Ep-10 Always Creating Value™ Podcast for Successful Businesses –Marty Cooper Inventor of Cell Phone

June 8, 2022, Always Creating Value™ Podcast with Marty Cooper

SEASON 1, EPISODE 10, Author of CUTTING THE CORD: The Cell Phone Has Transformed HUMANITY, an Amazon #1 bestseller: Marty Cooper
Martin Cooper is an engineer, inventor, entrepreneur, and futurist. He is known as the “father of the cell phone.”

https://estowemanagement.com/marty-cooper-cutting-the-cord/

Marty led the creation of the world’s first cell phone at Motorola—and made the first public call on it. Over nearly three decades at Motorola, Cooper contributed to the development of pagers, two-way radio dispatch systems, quartz crystal manufacture, and more.

A serial entrepreneur, he and his wife, Arlene Harris, have cofounded numerous wireless technology companies. This includes Cellular Business Systems, SOS Wireless Communications, GreatCall, and ArrayComm. Cooper is currently chairman of Dyna LLC and a member of the FCC’s Technological Advisory Council. He was the first to observe the Law of Spectrum Capacity, which became known as Cooper’s Law.

In 2013, Cooper became a member of the National Academy of Engineering from whom he received the Charles Stark Draper Prize for Engineering. He was awarded the Marconi Prize “for being a wireless visionary who reshaped the concept of mobile communication.” He has been inducted into the Consumer Electronics Hall of Fame and Wireless History Foundation’s Wireless Hall of Fame. The Radio Club of America awarded him a Lifetime Achievement Award in 2010. He is a lifetime member of the IEEE, was president of its Vehicular Technology Society and received its Centennial Medal. In 2007, Time magazine named him one of the “100 Best Inventors in History.” He is a Prince of Asturias Laureate.

Marty Cooper grew up in Chicago, the son of Ukrainian immigrants. He attended Crane Technical High School and the Illinois Institute of Technology, where he is a Life Trustee. He served in the US Navy as a submarine officer during the Korean Conflict.

We Initiated the Always Creating Value™ Podcast Program in September 2021.

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Transcript

Unknown: 0:16

Welcome to always creating values podcasts. This is June 8. This is our 10th episode since are starting the podcast back in September. And we've had nothing but wonderful guests. It's a real joy to do this, this program, I've learned so much, and I get an opportunity to test out the things that I've learned, I learned as well. Today we have Marty Cooper, Marty invented the the handheld, first handheld cell phone. And we'll talk a little bit about more about who he is. But let's talk a little bit about the podcast. The podcast is designed to focus on individuals who, as part of their their career or their life are consistently focused on what can they do next. In most cases, in a positive perspective, whether it's in their businesses or personal life, we've chosen always to look at people who have been very successful so that we can help people understand that they too can can be more successful if they pay more attention to what they can do, and not what they can't do. And on a consistent on a consistent basis. I'm Mark Fowler, and I'm the CEO of stone Management Corporation in the CEO, revolutionary conversations, LLC. My business revolves around helping businesses go from where they are until where they need to be or they want to be or what they can be. And as that process works, it can be either a crisis situation or a growth situation. In most cases, our focus has always been on tapping into the potential of the individuals in the company and the team and what they've done and maybe what they've not done in order to help them go to another level of creativity on a consistent basis. And historically, it's, it's been very, very, very successful, because we're, we're tapping into the positive aspects. It's not that we don't look at the, you know, what's wrong, but we need to focus on what's right and what we can do about it. And that's part of what we talked about today and the next month, and and what the other other episodes also talked about, which is, what can we do, what can we do? What can we do about that? So I hope you'll join us in next July, July. I think it's the 13th. We are going to have a panel with three individuals from the technology arena to talk about pretty much the same thing. How do we how do we take what we've created, and and tie it to the human condition and to the future for a much more collaborative, collaborative world. My guest today is Marty Cooper. He's well known for having invented at Bell Labs. And I he'll talk about the fact that this was a big team. This was big team effort for him, and his his crew and as great stories about what it's like to be part of a team to creating all kinds of new different kinds of technology. And I'm going to first ask Marty to talk a little bit about his career, and how he he's always consistently adding value to his process and to those around him, Marty? Well, thank you for having me, Mark. It's a pleasure to be here. That's a huge request, you're just there to talk about myself, because I hate to talk about myself. I like to talk about what goes out in the world, what other people are doing. But, uh, but I am an engineer. More importantly, I'm an optimist. But my optimism is evidence based. Because I believe and and I have seen the evidence that the world is better off now than it has ever been before. Pardon, including your cell phone. For the people live longer, they're healthier, they're richer, and there's no reason to believe that the world can't continue to get better and better. And that will only happen if we all of us contribute to that. The there are lots of things going on. That seemed to be negative. That seemed to be inhibiting the growth. I think we recover sorry about that. All these things, but they take a very positive attitude, and a belief that things can get better and will get better. Another aspect of it, you want in life is objectivity. You cannot let emotion carry away, you have to look at the evidence and look at life, in real terms. A lot of people do get carried away by their emotions, as they decide what they want to believe and operate on that belief independent of whether it makes any sense or not. And that's destructive. And I've learned over the years analyzing yourself, and, and establishing goals for yourself that are realistic, and and are meaningful, instead of emotional and just aspirations is, is really important. How has that helped? How has that helped you in your own development? I mean, you know, you were the leader on that team. And for the the hand, the first handheld cell phone, cell phone. How did that help you win in that development, and a little bit about, you know, a little bit about what that's like to, to be on the cutting edge and the excitement that goes along with developing something like that? Well, it's very exciting, you know, you could use your imagination, and let your mind move freely into the future. I tell people that I know a lot about the future because I spend more time in the future than most other people do. The other people call that daydreaming. I call