Why are we making this podcast?

In this introductory episode, we'll explain why we're creating this podcast and address the concerns many leaders have surrounding the question of women's roles in church.

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Transcript

Travis Albritton: 0:01

Welcome to the women in the church podcast where we take a fresh look what the Bible teaches about women in church for the ICOC. I am one f your hosts, Travis Albr tton. Joining me as we'll be t e case for every episode is my p rtner in crime Corina Espej. Hello Corina, let's just st rt off this trailer episo e. I don't know if it'll be a qu ck trailer, but it'll be a tr iler, kind of letting you k ow what's to come and just kind of talk about like, what is the ultimate question that we're hoping to address with his podcast?

Corina Espejo: 0:31

Yeah, we really hope that in this podcast, we can answer the question, what does the Bible say about women in the church?

Travis Albritton: 0:38

Yes, that is right. And we're going to be definitely taking our time doing a thorough Bible study of this topic of what does the Bible say about women in the church? And we're going to also answer for the questions that you have when you clicked on this particular podcast episodes like, can a woman preach to a mixed audience on a Sunday? Are there certain ministry roles that are restricted for men or women? What part do spiritual gifts play and how we serve the church and other related questions like that? So we're going to cover all of those things on this podcast. Now, one thing that I think is important for us to say, right off the bat, is that both of us are members of the International troops of Christ. Yeah. I grew up in the ICOC. I know. I did, too. Yeah. So we're both Kingdom kids. And in the best sense of the word. And, and we love our fellowship, we love our fellowship of churches. And so this podcast is not simply, let's study out this topic in question, just because we're curious. But because we really do want the ICOC to flourish and do well, and to feel equipped to handle questions like this. When they come up.

Corina Espejo: 1:55

Yeah, I'm really as it feels like family talks. I don't think we're coming here to this is a movement. No, it feels more like this is our family. And like all families, we love it. And there are going to be things we don't like and things that we just adore. So just keep that in mind that this is family talk.

Travis Albritton: 2:11

Right. And something that you will hear us repeat often. Because it's true, is that we don't have a hidden agenda with doing this podcast, we don't have a bone to pick we don't have like something that we're trying to get to at the end like a predetermined outcome that we really do, you know, as to individuals that have studied this, this question out in depth. We just want to offer the things that we've learned, and the the understanding that we've gained in studying out this question, and create a resource that's tangible, palatable, accessible, so that we you don't have to go off and learn Hebrew and Greek To answer this question, and that you can feel empowered and equipped. But I know when we first started talking about this podcast, with ministers, leaders, other churches, and even just other members within the ICOC, that there was a lot of concern about Oh, what do you actually do in here? Like, what's, what's really going on? Is there are you hiding something behind the corner, that this is just a slippery slope to a bunch of other questions and issues? Corina, I know that you pecifically, like interviewed eople, and like, captured their esponses. Yeah. And so so let's ind of walk through some of hose concerns, so that we can peak to them. And so if you're istening to this podcast, you an maybe be a little more at ase about listening to these pisodes, then maybe you might ave been just by seeing the itle.

Corina Espejo: 3:43

Yeah. And I tried to get a wide range of people. So as you hear me say, these statements, my best advice is trying to hear these statements simply from your church family, I wouldn't try and put any specific demographic a part of it because I did try and get wide as far as age, even just background of growing up in the church or not growing up in the church. Or even if we think about these classically progressive, traditional or even ethnicity and race, so don't think oh, man, a millennial said that, or some old white dude probably claim that like, No, just think about it as your brother or sister in Christ is saying this and leave it at that. So let's one of the biggest concerns and I tried to group them in three different categories. They naturally fell into three topics. The first one is that concern that talking about gender or women's roles, is really culturally driven and forced upon us as a church body by the world by the outside world. For example, movements like modern feminism and us having to answer this opens up the door for other topics that us as a church, we are still learning and growing in but are forced to speak on it prematurely. In other words, you know, we're not ready to talk about it with a certain authority or knowledge, but we have to because of what's happening And I think for us, I don't think that's neither bad nor good. And that's not what we're trying to say. But it is a general concern. So some of those straight from what people said, I'm just gonna word for word say what they were the feedback they gave. One person said, I don't like being wrong. And it can be scary learning that what I thought I knew, isn't true, because I feel like my security is taken away. Another person said, I hope for a culture that is not limited to the current debate around the topic of gender roles, but reaches back to the Bible for Jesus heart, as well as a possible teaching and examples to frame how we think and act surrounding this topic. And the last one, it's a long one, but it's a good one. It says my hope would be that people could approach this topic with a relatively open mind and not let other worldly or humanistic aspects affect what God lays out for us to follow. My prayer would be that disciples have compassion towards each other in this situation, and that we arrive at a decision we believe is best for our relationship with God, and for the spreading of his word.

