some staff. And so, um, I hired another, another guy hired another guy who kind of became my director of operations, and then, by 2015, we had 22 employees, and it was crazy.
Speaker 1:Amazing. So they said. One of the things that you say is that 90% of businesses, well, 90% of startups, fail within the first year. Right, and you want to try to reduce that number with storytelling. So how can you do that with storytelling? And then, how does that fit into your business? As far as was storytelling the thing that drove your business, what do you think drove it? Drove your business.
Speaker 2:Okay. So to answer the you know the first part of that question, the 90%. What I see quite often is that businesses don't communicate their value well to the marketplace. Well, to the marketplace, you know. And if you don't answer the question, why the hell should I care? You know which is the question in the customer's mind then you're kind of dead in the water, right Like the you know customer's not buying. They don't, you know, want your product. You know it's not.
Speaker 2:If you have a product or service, it's not as subjective as music, for instance, right Like, somebody can be like, oh, I like this, I don't like that, but you know you, but you don't necessarily you can't communicate value the same way you do with the product, like and so what I? What I often see happening with startups is they're either not communicating well to their investors, meaning they're going to a pitch meeting and they've got a deck you know an 80 slide deck and it's just numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers and they're not getting the investors invested in the idea. And so part of that is the numbers are great and there's nothing wrong with them. It's just you need to tell a story first that gets the investors interested, and once they become interested, then they'll be more interested in the numbers, and so the order of operations is kind of incorrect. But I also see startups that get funding or they're bootstrapping, or they've got an angel investor and they're just going straight to the market and they're having the same problem. They're sitting there going we have this amazing new AI, blah, blah, blah, and it's like so what dude?
Speaker 2:So everybody has AI today? That's like saying I have a phone, oh great man, so does everybody. How does your AI thing solve my problem? And, honestly, most customers don't care that you have AI. I mean, the early adopters will. But like everybody else is like AI. What is that? Skynet? Like this is not, you know, it's, it's not a selling point to most customers. And so it's like you got to tell this, tell a story, and when you tell the story correctly, you're telling a story about your customer, you're bringing your customer into that story. You're not telling a story about your business and how awesome you are and how amazing you are, and that's what where a lot of companies go wrong. It's like. It's like going up to a person or having somebody come up to you that you've never met, and they just start bragging about themselves Right Like in in in a bad way obviously um you know I'm, you know I'm amazing.
Speaker 2:This is my house, I got this awesome car and you're like dude, I don't even know you Like all of the Instagram kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like who cares about all this stuff that you have, like you know? So that's you know. So I see a lot of like you could call it miscommunication or poor communication happening between um, between these startups and their customers, and and and the other thing is, too, is like I often say, you know, storytelling is very powerful, but it's not a magic bullet, so you can't tell the wrong story, you know, to the wrong people, right Cause there's they'll still not care. But you know, the idea is that we should use stories. So that was the. I'm trying to answer the first part of that question. What was the second part?
Speaker 1:because I yeah, no, they always say don't, don't do that, don't ask two questions in one, because you always forget that one of the parts no, the second part was if, if, storytelling is what drove your business. If you use the same idea to drive your business.
Speaker 2:Today, yes, yes, yes, we definitely do, but we didn't in the past, not at all. It was about 2015 when a friend of mine was like dude, you're a storyteller. And he gave me a book called Story Wars by Jonah Sachs. And my response to him was like that's great, I'm a storyteller, cool. But like, how do I monetize that? Right, like, I don't know how to sell stories and you know, and I'm definitely not going to go write scripts, and I was also thinking at the time, I'm definitely not going to write a book. Well, surprise, uh, I read that book and he got into some really interesting stuff and the guy ran an agency. And I was like wait, he is a storyteller and he's running an agency and he's making money. That's really fascinating.
Speaker 2:And so I started going down the rabbit hole of like getting my hands on every book about story that I could Joseph Campbell's the Hero's Journey, robert McKee's the Script. I read books by Lisa Krohn. There were lots of books and some of them had nothing to do with well, they had everything to do with storytelling, but it was like this is how you write stories for a script, this is how you write stories for a book. Like I just read everything I could get my hands on and, um, and what I started seeing was in the books, people would reference neuroscience. And when they were referencing neuroscience I was like, well, that's really interesting, let's, let's go down that rabbit hole. And um, there were a lot of papers on the topic where they're explaining what's happening in the brain. And so I kind of went down another rabbit hole there and I read several hundred research papers in there. They're all boring as hell, but there was really good information in them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you say that the brain is like a computer. Right, and so you can hack the brain, or you can hack the human, because the brain is like a computer. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, if you think about it, we have a conscious and a subconscious. That's like your Windows and your DOS, or your OSX and uh and Unix, um, we have short-term and long-term memory. That's like Ram and your hard drive, right, we have, um, we have firewalls. That's basically our bias. Um, and I talk about bias a little bit because, like, people always act like, oh, bias is always negative and it's like, no, it's actually not. Like, if we didn't have bias, we couldn't really function in the world because we would just be stupid.