that using your imagination constructively. But, but I've been very fortunate that most of the luckiest thing that ever happened to me was joining Motorola, which identity was actually my second job. After I left the Navy, my first job was working for the Bell system at a company called teletype, which doesn't exist any longer. And it's a good example of people getting caught up in technology, and forgetting the fact that technology is the application of science, to create products and services that make people's lives better. So I hope you got the the important part of that one is technology is nothing without the people part of it. And yet, so much of my life is involved. I'm on a FCC committee, you know about the federal communications system manages all of the radio spectrum and communications in general in this country, they established the rules and, and are the vanities, events, segment of our society. And there are so many people on this committee that are caught up in the technology. And to them, the technology is everything. And they don't even think about the people part. And that's just when I can give you an example of that. When people talk about 5g, all of you know about 5g. We think we do ya? Well, whenever you know, it's probably wrong, where I know, you've got caught up in the emotions of the sales pitch of the carriers. Because they're really two important things for people with regard to cell phones. First of all, can you make a call wherever you are, we call that coverage? And the second thing is, can you afford it? And those are the things that we have somehow lost sight of in this with advanced technology that we have today. There are still many parts of this country that don't have coverage where people can't talk enough. Could you imagine that? You know, you cannot get an education today without having a cell phone and cut and service full time. And yet, half of our students do not have that for one reason or another. And the two reasons are they really have coverage. You go into rural areas, and there are many rural areas that have no self gotten cell phone coverage at all. And there are many students throughout the country who just can't afford the service. When cellular started in this country, we had the lowest cost cellular service in the world. Now we now have among the highest costs. And part of that is because the carriers have forgotten that the people are the people are the ones that they are serving now, they see a future called the Internet of Things where they are going to use wireless coverage, to control all kinds of things in our life. They talk about driverless cars. They talk about doctors doing operations using virtual reality. Well, I'm not going to have a doctor operate on me with virtual reality. I'll tell you that right now. But they've forgotten the fact that the important things, things like education, things like health care, those are things that have to be developed now. And people that don't have those services today, are they can I get negative benefit in the most advanced technologies. And so that's a battle that I am going through continuously now. Trying to persuade my colleagues and the FCC Advisory Council, that the Internet of Things is just fine. I believe that, but should we finish the internet of people first, and then go on to the internet of things. You know, it's kind of interesting. You know, Devon Blaine, your, your PR person who was actually our first, our first guest, suggested you, then we jumped at it, at the opportunity. And, you know, my business is all about people. You know, there's all kinds of technology, and there's systems and corporate finance, and all kinds of different things that go on in a business, manufacturing, and whatever. But you got to pay attention to the people. And when I decided to do our pre interview, I was so surprised that when we were going through it, that you were so focused on the needs of the human, I thought maybe, you know, you were very focused, like we see a lot of nowadays, people just focusing on the next bells and whistle, bell and whistle that a piece of technology can can do. from a creative perspective. You know, a lot of times, especially in manufacturing people over engineer something, they just keep over engineering and over engineering it. And oftentimes, we see a lot of software that has so many things that nobody can do, I guess it's trying to, you know, reach out to a bigger market. But how do you how do you relate to that, over engineering? As a relationship today? And what creative things might we do to to marginalize that a bit or not marginalize it, but turn it into something more more productive? Well, the cell phone is a very good example of that. Because one of the things that I have done from the beginning is, you know, I want to stay connected, and hard to stay connected if you're not part of a corporation, and I am not, no, I'm in Finland. And so I have always had the latest cell phone, which you say, Well, isn't that nice? That I'm staying connected? Well, what has happened is that I never really catch up to the, with the latest technology is because I, every time I get to do cell phone, I have to start to learn it all over again. People have forgotten this issue of technology. They talked about technology being intuitive. Technology should not be intuitive, it should be invisible. The technology ought to be there helping you allowing you to do things more effectively than you would otherwise. And the best technology is not even noticeable. It's they're helping you. But you don't have to think about it. The cell phone is just the opposite of that. They tell you well, you know, the cell phone is extension of you. Well, I happen to believe that while they say the way you're going to make this thing and etc, is if you're going to pick the apps that serve you most effectively. Oh, that's wonderful. Now you have to go and select among 2 million apps. If you have an iPhone, or or two or 3 million apps, if you've got an Android phone and decide which ones are right for you. And that's ridiculous. So I have a vision of what the future cell phone would look like. And that cell phone is your cell phone. It's bark, Fowler's cell phone, it's extension of your personality, and it's got an artificial intelligence built into it. That is constantly out. analyzing your habits, your performance, the way you would like to do things. And it will either find an app that serves you properly. Or if it doesn't have one of those 2 billion apps, it will create one. But the whole purpose of this cell phone is to make your life better, not to be more complicated, not to provide you with all kinds of options. It is to make your life more effective, and more comfortable. And so when I see the cell phone, evolving to is as a personal instrument, every person cell phone will be different today, others, it's certainly not going to be as, as you mentioned, to be early in our conversation, and this flat piece of plastic held up against a curved head in this uncomfortable position. It's going to be optimal in everything it does. And so by example of optimal and optimal cell phone that whose purpose is talking to other people is a device it's perhaps a an earring, baby, it's actually