Travis Albritton: 6:00

And I think that this is a valid concern, you know, especially if you're listening to this and you're a leader, you're in ministry, leading small groups training and equipping others, that it is a totally natural response to say, okay, is this a question that we're answering on our terms? Or is this something that's being forced on us? And do we have the, the capacity to answer this wisely and confidently? Yeah, I think that's a totally valid concern. You know, and to what Corina aid, you know, it's neither ood or bad to have that kind of ressure to feel like, okay, we o need to give an answer. The ible does say we need to be quipped, you know, to give an nswer to those that ask us bout the faith that we hold to, nd, you know, and just being a art of life and walking on the arth is that people will have uestions, and the culture that e live in, will bring questions o us. And so those should not e threatening, we should not eel threatened, when the world round us has questions about hat does the Bible say about his? What does God think about hat, but really see those more s opportunities that, you know, ecause we serve a God that is rue, that is faithful, that is onsistent, and that is here orever? That we can have onfidence that not only can we urn to the Bible for that isdom that we need to answer, ut also to have a foundation hat's biblically built, and to ot feel like every time a uestion comes up is another pportunity for people to lose heir faith, which that can, specially when it's an verwhelming amount of questions ll at once it can feel that ay. It can feel kind of nundating. And so hopefully, ith this particular question, his podcast can help alleviate ome of that concern that Yeah, aybe a lot of this question is eing driven by the world around s. But it doesn't mean that we an't answer it on our terms by eturning to the Bible.

Corina Espejo: 7:50

Yeah. And you're not alone. You are definitely not alone, if you feel that, that concern or that fear. Let's move on to the next one. So the next I'll say bucket of thoughts on this question. It comes from this concept of we will oppose God's design for partnership between men and women to uphold our human and sometimes unhealthy expectations of both sexes. So again, this concept, it's kind of like the men will be phased out, and their roles in contravene contributions devalued in the home or at the church. Or On the flip side, again, straight from from one of these individuals, I think I get scared that the word of God will just be used to oppress women in a space where women should be uplifted and listened to and treated as equal, another person shared, I fear, feeling like God created me as a woman to somehow be weaker or not as capable as someone else because of my gender. Still, another person said, I have many hopes on this subject. But my biggest wish for all my friends is to be able to teach about God's word, not just the boys, I find it ridiculous that your gender can determine what you do for God, as we are, are we Excuse me? Are we as disciples willing to trust God while learning and relying on the historical and contextual roles of women in the church and be willing to modify our thinking if needed? Another person said, How can we find the true meaning of Scripture without changing it? And how do we know if we've gone too far in terms of interpreting, and then the last one, there's so much power in my hands when it comes to interpretation? I want to be able to discern what God's word as he intended it, and some of these are really, it can feel really emotional and high charge and I think part of the grace and mercy I think of us doing this podcast is not pretending like people don't feel or think or have these these thoughts. But really just being able to listen and not put any kind of judgment on it, but just allow people to work it out.

Travis Albritton: 9:46

Yeah, and I think the the other thing that I hear from this feedback and the juiciest thoughts from disciples, brothers and sisters from within our fellowship is a desire to stay true to God's Will when That is and that's something that we've both heard across the board something that we both both, you know, signed up for when we said Jesus as Lord is, you know, God, you just you just tell me what what is your desire for my wife? What is your desire for us as a church? And and give us the humility to listen? And I think a big concern from people entering this conversation of answering this question is because, you know, a lot of it can feel culturally driven from the world around us is there can be a fear or hesitation that even engaging in this question or talking about this question is going to lead us away from God's design his, his will, what we see in Scripture, and instead lean on human understanding and human wisdom, because it feels right in the broader context of the culture that we live in. And I think that's totally a real concern. But that should not hold us back from being able to, to wade into this question on our own terms, by really studying the Bible, seeing what the Bible has to say what God has to say, through Scripture. And know that ultimately, like, this is something that, as with everything, we're continuing to grow and mature that, you know, 1020 years from now, we're gonna be asking different questions, we're gonna be growing in different ways. And so, so just know from from Korea, and myself and from the other individuals that'll be contributing to this podcast, that we're really unified and leaning on the Bible as our standard, and as the foundation for everything that we talk about and discuss. You know, and that we're going to really let God speak to us, instead of bringing our expectations about what we think God should say. But rather just be humble to the Bible. So that way, you know, we can all be unified around that, and we can all still have that same conviction that, you know, we're really gonna put the Bible first when it comes to decisions and stances that we take with questions that we that we get from the world around us and from within our churches as well.

