#3. Is This What God Wants?

In this episode, Jason Alexander joins us to walk through Genesis 3 and unpack the fallout from man's decision to pursue wisdom outside of God's design.

Questions we'll answer in this episode:

• Does Genesis 3 show that God wants man to exercise authority over woman?
• Is Genesis 3:14-19 the goal for how we interact with one another within the church?
• What does it mean for woman to "desire" her husband?

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Transcript

Travis Albritton: 0:01

Welcome back to the women in the church podcast where we take a fresh look at what the Bible says about women in church for the ICC. I'm Travis Albritton. Joining me as always, is Corina dispay have a lovely Corina Greetings, and then back for more pain and punishment, Jason Alexander?

Jason Alexander: 0:18

Yes. Here I am. I can't I haven't slept. Let's go. Yeah, this is great.

Travis Albritton: 0:24

So today, if Genesis one and two felt like a head spinning journey through the ancient Near East, yeah, just wait till we get to Genesis three, which is what we're gonna tackle today. So we're going to walk through Genesis three, which includes the fall. So eating the forbidden fruit, and involves some punishments, maybe, perhaps, and then also the outcome, what happens when we sin and rebel against God, and we're going to do it, we're gonna have this discussion within the framework of gender roles, and what we can glean and maybe what isn't actually there that we often put into Genesis three, to make sure that we're pulling out what God has intended for us to understand. So let's go ahead and jump into our first scripture reading, which would be Genesis chapter three, verse one, through 13. Kareena Why don't you read that for us?

Corina Espejo: 1:18

The serpent was the shortest of all the wild animals Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden. Of course, we may eat from the trees in the garden, the woman replied, it's only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we're not allowed to eat. God said, You must not eat or even touch it. If you do, you will die. You won't die. The serpent replied to the woman. God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God knowing both good and evil. The woman was convinced, she saw that the tree was beautiful, and its fruit looked delicious. And she wanted the wisdom it would give her so she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it, too. At that moment, their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sued fig leaves together to cover themselves. When the cool evening breezes were blowing, the man and his wife heard the Lord God walking about in the garden, so they hid from the Lord God among the trees. Then the Lord God called to the man, where are you? He replied, I heard you walking in the garden. So I hid. I was afraid because I was naked. Who told you that you were naked? The Lord God asked, Have you eaten from the tree whose fruit I commanded you not to eat? The man replied, It was the woman you gave me who gave me the fruit and ate it. Then the Lord God asked the woman, what have you done? The serpent deceived me, she replied. That's why I ate it.

Travis Albritton: 2:43

All right, so the epic downfall of mankind has begun. And this isn't in the notes, but I just want to ask because I feel like the answer will be fun. Jason, who is the Serpents in this story? Is it Satan? Or is it someone else?

Jason Alexander: 3:02

Yeah, it's kind of like the discussion we had earlier about the first person plural language of Genesis chapter one, there is some rereading, that happens a little later. But, but even in we didn't read it here, but in in verse 15, you'll get the sense that the serpent stands for more than just a snake. But there are all kinds of connections with a serpent in the ancient world, that kind of mythology, which includes serpents, as God's enemy or the embodiment of something bad. That comes up in Isaiah, chapter 27. You hear about the twisting serpent Leviathan, so almost this kind of mythological creature that has the ability to create chaos or wreak havoc, and it's brought up in Isaiah, to talk about how God has subdued and laid low that ancients, mythological serpent, Egypt to had a vision of the serpent that was a symbol of power and of vitality. And so perhaps some of that is being under cut here in Genesis, because it's definitely not the vision in Genesis.

Travis Albritton: 4:26

Well, and the reason I asked is because, like in Genesis one where we can very quickly say, oh, let us that means Trinity. The story itself does not say that this serpent is Satan. And if we do pull back the curtain and look at other creation myth in the area of Mesopotamia around the time that the story is set, serpents are a common character. They're mischievous, they're antagonists. And so this could also be the writers the editors of Genesis repurposing, common imagery, characters. telling it a different way to say, this is who you say, God is like, yeah, this is actually who God is like, and we are going to take your story and flip it upside down. Right? Yeah,

Jason Alexander: 5:13

yeah. I mean, within the narrative world of Genesis chapter two and three, the serpent has it, you know, has a more immediate meaning than, than Satan. But as I said, you get the sense from verse 15, that whatever the serpent is, is bigger than just a serpent. But the serpent is called hyatts hustle. hasa basically, wildlife or life of the of the field, I guess, technically. And these are the exact creatures that Adam seemed to have some kind of harmony with the the wildlife in Genesis chapter two. And so the serpent is among those creatures. And I think that's important that this is one of the creatures over which presumably, humanity is supposed to rule.

Travis Albritton: 6:09

Indeed. Well, that was a fun little sidebar, just once again, a reminder that when we read the Bible, there's a lot here. And we just get to have fun unpacking it and seeing what God has laid out for us. Now Corina, why don't you get us back on track?

Corina Espejo: 6:23

So when we're looking at Genesis three, why is Eve's understanding of the command different from chapter two? Verse 17?

