Ep-11 Always Creating Value™ Podcast for Successful Businesses –Panel Discussion on A.I.

Ep-11 Always Creating Value™ Podcast for Successful Businesses –Panel on AI including Marty Cooper, David Cieslak, and Lon Safko

Join us July 13th! Digital Experts in IT and AI Discuss: Connecting the Digital to Human Needs Not the Other Way Around.

Recently I have interviewed 3 prominent individuals In the Computer, IT, AI worlds.  David Cieslak, Lon Safko and Marty Cooper.  Each were amazing to talk with and each told a story of their pioneering journeys of where they were to where they wanted to be and where they arrived.  It was fascinating. Please see our Always Creating Value™ Podcast page to watch full episodes, excerpts, and find out more about past and upcoming guests, etc.

The one thing that came home for me was that with all the success technology has had and all the changes and benefits that we have had, there seemed to be the need for a bit more humanity in the equation.  We all know about the questions regarding our IT magnets and the to-be explored challenges they and the public are experiencing.  But I would think that this is the tip of iceberg and humans might have a say in it—hopefully.

For our July 2022 podcast, I have asked David, Marty and Lon to explore with me how we might all tap into a creating value mode to see what we might, together, explore as to what we can do to help maximize, for all. the promise of technology.  Let’s let a little creativity and humanity lead as opposed to just doing it the way we have always done and that is to Debate. Maybe:

Look not so much for what is wrong but what can and should be!

Join us for this free-flowing experience.  We will all learn something.

For a little more introduction to our panelists, please see a snippet from each of their previous podcasts. Hope you join us.

More info: https://estowemanagement.com/always-creating-value-podcast/

Join us for Always Creating Value™ Podcast for Successful Businesses

In business, for whatever we are doing, our intent is to be creating value in many ways.  To be successful, a business needs to bring something important to customers/clients, team members and the community.  In fact, the most successful businesses have a clear value proposition for their stakeholders and their markets.

I have been building and rebuilding business for over 35 years.  These projects could be growth oriented on their own, crisis management or turnaround situations or businesses needing to lay foundations for the next stages of their growth.

Join us the 2nd Wednesday every month  @ 11:00 am – 12:00 pm (PDT)

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Guests

Martin Cooper is an engineer, inventor, entrepreneur, and futurist. He is known as the “father of the cell phone.”

Lon Safko is a serial innovator, inventor, bestselling author, speaker, trainer, consultant. He has been on the ground floor and cutting edge of the IT and Computer Industries for over 25 years.

David Cieslak is Chief Cloud Officer and EVP with RKL eSolutions, a leading business process automation consulting firm with offices across the US.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:15