Corina Espejo: 11:57

Yeah, and speaking on that, I mean, a real talk. There are a lot of these these statements and a lot of things that we're going to be talking about some I can totally relate to, like feeling the pressure of having to handle the word correctly, or any of these statements, but I think even I love what you said about putting the Bible first, which kind of sometimes means you need to know what comes second. And in embracing this is how I feel or this has been my experience or other people's experiences and hurts and hopes right and being able to look at those things and say, I'm going to put the Bible first. Along those same lines. The last bucket of concerns and thoughts is about how certain principles you know, such as relativism, absolutism, collectivism, individualism, any other ism, can destroy unity and righteousness of the church. Someone said, I especially have a fear of generational division, that one was like, Oh, yes, I can. I feel that. Another ones that I want those studying out this topic to focus on listening to the spirit, rather than learning to support a position or an argument. Another one said, the big picture to me is this, wherever the individual disciple falls on the issue, we must maintain the unity of the Spirit. I pray that the church enters into this study with a heart of humility, it's better for someone to assume they know nothing good into this study than to assume that they already know the truth. I also hope that regardless of final positions on the matter, each person can understand where the other is coming from. And there can be no discord dissension or factions in God's Church, that anyone on this journey can be protected from judgment and assumptions, that we can be proud of each other for seeking out truth and asking questions. That was the capital T truth, that we can respect each other, whatever we wherever we land. And then the last one, I hope that we do not let a subject like this keep us from spreading the gospel with each other, as a body and as a family.

Travis Albritton: 13:46

Yeah, and that's always the tough part. But it comes to conversations like this, where you have a wide variety of perspectives and life experiences and denominational backgrounds and doctrinal backgrounds, is, you know, whenever you get into a heated discussion, which often this becomes very heated, because there's, you know, we each bring our own experiences into the conversation, that instead of promoting unity, and maturity, and righteousness, that it devolves into factions and divisions. And if we just look historically, at the church as a whole, that is what we do. We say, Oh, so you think women can serve communion during the church service like past the trays? We do not. So now we will create two different denominations, which are completely identical except for how we address this question. Or even closer to home the Christian churches in the churches of Christ. They separated largely on the question of instrumental music. And so it was like, okay, we both hold to the Bible as the standard. We both believe in discipleship and repentance and baptism, but you play guitar on Sundays, and we do not so we're going to create separate denominations. So that way, you know, we can kind of each go Our own way. And that is, I mean, it's really sad. It's really sad to think like, wow, this other worldly a gobby love that God has entrusted with us. And that we are his his flag bearers, his image bearers, that we're supposed to represent him to the world, that rather than working through the the minor differences that we have, we are less unified than the world around us. And so I know for Corina and myself, when we were eally looking through this ible study in this question, in articular, our aim is that at he end of this, we would be ore unified than before, even f the way we think about unity eeds to, to change or shift lightly in order to be more esilient. Our goal is for the COC to be stronger, that at the nd of this question, as all of s collectively work through his and study this out and come o a renewed or solidified onvictions about where we tand, and why that that would romote unity, because it's no onger this is just the way that e've always done things where e studied this out years ago, nd it's settled, or, you know, o and so said that this is the ay to do it. And so that's what e're doing. Because if you have uestions, and that's the esponse you get, it doesn't eally inspire confidence. It oesn't, it doesn't say, you now, what, I really respect how hey arrived at that answer and hat position, as a church, ompletely transparent and aying, we're just going to isten to the Bible. If it oesn't come across that way, hen yeah, there will be pportunities for division and iscord and dissension. But But ur hope, and our aim is, by ind of going through the study ogether, that we can land on a ore solid foundation that we've ad in the past when it comes to his question. That's the dream. o why are we making this odcast? We just went over some oncerns, some things that we've eard some feedback that we've otten, why why did we feel like his is something worth making t worth really investing the ast, you know, the better part f 2021, preparing for to make ure that we could do it dequately?

Corina Espejo: 17:13

Yeah, we really wanted to provide that thorough just a practical study, not even just something that's just academic, but something that can really give us application of this question with no hidden agenda or expectations. And we will talk about what our agenda is and what we do want, because I think it'd be silly to say, we don't want anything. But really, it's just coming from this place of true love for the church and our fellowship of churches, especially with the ICC, and we just want the best for our family, our church family.