Jason Alexander: 6:34

Yeah, I think this has a lot to do with the way that the serpent is characterized. He is called a room, which is an ambiguous term in Hebrew. You don't want to necessarily say that to be a room is is a bad thing. But it's, it's not. Neither is it necessarily good. It's a word used in Proverbs to describe becoming shrewd, and I think shrewd as it is a good way of translating this here because you can sense in the English word shrewd some some wordplay with with what happens in chapter two, verse 25. But the serpent is shrewd, or crafty. This is a way of describing the serpent's ability to trick and get what he wants. Now the humans in chapter two verse 25, are called outer meme. And they're the word is often translated naked or nude. And I think nude and shrewd is isn't nice wordplay in English, because these nude human beings, which seemed to be naive at some level, in a good way, like a child, is, they're set back on their heels by this shrewd serpent. And it's, it's the suggestive language of the serpent that I think, puts Eve in a tough spot. Because he's not even telling them necessarily to eat from the tree. He's just presenting them with some carefully placed language to get them to question the motives of the of the deity of the Creator. And so it puts her in a position where she's like, Well, no, he didn't necessarily say that. And so it's just like, quoting from the hip.

Corina Espejo: 8:29

So when we look at chapter two, verse 17, right, God says it again to humanity, right? If you eat its fruit, again, we're talking about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are sure to die. But then in chapter three, when the serpent asks, okay, Did God really say write her responses? Well, what God said was and E's responses, you must not eat or even touch it. If you do, you will die. And there's a difference there. Yeah. Is there a difference in Eve's understanding? Or do we think this difference in the command is coming from somewhere else? Why is there this big change?

Jason Alexander: 9:04

I've heard people describe this as well. She's, she's going beyond what was actually commanded. God never said anything about touching whether you want to get really technical, she didn't exist. When, when the command was given initially, apparently, or if she did exist, she existed as a part of the the DOM. So you know, did she misunderstand? Is she grappling with how the question was phrased? It's interesting the serpent here is essentially asking did God say absolutely die? It's almost as if what's implied here is that you can eat this like you know, if you're gonna die, it's gonna be a long way off like you're not going to die tomorrow from from meeting this. Did God really say you're absolutely going to die? Is that is that what was said? I don't know what to make of her response. beyond that. She is it's almost as if she's trying to recall what exactly was said. You know, it's almost like it you know, that's a good point. Well, what was said was don't need it. You know, don't even touch it. You're gonna die. You're You're right, though maybe maybe I won't die today. This is some good looking fruit and it would make me a better, more adept person to eat from it. So yeah, I think her stumbling with recalling what was said is a product of the serpent being shrewd, and her being nude. I think that's part literarily. I think that's what you see being played out here.

Corina Espejo: 10:43

Yeah. So it's more like, okay, maybe there was a discrepancy because it was a bad game of telephone. But it's more likely and consistent with this narrative being told that the serpent is shrewd, and he can kind of get inside your head and make you kind of muddy the waters and get things confused. Yeah,

Jason Alexander: 11:00

I think that's right. We're not meant to underestimate the power of this serpent suggestion. There is a dis a deception that's happening and it's very subtle. Like just a brilliant, I don't know, in our modern day, who would who you compare this to like maybe a really good used car salesman who gets you to buy like a 1982 Datsun or whatever is, you know, any. He he convinces you? It's awesome.

Corina Espejo: 11:32

The princess in the frog, you know, okay, yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Alexander: 11:38

The power of suggestion here has Yeah, you said muddy the waters. I like that,

Corina Espejo: 11:44

homeboy, smooth. All right, yeah. And I and the serpent guys got it. So in some, here's some of these other minute details. But I think when I know for me why people ask this, why I asked this, some of these details. And I love that we're tackling this from the context that Genesis One, two and three was written, we can sometimes use these thoughts in these questions. And these answers are non answers right? To draw conclusions that aren't there. I think another common thought, right that people have is Okay, wait a minute, was Adam there when he was talking to the serpent? Like these are one of those smaller details that people draw big conclusions from?

Jason Alexander: 12:19

Yes. She gave some some of the fruit to her husband who was with her right. I think it's implied he's standing right there. You would have liked to see him jump in. But But again, you don't want to underestimate the power of this craftiness at work deceiving, and appealing to it says that the food was from the woman's perspective desirable. And it's the power of suggestion and appealing to desire. And there's a lot of confusing emotions, I think, in play here. And that was it seems that was the serpent's goal.

Travis Albritton: 12:57

And it seems like Adam wouldn't have fared much better just by how he is described. Yeah, it's not it's not like Eve is the suggestible one. And Adam is the rock like he, he is just as cunning, a fair match for the serpent. Yeah, they're described as being that innocent, you know, no street smarts, dislike trying to figure out how to cultivate this guy. And here's this crafty serpent, because because that is one of the as Kareena was suggesting, one of the things that we can read into it is, well, if Adam had just been being a good leader, right, doing his job, this wouldn't have happened.