Speaker 2:So, so, if you, you know, as I started reading these papers, I the idea started forming in my head. You know, man, we're a lot like computers, and that makes sense because we're creating these things right, like we're kind of duplicating ourself. And I said, well, if we're like computers and we've got this operating system, then, and what I'm learning about storytelling through neuroscience is, you know, these stories, you know, get stuck in our memory and they tend to kind of repeat, like, so they're like applications and that's really it. Stories are kind of like applications that run on the operating system, and so if we have an operating system and stories are the applications, there has to be a way to write to these applications, you know, to edit them, to update them, to delete them, to modify them. You know, yeah, and so what is that thing? And it's like, well, it's storytelling to delete them, to modify them. You know, yeah, and so what is that thing? And it's like, well, it's storytelling.
Speaker 2:And when you start to understand more about the neuroscience, how, um, when somebody tells a story, the listener, the brain of the storyteller and the brain of the listener actually start the wavelength, start to synchronize, so like it gets really there's, you know, there's like a lot of really interesting things that start happening.
Speaker 2:And you know, if you look at, like, like you know, where did we come from? Well, we had to pass information along from generation to generation so that, you know, the next generation would survive and do better and learn from our mistakes. And so we use storytelling to do that. We were doing that before we were painting on, even doing paint inside of cave walls, because we always talked or we had some level of communication. And we're doing that before we are writing on parchment or papyrus, you know. And so so it makes sense that we either developed this, this thing, or we had it from the beginning, or or however you want to put it, and I'm just kind of bringing everything full circle, saying let's start tapping back into that and the science now has caught up to be to basically support the ideas that I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:And that's why I started the book with the neuroscience. It was like I'm not just yanking your chain or this isn't my opinion, right, like here's what the science says. And I tried to take, you know, the most relevant pieces because I didn't want to like completely overload the reader's brain by going. And then there was this study and this study and this study, and like I could have added you know 20 more things, and by the end your brain, you know steam, would have been coming out of your head.
Speaker 1:So Speaking about the brain and how we react to stories. So why is it that the brain reacts so well to stories as opposed to when it hears facts and figures?
Speaker 2:So that it really just has to do with the wiring, but also so facts and figures only lights up two parts of the brain, and those two parts are like language, like listening and comprehension, right, and when you tell a story so part of the reason this happened actually connects to another idea, which is called simulation. When you tell a story, at least a story that engages the reader, something called simulation happens, and in simulation, your brain starts lighting up in these seven different areas. I can't remember the names of all of them, but it's basically like you start to, um, your sensory organs start to to like, you start to visualize, so your eyes starting getting engaged, your ears can get engaged, your sense of smell can get engaged, um, your emotions get engaged, uh, you know. And so all this stuff, um starts lighting up in the brain, and it's because the simulation is happening. And the simulation starts happening, um, in a lot of different ways. Like you, it could be me telling you a story, but it could be you going and watching a movie. It could be you reading a book, it could be you listening to a song that has a story in it, uh, like, like that journey song that we were talking about earlier. So, um, so, when the, when all those things light up, it makes it easier for you to retain what you saw. Um, because it's, you know, I don't know how technical. Uh, we want to go here, but there's a um thing called a raid system and computers and servers, and what happens is a piece of data goes on to one and it's duplicated across, you know, let's say, seven other hard drives, and that's to keep redundancy in case of a failure.
Speaker 2:Well, your brain kind of works the same way, and stories do that much better than just saying did you know 90% of startups fail. It's like, well, yeah, okay, but there's no story there, right? Like, well, why does that happen? And that engages people, and so it's a easy stat to remember because it's repeated so often in the startup world. But to the average person that's not in the game, if you will. They're like 90% of startups fail, oh, okay, cool. And then you know, a day later they've completely forgotten that.
Speaker 2:So, with the storytelling, though, it duplicates all those things across across different parts of your brain, and that's why memories can be triggered, like if you smell some cooking, you hear some song, somebody tells you something, and and what? Quite often the response that I would give is that reminds me of a story. Yeah, and so that also helps things go into long-term memory and stick with you better. You know it actually writes the hard drive instead of just staying in the RAM, and so that's where I, you know, I'm trying to help these startups go. Or, you know, I'm trying to help them understand, like, would you like to be more memorable to your customers?
Speaker 1:Would you not?