Good morning. This is Mark Fowler, and I'm the host for the always creating value podcast. And today we have a panel. You know, we started out in September last year and interviewing individuals about how they create value in their, in their careers in their businesses in their, in their personal life. And we decided to bring back three of our three of our previous podcasts, individuals, Lon Safco, who was involved in creating the first computer that saved a person's life. Marty Cooper, who is the father of the handheld cell phone, and David C. Slack, who has been involved with the accounting profession nationally and locally in California for many, many, many years. He's He's considered the go to person about computers and how they work for clients and CPAs. And he has a program called the Inspector Gadget that, that my California CPA committee, I have every December to come in and talk about what's new. And he's fabulous. And as many of you who have attended our podcast know, this is about creating value. And this is interesting, because we've always had an individual, but we're looking at a panel and how they can look at, in particular how humans can be more involved in our computer world, in the technology world and on many aspects of our technology world as well. We're looking forward to doing more of these panels as time goes on. We're thinking about reaching back to some of the other people that we've had historically, and also reaching forward to maybe even have people who are involved in our previous podcast. This podcast program began in developing several years ago, and I wanted to start acknowledging all the work that that we had done, or I had done in developing companies and rebuilding companies and being a business architect, and how much of that much of it happened because of our focus. And our clients focus on consistently creating value. And getting a habit of consistently creating value in order to be able to not only worry, not have to wait to worry about a problem coming but be consistently be thinking about the future looking at the horizon and how you can get beyond the horizon, as you are constantly looking at how you can add more value to yourself and others. So let's start. Let's meet Lon and let's meet David and let's meet Marty, thank you very much look forward to your feedback. Go ahead, Lon, if you can kind of just drift into it. Let's have a few bars and then we can you know, it's an ambiguous thing. I know that like I said, for me, I was always focused on integrating the human with the new technology. But I wouldn't consider myself a big expert in that. And you've designed things that really did help people. So I really liked the topic. I thought it was interesting because too often, we start with technology, we force it upon humans, and we keep our fingers crossed that it's something that they like. And often it's not I mean, the VCR didn't warm up to consumers for quite a while. I mean, I remember I had a VCR. Five years later, it was still flashing 12. So putting those locks on your lawn, so that's okay. So looking at it in reverse, I think is a great idea. And the reason I'm particularly excited about it is the first major company that I built, I've built 14 companies, most of them were big failures, a couple of more big successes was I invented the first computer to save the human life. I didn't even realize that at the time. I just was seeing what I could do with computers. And I taught it to speak I taught the lesson I taught. It was the world's first environmental control. First Virtual Reality operating system and everything. All those firsts were because I was working with disabled people. First electronic Users Guide apple and I got into the biggest fight over that. I said it should be electronics. Everybody can use it. It's easier for non disabled, and people who don't have either the use of their arms and don't have arms can't read one of your heavy spiral bound users guides and apple and C insisted that I created a paper User's Guide, or they weren't, let me use the logo and they weren't going to support me. So I paid I don't know,$20,000 to a marketing company just to develop an entire guide, according to Apple specifications. Okay, and now, as you know, everybody uses electronic user guides in the form of a PDF. So I mean, that's just one example of you. I had to build the technology to bridge the physical disabilities and physical limitations of my customers. So my entire career half first half of my career was focused on how do you create technology that humans need and have to have you designed it around the human and not the other way around? My question would be How did you start? I mean, David, can, Marty, I don't want you to feel bad. We did start without you for a bit. And we did talk quite a bit about you. Yeah, we were go under my ears were burning. That's true. That should have Marty, you've not met either of these two gentlemen. You know, and and, you know, James, from our previous endeavors, Lon Safco. From, from a computer perspective, has been involved with 14 computer companies that he invented. He started and invented technology in particular that I'm familiar with is the technology related to talking and working with a computer from the human perspective. He can explain you know, a bit more but we were we were dialoguing before you got on about the some of the work that he's done with people who are quadriplegic hands, they their hands don't work their voices do, but they're able to, to, you know, to live a life. David C. Slack is an individual who's the world's very well known in the in the accounting profession nationwide, and has done a lot of computer development, helping Collins working with the AICPA. He, he's very kind to do a hour hour and a half presentation every year for us called Inspector Gadget, which he talks about all the technology about how it relates to clients, as well as CPA firms. And you know, you're famous for being the father of the cell phone. And we'd like today to talk about how the human interaction is essential in being able to move forward and being more effective and which is going to try to stay away from you know, all the big IT problems that are going on and think, think outside the box and think from a creative perspective about, you know, what, what can we suggest? Or what can we do, in helping humans be a lot more in control of, of what they get what they receive. I remember you saying an area, your interview was that, you know, here's here's a phone, it's flattened and doesn't miss, it doesn't connect to my head. So I'm gonna go back to lawn and lawn if you can back up a little bit and talk about where you came from, from the human perspective and in your technology, and that needs definition. And we'll, we'll go around, go around the room a bit. So okay, thank you. Yeah, cool. Yeah, my early part of my career, I was working with computers back in the 70s, before anybody even knew what to do with them. And I thought, wouldn't it be cool if I could teach it to speak? So I wrote some I taught myself how to program I took a couple of college courses, I taught it to speak. And then I thought, wouldn't it be really awesome if I taught it to listen? Well, I took another several years, four or five years. But I finally got it to the point where it would listen. And I didn't realize that I created the world's first chatbot, where I just would have a conversation using my voice and it would know who I was. And it was a little bit of AI built into it. Also, I didn't know that at the time, you would remember who was talking to so it was kind of cool. It was good parlor trick. And then I connected the house to it environmental control. And it turned out to be the first computer controlled environmental control system ever. So at that point, somebody came to me says, Well, did you ever think of working with the disabled and never crossed my mind? But they said a quadriplegic can't turn on a light or lock a door or change a television channel or answer a phone or type a letter. So I worked with a physically disabled person, and it actually saved his life. And NBC did a story about it. And that ended up on the satellite. And next thing I know, my office phone rang and my secretary says, take this call and it was John Sculley, CEO of Apple and they flew me to Cupertino and I built my company and ran it for 15 years, and actually helped build the entire Assistive Technology Industry, which is valued at about $15.3 billion. And pretty much all the technology that you see today for physically disabled I developed in the early 80s through the mid 90s. And your focus on that was looking for looking for a knee and looking for, you know, something that would help humans or it was just an evolutionary thing for you. Yeah, the first when I first started out, it was just for fun. What What can I make a computer do you know what keep pushing the