Jason Alexander: 13:33

Right? If he would have kept his little lady, you know, protected her again, this underestimates just how up for grabs, I guess the human heart is in this story.

Corina Espejo: 13:45

I think for me, and I've heard this. So now I'm wondering, one of the central themes that I have heard growing up in two and three, is about gender roles, right? A gender aspect as a central theme of Genesis, for example, hate the fall happened because like Eve took charge a woman took charge and see this is this is a part of the issue. But now that I'm listening to why this was created the context, it doesn't sound like there's too much of that as a central theme. It is it in there and maybe I'm missing it or

Jason Alexander: 14:17

it is there, the man and the woman are are different in and to say that there's not differences is a miss read in the other direction. And this is what I mentioned last time that these chapters do set forth complimentary genders, right? And, you know, we live in a very rare cultural moment, where there are discussions and in movements to erase the gendered pneus of of creation of humanity, where there is a move to undermine and even question that there is a man and a woman that should alarm us. I don't think that should frighten us or make us. I don't think we should overreact to that. But the attempts to make confusing man and woman is to undo what Genesis is trying to communicate. I think Genesis is a helpful text insofar as it sets forth this story about creation, wherein human is man and woman, and they are different. But they are equal.

Travis Albritton: 15:26

Yes. And if you're listening, you're like, Oh, please keep on that thread. Don't worry. We're talking about post modernism. We're talking about modern feminism, good, all that stuff. Once we start getting to the end of our journey, and we start shifting into application, and the way our cultural worldviews can impact the way that we read the Bible. Totally, don't worry, yeah, depending on it, we'll get to it. But for now, we'll stick in the pocket of Genesis three, I think the last question that I want to make sure that we speak to, and this is going to bleed into our next scripture reading is, once Adam and Eve have eaten this forbidden fruit, they recognize the wrong that they have done, and they so fig leaves they're hiding. And then in verse nine, says, The Lord God called to the man and said to him, where are you? And so reading this, it seems like he screwed up, God is now addressing the man directly. And we would assume, if he's God, the Creator all knowing it's not because he doesn't know what has happened, right? But maybe there's something else going on here. So just kind of like walk through how this story plays out. And what we should be picking up as we read through this passage, going into then verse 14, and beyond, there's a few things that are worth noticing,

Jason Alexander: 16:43

verse eight, which is just, it's a wonder filled verse. And it's also tragic if you love and hate to read it, because it sets forth a picture of this life in the garden, where in God was to be heard, walking to and fro. And there's a very specific Hebrew word here for for walking. And it's the same word that's used to describe God's presence and going about with Israel, in the tabernacle in their wanderings. And so what is lost for a time by this infraction, by this choice, this human choice is this reality where in God can be seen walking about, and as near nearness of God, he's not far off, quote, in heaven. But he's, he's present, the garden is a place of intimacy. And I think that helps make sense of the questions that God asked because he, he asks, in verse nine, where are you? And then he'll ask, as the woman, what have you done? What have you eaten? Who told you? And you're almost wonder, like, Does God not see what's what's happening? And of course, you know, I shouldn't say, of course, because it might not be obvious to everybody. But I imagine that God is sort of calling out and drawing attention to what they've done like a father might to a child, like, Hey, you know, not so much I can't find you. But you know, where are you? Where are you at? You know, like that the deepest sense of that question, like, where are you at? Now, it's a calling out to the human being, to live intimately and close with God, but now he can't be found. So it's an indication that what the woman had thought would make her God like and would was desirable and would bring wisdom instead just, you know, tore a hole in the relational connections in every direction. They're hiding from one another, that are hiding from from God. And so the question implies that there is a problem, something has been torn, that it's singling out, the man should not alarm us, I don't think you'd want to read into that, that. see God's looking for his friend, the man he doesn't really care about the woman where she is that doesn't tell me I think it's more that as the gardener as the one created to care for and steward the garden, and live in proximity to God is nowhere to be found. And so, this is God's way I think of drawing out confession. And honesty is

Corina Espejo: 19:46

Adam meant to represent, you know, male men, and Eve meant to represent women in this story.

Jason Alexander: 19:54

They do. Yeah, so this is a question, you know, are they archetypes And yeah, they will be used that way later in the Bible. The names Adam and Eve aren't aren't there yet. So it's it's kind of that's that's a whole nother moment in this story that the naming. But at this stage again remember we just have Isha and E Sha, we just have man, man and woman. As far as Genesis is concerned, it's telling a story of origins. And it's telling a story about men and women. But I don't know that I'd want to say, each thing that Adam does is how men are and each thing that Eve does is what women do, or each thing that the woman does is what women do

Travis Albritton: 20:42

to piggyback I think the Curiosity comes from the application step of the story, right? Like I'm reading the story. So then how does it impact my life? My walk with God and my understanding of what it means to be an image bearer. I think this transitions really nicely into this next section. We're going to read here because we now start getting into consequences. Since things have gone awry. There are some things coming downstream. And the question will be, is this God resetting the expectation for how men and women are supposed to interact with each other? Or is this more foreshadowing the next couple chapters of Genesis? Let's go ahead and read that. Since we're there already. Corina?