Speaker 2:you know, would you prefer to be memorable as opposed to being like a one and done oh, I bought that product that one time and and then people forget about that. You know that product or that service or whatever. Um, you know, I've hired people to do stuff and I'm like, ah crap, what was that? What was that maid cleaning service I use? They were good, but like there was no connection with them, right, because they just came in, they clean, they left. I mean, they did a great job, but, um, I just couldn't remember their name because it was like you know something, maids, and there was nothing you know that sticks with you there. Because every maid cleaning service is like this maid service that make this cleaning service whatever, and they all kind of are. Uh, they almost become a commodity because there's nothing about them that makes them stand out. But if they had told the story, right, then I would have remembered and they would have stood out in my mind. Um, right, so that's, that's again. That's. You know, that comes back to communication, right, or you know?
Speaker 1:so, so, man, that's real power in storytelling, and I I say that, and I I'm going to use music and books as an example, like you just did in a sense, because I find when I read books, especially if it's a book that I enjoy, I feel like there's a book called I forgot the name of it, anyway but you kind of like I was reading that book and it felt like when she described the room, I almost felt I was in that room or I could smell the what she was talking about, and it just it's like the way she described it in the book. You almost felt like you were there, uh. And then, with music, you can, I tell people all the time, with good music, um, if the song is good, you can always, uh, go back to when, where you were, what was happening in your life when you heard that song. So I feel like that's the power of storytelling. So what is your favorite thing about storytelling?
Speaker 2:My favorite thing. Oh man, there are so many things about storytelling that I love. So Obviously I love stories, but if I'm not speaking specifically about marketing, I love interesting characters that you can see them go through a transformation. They go through the hero's journey and they transform from being weak to strong, or they transform from being a bad guy into a good guy, and even the ones where the good guy turns into a bad guy. It's like there's something interesting there about the human experience and when a storyteller can do that well, I love that.
Speaker 2:I actually am watching the TV series Ted Lasso and it is some of the best storytelling on TV. I've literally told people like you should spend the 60 bucks for Apple TV plus or whatever it's called, just for that show, because it is some of the best writing I've ever seen. So, um, but you know, if I'm talking from a marketing thing, uh, or a marketing perspective, what's? What's my favorite thing about story? It's thing, uh, or a marketing perspective, what's what's my favorite thing about story it's? It's when the story hits with the audience and they are, like you know, opening your emails at a higher rate. They're clicking through at a higher rate, they're calling you at a higher rate. You know um, you know it's resonating and and that that I love, because then I know my clients are winning, you know.
Speaker 2:So, um, so I don't know answer that two ways for you.
Speaker 1:No, that's awesome, by the way, the name of that book for, for anyone listening is memoirs of a geisha. It's, it's a really good book. Uh, very descriptive, um. And so give me, um, an example, or two examples, if you don't mind, of a company that told a really good story, a startup that told a really good story and helped them get into the market, well, and then a startup or a company that told a really bad story and it just didn't work out for them.
Speaker 2:Like the company failed because of their storytelling.
Speaker 2:Well, let's see, although I would say Apple is a great example, because they were literally on the deathbed when Steve Jobs came back in and they started telling the story of we are the rebels, we fight the status quo, we're the, you know, we fight the status quo. And that actually pulled them out of a tailspin. Now, technically they weren't a startup in the traditional sense, but it just shows that telling a good story, um, and, and what's great about how you tell your story, is it? It can resonate with a lot of people, or just it can resonate with the right people, and I think in Apple's case, it resonated with the right people and they were able to, you know, pull out of that tailspin and and start moving more products, which gave them the capital to, you know, invest in developing the, um, the iPod, right, and then, and then, from there, they continue to tell that story Look how innovative, innovative we are. They kind of changed even more and said we're innovative because we're different, you know, think different was kind of their slogan for a long time.
Speaker 1:Um oh man a bad startup.
Speaker 2:I can't remember the name of the company. Um, they, they, uh, they had a like a ton of investment and it was something in the medical world, um, and they basically told a story that their product worked. And it was this, uh female CEO and it's escaping me right now but they, they got like a lot of money in investment and then it all. It turned out, like you know, that basically they were telling a story that their product worked and it was amazing and it could do all this stuff, and then it turns out it didn't and, yeah, all the investors, you know, pulled the rug out from under that whole thing and yeah, but again, I can't remember the name of it. It's going to drive me crazy now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you remember, I'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was run by this female CEO and I just remember when they were getting the investment and stuff and they were writing all these articles and look at this powerful female CEO and all this stuff. And then it finally the truth came to the light of day and, yeah, it just didn't work and it was like, oh, we just need more time, we just need more time. And yeah, it turned out to be a big story about fraud. Oh wow.
Speaker 1:That's not the one with. No, this is a different thing, because there was a girl that I know she was the CEO of this company. I think she was young, she was in her 20s. She got all this money to launch this business and the product that she created didn't work, but it was in the medical field, is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the one.