embedded under your skin. And it's a powerful computer that you talk to and you say, give me Mark Fowler, Lee phone. And this computer's gonna say to me, which Mark filer Do you want. You want the guy that used to be the chairman of the FCC, or he want this guy that's working on conversations. And I said, Give me the conversation mark. And next to get oh, we're talking. And I have to not have to think about technology, in any sense at all can be. That's the ultimate example you're talking about and much more interactive, as opposed to following their rules. You're following your rules. You got it, you got it. These engineers make things so they say oh, it's obvious. All you have to remember that in order to do this. And then they got a list of things that you got to remember. And that's totally counterintuitive. You should not have to remember everything, you should do things in a natural way, the way you would do anything else. If you think of something as it could express it in words, it will or inactions, this artificial intelligence will figure it out, and make your life easier for you. And that's what technology you ought to do. So this, the future cell phone is going to be distributed throughout your body. It's going to have sensors, it's going to be analyzing your the your metrics, things like your blood pressure, and other aspects of your health. And actually, interpreting those things. And deciding whether you may be getting suckered on and out is in future of medicine, instead of treating waiting for you to get sick, and then trying to cure you of that sickness. And why not anticipate the sickness, measure the things that are going on in your body? And when you're sick, this starts to happen, zap it and stop it. That's there is a potential doing that as well. Totally eliminating disease. To me, that's a People objective. Not one of just having another gadget. That I mean, let me let me you know, this is very expensive, and that what you're saying is very expensive. But it also ends up being multi, many multi dimensional in the sense that you're talking about health, you're talking about maybe finance, you're talking about remembering all the things you have to remember there's all different variables that fit into there. How How, how are the cell phone business connected in that way? I mean, they've tried to do it through those apps, but how would they do it in a bigger way they would have to connect with a variety of different other technologies or capabilities. Well, of course, there's an awful lot of work that has to be done in America. And one example is for education. Our whole education system today, in most places is backwards. The way people learn things. It's not being lectured to. It's by solving problems. Don't you agree with that? I would learn as you're faced with a problem you have to solve the problem. You have with have experience so if you've learned the tools that you need. And then you've got to solve these problems. Well, somebody has to create an environment where you can do that. You can't do this without being connected all the time. And that's why you have a conviction that the future of education is every student is going to be connected 24/7. And that doesn't mean that they're totally engrossed in their cell phone, but they are learning all the time. And anytime they want to get a piece of information, they can go to their cell phone. And when they go to school, they are being presented with problems that they have to solve. Somebody has to create this environment. And so there's an awful lot of work that has to be done. But of course, that's that's what we engineers are for work. We, we have to anticipate what the deeds of people and come up with solutions to those deeds. Well, let's let's flashback to Bell Labs. You know, like, like I mentioned, your, your concepts of today for the future are pretty expansive, and kind of more than cutting edge to back then that you have any idea this was on your plate for this, you know, did you have futuristic, almost science fiction, like ideas about what you are creating and what it could be? Of course, by the way, I was at Motorola, I think you were very much aware of that. My enemy at that time was was in fact, Bell Labs, and the Bell System. And because the Bell system then was a monopoly. Their principal was they work in a society, decide what our future was, and tell us what our future is going to be. And you become a marketing guy, Paramount everything else, you know that the way you do marketing is you find out what people need, and what they want and respond to those needs. Not you're not the one that tells them what they need. But getting off the track. Yes, we did have a vision of what the future was going to be. We knew that someday everybody would have a cell phone. They the story that we told was that someday when you were born, you'd be assigned a phone number. If you didn't answer the phone, you died. You if you think about it, we're almost there. Now. There are more cell phones, more mobile phones in the world today and in our people. That's true in almost every country in the world, in fact, in their emerging countries, there hardly have any word phones left anymore. And the amount of Wired phones in this country is going down, down down. So we knew that that was going to happen. Did we know that there was going to be a supercomputer in every phone? Not really, what we demonstrated the very first cell phone in New York in 1973, that there were no personal computers, there were no digital cameras, as the internet did not exist. So did we anticipate that all of those things would be embraced in the single little gadget, you could hold your hand, not a chance. But we did know that this was going to be pervasive that everybody was going to have this thing. And that our lives that we are going to be changed and changed for the better. And the reason we knew that at Motorola is that we were in the communications business. And we were making two way radios for a police department and for businesses. And the only function of these things was to make the businesses and the police departments operate more efficiently. And so when the bell system came along and said, well, the future of communications is going to be car phones. And we said all we've gone way beyond that. The phone is a an extension of the person. You only spend a few percent of your time in the car, just the phone is gonna be there, making your life better all the time. And we had a battle with the Bell System that went on for 12 years where they were promoting powerful, they never gave up on it even when they first offered the service. Their their first offering was powerful loads are made measurement life was to come up with a device that was an extension of people, people's personalities. And the very first Over the weekend was in fact, a personal handheld phone. That was a 1983. It took 10 years from the demonstration of the first cell phone to win the first commercial phone curve. And even then, at the beginning, most of the foods people bought were car foods. Yeah, I had one that was I liked it was right there. Yeah, except that you were in your car all the time. And when you were not in your car, you had no communications. So those