Corina Espejo: 21:24

Yeah.

Travis Albritton: 21:24

Do you want to go ahead and read verse 14 through verse 19.

Corina Espejo: 21:27

Yeah, verse 14, says, Then the Lord God said to the serpent, because you have done this, you're cursed more than all animals, domestic and wild, you will crawl on your belly and groveling in the dust as long as you live, versus teen and I will cause hostility between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring, he will strike your head and you will strike his heel. Then he said to the woman, I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy and in pain, you will give birth, and you will desire to control your husband, and he will rule over you. And to the man. He said, since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree, whose fruit I commanded you not to eat, the ground is cursed because of you all your life, you will struggle to scratch a living from it, it will grow thorns and thistles for you, though you will eat of its grains, by the sweat of your brow Will you have food to eat until you return to the ground from which you were made? For you were made from the dust and to dust you will return?

Travis Albritton: 22:21

Alright, so this is what happens immediately after that interaction in the garden. God's questioning man questioning woman, they've given their their finger pointing excuses, right? It wasn't my fault. It was them. Right. And then was the key passing the buck all the way down to the serpent. And so now we get into the scenario where, because you have done this, this will happen is this kind of rhythm that we see here, there's two ways you can read this, right? You can either read this as, okay, the situation we had before, didn't work clearly right? It broke down. So here is now the new way that I want you to operate in this created world. That could be one way you read it the other way would be just like before reset. If you eat from this tree like you will die like he has that knowledge know what's going to happen, is now foreshadowing these things that are about to happen. That because this has happened, this will now be the new normal because you made this choice. This will not be your circumstance. How do people in the Bible scholar community parse those things apart? And what's I guess the most true way to read it not in the sense of like the stamp of truth, but like what is? What is true to the text? What is the text trying to communicate?

Jason Alexander: 23:33

Yeah. Is this prescribing? Is this is this God's answer? Will going forward? What I'd like is for you to do this, or is it saying because of what you've done going forward, you'll end up doing this. And those are two totally different outcomes in terms of practice, and the way that the story of Genesis unfolds. And I think you have to keep that in view. All of these things will be played out throughout the narrative of Genesis, especially beginning in chapter 12. through the end of the book with the story of Israel, you see a lot of these dynamics being being played out. The first thing I think worth worth paying attention to here is the idea of troublesome labor and pregnancies. And that is the first bit of this new reality that affects the woman. He says I will greatly multiply your pain and childbearing in pain you shall bring forth children, you're left with the impression that the problem that the woman will face now is when she has children, that that moment will be physically painful. Now it says you know, I will increase our will multiply your pain was there pain before, I would imagine there probably was, I think we have this vision of these chapters of Genesis, that everything was just so perfect that you could never stub your toe. Giving birth was a thoroughly pleasant experience. But you know, I'm not I'm not sure that's the case. It's not the point that's being made here. But I will greatly increase your pain. And the words here are bigger than just physical pain. But the whole notion of conceiving a child, you know, and carrying that child full term, delivering the child, and then raising that child will be a challenge in the new world that's being formed by human choice and decisions to go against what God has done. This is setting forth a whole new reality, where it's going to be difficult to have a family, it's not going to happen easily. And Eve will learn that firsthand when her sons kills her other son, the whole family affair has been, you know, soaked in in pain and difficulty. And this is a theme or you could say a thread that gets pulled throughout the biblical story. And I could go on a rant about that. But women struggling at key moments within the story of of Israel, with infertility and barrenness, and that reality serving as a backdrop for God's bringing about his will. It's how it unfolds. So women are sitting at the center of how things move forward. So that the idea of having a family is brought into this, you'll bring forth kids with great pain. And we won't have to wait very long to see that that unfold.

Travis Albritton: 26:53

So you're saying that this is not a verse that identifies epidurals as sinful behavior, because it is counter to God's intent.

Jason Alexander: 27:01

I don't think that that God wants now for it to be painful to have kids. So if you, if you take any sort of anesthesia, when delivering, you're going against God's new plan for creation, that feels like a stretch I, I think that's missing again, sort of the rhetorical strategy, also of the book of Genesis, we're not just talking about something like what happens in the birthing room, but the whole enterprise of having a family. what's so amazing about this, to me, is that if what I'm saying is true. And I wouldn't be saying if I didn't think it was true, I think that's what's happening here in the text, what God is setting forth as the new reality, born of choosing a different route to wisdom, whatever creating this new world effectively, is God is also setting the backdrop for which he will be a primary actor, right, he's setting the stage, a God's will. And jumping off point will be from the very place where things went horribly wrong. And so what we're seeing as a curse, God will turn into a blessing. So that's the thing, you take these verses in a vacuum, you can contort them into, into some kind of, you know, whatever system of theological thinking, but to take these verses as they sit within the within a larger context of the Bible, they mean more than just what we want them to mean.