envelope keep pushing the limits. And it was literally it was for fun. But then when I had my purpose, my goal and I built my company to to help physically disabled especially quadriplegics. Matter of fact, the last person I personally worked with was Christopher Reeve Superman, after his accident. And seeing all of their physical limitations, they couldn't do anything they've never used, the computer can't use, the phone can't change, a channel can't turn on a light. So I looked at the humans and studied what their needs, and what their limited abilities were, and then bridge the gap between the disabled, and the computer technology. And that's how I got into the Smithsonian. By the way, David Allison, who is the director of the American Museum of Museum of American History, said that him and his staff had done extensive research, and they felt that I had made more of a contribution to the human computer interface, as did anyone. So they have 18 of my inventions and 30,000. To my professional records. A lot. I'm a little suspicious of your comment that you had no purpose in studying this issue of computers speaking, and listening. Because you must have had some thought in the back of your mind and how this could be useful. You sound like too much too practical guy. Do they just for the fun of it? I don't know if you've heard my comments. I don't think technology has any value at all, unless there is a human experience. And well. Call me on that. I like that. Honestly, in the beginning, I just thought it would be fun. I didn't know I mean, a computer speaking to you, rather than typing it out reading it on the screen, that was the state of the art for nearly a half a decade, even after I did it. I thought it was a much more effective way to interface with computer technology. So talking to it and hearing it in human speech, that that was very effective. But I didn't know what how to apply it at that point. So a precursor to you know what we today think of it in terms of Siri or Amazon, Alexa, all that natural language processing that AI layer at all. That's, that's fabulous. Yeah, that was the groundwork and I worked with Apple and apple and I worked really close, they had come out with something on the Macintosh called Macintosh because they saw what I was doing. And then they did it. But then they dropped it. And then I had a petition for a year and a half to put Macintosh back into the Macintosh. And I did a lot of the design work on it to actually make it sound better. And then eventually that caught on, and then it started going mainstream. And once things go mainstream, it then gets socially accepted. But it from the time that I did it to the time it was mainstream 30 years. So Marty, can we go back to what you're talking about the that was an IT and in intellectual property, AI or whatever you're talking about technology in general that needs to have some kind of important need to the to the human or to the user? Well, there's no question in my mind, that's the case. And I see so many examples of people getting caught up in the coolness, if there is such a word of their technology, and they forget that there's got to be a purpose. And I suppose I could contradict myself by saying that the entire industries have been created starting out with games. You know, if you think about it, the the whole personal computer industry who really started with the game of punk, you guys are all too young to remember punk rock. This was a totally mindless game. But on the other hand, it did teach people how to interact with a screen. And the next thing you know, we graduated the Pac Man and then the personal computer came. So there is something to be said for games as being the initiating stimulus. But there are just too many you know, I serve on an FCC The Advisory Council, and people are so caught up in the idea of six g and terahertz spectrum, none of which by itself as any human value at all. It'll be 10 years before we even have applications. And yet there are really serious problems that we should be addressing today with wireless, and like the digital divide, healthcare, all of those kinds of things. So I didn't mean to pick I do about the, your feelings at the beginning. But we are over emphasizing technology for the sake of technology. And I have a post on a Marty, I think that was well said. And I would just kind of add, I think the conversation often starts with technology. You know, and I've always looked at technology as a tool tool in the toolbox. But it's what you do with it. And I think some of the most exciting days in technology are when you're no longer talking about the technology itself and said, you're talking about what it's solving for, what it's being applied to how it's benefiting us. And so while it's in I think about just any technologies over time, we may start and I think you just mentioned, you know, 60, but even where we're at with 5g, you know, any of these point technologies early on, it's you know, I think everybody, you know, tends to go a bit crazy on, on just talking about the technology, but it's the practical application that really, in when it almost kind of fades away, because we look at the utility of it, the the benefit of it, and and you know, not really looking under the hood anymore, and thinking about what's the actual underlying technology, I think that is some of the most exciting time is when we finally get to that point, because everybody always says I said, likes to talk about the technology, I like to talk about the practical problems we're solving with a great observation. Absolutely. When the technology disappears from the conversation, it's successful. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the things that, you know, I used to do a lot of work in the manufacturing area. And one of the things that happens, so many things got over engineered, over engineered to the point where people didn't know they wanted to do what they wanted to do, and they're sort of enforced. Or the next technology comes in, they have to, they're forced to almost go to where the new technology wants them to go, as opposed to, you know, what they can actually appreciate and use any thoughts about that? Because we do get excited, we invented something and now we want it to be better, right? It's always like, Well, wait till the next version to technology. Yeah, that's Microsoft Word. I mean, there it is. Well, I want to do is type it down letter. I was totally fine with PFS, right. You know, you have been around for a while, yes. Right. And then I know, my hair color doesn't suggest that. But so, but then you look at things like WordPerfect, and what a just a schoolyard beat down that product was, and, and just in thank goodness, you know, word came along and kind of saved us all. But you're right, I think at the end of the day, it's just you know, solving for, and I wanted to kind of, you know, then go one step further what I was just saying a moment ago, I think, you know, it's one thing to say we've got technologies, you know, practical applications, I think it really all comes together and really sings, when you've, you know, you're now able to create an ecosystem around it. And so I look at the value of ecosystems, and I think of, you know, clearly the iPhone wasn't the first you know, cellular phone, but you look at what iOS has done. And you know, how that is just so multifaceted. The it's the end and delightful user experience, really taking all of that technology, almost kind of making it, you know, invisible. And it's in so people, you know, when they experience, you know, an iPhone or an Android device, it's all about you know, what am I doing with this everything's from you know, cameras to clocks and timers to mean it's, it's, it's, it's a, you know, an incredibly powerful computer in our pocket. But it's, you know, all sorts of things that, you know, we rely on it for now with, you know, throughout the day. And to me, it's the ecosystem that you know, really then you know, everybody falls in love with and that's where they start to really experience the value. I picked up on my turn. You guys all had the experience with your iPhone, like you can't do something that you shouldn't be obvious like answer the call. I do I just have had that experience at least a half a dozen times over the past few months. And it's especially embarrassing to me. People, I can't work by cell phone. Even even Apple's got a way to go. And I'm delighted to be back competition. So that hopefully, we can improve the human experience with cell phones. And I still named say that cell phones are in their present form or suboptimal? Because we're trying to create one answer to a hugely complex cohort of people. Every person that exists today is different than every other person, including the historical and for the foreseeable future. And the idea that one cell phone is going to solve a problem for everybody, to