Speaker 1:She was all over the news.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's it yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't remember the name.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I know what story you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, but she told a great story, obviously, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some of it was fraudulent too. We'll go to something else. So, seth, is it better to tell the company story instead of the CEO story? You know what I mean. Like, I see some companies that they're focused. The story that they're focused on is just around the business itself, not like the product, maybe not necessarily the founder of the business, and then some companies have a really strong focus around the founder, like I think apple is has a big focus around the founders of the business. Am I wrong in that?
Speaker 2:Well, so Apple. So Steve Jobs you know, when he was alive, you know he would be front and center at their events when they were showing off new products and whatnot and so, but even he would stand up there and tell a story about the product. But even he would stand up there and tell a story about the product. His personality and his charisma and genius, I think, got a lot of people interested in him and they wrote about him make amazing products that people are going to love, and here's why you're going to love the new iPhone. Here's why you're going to love the iPad. Here's why you're going to love the iPod. The ear, you know the ear pods, this thing they I mean they literally start some of their videos with. Here's why you're going to love this thing.
Speaker 2:Um so I think, um, while a lot was written about Steve jobs and you know he did a lot of amazing things for Apple and there's a reason he should be written about I don't think Apple was specifically, you know, ever like marketing Steve Jobs. You know they were always marketing their products and you know what. What I try to get companies to understand is like your company story while it might be interesting if somebody is loyal to your brand, it's not interesting to somebody who doesn't know you. It's like that example I gave earlier where it was like somebody just comes up to you and starts bragging. Well, imagine if somebody came up to you and was like my family has run a business for a business for 20 years and dah dah, dah, dah, and you're like okay, like again, how does that connect to me?
Speaker 2:How does that help me? How does that? You know, because we're all very self-focused and, um, it's, it's. It can be negative, obviously, but it's also good because it's helped us survive. So what I'm trying to get these companies to do is stop talking about themselves. You can talk about the product, but you have to explain why the product solves the problem that they have. And quite often they don't talk about that stuff. They're like you know, they'll go on and on about ingredients like that are in their product, or the environmental packaging or whatever.
Speaker 2:And it's like the only reason any business exists is to solve a problem for their customer, and so many businesses lose sight of that, and so that's why, when you use storytelling, you can, like I said earlier, invite a customer into that story and tell the story about them, and it's like I mean infomercials do this better than some people. It's like do you have hair loss? Well, I have a product that you should check out, and that's one of the simplest stories you can tell is problem and solution, you know. Do you have a headache? Yes, I have a headache, great. Would you like to buy some aspirin. Yes, I would Right Like yeah, it's real simple, but we make it over complicated and we too often make it for you know, make things about ourselves.
Speaker 2:You go to like this website and they're like we're number one in roofing, we're number one in customer service, we're number one in whatever, and it's like the customer doesn't care about that. That is you like, you know, basically fluffing your own nuts Like it's, like it's not an not important to to the customer. I mean, it is to a degree. It shows, you know, there's a level of competency there, but it doesn't answer the question of how are you going to solve my problem? That's why I'm coming to you, and so, with good storytelling, you can say hey, I understand your problem. You know, I've been there. I can lead you through this thing. I understand how tough it is. I know, you know, I understand the villain that you're fighting.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's essentially what you know, what every company needs to do is set themselves up as the mentor that helps the hero overcome his problem. You want to be, you know, the Obi-Wan Kenobi to the Luke Skywalker, and I mean there's so many movies where the hero, like the hero meets the guide. The guide's like oh, I see, you have this problem. I've been there, I've done that and now, um, I will teach you how to do that. Daniel sun needs mr miyagi so he can defeat the bullies. Like you know, like any, like most good movies will have, they will have some sort of relationship like that and that's what makes it for an interesting thing. And in our own lives we see that same pattern repeating. Right, like I'm sure in your life you've had people who have helped you along the way. You've had mentors who have said, hey, here's how you do this, here's how you do that. I've had several and again. So as a company, you want to position yourself as the mentor. Your story is important, but only after the hero buys in, right?
Speaker 1:And again.
Speaker 2:it's like there's this kind of order of operations In math class where it was like, well, you can't do this number until you do this other number and then you can do the next one, and you know. And that's where again I see a disconnect.
Speaker 1:So got it. And as a business owner, seth, how do I come up with a good story Like where do I? What's the starting point for me?
Speaker 2:Well read my book.