Travis Albritton: 28:34

Well, and I think that's hopefully what we're trying to do here, right is pull back the curtain and say, let's look at this in the grand scheme of the biblical narrative and story to make sure that the conclusions we pull are consistent with what we see with the rest of the Bible. Now, another fun misreading of verse 16, is that it is God's desire for women to desire their husband, some translations say your desire will be for your husband. Others say your desire shall be contrary to your husbands. And when we read that in English, we think, oh, like she's pining after him. Like she's, she has a crush on Adam. And that's now a part of the new reality, but that word desire help us make sense of that because that same word shows up in the next story between Cain and Abel.

Jason Alexander: 29:24

Yeah, you're right. It shows up to other times in Hebrew Scripture. And the next time will be in the story of Cain and Abel, for those who don't remember, it's a horrible story, but the older brother kills his younger brother. And as he's thinking about doing this thing, he has this meeting with with God and God says to him, a crouching demon at your door. You must its desire is for you, but you must master it. And it's a really interesting verse because Cuz it's like a window into the struggle of this jealous older brother who's thinking of killing his brother, and God says it right at your doorstep. And now, the word is a crouching demon or sin is at your door is another way you could translate that. But the idea is that now, what the embodiment of evil, the thing that causes stumbling and God's good world is not portrayed as a serpent, but as sin or as a, you know, a demon, crouching there. And it's like it's lying and wait at your doorstep, so that when you, you know, you head out for work in the morning, you know, Honey, I'm leaving for work and you step out, it's right there waiting to gobble you up. And it's desire is for you. And it's the same word that you have in Genesis 316, your desire will be for your husband in there. Obviously, the desire isn't a good affectionate desire, it's not seen as at your door, and it thinks you're sexy or something. Right? Like it thinks it has a crush on you. It's more its desire is to devour you. But here's what's interesting is that you must master it, which holds out this wonderful hope that sin can be an evil can be pushed back by human obedience to God. So in Genesis 316, the woman is told to the woman, your desire will be for your husband, but he shall rule over you and that rule is the same word. God tells Cain, you should rule over the sin, right? You should, it's desires for you, but you shall rule over it. No, you don't want to push this too far. But it's interesting that the way humans are to interact with sin and temptation is similar to the way a husband and wife will interact with each other isn't that it's frightening. It's like how we're supposed to treat sin by ruling over it. Husbands will treat wives like that, and wives will treat husbands like sin treats us isn't it, it's just again, I don't want to push it too far. But there is some some overlap there, that the way that this is being portrayed, it's just it's destructive. It's interesting. nlt takes control here. That could be the idea that going forward, you're gonna want to call the shots or this could be sexual, you know, this is the other instance where this is used as in song, Song of Songs, chapters seven, verse 11, in Hebrew might be verse 10. There it's a positive thing is that, you know, I desire my lover, a sexual desire, but it seems like whatever it is, it's, it's bad. You have an unhealthy desire, you're going to have kids, it's going to be tough to have kids, but your desire is going to be for your husband.

Travis Albritton: 32:47

Well, if we've placed this as a midpoints, from what we've read before, and what's about to happen in the future. And we talked about how Genesis two paints this portrait of an ideal human society that is completely flat, there's no hierarchy, there's no domineering over one another. There's no one image bearer ruling over another image bearer. And this is a sharp contrast to that. Yeah, right, that now there's a power struggle. Now, these two complimentary figures that are supposed to be working hand in hand together are now at odds with each other. And then this is going to be the state of things. And it doesn't take very long for that to be the case between men and women. Especially when you get to figures like Lamech if you think some of the figures in the 20th century, committed atrocities riots, you know the name brain guy, Stalin, Hitler. Just wait till you wait till you read about Lamech. Yeah, guy, Rick, I had issues. Yeah, that guy.