were really primitive days where they are. Let's, let's, let's, let's tap in a little bit about, you know, we talked about your creativity. And, you know, you were talking about the, in your younger days used to read a lot and used to have some more time on your hands. And that you might have that this is where you're able to tap into that vision that you're talking about. I'm looking forward, you know, you know, for other people to be thinking about how they begin young, at a young age to begin to appreciate their own creativity. Any thoughts for you about the you can share about how you found special time and how you used it. I know, I was sick as a kid quite a bit. And I ended up reading a lot. Probably well ahead of what I said. But it was very stimulating reception for me to tell people how they should become creative or how they should conduct their lives. I know how it happened to me, my folks were serial entrepreneurs, they had a number of failures before they finally came up with a business that's that serve them well for the rest of their life. And so I spent a lot of time alone. And that's where I evolved. What I believe was vivid imagination. I think I've mentioned to you before that the reason I know so much about the future is that I spent so much time there. People say that's unrealistic, I don't think so as you as long as you stick, you realize that you do live in a real world. And at times, you have to go back and earn a living. But having an imagination is very important. But I have to tell you about that every person that is alive today is different than every other person that is alive. And not only that every person alive today is different than any person who has ever lived and ever will for the foreseeable future. So how can you presume to tell any one individual how they should conduct their lives? They should? Well, I was just tapping into what you do that might stimulate something for them. While you have to be optimistic I did, I think you haven't figured that out quite how I'm the optimist of the world. My wife has found that my wife is a much better executive than I am. Because if you think about it, if you're running a company, the one thing you do not want to have is a guy who is totally optimistic running a company, you want to have somebody that's anticipating all the bad things that can happen. While I'm not very good at this, hopefully all the good things too, you know? Well, that's right, you have to have a combination of aspiring that to make your company grow and be better, and to offer new services. But you also have to be aware that things can't go wrong. And that you have to be responsive to that. I've I have been in roles of running companies. Before, I would say that being an optimist has not served me very well. In those roles. You have to have a balance between optimism and realism. Well, one of the other things you said was, you know, a real jewel, or, excuse me, a real jewel for me. Was the conversation about what are some of the qualities that individuals need to be creative or you've experienced them and either yourself or others and I think one of them was kind of the the first first one out of the box was humility. And I think that tied to the fact that we can't know it all. We can't be the ones that you know, be all and end all if you've got a project you've you've got to embrace others. Well, that's right, there is a balance there as well. VARK. First of all, arrogance does not serve anybody well, at all. So you have to realize that there's no way any individual can know everything. But you do have to have confidence in yourself, you have to have confidence to know that when you run into a difficulty, and you always will run into difficulties, that you can learn how to overcome that difficulty, that there are tools, that there are ways of solving these things. So you have to have confidence in yourself. But there's a big difference between confidence and their arrogance. And I think utility is extraordinarily important. Of course, I'm even one thing I say is that I am humble, I'm fat, I'm more humble than anybody else. But I think humanity is more an expression of a realistic view of what life is, there is nobody that knows everything. There's nobody that can solve every problem. You just have to realize that you are more capable than you realize that you are that you should not be afraid of taking on challenges, you should not be. And I must tell you, this is the most important thing that I ever learned. When I joined Motorola. Let me start over again. One of the most important things that I ever learned was when I joined Motorola, the advice that we got from the founder of the company was, do not fear failure, reach out. And that's company practice that I've had numerous failures when I was at Motorola. But they recognized that they I had successes, that I had the ability to solve problems, and they tolerated by failures, and allowed me to proceeded had enough successes, that that I had a very successful career at Motorola. So this concept of humility, along with confidence, the balance between those two is crucial for somebody that wants to make a contribution to, to science to life, to engineering to whatever they're doing. Yeah, it's, you know, a lot of the world today is they're always looking for the answer, as opposed to, like you said, trying to figure it out yourself. You know, one of the things that I find that it's kind of a double edged sword that our friend James was talking about earlier, before the meeting was a, there's the good and the bad. And one of the things that that I think is good is that there's lots of information. On the other hand, a lot of that information can be half right. All right, not right. And we don't challenge, we just assume that information because it's in the book of internet, that, that it, that it's correct. And I can act upon it as opposed to challenging. And at the same time, being humble enough to talk to somebody else or verify, do your due diligence about something as opposed to just react? You're 100%, right, where education never ever stops you. And of course, for me, that's the most exciting thing in their life. Like, I learned stuff every day. But part of education is accepting the fact that you can be wrong. And the the importance of being able to say, you know, I didn't know that. I thought that, that I was wrong. And I've learned something new, is it's hard for people to do, you don't want to have spent a lot of time learning something and then to have to unlearn it and learn something new. It's not an easy task. And yet, it's very important in the educational process. If you want to know what one of the more simple things we've learned during COVID was to to be more like to have a zoning, you know, we're all all very comfortable meeting with people in person. And now we don't meet with people at that much we do, obviously meeting more, but it's a completely different protocol. You have to pick up things, nuances in the conversation that you didn't have to pick up. When you were when you were in a conversation, a real one right there in front of in front of each other. So we've had a call correct our learning just how we deal with people. Now, it's combination of zoom and