me is ludicrous. And we need a little more personalization. And the idea that apps are the answer to personalization, I think is equally ludicrous. Because it's our thing, we're going to take the simple problem, and all you have to do is select among 2 million apps, find the right one for you. So got a ways to go. To give you a credit, David, I do agree with you that look against the whole ecosystem, instead of just building a piece of hardware is part of the answer. So it's death by 1000 little apps, isn't it? Yeah, it sure feels that way. And one of the earlier examples, I think, was when we went from the C prompt to the Macintosh. I mean, if you had a Windows machine, you really had to know how to install drivers. And you had to have a screwdriver in your pocket so that you can put in all of the different daughter boards in the back. And so you had to be a bit of a technician. But then when the Macintosh came along, it was all in one box, you plugged it in, like Job said, it's an appliance, you put in toasts, and it could put in bread and burns it and make toast. So I think that I think that does happen through the lifespan of a technology. But yeah, Macintosh, there's a billion different applications that you can put in it. And mine doesn't look anything like anybody else's. So yeah, completely agree. It's overwhelming, and it has to be personalized. But I think this is where AI now when you get a chance to introduce that, and you know, it's been around for a long time, but I think it's making its presence, you know, more and more felt, you know, more recently, you know, that's where it has that opportunity to say, Great, now I've got, you know, apps, I've got, you know, a platform, you know, technology, you know, device, you know, how can I be assistive, you know, to the end user, looking at what they're doing, how they're doing it where they are, you know, would you? And and I think you know, this is where the kind of the hand to hand combat is going on right now. Is you know, how much of that is invasive? How much of that is even potentially intrusive? You know, in becoming a net negative. And I think rightfully, there's a lot of concern that, you know, you know, what is my device doing? What's at listening to what's, uh, you know, wait a minute, I didn't sign up for this. It feels like I've, you know, it's being monitored. And we just created the Hal 9000 Here, potentially. And again, going back and giving us some some good historical references. But it what point you know, and that's the kind of the, the yin and the yang or the double, it's the two sides of the sword, you know, is really maximizing utility and at the same time, doing so in a way that doesn't compromise. You know, the very end users we're trying to serve. You know, why how God has name? I do not. I was friends with Marilyn Clark. Okay, oddly enough. And she told me the secret before she passed before Arthur passed. He was in Sri Lanka. And he was very ill. How, if you take the letters and you're moving forward one, it spells IBM. Oh my word. I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that. My favorite phrase over all these years now great, and everybody recognizes that. Wow, that's that's a great that's a great factoid. Thanks for sharing. Intrusive is absolutely right. I given my daughter a little box from Amazon. If I say she's gonna wake up and start talking, and she's afraid to plug it in, she's afraid is gonna listen. And I said, Well, who cares? It's not gonna listen, you have to give it the awake word. My granddaughter's came over this past weekend and they were doing tick tock and some other stuff. And she says, you know, your phone, even if it's shut off, it still listens. I said, That's not possible. So She shut her phone off, set it down on the table, and I said, Make something up. I said, Let's pretend we're gonna go on vacation. He's in Mexico. So she say, Oh, I love Mexico, I would love to go to a resort in Mexico, I'm gonna buy a bathing suit and go to Mexico to turn your phone back on. And all of a sudden, all the ads were about resorts and bathing suits in Mexico. And the phone's off. Yep. Wow. Whoa, how could that be possible? That's what I've said. And I haven't been able to find anything online or anybody has experienced, but I watched it. Well, and, and I've done that same kind of experiment, you know, said, You know, I'd like to learn more about Subaru. I've heard that's a good brand and insurance. And of course, my phone's right here, and I'm going to be tortured this afternoon by it. But you know, you do we get all this in place advertising. And you're going okay, I don't know that I signed up for this. And, and I don't think there's enough ability for end users to really, you know, opt in opt out gate, you know, some of that, you know, in your sidebar conversations shouldn't turn into just a relentless, you know, marketing campaign that, you know, ultimately turns against damn cell phone technology. Who else? I'd really like to talk to whoever came up with that idea. Marty, you got anything? You guys are trying to get even I could tell. You knew it was coming. Set up? Well, Marty, why don't you take a little time, you know, you and I've talked a couple of times, want to talk a little bit about how you did come up with the cell phone, oh, handheld, the handheld, the actual, as opposed to the, you know, there was always a cell phone somewhere in the car or whatever, whatever. So Well, I do the same thing that all the rescue did I just an observer, I was in the to a radio business. And I discovered that, first of all, that people couldn't run their businesses without at the game of the communicate. And then we discovered that when we finally got to the point, we could build a two way radio you can hold in your hand. That's exactly what people did. It sounds kind of ridiculous. But you know, we're trying to build a product that serves everybody. And so we made a holster that you could put on your belt and keep yourself out there. And I'd walk through the airport and every person with a Motorola two way radio, have it in their hands. If there was, there was a message they're coming up with the handheld cell phone, especially when the Bell System was telling us first of all, that nobody needs a handheld phone is really not going to be very important. It's powerful and will serve that purpose. And we are going to build all the curves. So if you needed a stimulus, that was our stimulus, but the market was obvious to us, and not to anybody else. I had people tell me, Marty, we understand that a few you techies will want to talk out of portable phone. But I had a guy from London say, well, we've done a market study. And our observation of a total market in London is 12,000. Handheld cell phones. And of course they were wrong. Or narrow, more cell phones or handheld cell phones in the world today than there are people. And as I guess, we started out with Mark was pulling my chain which people have a tendency to do that the cell phone is early stages. We're still learning how to cope with it in so many different ways. Social media, in some ways has become a central other ways. It's gotten totally out of hand. There are so many doom and gloom errs about social media. I think it's it's a we're in the game stage. We got to grow out of it and learn how to do social media in a constructive way and eliminate fake fake news and all these destructive kinds of things. Evolution is there is there you know one of the questions that evolved out of the work on my talking to you guys and you know from previous interviews, was you know, does technology drive civilization or does Seville civilization drive technology? And you know, where you know, where are we on that if if If so many things are happening. I mean, we're is there at some point in time that we need to say, where do we step in? Where do we where do we have a vote? Years ago, I wrote a book called in the absence of sacred and it's, it's a 1991 book, it's talks about technology and kind of compares technology to the native the native cultures and looks at different, different dynamics. And now the question was, you know, are we are we serving the human? You know, are we really paying attention to that interactive that evolutionary or environmental consideration that you talked about? Are we really paying attention to that? And how do you go about doing that? I do it on an individual basis, do it on a global basis? How do you step in? Well, and you know, and I would, I think that's, uh, you know, that's the challenge, I think you've done a great job of just kind of a numerating that, but I think the answer is both. I mean, so, you know, was technology driving, you know, humanity's humanity driving technology? And, you know, so I kind of worry or worry, you know, my concerns would be, you know, underneath the surface of that, you know, what are the motives of, you know, the