Corina Espejo: 33:47

I love this. And I think people are gonna get lost in the sauce, right? And in this podcast about answering the question, what does the Bible say about women in the church? And we still have one more passage to kind of get into one thing, I think that I'm hearing, if we can segue, I'm gonna I'm gonna attempt to segue here. So central themes, and again, I'm going to keep coming back to the central themes, because I think that gives me so much clarity as we get into these crazy questions. This narrative here that we're looking at Genesis one, two, and three, it is very complex. And it's complex. It seems like because, you know, and I don't know what the word for is, but as a speech language pathologist, I'm gonna say super linguistic, right? We have these like words between the words and in even within the words. And what it does is it creates so much dialogue between meaning and commenting on humanity. And like you mentioned, it does comment on gender. So it'd be silly to say, That's not something that's here, but it does it in a way that it has levels. And so if I'm coming back to the level that is consistent, and central, and I'll say it that way, Central, right. We have God the Creator and he is our Creator, and we gather and learn our identity. Our vocation or wisdom from from this creator, that's, that was God's intent. And so when we we wrestle with these questions, okay, was it God's desire that women has to have painful labor pains, right? Is it God's desire that men have to sweat through manual labor to put food on the table? Right? Is it God's desire for there to be a power struggle between men and women? But the reality is, I think what I'm hearing, that was never God's intent, his intent was actually for us and what we're saying, okay, is it a curse, it is a consequence, it is a natural byproduct. And again, this is what I'm hearing, Adam and Eve said, I want to be able to decide for myself, what is good, and what is not. And so God's almost saying, Hey, here's, here's this consequence, you are now going to desire things other than me. And and, you know, when reading Genesis three, so if I'm looking at this, as we segue into that next portion, when reading Genesis three, what is the one of the better questions, if not best question to ask in order to pull out God's message in the passage? I want you to hold on to that question. Yeah, don't don't answer it yet. Can we read this next passage? And then come back to that question, do it yeah. Okay. And so Genesis three, and again, for those of you listening at home, I am reading the NLT version, but certainly read different versions, different translations, and I just happen to be reading NLT today. So let's jump into Genesis three, verse 20, the man Adam named his wife Eve, because she would be the mother of all who live, and the Lord God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife, then the Lord God said, Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out take fruit from the tree of life and eat it, then they will live forever. So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden. And he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made, after sending them out the Lord God station, mighty cherubim, to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Now, Adam had sexual relations with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant. When she gave birth to Cain. She said, with the Lord's help, I have produced a man. So all of this and we're our nerdy selves are diving into all these things. And I feel like there are going to be some leaders who are like, I literally just wanted to listen this podcast because I just want to know what what is the what's up with women? What who out? Are they there's a function in the church, and we just dived out. So Betty, so many different titles I'm with Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's chat a little bit when reading Genesis three, what's the best question to ask in order to pull out God's message in the passage?

Jason Alexander: 37:42

My question, and I find this to be an important even introductory point for people who are just, you know, becoming familiar with the Bible, you know, someone who wants a biblical vision of creation, you know, these, these chapters have to be a part of that. And yeah, I think the question, in my mind that's important is, you know, I think it's the one you guys are asking, What went wrong? And how bad is How bad is it? You know? Or maybe you could say, Did it start bad. And these chapters, I think, set out to set forth an ideal a reality, you know, God had this plan for his good world. And humans were a big part of that, that did not last long, because of bad choices, a crafty serpent. And there's questions with all of these. But what now? Maybe that's the right question. What do we do now? Because Genesis three guides the reader out of that harmonious world, right into the current situation, and it would be the world that the initial readers of Genesis lived in as well. It's a world where marriages are challenging, and there is oppression and there is humans ruling over other humans and death. And you know, it's, it's life outside the garden. You know, that's, that's where we live. And so I think the comforting thing for me is that you said it, that wasn't what God had hoped for. Nor is it what God will settle for. It's it's not the end of the story, but it's also not the beginning. And so what we have in Genesis three isn't the reference point. It's not like we're trying to get back to Genesis three, that would be just a total missing the mark. And I think that's the point here that now this unhealthy desire, however, we want to talk about that in this ruling over his wife, it's bad. It's it's bad. It's sad. It's not what God was seeking. And she's named Eve or you know, probably the name he means life or is connected to life. It's interesting when they were just simply eesh and Isha. Just the two words man or woman, right? I mean, they're close man and woman are each and he shall communicate a kind of intimacy and closeness where now a DOM and hava do not she's called life. Now remember, she's created to help a dumb, keep and work the garden, she's created as a way of God bringing the garden forward, bringing creation and culture and all of that forward. And that's what she's made for. That's what he's made for. their vocation is big. And it has to do with God's will. But now she's, she's known as life. Or she's been, you know, it's like just a part of what she does, which is, you know, have sex and have children. And now, you know, now a single part of who she is as being highlighted, it's seeking to set forth that human sin creates a relational tear that just goes, it's like a virus, right? It just goes haywire and gets a hold of every every thing that a human could have a relationship with. Its ruin, right? And you want to say as a natural consequence, but it's also God exacting some kind of punishment as well for life apart from his will. It's his his world, right? He is the Creator and judge of all of all that he's made. He's a good and loving creator and judge, but it's, but it's his world. And so yeah, I don't think it'd be wise to read Genesis three, and say, This is what a marriage should look like. Wives, you should be really, you know, have a crush on your husband, husbands, you gotta, you gotta rule her. And think about it, no, you'll get to this. But when you come to passages later in Genesis, or even the the practical passages in the New Testament, where women are called to be submissive, and men are called to be gentle, and, you know, die for their wives. I mean, if you think about what this new world is, where it's like, manipulation and ruling and coercion and, you know, oppressing one another, then look at the Christian marriage, where they're being submissive and gentle. It's like, the Christian marriage is meant to envision Genesis two, not Genesis three, the fact that we're humble with one another, the fact that we're gentle is like going in the opposite direction that Genesis three is headed this DC I don't know if that makes sense. But so it's not like submissions are a dirty word. It's the opposite of this desire this, you know, if it's some kind of control or manipulation, and to be gentle and to die for your spouse is the opposite of ruling over so the Christian marriage really is a picture of what God really was hoping for, which is what we should have been doing with each other, or would have been presumably, under God's wisdom all along. So Genesis three is a problem. Not a prescription for a better world. That's, that is, that's a mystery short well, and

Travis Albritton: 43:11

even when you are connecting, you know, Genesis 223, where man is seeing Isha, right for the first time, right? It reads totally different than 320.