nuts. You know, that's a very important comment. A zoom call is not the same as a person to person call, right. And anybody that thinks that the case is totally mistaken, which means you've got to start learning all over again, right? There's an interesting thing about learning, I'm sorry that I keep getting distracted. But it's your day. But it turns out that learning is not a natural thing. You have to go out of your way to learn something. And if you decide that you'd know everything, and you don't have to learn, and this is it, this is not something that I just made up. The scientists have actually done studies, if you stop learning, if you are satisfied with what you are and what you know, and you don't believe you have to learn things, you lose the ability to learn, if that's the scariest thing, and I could think of that you could get into a situation where you don't know everything, and you can't learn even if you want to, oh, that is so scary to me. I just, I just can't imagine it. And yet, many, many people go through life doing that, they get to a stage of life, where they think they are very satisfied with everything they've done. They go out and play golf, they could do their job, the same job that they've done before, with a lot of learning anything new, and they forget, they lose the ability to learn. And as I said before, that's the scariest thing I can imagine. And yet, I think most of our people in our society do this. Well, it's gotten easier and easier, because we're told, we're told a lot about what we should do, as opposed to what we could. But you know, there were six other items, and I'm going to go through them and I think humility, which is what was the first concept that came out of your, your brain and your mouth, on our pre interview. The other ones were, I'm gonna just gonna go through all six of them. open mindedness likes to learn, you're just talking about the learning, aspect, enthusiasm. good sense of humor, and the which goes along with humility. Because if you don't have a good sense of humor, when things go wrong, you know, you're you're gonna hurt yourself badly, like people. And then finally, the value of collaboration. And as I was going back through our transcript from our last meeting, you tied humility and value of collaboration sort of together. But I see humility is to falls into all every one of those. In other words, it's kind of a base, you really can't be so open minded unless you have a certain amount of humility. Okay, you know, okay, this is what I need to learn, okay, that kind of stuff. And you can't laugh at yourself. If you're humble, right? That's right. You can't, you can't. It's and you do have to laugh at yourself? You. I would imagine, I know, for me, God can't imagine how many times I've actually had to laugh at myself. And you probably too, you said that. Motorola was very benevolent as it related to the things that, that that didn't work, but, you know, keep plugging away till it works. Yeah. So of those, what would be I would imagine the value of collaboration, and how do you tap into a lot of people? And I would think that cell phone has some of that some of the reason because you can go to the cell phone to get some information, as opposed to calling somebody that might have the nuances of a particular thing that they need to know. You know, how do you help people tap into it? How do you help people tap into the collaborative need? Besides the fact that you're, you know, you're one of the, you're the lead collaborator, but you know, sometimes people don't even know what collaboration is. So you bet. Well, it'll go back to what collaboration was in the old days. And they think about, who was one of the most important collaboration, collaborators in history. It was Albert Einstein. And when Albert Einstein had an idea, he would think about it aloud. He'd write it down. And then he sent a letter to Niels Bohr or one of the other geniuses that he was talking to. And that letter would take a couple of weeks to go through the mail in Europe, and then the other guy would think about it for a while and sort of back. So that was what collaboration was 100 years ago. Today, you would I could sit here and exchange ideas as we do that, virtually instantaneously. The future of collaboration is that we can be together, solving a problem and actually working on the problem in real time. So if we're just to pick a ridiculous example, if you and I are trying to design an automobile engine, we could actually be a virtual reality, do exactly what we're doing here. But taking this engine apart, and putting it together with different parts, and trying out new new ideas, and all that could be happening instantaneously. So the idea that two people could create more than twice the productivity that a single person had. And if you think about it, that's going to solve the biggest problem in the world today, which is poverty, is there any reason why anybody should be poor when we have so much capability to produce that so the whole concept of virtual reality augmented reality, I think the future of those technologies is, in fact, improving collaboration, and eliminating the whole thought of not only poverty, but anybody having less than anybody else out there, or there is the possibility in a long range future, that money becomes valueless, that it's experience is important, but anybody can have anything they want. Because we are so productive, that we could offer that to everybody. So I think I give you an example of how an octopus thinks work. But I'm serious about that. I believe that that oh, that can happen. And if the tools for making that happen are all evident today, the virtual reality is just one of them. But collaboration is absolutely crucial. And you can't collaborate unless we have people collaborating. So long. As you keep telling me over and over again, it all comes back to the same thing about people working together. And with the right attitude. Yeah, well, the right attitude is, you know, as opposed Yeah, it's got to stay within the collaborative, collaborative. I don't want to use the word entity but dynamic or energy, you know, when it starts to be, well, now I can run off and do this, as opposed to, what can I do for the team, what kind of you know, it's part of part of the whole process, meaning making sure that you're adding value to not only the project, but to the team, as well as yourself. But a lot of people and you and I have all seen that, that people get together in a collaborative environment. And all of a sudden, they say, Well, that's an idea I really need. And I want to run off and do it on our own, which, you know, just diminishes the collaboration that that was, you know, that was built? Well, I have to tell you about, you do stimulate great ideas that the team that I had together with an extraordinary group, but I actually took over 20 people to create that very first cell phone. And every one of those engineers was smarter in their field that I was, they knew more about it. And if I wasn't humble enough to accept that I could never put that team together. Guess I had the dream. I had the vision. But I had to communicate that vision to all these guys. But without a whole bunch of people who are smarter than