organizations that are, you know, ultimately, you know, mobilizing this technology, and I think that's probably everybody's, you know, kind of, you know, the concern is, you know, what lies beneath, you know, what, what maybe is hidden from view. So, you think about social media, you know, and I think there's, you know, tremendous of, you know, upsides to it, but I think, you know, as a society, we're also seeing, you know, kind of how that's, you know, weaponized isn't maybe the right word, but you know, how it can become, you know, a net negative, as well. So, you know, my, my concern always is, you know, how do you leverage a tool, you know, you know, for good, and not necessarily, ultimately have that something that's, you know, just what, what's, what's the potential for damage for that, too. And so, I think, you know, profit motives, and, you know, some of the organizations behind some of these products, potentially, can turn, you know, what could be a positive that can turn them sour? And and I think that's the, you know, that's the concern. That's, that's the challenge. David, don't you? Would you agree that a market is the best answer that I have an overweening belief in people. And you can post, I don't want to quote that think about, you can fill so many people. But the bottom line is, if you come up with a product that doesn't serve people, they're not going to buy it. And somebody mentioned John Sculley, he really did come up, or at least in his working at Apple, the first smartphones, and they were a total disaster. And I'm not crazy about Steve Jobs, as a person, but he certainly understood design. Same thing with Elon Musk, I think there's a lot of, you know, I think there's been a lot of just, you know, those who have pushed the envelope. But Marty, I think, you know, to your point, you know, some of that is just maturity. And I don't mean, you know, our maturity, but the maturity of the technology, and I like you I have an undying and an unceasing faith in humanity. But, you know, where are we, you know, on that, maybe that continuum. And, you know, I think some of the most compelling conversations I've had with a number of folks in these last few years is, you know, giving ourselves a, you know, a break from our digital devices taking, you know, just stepping back and, you know, going outside and, you know, putting the cell phone, you know, leave it behind. I think there's so much value in just saying, Look, you know, we've maybe gotten a little too wrapped around the spokes on some of this stuff. We could probably all use a little bit of a digital diet. Completely agree. But that's hard because we they are especially the younger audience, and millennials are absolutely physically addicted. It's the adrenaline it's the endorphins of seeing your friends and hearing your friends say Oh, I love that dress. You look so beautiful. I mean, I watch it again. My granddaughters and it's got 75 People said how beautiful she looked in that dress. And that's the endorphins that they're living on, and you can't necessarily even have to send them to a 28 day program. I can't get dinner. You gotta go to rehab. That yeah, and I think that actually read it. You know, it's the endorphins you You hit it right on the head. And I've got one of the podcasters I listened to, as, you know, Barry Weiss and she had, you know, someone on, you know, she interviewed and kind of went down that whole, you know, path in talking about, you know, rehab and 28 days and, and how do you break the cycle and, you know, so I, I went looking on Amazon and you can buy lockers, you know, with timers on them. And so you know, I'm gonna put it in the locker, set it and you know, I can't get my hands back on that device for the next hour, two hours, you know, six hours, whatever that is, give yourself gonna force that digital diet. And then you could sit and stares at that box for six hours. For a walk, wait, waiting, waiting, waiting? Well, I don't know about the rest of you. But you know, it's impacted me I'm not I don't think I'm as good a writer as I used to be. Because of, you know, we're I'm always being interrupted with my I probably could shut it off. But you know, the, the, the helper that moves along and puts changes my words and moves forward. And it's distractive sometimes it's, it's fun. From an email perspective, you want to do something sharp, but if you want to sit down and do something consciously or unconsciously trying to create something, it's just, you know, it's just a distraction to impairment. Marty, what do you think you're always doing? I happen to see ah, an interview with you with British British was at the Daily Mail, you had a you were on the Daily Mail you were talking about kind of the same thing, as David was talking about getting away from your cell phone. That was quite a nice interview. And it comments. If you posted an example of how the world is looking for sound bites. These specific good was that this woman reporter said that she spends five hours a day talking about her cell phone, I guess they call it a mobile phone in the UK. And my reaction to that was get a life all the contributions I'm trying to make in my lifetime are they picked out at what's out. But next to get over, I got more responses, people sending me emails, and that that anything that I've ever said before. But the fact is, I do believe that cell phones are an extension of the person today, even in their primitive form, and the benefits that come from having a useful scar photo, or we're just just scratching the surface. So why do you think we go with that, Marty, that, you know, you use the word primitive form? What's your vision for maybe, you know, kind of the road ahead on that? Well, my immediate response to that is, I have written a book on the subject that you may be interested, it's called cutting the cord, let me show you, I just happen to have a copy here. Nicely, Nicely played, yeah. But I do have a vision of what the future is. And that is application based communications, not a universal device, it has everything. So as an example, there is the potential of cell phone technology, virtually eliminating disease. Now, it is a very grand statement. And but the fact is, we already know that if we can identify a disease in a person's body, before it really takes hold, that we can stop it. And the only way you can do that is to have a personal device that does something like give you a physical examination. Not once a year, actually, I get to annual examination every five years or so. But not once a year, but every minute refraction of illness. And if you do that, and you analyze, you'll be able to head off every disease before it happens. We don't know how to do cancer yet, but there's no doubt in my mind that we're going to learn how to do that. So really, this is an extension of having some communication and processing ability that expands the human mind. And I think that is it over whether the cell phone is becoming an extension of the person, and you will have the cell phone will be your assistant. And the idea of having an assistant that really understands you, and and works to make you stronger, more powerful, more effective, is the ultimate of what the cellphone is going to be. Actually, it's not quite the ultimate, because ultimately, this personality that said, what we now, ludicrously call a cell phone is going to be able to see better and we can see here better than we can maybe think better. And at some point, it may decide that we are superfluous. And we'll get rid of us. But I don't think anybody here is going to have to worry about that. We still got a plan, plug them in. So we're not gonna see the matrix in our lifetime has so many generations to go before they require an awful lot of AI. And that's on it CUSP right now as well. I mean, it's, it's close to the singularity even now. Well, there are a lot of arguments about that. Yeah, well, Google thought they had it last week. But you're a this is one person at Google. That's one person. That's right. So Marty, that and thank you for sharing that. I I agree, by the way, regarding the you know, the medical applications, and you know, and I'm not just talking about things like CRISPR, and, you know, and then you add quantum computing to the mix, and you think about just, you know, the horsepower, you know, coming our way. But yes, if we can more intelligently make, you know, the thing on our wrist, or the phone in our pocket, you know, kind of that, you know, always on always monitoring, you know, that early warning system, you know, like, like many people, I get my annual physical, and in yet, you're just going so what did I learn, and you realize, I didn't learn a whole lot, because, you know, I ended up recently going literally in the last few weeks, I ended up going into the hospital, because I had a DVT in my leg. And, you know, so turned into a pulmonary embolisms, and