Jason Alexander: 43:25

Yeah. Observation

Travis Albritton: 43:27

pletely differently, because then it's almost like if one wasn't enough, chapter four, verse one, you get something just out there. Yeah. Right. It's like, you don't hear women saying, I've brought forth a man. Yeah. When they give birth to a baby.

Jason Alexander: 43:44

Right? Yeah. Yeah, picture like a full grown like bearded. Like, yeah, total total, like a lager or something like that. the manliest. Man, you're right. And I love that you pointed that out. Because remember, when he first encountered the woman, it blew his mind. He's like, this is better than any of the creatures, you know, you let me name like she's the best one. And then when this thing transpires when this, you know, whenever falling victim being foolish, taking from the tree of knowledge, now, it's the woman's in my way, you know, like, Look what you've done by giving me this woman. And so that, yeah, that the tables turn really quickly. It's not valorizing that though, you can't go from this, and say, and this is why in the church, women should be submissive because men are supposed to rule over them.

Corina Espejo: 44:40

And I think the more accurate if I'm going to be honest, I think the more accurate reality is like, well see, this is the way that God is saying it's gonna be so just let it happen. Right, totally. Yeah. And I think that's more accurate than to say, let's do this, everybody. Let's press each. It's more. Sorry. That's the way it is, everybody Men are gonna, you know, rather than no let's let's actively go back to creators heart and will for us which, which I love that we're saying God created in you owe him created us to complement and help each other and within our differences right to celebrate those differences but it also and maybe and is more appropriate and that we get to share mutual identity and charge and work together from that we've been given from that crater. That's what we aim for not well, it's okay, we all are going to go ahead and rule over each other and going to be power struggles is just the way it is. Right, right. Yeah,

Jason Alexander: 45:37

right settle. But you know, again, not to step on the preaching, you know, the podium here, but you know, again, that's, that's the nature of sin is we settle, we see the reality of our lives and we lose a vision that God has. And we know as Christians, there's little we can do about our sinfulness. We need help from God in a way that I don't even know if Adam and Eve grasped you know, I don't know if I've grasped. But certainly that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try to work with what God wants and envision a better world than this one of oppression. The last thing I'll say, again, like Genesis isn't getting rid of differences between men and women. It's not seeking to do that it's diversity and unity and mutual love. The goal of Christianity, like some quests in our current moment would have us believe the Bible is not let's get back to some kind of ambiguous androgyny where there's, you know, there's no man or woman. That's not the biblical vision. We do play different parts we do and are capable, equipped by God to do different things. I don't think that should be a problem, unless you insert some kind of hierarchy into that.

Corina Espejo: 47:01

And that's consistent with the narrative, right? God takes chaos and ambiguity and creates order. Right.

Jason Alexander: 47:07

Right, exactly.

Travis Albritton: 47:08

To wrap up, there are some common observations that are made some more on the mark than others, as far as taking what we read from Genesis three and applying it in a modern church leadership setting. And so I just want to throw these by you, Jason, and just get your thoughts on, whether that is a good thing, or a good thought that is true to the story of the text. Or if it's perhaps misguided or reading into it more than we should. The first one being that the fall sin did not create gender roles. It's simply corrupted them.

Jason Alexander: 47:45

Yeah. Well, I don't know if you'd want to call desiring and ruling roles. That's a challenge. Like, again, in Israel, women and men play different roles in in our society they do. And that's not a bad thing. But I don't know if it corrupted the roles, so much as it inserted animosity, jealousy, manipulation into those Oh, okay. So yeah, I guess you're describing corruption. That's, that's true. But I don't know that it took away the roles and said, Well, before, you would have done x, but now you're going to do why I don't think that's kind of the idea. It's more just what you would always do will be more difficult. Does that make sense?

Travis Albritton: 48:27

It makes sense? Well, because it's, if you just read chapter three and say, Okay, this is a bad thing that has happened, right. But it's a corruption of the good thing that God intended. And you're kind of like reverse engineering backwards to good point, well, if this is the fall enrolled, and this is the ideal role, which unfortunately, Genesis two doesn't really give us that kind of clarity around this question.

Jason Alexander: 48:48

Right. But Paul might, Jesus does. You're right, though. I'm in the ministry. And you know, I, I feel comfortable with that. pastorelli I think we should be aiming for a vision of roles, or relationality. That's better than Genesis three.

Travis Albritton: 49:08

And if you're listening, and you're curious, we are going to jump into all that stuff. We're just going in order. Alright, good. So so we might be asking questions that we do plan on answering in the future. We're not just going to lead all these, you know, hanging chads up in the air.

Jason Alexander: 49:20

Yeah, get someone else fired, not me.