Speaker 1:Yes, that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean in the book I actually I came up with something that I thought was pretty clever, which is, you know, as, after you understand the neuroscience and you understand why it's so powerful, and you start understanding how do I create a story. I give you a Mad Libs, basically, so you can go through and you can go. Oh, I just need to plug in what the problem is, who the villain is, what the hero is struggling with. You know some level of empathy, right, because the mentor understands, because they've been down that path, right, like I mean, even if you're a roofer, you're like you know we understand how bad it sucks when you know you get hail damage, or you know, and now you've got water leaking into your house and you know you're trying to. You know, like, get all your stuff and move out, or whatever. You know, like, show some empathy, that you understand the problem, right, like, um, and, and then you know you kind of go through this whole process and then at the end you know you can make your pitch, like that's why you should hire Acme roofing, right, and you have to connect with people through that story. And then, once you connect with them, then they're more interested in like, oh, these guys get it right. Like they get me, they get my problem. That's what we, as the hero, want, want companies to understand. And some companies do that really freaking well and some do it horribly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know like I'm a big, big fan of like Chick-fil-A, because they, um, they actually don't just say we care about our customers, no, they treat their customers like they care about them, right, like you go up to the window and they're like how may I serve you? Right, I went through the, through the drive-in, or the drive-in the drive-through, a couple of of weeks ago and they took my order ahead of time Cause they had the people standing out there, um, doing the, doing the cards and stuff. And I got up to the window and I was like, oh crap, I forgot to order a drink. And the lady's like, well, what did you want? And I said, oh, it was like a large Coke, zero or whatever. And she goes, okay, turns around, pours the drink, and I'm like what do I owe you? She's like, don't worry about it, gave me the drink.
Speaker 2:Right, like, they teach, they teach their employees to like treat customers well. And and they, you know, I talked about it in the book. There's a whole campaign where they weren't just saying things like that are platitudes. They were putting what they were saying into action and what they were teaching their people into action. To the point where, like, an employee noticed a lady had a flat tire in um, I don't know it was Atlanta or something, um, and it was raining outside and the guy went outside and helped her. Uh, you know, put a donut on her car. Like, no, management didn't say go out there and fix the car. He did it because that's the culture of the organization and yeah, they don't go. We're number one in customer service. Like that's not plastered on the homepage. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's crazy, seth, because I feel like companies have been getting away from customer service as opposed to. I feel like even more so important at this time that the time that we're in for them to really focus put their focus on customer service, but it feels like they're all getting away from it, and I say that because just not not just me, but talking to other people as well One of the frustrations for a lot of customers is that you have an issue with a company. You call and you have to talk to a robot, or you can't get a. You keep hitting 000 to try to get to someone and you can't ever get someone on the phone right and that's really frustrating.
Speaker 1:So how do you see that changing in the future? Or it feels like the it's just going to. Companies are just going to continue to automate stuff where you know the customers just interact with the robot as opposed to speaking to a person who is going to treat them well.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know. I'm an optimist, so my hope would be that it would get better, but things don't always trend in the direction that the optimist wants them to go. But I mean, that is, you know, when you start seeing that kind of stuff and I actually talked with somebody about this recently that so the story that happens within an organization creates the culture. And based on that story and that culture, you get actions. And sometimes they're good actions, you know, like Chick-fil-A, and sometimes they're bad actions, like what you're talking about, like well, how can we save more money? How can we put more money in the shareholders' pockets? How can we not have people answering the phones and just make a robot do it? And then we're removing human connection. And when you were saying, like I just kept hitting zero, zero, zero, I'm like what's even better than that is when you get somebody in a foreign country that barely speaks english and you're trying to explain to them what your problem is and they're like reading off a script and they don't really understand what your problem is. And then you're like I need to find somebody different. So now I got to go back through the whole you know phone tree, you know robocall whatever thing and try to find somebody that speaks a little bit better English or maybe I'll get routed to you know somebody else and it's and I'm not blaming those people like they're doing their job and it's it's hard like to understand people's accents sometimes. So, you know, it's like it's awesome that they're working, but, yeah, it's like you know, um, I remember in 2005, uh, my, my ipod actually broke, like it wasn't charging anymore, and I dialed.
Speaker 2:Uh, I found the phone number for apple, uh, support. I dialed it and on the first ring somebody picked up the phone and I was like holy crap, are you a human? Like, uh, they had a call center in ireland and I was and, and and and, yeah, they. The guy literally picked up and he was like apple, you know, apple, know Apple. I was like, I was confused, like and, and I, yeah, I was like you're, wait, you're a person. Like why didn't you have to talk? He's like no, we, you know, we have this giant call center. We answer the phone and um, and so you know, again calling. You know I'm talking to somebody in a foreign country, but it they're, you know they speak english, so it's a little easier to to get along you know there's an accident and whatnot, but um same thing.
Speaker 2:I I called them another time and I got somebody in australia and I was like, oh awesome, I'm talking to an australian guy, I'm not. I know, I'm not paying for the international call, so that's awesome no, it's, it's really frustrating.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you a quick story. So I um the company I work with, uh, I had a. I managed I think I told you I managed 40 employees for this business and I had one new employee that came on board. She needed to get her laptop set up and she needed to speak to the it team. She got so frustrated that she said I'm done, I'm not even communicating with them anymore. So you have to.