I'm going, like, two months ago, I was physically fit what what happened. And it just you realize, and I was just literally talking to somebody this morning, and just going, we have the technology, and maybe today, at least, on some of these friends, but you know, it's it's still regarded as too expensive. So, you know, how about giving people you know, a more appropriate scan every year? And whether that's a CAT scan, or an MRI, or whatever those you know, whatever those tests are? Oh, no, no, can't do that. That's way too expensive and annoying. But that actually, is an incredibly predictive, you know, incredibly insightful tool. So what do we got to do to get ourselves to a place where that becomes a part of, you know, if it's not our smartwatch or our smartphone, or smart mobile devices? How do we get, you know, kind of the rest of the technology into the, you know, onto the table and into the mix? So we get far more insightful, predictive, you know, take advantage of the technology that's already out there to help us, you know, better monitors people's health, I think it's a perfect application. I totally agree. And it's moving in that direction. I've seen some phones now medical phones that the back plate of the phone actually senses the the chemicals that come out of your skin and can determine certain people there was the Fitbit, no, it was the iPhone, I watch, just save somebody who was having a heart attack, he was on the trail. And he fell off, he was having a heart attack, and it sensed his heartbeat, and automatically dialed 911. The paramedics showed up before he died and saved him. So we're moving in that direction. Now, I think that's the watch has the perfect, I mean, as long as people are wearing it, it's it's that's the perfect place to bring some of that to bear. Well, I think that goes back to what somebody Marty said that the cellphone didn't have to be the be all and end all. But if I'm, if I'm wrong, I apologize. But I sort of got the idea that he mentioned that it didn't have to be the you know, the single one. One thing that did it so. Well. I agree with what everybody has said here. We still have a long way to go to democratize the cell phone because one of my passions is education. I don't think it's possible to get a modern education without having full time access to the internet. And yet, I don't know if you're aware of the fact that something like half of our students Today, for one reason, or do not have access to the internet, or at least not full time access, they either don't have coverage, could you imagine them in an advanced country like the US, and something like 70% of our population has no cell phone coverage at all, doesn't make any sense at all. So, and another 30, or 40% of our students can't afford cell phones. And so you have the specter of, of a significant percentage of the population, being highly educated, having access to the internet, we know that that stimulates the mind, I hate to admit it, but these kids today are going to grow up smarter than any of the rest of us as a whole. I sure hope so. And now we're gonna say, Well, we're gonna half of our population are going to be the dummies, the ones that didn't have access to the internet, I don't think our society could accept that. That is smart class and a dumb class. So we got some huge problems. Just there's a problem with this group bark is where too much of agreement each other. I've always looked at fight the contrarian. I start talking to these people that are talking about 5g and six g and millimeter waves. And I think they are off on a different planet. Marty, I chose the three of you, because I felt after interviewing all three of you that you were on the same page, and the only way you're going to make changes in this world is really realistically, I mean, obviously, you all have different opinions on different things. But that doesn't mean you're not on the same page. You have a certain historical knowledge, base and experience. And it really helps. You know, I've turned around an awful lot of companies and I didn't do it without people being on the same page, getting them on the same page. So you want to make I think you want to make some major changes in the world. You got to get some people that say, you know, it's like a community, the community gets together and those that baseball field or, you know, does whatever they want, you know, they don't they do something constructive. Because they get on the same they get on the same page. So Marty, any, you know, I'd love to get in lawn both, you know, thoughts on the metaverse. I'm sorry, David. I didn't like the metaverse, any thoughts on the metaverse? Oh, yeah. There's another. If you could tell me what the metaverse is. I might be accused of leading the witness, though, then. But I got a lot to say about the metaverse. It was nonsense. That video that Zuckerberg put together was just total PR crap with the stuff that he showed, I totally have an opinion on this. I mean, he was way over selling the capabilities. I mean, he had AI and virtual reality and augmented reality, when in fact, most computers can't handle what he was even showing. Nobody had the bandwidth to do it. Nobody's paying 350 bucks for a set of goggles to do that. And it's never gonna go mainstream. And he talks about it like it's, oh my gosh, we invented the most amazing thing. I've been on Second Life since 2007 15 years, I've been doing everything that he said. That's nothing new. It's been around for 15 years. And there's other platforms for Bella and some other ones. I had two ecommerce stores I taught classes on Second Life, I did all the stuff that he's bragging about that he can't do in his video that we have been doing for 15 years. It was all about pumping the stock. The stock was tanking, because what was going on with the elections, he had to do something to distract to the shareholders. Well, you finally got a little bit of discord. It was a controversy. You just got to know where the hand grenades are located mark. Even a skeptic like land will have to agree that sooner or later, I've been everybody is going to be a useful tool. So virtual reality. We're still in the game stage are we learned? Yeah, we are. I totally agree with it. Yes. And lon I did an interview a few weeks back, you know, and the question came up, you know, in and around the metaverse and and i i Can the angle I took was one more of just look we've we've just come in we're coming out of two years of lockdown and and you know, separation and you know literally just inside our heads and inside our digital devices, and you're telling me we're going to double down on that via some kind of metal, it's just like no. In fact, I think that's just further compounds the problem. I mean, we don't want more disintermediation, we want more human connection. And I literally, that to me is that gets back to the yin and the yang, we need, we need this, we need to be able to connect talk, dialogue, agree, disagree. But you know, it's what we're, it's it's, it's what we're designed for. That's fundamentally who we are, well put in doing some research for our our interviews, I went around and looked at, you know, different, not just the IT area, but you know, change in general. And there's an organization called the association of leadership, associated leadership. It's, you know, nonprofits associated Cal, CPAs, and association, something like that. And they have developed major drivers, and one of the major drivers that I found that was fairly new to them, for them was more human humane, more human humans. In the face of expanding automation, the relative value of certain human qualities, including social skills, and creativity will increase markedly. In other words, taking, you know, this has gotten to be one of our major drivers and only went on their list in 2020. But humans will remain relevant less by knowing and more by thinking, listening, relating and collaborating at the highest level. And creating. Yep, yeah. Well, so it kind of speaks to what you're talking about. Very well put. Yeah. Appreciate that. Marty, you want to you want to jump in on that Metaverse, you were the first one to get the ball over there. Oh, I think I have it's another buzzword. I want to understand how this is going to affect my children. By the way, I have two and a half great grandchildren now. So I can't brag about being the oldest guy around because it's not a great advantage. But having all those lovely children because associativity is awesome. Once again, these are the executives, these Zuckerberg talking to Zephyr Gerber, not to the rest of us. What is this multiverse concept? Is the science fiction kind of something. In here, we got some practical problems, like the biggest problem we've got is privacy. You know, for years, I've been telling people that privacy doesn't exist anymore. But the reality is that we depend upon privacy to