I was, this sample could never happen to the first place. It's almost a rule of thumb for a leader to come to grips with the fact that they have to hire people that know more about something that they than they do. And that is one of the hardest things an entrepreneur deals with is having taken care of everything and everything and everything from washing the dishes to going out and marketing, you know, that all of a sudden, in order to grow there, they've got to reach out to like you said, people who know more. I haven't figured out how Elon Musk exhibits humility, but somehow there must be there somewhere. I shake my head so it's not it's outside my it's outside my bandwidth. Me too. If I know you don't want to give advice, but if I look at these six, seven characteristics that we talked about, which was starting with humility, like you said, You've got to be able to understand that there are others that know more than you do, and that you're gonna make mistakes. And you need to be in an environment that allows mistakes, which we also talked about the open mindedness, which also comes with humility. We talked about learning, which is a bit of a humble thing as well, because you're always reaching out, you know, you're not satisfied, whatever. And you've told me, you know, last time, and I think you said some of it today that, that what keeps you going, what inspires you as you're learning? One or more things every day that the you add to your humanity, your own personal equation? Then we talked about enthusiasm, and you're obviously enthusiastically at your age, and do you mind if I tell you these people how old you are? Yeah, you can tell people that will tell you, I think you're 93. Right. Nobody would believe you. Know, you're too much fun. Are you good sense of humor, which we've talked about, like people in the valley collaboration. And for, for me, this was very special list because, you know, we've interviewed lots of people in different different from different perspectives. And this, this bundle that you've presented to us, as a great is great, and it's all human. Every one of those aspects is human is not one bit of technology and laying within this, this laundry list of seven items starting starting with humility, and they all relate to each other. And I would make sure that other list is perseverance. Okay. You have to be able to accept failure, and bounce back and go ahead. And of course, that includes all the things we talked about self confidence, the ability to learn, the optimism, the ability to look into the future. So everything is connected, and everything goes. Well, I It's I'd like to open it up to some questions. I we've got two guests here besides Ann and James de paques, emailed me and said that he was as a board member, you had to go and talk to his investors. And you mentioned to me Deepak that you've met Marty, sometime previously, hey, we'll go deeper. met many, many times in San Diego with the tag function. Of course, of course. Yeah. So when When did you guys get together in San Diego, started my semiconductor profession at the LSI logic back in the early 90s. And Marty was Rockstar just tried to come together with CDMA TDMA technology at that time, and were the the partner working with him. I'm talking about very, very early precursor to Qualcomm. Do you remember that? Yeah, of course I do. Of course, the only difference between Deepak and I is that he still has black hair. And he's still young. We did that. But I was just the kid growing up at that time, and you know, so this goes way back on. Yeah. Marty. Marty is, as you know, is a rock star. I mean, it completely changed the telecommunication industry. And so we were the geeks trying to get the silicon out. And so we were working with him as well and his team and rest is history, as they call it, and basically then periodically meet at the tie function. I mean, I'm still in Orange County. And but I used to see in San Diego Tigers is a group of that gets together and promotes entrepreneurism. It started out being mostly Indians, East Indians. It is hopefully a very general group. It is. And they tried to teach among other things, youngsters how to become entrepreneurs. Of course, the only way to do that is to let them be entrepreneurs and practices. So it's another example of, of the future of education and not to lectures, but actually practicing it, right? Yes, absolutely. As a matter of fact, I have two young sons, they're going through the same thing. We say, Yeah, mom and dad will pay for your NBN. And they obviously over the years hadn't seen us. And so they've decided to start their own business, you know, the eldest one in biotech, the younger one in virtual reality, augmented reality. So Jerry, you're, you're, you're being very quiet, there must be something we've said that you don't agree with. Who's uh, we got we got Jerry word. Oh, Jerry Warren. You know, I don't I'm not so sure we should let him talk. Okay, he's a CPA and an economist. So we're, he's dangerous. I think I'm very dangerous. I'm a cranky economist, I love your presentation, I'm delighted to be able to listen to you I, I share most of your values. And there's not much I can add to this other than to support it. I'm a firm believer in entrepreneurship and risk taking. And I'm coming from the place that basically says, You don't learn a whole lot from your successes you learned from your failures. So I'm, I'm, I'm delighted where you've taken this technology, and I don't want to create too much of a drama, but I've read some things about forward looking people that have that have questioned the future of our society because of the locked lack of control of this of this technology. But that's to dig too deep rest here, I think. Yeah. Well, you know, people have a tendency to think about the good old days. And the fact is that the good old days weren't all that good. This is true. And I have read a book out called the fewer richer greeter by an economist, like you, Jerry Davis, Lauren Siegel. And his thesis is that we are better off now in every respect. And that will continue to happen that a population growth will slow down and actually go in the opposite direction. But the people will be richer in the future, as we will figure out how to have a sustainable society of the future as things are getting better. Or I can't think of a book that expresses my optimism better. Great. Jerry, do you have a question for for Martin? No, I really don't. I'm just delighted to be able to hear his insights and see them. I'm a cranky tax accountant. And I really don't know how I can bring much to the table on this one, other than to say I really am delighted to have the opportunity here. You hear you speak. Yeah. What about James? Alright, let's do an first because James will have a laundry. He already had questions before we started this. And how about you? You're not, you're gonna be unmuted here. Hi, Marty. I am an early adapter. I love technology. I love everything about it. And I totally appreciate what you're saying. And I'm disappointed that the marriage rate has not improved. And in eons since navigation systems were put on cars and phones, and that all has to do with technology. Because that had to be the biggest argument we ever