Speaker 1:We don't have a choice, that's the way we got to get it fixed she's like no, I can't, I can't do it, I can't understand them, they can't understand me, it's just going in circles. But she got so frustrated the lady almost quit within her first week just because she couldn't get her laptop set up, and it was just so frustrating for her. But even internal companies internally, you know it's just, but, like you said, you know these guys are doing their jobs. It's not their fault, but it's really. It can get very frustrating. Yeah, so I hope more companies take an example from what you just described with Apple. Yeah, so one of the things that you talked about, seth, is you know, when we talk about how someone can come up with a good story, part of that is knowing your avatar right, and you wrote an article on how to unconventionally come up with your avatar. Can you break that down for us?
Speaker 2:Oh man, I didn't even know we were going to go in this direction. So I wrote that article out of my own frustration, because I couldn't figure out what is the ideal customer. And this was actually before it was in the transition period. There was this gulf or this chasm that we were trying to cross, because it was like we need to stop being a web design agency and and we've transitioned into like a branding storytelling agency. But in the middle, right, like it was the Valley that we were going through trying to figure out what, what the hell are we doing here? And and so you know, part of it was like well, who is our ideal customer? And and so we I started reading all this stuff, all these other articles people had written, and I was like you know, this is like the same advice and it's it's really just becoming a trope. It's not actually useful. I mean, it might be for some people, but it wasn't for us, based on the fact that we had worked in 42 different industries. Um, and so we didn't really have any clear direction, like some people are like oh, I've always worked with lawyers. Well, great, you should probably continue to work with lawyers. You understand them that you're probably going to speak their language.
Speaker 2:But you know, we had worked with, like, at&t, warner brothers, um, lg, uh you know, like just some, just to name some, some big brands, kawasaki, like, and. And then we'd worked with, like you know, a Jewish synagogue. And, like I used to say, I think we've worked with everybody from startups to synagogues Um, that was kind of my uh, my little stick, if you will, um and uh, you know, construction companies, um, medical device companies, like it. Just, we, we've done a crazy amount of work. And so we were like but who do we work with? And it was actually a business coach of mine.
Speaker 2:That was, um, like I wrote that article and then I actually met this business coach of mine. That was like I wrote that article and then I actually met this business coach. That's been really great for the business. And she pointed out to me she's like who have you worked with the most? And I was like startups and she was like do you like working with startups? Yes, okay, why aren't you working with startups? And it was like the answer was like, so close, I was like I don't see it. Where's my hand? Where's my hand, where's my hand? And she was like, oh, there, it is Right. Like um, so I, I, yeah, I actually wrote that article, partially out of frustration, um, in my own life, partially out of frustration from the advice that other people were giving and um, and yeah. So, honestly, it's been several years, or at least a couple of years, since I wrote the article, so I don't remember everything I said in it at this stage. You'd have to remind me.
Speaker 1:No, it was good, and I actually saved the article because I'm going to reread it, because I'm still trying to find my own avatar for what I'm doing here, because I think I initially had had one avatar, one idea of where I was going with it, and then that changed, so I'm reworking it, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2:Um, oh yeah we I mean we, we went through that same process like, yeah, we worked in the roofing industry for several years because we were like, and we, we did some stuff in manufacturing for a year, like we just kept trying stuff and yeah and and, like I said it was, it was such a a facepalm moment when, when the coach was like okay, why don't you just work with startups? You like working with them and you've worked, you've worked with over a hundred, so it seems like you might have some experience in that field that you could probably utilize.
Speaker 1:So, Seth, like the book Hacking Humans, give us a breakdown of the book. I just want to say this before you go into there. So I read some of it story classic, so every chapter has a song that accompanies it uh-huh, uh, which which I think is cool. What made you come up with the idea to have a song that accompanies every chapter of the book? Uh?
Speaker 2:well, I, I love movies and I've been a dj and so you know, when you, when you're a DJ, you you learn about crate diving, right, like it's. It's the research that you do to find songs and stuff that, like people um might not have heard or missed or whatever. Um, you know that that helps set you apart as a DJ and and you know you're also crate diving if you're creating, you know, finding samples and stuff to produce music. But so, and I love movies, and so it's like the two things combined in my mind and I was like, well, if a movie can have a soundtrack, why can't a book have a soundtrack?
Speaker 2:And I've listened to a ton of music, like I'm all over the place, like I think there's like six or seven different countries represented in that playlist and I'd never heard of anybody doing it before. And I was like this is obvious to me. But yeah, like yeah, so yeah, and the story classic chapter that was just playing off of Coke classic. So, but yeah, the song, the song I picked, which I I have a feeling you might want to want to talk about, um, I was like this is a classic of of that, of that era, and it tells a story, so it totally works.