to keep our financial system going. To avoid fraud, or to all of those kinds of things that we're not doing very well at the moment. And you know who the biggest enemy is? Its ourselves. We have learned Amazon and Google that persuade us is that our information, our likes and dislikes, and who we talked to that it's, they can have it for nothing. They could just use all this thing and make tons of money and have us only benefit peripherally. So somehow, we have a fundamental change, where somebody puts a value on our information and gives us something in return. We got a big challenge. In that regard. With social media. We've got the big challenge of how do you separate out fake news from Real News. The internet's gonna be a educational tool. How do we teach our students to discriminate between the good stuff and the bad stuff? So thank goodness, there are no problems for us engineers would go out of business, right. I have one big, you know, we're kind of coming up to the end. But I want to give an end James a little bit of questions. But I it's kind of a long question, but I'd like to kind of shorten the answer a little bit. All three of you have been involved in developmental aspects of it or, you know, just creativity in general. I'm wondering if there's any particular project where you wished that you had been able to keep going, and now you had reached a certain plateau? and either, you know, any number of variables can, you know, any different distraction can come by and you, you don't get a chance to take something to a fuller, you know, towards full value. I'm gonna start with David and then lon and then we'll end with Marty on that one. So David, anything, you developed a lot of things in your life? Yeah. And I would say, I don't know that I feel like there's anything where, you know, kind of, you know, cut cut out early or, or that didn't take it through to, you know, it's, you know, what I would have hoped for, you know, it's logical, you know, a better endpoint. And so I'm just, and I'm absolutely the, the glass half full guy, I'm, I'm excited to see where we go with AI. And again, not new technology, but the influence that it's got. And we know, there's headwinds, and we've talked about him, you know, in terms of, you know, everything from truth to versus fake news, and you name it and, or, you know, utilizing, you know, our own information against us, I really, we've got some, some some incredible opportunity in front of us, we got some huge challenges, too. And so it's just really, I hope we don't, we are able to, to really continue to have clarity, we don't become a victim of ourselves. As we kind of move on, we try to move all this forward, and it just bears out every day, you know, you hear you see, you know, just I mean, just hanging out, and, you know, any of the comments sections, and any, you know, you know, any, anything you read on the internet, you're just going holy cow, I really, you know, that's if I've got concerns, it's that, you know, I think we're, you know, we are potentially, you know, very exposed to, you know, even manipulating ourselves, right. And I just finished an article, you know, I keep mentioning reengineering a lot of companies, and probably the number one thing that I've had to do over the years is eliminate distractions, as best I can, as you can get those distractions down. And those distractions can be anything. I mean, it doesn't mean it's just technology, it's humans, it's all kinds of things. You know, I saw it on the newspaper today. And now we have to do this, you know, people get reactive to stuff like that. And I agree, we're not educating ourselves to process information in a way that critical thinking and use it Yeah, critical thinking, wow, what do you? Yeah, I look back on a lot of the major projects that I've worked on, and I don't, I don't feel like I wish I would have stayed with it any longer. And the reason is, is that those projects evolved as technology evolved, and I evolved the technology and things were always changing the there was this evolution. So at the end of each project, the logical because there was always something new, there was some kind of a breakthrough in the internet, that computers changed everything in my lifetime. And the next biggest change was by far, the internet. And they provided new opportunities. So I felt very comfortable that I had taken whatever I was working on as far as I could. And that now it's time to take advantage of whatever the newest technologies were. And in order to stay on the cutting edge, you always have to stay ahead of that wave. And it's difficult. It takes a lot of work. But it's also the most exciting place by far to be. So yeah, I was excited about that. So I evolved as civilization and technology evolved over the last 30 years. And for example, over the last four years, maybe I teach top executives, AI, ar, VR, and IoT, because those four technologies are going to impact us more than social media, as much as the internet, they are the four most impactful and they're in our lives already. And we don't even notice that they're embedded in our lives. But if you have a doorbell that talks to you, you have aI if you're watching Netflix, you have AI, if you're driving a car that's five years or or less old, it's got AI, VR, virtual reality, augmented reality. And of course, Internet of Things, Internet of Things is going to be really huge. When all these devices start communicating with one another. And they're already beginning to do that. So I want to drop whatever I'm doing and now get on that next get ahead of that next wave and focus on those four technologies. And I'm excited about it because the opportunity is limitless. like Elon, how about you, Martin? Anything, anything that you wish you'd take into a better better level or how it might impact you might have impacted you today. Mark if you haven't figured it out by now I am the app For most of the world, I have had many more failures than my life that I have successes. And I would not change a single one of those things because I know that if I change something, somebody else would change. And what are the best things that ever happened to me when I joined Motorola, in 1954, that's probably before any of you were born. The the founder of Motorola, actually, moderately successful, Motorola didn't happen until the several failures. And one of them is an example of automobiles at that time, around 1928. When I was born, and didn't have heaters or radios, they were just both have transportation. And Paul Galvin came up with a to car heater, and managed to get it funded and started building him. And he did great until the heater started exploding. That took care of that. Fortunately, you did get ultimately got into the putting radios in cars. And even there, the first banker that he went to, said, Well, okay, if you could put a radio in the car, see if you can put it into my Cadillac. And that didn't work out very well, because the Cadillac caught fire, as they weren't ready to drill a hole for the radios. So being able to handle failure is extraordinary requirement. And the reality is, that's the only way you could learn if you don't take a chance. You don't learn anything new. So I don't believe you learn that you have had only a one long series of successes. Oh, no, no, anybody. Were as basic as Mike's learned from them, and became a better person when they did that. And I think that that is a feedback loop. Loop that puts us into what I call I forgot what I call it. Self optimization, nice things, you get enough feedback, you correct things, and the world is getting better we are today in the world, healthier, richer, believe it or not, we are more ecology conscious than ever before. And we've got problems every one of these areas, but the trend is upward. And I have a great belief. It's repeated in both people and technology. They it's very hard to predict the future, other than to know that things have been getting better. And go reasonably, they're not going to keep improving in the future. Oh, you'll keep us positive. That's for sure. David, I'm watching your face. And I'm thinking do you have a question? Or you want to say something? Oh, and I just I think Marty did a good, you know, it's the whole end of innovators dilemma. And, you know, just trying to think about? Yeah, you know, you know, it's learning from failure. And, and, you know, in really even leveraging that. So leveraging technology and leveraging the learning that comes through trying and, and, you know, you think of all the Near Death Experiences that so many of the, you know, the amazing entrepreneurs, even in our lifetime have survived, and you know, and thrived ultimately, as a as a as a part of that. And it's, and that should inspire us all. That would be my only thought. Sometimes the harder it is, the better it is, you know, sometimes. And you all you and James, always love to