Travis Albritton: 17:46

Yeah. And the main focus that we have for this podcast, you know, because anyone, within our family of churches, I think will benefit from listening to this. But really, we're making this for, for leaders, for people that are in ministry, people that serve alongside ministry, part time, vocationally, people that lead small groups, people that train other people. So we're not just going through the study saying, here's a Bible study, but really applying it from the perspective of you're a person who's leading others, and you're trying to lead them in the right way. You're trying to guide them into God's will not just for their lives, but also for your church in your ministry as a whole. And both of us have been in ministry, currently serve in ministry in the capacities, and totally understand what it's like, when you get questions out of the blue, that you haven't spent eight months studying out and feeling ill equipped to answer those questions. So if you're listening to this, and you're in the ministry, we totally respect and look up to you for all the work that you do. And we just want to be here as a helpful resource to help you be able to provide thoughtful insights to the people in your ministry, the people that God has entrusted you to lead, and that you feel empowered and equipped to move forward and not stay in a state of, you know, paralysis of, Oh, I don't have time to really study out this question, because I'm putting out five other fires and this marriage falling apart and that ministry is going haywire. And I got to do all these things. And then now I also have to be a Bible scholar, when it comes to understanding how to answer this question. We totally get it, we totally get it and understand. And we just want to want you to know that we're on your your team, we're on your side, we want to partner with you, and help give you the resources that you need in order to to really live out the calling that God has given to you.

Corina Espejo: 19:32

Yeah, I hope you guys feel a lot of compassion. I really do. Just compassion and partnership in the faith here. That's the dream. So yeah, so

Travis Albritton: 19:42

let's talk about our agenda. We said there's no agenda, but we do have an agenda. Hopefully, it's an agenda you can get behind as well. So let's just talk about what we don't want coming from this podcast and what we really do want people to gain from listening to this podcast.

Corina Espejo: 19:59

Yeah. Yeah, I do not want people to feel judged. And we talked about leaders, but anybody, we don't want anybody to feel judged. On the flip side of that, we really hope you feel grace and love. That godly grace and that godly love. Another one, we don't want you to feel alone or neglected. And I think that's really common for people who approached this question to feel incredibly isolated, or forgotten. And so we hope that you feel again, that unity that was a big one in our feedback from people, but also confidence in Jesus and in Christ. Often chaos, right? There's a lot of chaos and feeling lost and completely confused on this topic. So we hope at the end of this, there's competence, and people feel like I'm competent in the Gospel and truth and I'm secure. And God. My favorite one was my last one, I added this on. I really just hope you experience hope, hope for the church, hope for yourself hope for others. That's, yeah, so we want.

Travis Albritton: 20:57

And I think those are all things that, you know, as ministers of reconciliation, that Yeah, like that totally, totally resonates not just with how we would hope that we would act and respond, but really aligns with how Jesus did his ministry, right, that we really want to not just speak truth, but model what that truth in love looks like. Yes. And, and I think the other tangible benefits that we hope that we'll get out of this discussion is not just answering this question of what does the Bible have to say about women in their roles in ministry, and what that looks like for us as a fellowship of churches, but that we can actually learn how to study lightning rod topics and questions that are culturally relevant, and doing it in a way that doesn't feel threatening. That doesn't feel like you know, we're just stepping on that third rail, just trying to try to blow things up for no reason. But that we feel like, Okay, if we can answer this question, and if we can learn the right approach to answering this question, in a way that honors God, that really reflects the heart and love of Jesus, but also allows us to be humble to what God has to say for us, then that would give us the confidence to wade into even stickier topics and questions that that we're facing in the world, too. So, so our hope and our prayer for this podcast is that you would see this not as a threat to your influence, or to you being able to do the work that God has called you to do. We certainly do not want this to be, I mean, to the best of our ability weaponized against you, if you're in the ministry, both of us have seen that happen, where, you know, a teaching comes out that's new or different. And rather than it being used as an opportunity for constructive dialogue, it's used as a stick of dynamite, you know, by people that have been hurt by real experiences, and, and that just shuts down conversation, which is not what we want. And so our hope is that this would really be an opportunity for us to study this out thoroughly, honestly, with humility and love and patience, and bearing with one another, in and instead of just finding ways to tell people why they're wrong, that instead we would seek to gain further wisdom and clarity from the scriptures. So you may or may not know who we are, you may or may not even know who we are in real life we met, we might not even be Facebook friends, that is totally possible. So you may be wondering, well, who are you guys to do this podcast? Like, why? Why is Travis and crina? Why are Why are we doing this podcast? And not leaving it up to other people who may be more skilled or qualified to answer this question?