had. This is where you were supposed to turn left. No, this is where you're supposed to be. And that is completely overcome. But what's interesting to me is I'm questioning whether we're getting smarter. And that's my question to you today. You took a hike in the real world. I boxed with my virtual headset. Before this call that was my workout. So we each had an exercise in a different world. And I was doing it virtually. But when I was young, and you as well, we watched only three telephone, television stations. We all watch the same thing. We all had the same news, and now we have an abundance. And yet I don't feel as though people are learning anything. It appears that the way the knowledge is being dispensed is you're only getting more of what you think instead of being able to be provoked to think remember that show point counterpoint. That always amazed me that I could hear the other point of view. With your optimism. Can you help me understand how that can be improved? Well, that's That's it very hard question because it is very easy, as I mentioned before, to be complacent, to take the easy road, and just kind of follow where people are leading you and, and not learn. So you have to develop an attitude of being unhappy of being aware of the fact of how dumb you are, and what have you learned things. But if they just think about, when you have those three stations, you didn't have much choice. So we do two or three, a few occasions, my wife and I sit down to watch television, we have Wi Fi the last time I looked at my spark TV, there were at least 10 different channels, we look at each of which has 1000s of selections of what to do. Well, if you think it's easy to do that. You're a lot smarter than I am. So we are being challenged all the time, if we allow ourselves to be challenged. And I must say that it's very easy to get into complacency and just float. And one of the easy things you could do is just turn the TV on and watch whatever pops up. And there are people that do that. And they are living in a virtual world all the time. And I agree with you. They are not growing, they are moving backwards and blurting stuff. So I would suggest that everybody is adapting to the modern world properly. I think our educational system is at least the old part of it is archaic. The system of giving lectures occurred a couple of 100 years ago, it was started by the, the whoever the head of Austria was, and his only purpose was to create soldiers to who would follow orders so that he could maintain the security of his country. And somehow for 200 years, we've maintained the same thing. When I was a kid in Canada, and we started out the day singing God save the king. And which tells you how old I was, by the way. I know how old Queen Elizabeth is. And then we moved to the states and things didn't change. We just saying the pledge of allegiance or God bless America. No, it wasn't it was the Star Spangled Banner. So they, their educational system of giving people electors is passe. Fortunately, there are a lot of schools now that are taking the high road, as they are getting people to engage with each other, as they are solving problems. They are challenging children as they are letting them learn by themselves all day long. Because if they run into a problem, they do it we do somebody's use the word that they don't know you look it up. You can't do that unless you have full time connection to the internet. So I don't know how I got off on this tangent. But we'll hop back to my optimism. Does it involve everybody but it should. Then part of that is our educational system. And part of the problem there as well. We got teachers unions, and but we're not going to get into the politics at this moment. Change is important. And anything in our society that mitigates change, that keeps people in a rut is bad. And change is painful. But very important to you know, grow your mind without going through those things. Well, one thing came to my mind. About 15 minutes back and we're talking about how do you tap it tap into your your creativity or force yourself to be looking at things Buckminster Fuller was supposed to have ever said I read it somewhere. Every time he went to an airport or was coming in or is going out. He goes to the magazine rack. And he would always suppose like pick the top right hand corner. It didn't matter what magazine it was, but he felt that he would read it from cover to cover. And that was one of the ways that stimulated him to come up with all kinds of different ideas. And another topic because you know a might have been reading an art magazine on nursing or medical or other medical or engineering or automobiles, it didn't really matter to him all it mattered was that he embarrassed embrace something that was completely new to him. And it gave him the opportunity to, to practice and relate to the other things that he was doing. Using because among the publications that I read as the economist, and it's very easy to start to pick up the economist, for a given week, and just start going through every page. And of course, when you do that, you spend hours and hours. And it's always interesting. But you realize that you are, you're not living in the real world when you do that. But I learned of all kinds of stuff that I would never be exposed to otherwise so severely that, once again, you have to plan to balance. My solution to their problems is called the cake table of contents. I know look at the table of contents, you can pick and choose, pick and choose as I do that, with the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times. I hope I'm still learning all the time. But I don't want to I don't want to leave this for almost an hour, one minute or two minutes over. But I would like to give James at least two questions with us, because he'll he'll hurt us later, because he didn't get a chance to answer questions. James, thank you, Mark, I really appreciate it. You know, Marty, honestly, I did have a whole bunch of questions. And I was, it really got me thinking about how much the cellphone has impacted my life. And I don't want to sound like somebody who's going to start on a big story. But I just there, there was at least five ways in which I could see that, that this invention just totally changed the way I live. And, and that's, but the fact is, I came in mainly obsessed with all the negative ways. And, and we had a very brief conversation before it started, I don't even think you're speaking directly to me, but it totally elevated my consciousness around this idea and took me from kind of having a negative outlook to a positive outlook. And so now I'm sort of blank on the whole issue, which I'm very grateful for, because I think I was falling into that comfortable cynicism, which allows you to not have to think anymore. And you've, you know, activated me to start thinking differently about it, which is going to improve the plasticity of my brain, I'm pretty sure. James, I have to tell you, first of all, people were skeptics are very important in our culture, for every 100 ideas, of maybe one of them is worth pursuing, who is going to shut down the other 90 days. So somebody's gonna be skeptical. And you, you should not change your attitude. But just think about cell