ask you a few questions. So if these guys are ready for you, I have really less of a question and more of a statement and that is that I adore you all and enjoy listening to you immensely. And lon, I'm right with you on an early adapter. And I'm with David on all the gadgets I love. But my biggest revelation, both calls has been Marty on a democratization of access to education to these tools and a we're never gonna get better until we bring everybody to a platform that works. And I was so completely naive until the pandemic I was not aware that these kids had to be driven to the library to get on the internet or sit outside their uncle's house seems to be on the internet, I was not aware. And so I think that more noise needs to be made by probably all of us. In fact, until we get, you know, all boats rise, we're not going to get where we want to be. Very nice. Thank you, Marty. Um, I have a ton of things I'd like to talk about, but we don't have time. And then you guys are just the kind of people that provoked that kind of thinking. And some of his pessimistic and I'm not going to do anything pessimistic in the presence of Marty, that's fantastic. I will say this, though, to kind of piggyback a little bit in my own way on what Anne was saying, I, I feel like you really hit the nail on the head, because I never liked thinking of myself as a consumer. And I don't like the idea that this technology becomes a consumer issue. We're somebody who can afford to spend, you know, $1,000 on a cell phone has access to technology that somebody who can't afford it does. And I just think that that's a big issue to hit hit on, because there's so much momentum in the other direction. You know, I never thought of myself as a consumer. And I like to think of myself, I like to think of myself as not a consumer, but I have to have a cellphone, I have to have 24 hour, seven day a week access to the internet, or I can't function. So I have to be a consumer of this technology. And I have to have conversations where you know, I'm in this I live in the same house as my daughter who pays twice as much for cellular access than I do. You know, it's just you see that kind of disparity happening even within your own domicile. So that's just I really appreciate you guys bringing that that topic up. And I think a lot of what we're talking about will dovetail through it'll go through that Gris, no matter what it's going to, it's going to have to run up against that that litmus test. And I just hope our society rises to the occasion and sides. It's not a consumer issue. It's a equal access. It's an equity issue. And we're about equity, I hope. Well, Jack barca, these comments a bi N and N j's are very appropriate. Because right now, we have left our big carriers, I hope that none of you are associated with T or Verizon, or we'll let them kind of control the conversation. And they are investing hugely, in a segment of the market that excludes maybe 70 or 80% of the population. They're they're putting high density millimeter waves in the middle of New York. And when there are places in South Dakota, and Indiana and places like that, that have zero coverage. So somehow rather, FCC who somewhat controls these things, a radio spectrum, it's got to shape up. And so far, they're down to a very good job. And I'm, I hope they're not listening to this thing, because they could kick me off this advisory council. And they are, yeah, that's why you're there. Give me an example. And their solution to the digital divide that that we've been talking about here, is let's subsidize the cable companies. So they could give cable to people at a lower price. You know, first of all, cable doesn't do it all. And second of all, who could afford even the subsidize cable? So I was dismayed by the fact that we had four carriers. And two of them combined. They should never have let that happen. We need more competition. Right now. All these carriers at least a TN T and Verizon are trying to copy each other instead of compete with each other. And they're still acting like they're their bell system. Like there were now please. Much as I'm optimistic about things I'm still an engineer and I still feel flaws everywhere. And the only bad things about this session you sit up Marcus, is all the panelists agree with me? So that's not very interesting. That's the first that's the first shot you ever took out? You gotta get an argument going. Yeah. I want to I want something creative. Anyway, David, I watch I watch you get your mind right under me. So you were there. What are you thinking there? No, I I again, I appreciate you know, all of you know just that. That concerns regarding the digital divide, you know, where we go with? You know, it does you want to talk about, you know, anything, anything around social justice and and, you know, equity I think, you know, it has to be, you know, equal access or or, you know, essentially access for all. Because otherwise, you know, we already, you know, are struggling with, you know, the haves and the have nots, and this has the this, this could exponentially, you know, exacerbate that. And that's that's a huge issue. Thank you, Lauren. You want one more? One more shot? Yeah, I completely agree. I did a lot of work in India. And if you want to see have and have nots, and I'm not just talking about cell phone, I'm talking about basic human rights. It I couldn't believe it in till I was actually there and experienced it. And I saw what happened to that country because of that divide, that was a human divide. And yeah, you're absolutely right. My daughter is a teat, my both of my daughters are teachers. And during the COVID, she had a really terrible, terrible time trying to keep those students occupied trying to get them online and trying to have the resources because nobody was prepared for this. And you're right until the US, which is one of the greatest countries in the world, if not the best, until we realize that and make it equal opportunity for everybody. It shouldn't be like some of the ADEA rules. It should be equal for all, you're absolutely right, common denominator. So you know, even though we didn't have a lot of discord, you did agree that probably the stepping point here is the educational perspective and the equity aspect of it, that everybody gets an opportunity to be part of the solution. Part of the development and with more people, more people having larger needs that just drives a larger market. At the same time. You know, if you're missing 70%, you're missing an awful lot on the market, right? You're missing a lot of business, you're missing a lot of opportunity. So I think you did come up, ultimately, with the last three, the last three statements on all three of you is that together, you're agree you can put your hands together and say we could do something in that in that area. Because we believe it when you experience it every day in one way or one way or the other. I want to thank you both. All three of you. I said bold I apologize all three, subconsciously eliminating on that one market, just just asking, just asking. Should I keep out? I vote it was Marty, I've just given him a zinger. Well, I haven't picked on Marty and I haven't picked on anybody. But I will say that. For me, when you talk about education, and you talk about I totally believe everybody should have information. But I don't, I don't believe that the internet can help us with wisdom. And we are losing wisdom. You know, you see it in all aspects of our, our life, whether it's governmental, political, whatever, there's the idea of wisdom, understanding, and working through things from from a sense of understanding and understanding, you know, everything, you got to find thing other things out, you know, I think, you know, Creative Conversations, the ability to not bifurcate each other because I have more information in new ways to learn how to use information in a way that really does advance the process, as opposed to using it to you know, you talked about the word weaponized. David, in many ways information can be weaponized to keep other people out. Maybe that's part of what goes on with Marty says it's, it's, you know, the information isn't getting to other people, because it allows others to have power. Anyway, I'm glad you guys were able to get here and chat and take the time to do it. And your information was phenomenal. Mark, thank you proud to be part of this. Yeah. Thank you. This was an honor. Thank you. You're always stimulating work. Thank you. Sorry, I might have to, I might have to accuse you of being wise. You learn that. wisdom, wisdom is important. But thank you for inviting me to do like to meet the rest of you in session. Five, we will. We will make sure you all have your information about each other. Don't hesitate to connect and chat with each other. So I would love it. Excellent. Have a nice day. Have a nice week. Thank you all. Thank you