Speaker 1:So good, good, yeah, again, it's don't stop believing which I was listening to before we started the interview on the actual playlist. So if, for anyone who goes out and get the book, uh, there's a playlist as well on spotify, so you gotta listen to the the playlist and you, you know what, after you read the book or before, I don't know whatever. However, whatever order you want to do it in, but it's great, it's, I love it, it's, it makes a lot of sense. So I woke up and getting ready for the interview and I put the playlist on. I'm like, man, this is awesome. Great songs too, a lot of great songs on there. So if you were to tell anyone you know, go out and get the book, specifically Now, of course you want them to read the entire book. Is there any chapter that you would say you know? Really pay attention to this particular chapter for any reason?
Speaker 2:Well, I would say, if you're a marketer I think one of the I mean obviously you should read the whole book or your startup. But, like, one of the chapters that I think is really important is called Cold Email Pickup Artist, called Cold Email Pickup Artist, and it talks about people basically sending you emails that are total strangers and they're poorly written and don't make any sense half the time. And I explain how do you use storytelling to write a good email that will make people want to get past the first line. You know, because most people like they'll click on it If the subject line is interesting. And then you know the read the first line and you know, quite often you've lost them, like, or they look at it and they're like I'm not reading all this crap, and then you just delete it or send it to junk mail. Um, so, so that chapter just right there, um, would help so many companies do better email marketing, which is a really important marketing tool for a lot of companies. So, um, uh, so that that one uh is a big one. But I mean, you know I cover some other stuff that kind of goes a little bit off the beaten path.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, like, I have a chapter called uh uh, mental milkshakes and sadness Sundays, called Mental Milkshakes and Sadness Sundays, and it's kind of talking about something that entrepreneurs often don't talk about, which is the mental game that you're playing and how difficult it can be and how lonely it can be, and realizing that negative thoughts are like junk food they're easy to consume.
Speaker 2:Positive thoughts are like junk food they're easy to consume. Um, you know, positive thoughts are like eating your vegetables, like you actually have to, you know, sometimes choke them down, but they're good for you. Yeah, you know, and it's like you have to like, be able to like, force, like, force your brain and say, no, we're not going to think this negative thing, or we're not going to assume that, you know the company is going to fall apart tomorrow, or we're not going to believe you know this BS, that you know this review that somebody left you know, it's not true Like they're just pissed off and they were having a bad day or whatever. You know, like you, you kind of have to keep, keep your mindset positive, and so that's another thing, cause like another thing, because, like I said, when you're running a business, it can be lonely at the top, as they say, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I read that chapter, by the way, I'm sorry, I read the article of that and I was going to tell you I really like the title of it. But I read it and I didn't realize it was a chapter in the book after I read it. Yeah, yeah, but I read it and I didn't realize it was a chapter in the book after I read it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's what the that's what a lot of the bonus chapters are. Is there? Um, there are articles that I felt like and they had to be modified a little bit for the book, but there are articles that I was like, no, this is good work and it relates to the subject, um, and it's important, like it's just you know, like I said, like it's just you know, like I said, to stop eating junk food for your brain you know, you know that'll get you healthier.
Speaker 2:Um, and then start putting you know good vegetables in it and that'll get you even healthier.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, it's a great. I love that article. So one of the things, uh, I wanted to ask you Seth is right Um name of the podcast, which is Daily Brag Born Ready to Achieve Greatness. How can an entrepreneur achieve greatness by telling their story?
Speaker 2:It's not so much about their story unless their story is showing can show people how what they're talking about helps them, helps the other people, and I think you know, like there's a famous quote by a guy named Zig Ziglar and it says you can have everything you want in the world if you give other people what they want or help them get what they want. And so I think a story about yourself can be useful if it's done in a way that encourages other people, if it gives them hope, if it helps them go man, I get this person. I was through that and I see that they've gone through that thing and they've made it to the other side. I can do that too, like I think that's where, um, I think that's where your story, uh, can be really powerful, right, um, but too too often people use it in, you know, to just blow themselves up and and, and you know, brag about themselves, and I'm like no like yeah it's really like it's.
Speaker 2:It's always about other people least in my perspective, you know and it's not always about you. So I know, I'm like, you're like let's brag, and I'm like oh well, yeah so you know what?
Speaker 1:let me tell you some something about brag, because I read a book years ago and the title of the book was Brag, and it was about how to talk positively about yourself as opposed to showboating. It kind of broke down the difference for business people more like the corporate, and I guess it went into companies as well but it really focused on the individual and how they can talk about themselves in the office or just you know, if the entrepreneurs, I can talk in a positive way without it seeming egotistical, and so that's how I came up with the idea. Like you know, a brag isn't necessarily a negative thing. You could put a positive spin on it. Right, I just chose to say born ready to achieve greatness, but within that is that you can tell, uh, kind of like, what you're talking about is you can tell a story, you can brag about yourself without being disgusting yeah, lack of a better word, I guess.