Corina Espejo: 23:39

Yeah, I so I'm a New Yorker in at heart. I moved to Jacksonville a couple years ago, but ultimately, just a sister in Christ. I've made a ton of mistakes on every level. When it comes to just talking to people listening to people, I, I'm such a talker, so I think I'm doing a great job for this podcast. But like, yeah, I think a part of me I, I wondered, am I up for the challenge, right? As somebody who did grow up in the church, and I have a very, you know, obviously narrow perspective on the matter. I wonder, okay, am I up for this challenge, and I'm grateful that we are pulling in other more skilled, knowledgeable people who have spent way more hours on this topic. And I think just in terms of their their teaching gift. I think they're, I'm excited to get them in on this conversation in our family.

Travis Albritton: 24:36

Yeah. So similar to Corina. I grew up in he church. I grew up in the COC. I described myself as a yper active amateur Bible cholar. So like, all the edging you could possibly do, I ust love reading the Bible. I ove studying the Bible restling with questions. I've one online ministry for the ast four or five years. And so o yeah, so we both bring our wn strengths, but we also ecognize areas have this iscussion where we benefit from rue experts that can actually ead the Hebrew and the Greek nd have the cultural context nd understanding. And so you're oing to hear those people, hose individuals throughout his podcast. And all of those ndividuals are also in the COC. So this is truly a family onversation that we're having, or us and for each other. Now, ow can leaders churches best tilize this particular resource hat, you know, we're creating his Bible study series? We're ecording it as a podcast. What re different ways that people an take these episodes and pply them to the conversations hey're having internally? in heir own churches?

Corina Espejo: 25:42

Yeah, yeah, we hope and I definitely know, we dreamed for this podcast to be used as a personal Bible study first. And I think that's one thing I might not be, you know, in seminary school. But one thing I think both you and I, we try and make sure it's for us first, and when we approach the Bible that the power is for us first. So how you can utilize this, if you're a leader, in that capacity, use it for your personal Bible study. First, let the word do what it does for you. Again, that powerful and effective, like it talks about in Hebrews four, let it let it do that for you. First, then you can approach that for your group discussion. I think the question is, okay, how will we use this podcast? For our local church to begin to answer this question together? And I think that's a great start, again, you first and then and then kind of bringing in your small group or your church.

Travis Albritton: 26:36

Yeah, I think another great way that people could use this podcast is if you're part of a task force, which that's, that's kind of the the going buzzword nowadays, for, hey, we got to answer this question. Let's get together a group of people that love Jesus, to really study this out as a group. If you're a part of a taskforce like that, then consider using this podcast as a framework for being able to study this question in a helpful starting place. You know that you certainly we certainly believe that you should go into your own study, you should read, read your own resources, but simply use this as a framework as a starting place to say, okay, maybe let's start here. Let's start with these questions, these topics, these passages and scriptures. And then fill in the gaps where we feel like we need to for our particular church congregation, and whatever the task is that you've been given, whether it's setting out women's roles in ministry, or something similar. And then last but not least, we really want this podcast to be a resource for your church as a whole. Right, that we are certainly making this first and foremost, to help readers be able to understand this question fully understand the biblical context for how we answer this question. And then feel equipped to then teach other people the things that they've learned. But as with any question, and any potential change in the way that we do church, it's always wise to bring the church along with you, as you're studying that question out. And so we also hope that you can use these episodes, and the handouts and the study guides that we put together for each of these studies, and use them to really train and equip the entire church, when it's appropriate for you to have this conversation we recognize, it's not always the best time right now to to jump into this really meaty discussion that there may be other pressing priorities that you see, you know, that you want to address first, or this is something you want to do now, or something you want to do six months from now or a year from now. But when you're ready to really bring this before your church that you feel like you have resources and guides that you can use to make that process easier, and more straightforward, so that you feel like you have the resources, you need to do that effectively. So hopefully, in this semi short trailer, not really short, you got a sense of our heart and our passion or our you know where we're coming from, when it comes to this question and answering this question. If you do want to get your hands on some of those study guides and handouts we're gonna be creating to help you with your own study, as we go through this podcast, and also a list of the resources that we've used in setting out this question in preparing for this podcast. You can sign up for that just go to women, church podcast.com and just put in your your name and your email address, and we'll send you those resources, and also emails of new episodes as they come out. So you will always notify you when a new episode comes out. We'll always give you the study guide or the Bible study guide for that episode. So that way you can kind of study it along with us and we can go on this journey to gather. So we hope you enjoyed that introduction to the women in the church podcast. Stay tuned for episode one which be dropping very soon. We're going to talk about major foundations that we need to set for moving forward and engaging with this discussion.