phones, in the sense of we use it today, which is really the smartphone is only 15 or 20 years old, that's half a generation, it's going to take generations to really understand how this tool should really be used and to evolve it, including getting good artificial intelligence, and all the things we talked about earlier. So we're just in the early days, and yes, there are gonna be things that we're doing wrong. Things that are, you know, how else can we get to improve if we don't make mistakes? So we got a long ways to go. And I don't suggest that the cell phone is by any means perfect today. In fact, far from it. I think we engineers have a lot to do to to make the cell phone really useful, and to solve all the problems of the world today. And boy, do we know how many problems we got bright talk about what's going on to the Ukraine, the poverty in in places like India and Africa, India, especially going to pick on you the fact that here you got a country of super contrast, right? The most advanced technologies that are being pursued in India and the poorest people are living by contrast, and we ought to be working on so thank God for the skeptics don't change. That's kind of you but I would like to close by saying that it really has created a paradigm shift, you know, and in our or culture and, and that there's always reactions against any kind of paradigm shift. And usually they take a lot longer to have an impact and the cellphone, it really was, you know, I used to work in advertising and I got to work with a GT mobile net account. And I remember, you know, having to learn about packet data, and all that, you know, PDA and CDMA and all that stuff. That was a convergent technologies trying to, you know, figure out who's the beta and who's the VHS. And, you know, it helped me feed my kids and make a living and do all kinds of things, you know, the, this this device, and just, and I was just a marketing person, but I do remember, I got to get involved with the cell phone before everybody had one. There was a time when our marketing revolved around convincing people that this was a device you needed to have, which now is, is would be ridiculous. You know, people want it way before their way out ahead of you as far as their desire for the device. But there was a time when people didn't know how bad they, they wanted this. And so it was a lot of fun. Getting involved in the early days, I think I had one of the first people who decided that they needed cell phones were real estate people. And it's very easy to understand why. Because a real estate person could only do two things, they could be showing a home to somebody, or they could be at their office when somebody called looking for a new home. And so if a cell phone allowed them to do both at the same time, doubled their productivity. So they were the first people who really latched on to the software as a tool. The ones who were the worst was were lawyers. Because they were gonna you know, I don't know if none of you are lawyers, right. So we could insult lawyers. But lawyers tend to be arrogant because they know all everything about the law, and none of the rest of us do. And the lawyers that say we don't need cell phones, or the cell phone will never be popular device for society. So it took it took a while. But that is the most important thing, cell phones, do they improve all of our productivity and our safety, and lots of other things. So I don't have to sell that to this group. I could tell You're all nodding your head, except I Jerry's not because we know about codons. They're all very numbers oriented. Don't really have any imagination, right? That's absolutely true that we're very, very linear. Between center directors do we hit a wall? That's pretty much all I do this prove that Jerry has got a great setting over and he's open minded. And humble, on top of all of what, what Jerry didn't tell you was that he's a fairly substantial part of his practices, business management, and the man is had some really famous people he's, he's he's very humble about the fact that his client bases as celebrity oriented. He's always a genius in his own right. So well, it's a pleasure. Pleasure. Thanks. Thank you. Okay, Deepak did you want to do a question? No, I mean, this point what what gets you all excited about the world in general? Not technology. There's this was I'm sorry, do you see what gets me? Yeah, gets you excited about what related issues good or bad, but not not technology specifically, but just you know, I, I have one great grandchild, and two more on the way. So I want you to know that family is a huge issue is the if you haven't figured it out now it's people in general. I really do believe that. Everybody that I beat has something to teach me. I don't have to like them all. But believe it or not, I tend to like almost everybody. You know, I have to make an exception for for James, but you know, anybody that's got long hair like that can't be normal. Other Other than that, I really like all of you guys. So it's very easy for me to be positive. Yes. I can't do that as well. Yeah. Did you find that, you know, passing values, your values right? To two generations down three generations down? Both come easy based on your interaction with your family members. You see, you see that happening? Well, you know, I can't I just can't tell that because because if you haven't figured out by now I really don't like to give advice, because I don't know if I'm better than other people. But the one of the my favorite things to do is to talk to children's classes. In fact, I just did that. Last week, I was invited to high school and talk to a bunch of people, most of whom were Latinos, in high school here in San Diego. And it's a thrill to see these kids, they're listening, and asking good questions. And the, I've only mentioned Latinos, because somehow or other in their culture, they tend to be a little shy. But so I talked for about an hour, trying to get them stimulated. And finally we ended up editing this thing. And they invited everybody to come up and talk to me personally. And 100% of these kids came dashing up. And everyone wanted to talk and get again, they were all excited there was more important than anything I said, during that previous hour. So I really do enjoy, I love children, and I enjoy interacting with them. And I have a few what do you what do you call somebody who is follower? Count anyway, I have a few youngsters that I work with on a continuing basis. And maybe they will learn something new. But I have to tell you that they teach me more than than I teach them. And by the way, that's true of this whole session. You guys are unaware of the fact that a lot of things that we did talked about in a way I express myself were different than I have ever done before. Because each of you stimulated that and I'm grateful for that. And to you Mark for inviting me to come. Oh, thanks, Marty. And a matter of fact, you are in the future because that's one of the questions we always ask people at the end of these is that was there something about the particular interaction that that stimulated, you are interested you are you know, whatever, and so you do live in the future. My question already. Thank you very much. My pleasure.