Speaker 2:yeah, it's like uh, a friend of mine, once said the difference between uh, an arrogant person and a confident person is that when the arrogant person leaves the room, everybody talks shit about him, whereas and a confident person is that when the arrogant person leaves the room, everybody talks shit about them, whereas when the confident person leaves the room, everybody feels better about themselves.
Speaker 1:That is true.
Speaker 2:You know, and so it's always stuck with me. And it's great because it's a little mini story. It's like I can see somebody coming in and being like I'm fucking awesome, you know, and everybody is like I can see somebody coming in and being like, oh, I'm fucking awesome, you know, and everybody's like when is this guy going to leave?
Speaker 2:Like we've all been in rooms with those people and we can like you can just kind of visual, start visualizing and creating that simulation and it and yeah, it's always stuck with me and and yeah, I think like you said, if, if you can brag in a way that builds people up and gives them hope and confidence and inspires them, that I think probably qualifies what people call a good leader.
Speaker 1:That's what it's about, and so that's what we're about, and Seth so Hacking Humans. When is it going to be released?
Speaker 2:October 15th which is a Friday. Yeah, it'll be on Amazon and Kindle, so you can get it in print or in Kindle okay, good stuff.
Speaker 1:And how can people reach you if they wanted to reach out to you?
Speaker 2:so you can hit me up through the website wwwstorifyagency. Storify is s-t-o-r. Wwwstorifyagencycom. You know there's a click to you know schedule, a call button on there and we can have a 15 minute call and a quick chat and then, for your audience, we, you know, we've got a little goodie. Uh, the first chapter of the book is available to download for free, um, and so I'm sure deshae will get you guys the, uh, the address and everything. I think it's story by agency slash brag, I think I'm trying to remember that's what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, yeah, so we'll, we'll. We'll do that and I'll. I'll post that on the Daily Brag. Instagram is at the Daily Brag, so I'll make sure that that's posted on there and we'll add it on our Instagram and hopefully get a bunch of people going on there and getting that first chapter. It's a really interesting book. It's a really good book. I definitely highly recommend that everyone goes out and read it. Anything, I didn't ask you.
Speaker 2:Seth that you'd have liked to talk about. Oh man, no, no, I mean, I got a question for you Are you entertained by the book, like, are you entertained while you're learning? I laughed a lot. Yeah, 're learning, I laughed a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I laughed a lot and you had some really good quotes at the end of each chapter as well, which I really liked. Uh, I really liked how you, how you created that the book, because you had humor in it. Um, so you're learning, but, but, but you do have humor in there, which most business books it's like.
Speaker 1:Oh, my god, I gotta get through this right, so it's like yeah, but but, but with that, I like the, the idea that, um, you know you can be entertained, uh, and at the same time you know you're learning. And I like the end, where you have the summary and then you have the, the quotes at the end. Some really great quotes too. Um, so good stuff, seth. I I appreciate it. Thank you for much, so much for for, and when I've completed it because I didn't get a chance to complete it with everything I've got going on I will let you know as well could get educated and have not just an idea or a philosophy about storytelling but like a way to actually apply it, you know, in their business, like starting you know the minute that they finished reading the book, right, oh, crap, this is how we change our emails.
Speaker 2:Crap. This is how we change our messaging. This is how we change our, our you know website, our you know ad copy. Like there's, like we can, you know, start putting this stuff into action. It's not just you know philosophizing about how wonderful storytelling is, like so yeah, I think that's that's, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Seth, thank you so much for coming on. We should do this again sometime in the future. Man, I really appreciate it. I love the interview. I really enjoy talking with you and, like I said, we should do it again. I'm going to go back to it. I'm going to check out that playlist again while I'm driving around today, because I got a bunch of stuff going on as well. But yeah, I'll complete the book. I don't know how many more chapters I have left. I got up to the story classic and then I ended there, but I don't know how much more. But I'll finish. I'll continue from there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd have to look. I wrote the book and then I've actually had to go back and and skim through it, cause I'm like it's been six or eight months since I wrote it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I just I do things and I say things and I write things and I forget about them Cause I'm like I wrote it down, it's fine, I don't have to think about it anymore. So I don't even, I can't even tell you the whole chapter listing or anything. No, that's all right. You can tell me a chapter and I'm like, oh, in that chapter I did this thing, but I need that trigger point to be able to talk about it.
Speaker 1:Oh no, that's all right. That's all right. So tell us again when it's going to be released and where they can find it before we go.
Speaker 2:October 15th on Amazon in paperback and Kindle.
Speaker 1:All right October 15th on Amazon in paperback and Kindle alright October 15th, amazon. Please get your copy of how to Hack Humans, seth. Thank you so much. I'll catch up with you alright, sounds good, man.
Speaker 2:Thank you no-transcript.