Travis Albritton: 49:24

But it is important for us to be clear about like, okay, maybe this is something that Bible teaches, right, but perhaps isn't something that we should pull directly from this story. We want to make sure that we're using the Bible correctly. Alright. Observation number two. In Genesis, chapter three, Adam was held accountable first or addressed first by God after they eat the fruit. So that means he is in charge.

Jason Alexander: 49:49

Yeah. I mean, you have to read that in you could, but there's nothing there that warrants that reading. I don't believe that. That would be a case where we'd want Be just honest with ourselves like, that's what, that's what we are choosing to see. You're gonna have a hard time finding someone who makes a living at writing about Genesis to say that.

Travis Albritton: 50:12

Well, I think that's pretty consistent with what Corina and I have studied out, but it is a common observation. Yeah, I want to make sure yeah, kind of addressing these things as we as we see them. The next one. And we kind of talked about this a little bit in the last episode. But this idea that Adam was created first, and that firstborn nature gives him authority over Eve.

Jason Alexander: 50:35

Yeah, again, there's not clarity on that point from these verses, you could see why someone might suggest that and I guess the assumption would be that the authors of Genesis, assume that first was best. But if that were the case, I'd want to present the many instances where it seems like that assumption is overturned in Genesis, think of Jacob and Esau with Jacob walks away with the blessing or Joseph Judah, you have instances in the Bible in Genesis specifically where the technical phrase primogeniture is undercut, I wouldn't feel comfortable saying because Eve came from Adam. He's better or he's in charge.

Travis Albritton: 51:29

Right? And I guess the twist on that would be well, in 223, doesn't he, quote unquote, name her or call her woman showing a similar level of authority over woman as he has over the animals he just named?

Jason Alexander: 51:42

I have a tough one with that. There's an instance where is it Hagar names God. So does that communicate that hegar is over God? I don't think that the naming of the woman in Genesis to calling her Isha is a display of him being better if it was he probably would have opted for a title that was dissimilar to his own. You know, I think the fact that it's each and each show was meant to communicate commonality, as well as difference it was also meant to communicate were were of the same sort, right? It wasn't to say, you're like the rest of the wildlife. Now, when the names are in Genesis three, that's a different story. There might be they're getting closer to him taking some authority over her.

Corina Espejo: 52:33

And I think the question I have, and I wonder, and there probably isn't a clear answer, is God giving Adam permission to exhibit authority over Eve in that verse in three? Because, again, I think the conclusions I find growing up is just that, right? Because Adam did that God is giving permission, or God is saying, this is how it should be. versus this is what Adam did as a result of the fall?

Jason Alexander: 52:57

That's a great question. I almost read it like, you're going to have to, because she's going to have desire, and you're going to have to, again, it's describing a dead situation. That's why there's more discussion that needs to take place with its connections to chapter four with the story of Cain, but the fact that our relationship to sin is described in a similar way that marriages described doesn't leave a good taste in your mouth. But I don't think it's like God, like empowering now, this new call. Remember, before Adam, I set you up to rule over all the wildlife. But now I also want you now you're gonna roll over people. That's just part of it. I think we're dealing more with Fallout and judgment than God changing his mind about what's best.

Corina Espejo: 53:46

Yeah, what we're saying is our hope for humanity lies in our singles.

Jason Alexander: 53:52

Well, that's another discussion. I would want to say yes, actually, for a number of theological reasons. That's

Travis Albritton: 53:58

a great thing to say, point number four, that is often drawn from this story, Genesis two and chapter three, which we talked about yesterday, but I want to reiterate today is that he was created as a helper for Adam. So then that translates to in modern ministry roles. Women should always be in a supportive but not front facing role. Because that was the dynamic and what aser represents speaking about women more broadly.

Jason Alexander: 54:31

I mean, this this is really where, you know, churches don't get along anymore, depending how you answer that one. Again, if we go back to the context of why the woman even exists, it's a vocation to keep until the garden. I mean, that's, that's the kind of help she is. So I think you have to do business with that vision of what help is. Yeah, I think without looking at Some more passages specifically from Paul, I don't want to say much more than that. But you shouldn't read from Genesis chapter two, that a woman is what do we say before an assistant to the man's desires, she helps him carry out God's Will by tilling and working the garden. So we're gonna have to, we're going to talk about what that means in a ministry setting. But I don't think you're going to get your answers for what that means for reading Genesis chapter two.

Corina Espejo: 55:34

Yeah. And I think that's the that's the beauty of it, right? We're just here, everybody, for everybody was like, I am ready to dumb down with this podcast. Okay, just, can we be clear here, Genesis one, two, and three, it would be proper exegetical reading, to look at this and say, You know what, it actually doesn't say, for example, again, this is me bringing what I've heard in the past, however, 3030 years of my life, it actually doesn't say here, not that it doesn't say in the Bible, totally. But it doesn't say here, if I'm pulling out from what God has given me from the narrative in Genesis 123. Be careful, it's not making commentary that women are only allowed to do administrative tasks. And this is me speaking, from my experience, people will read these verses and say, we'll see. Women are really just supposed to plan events, teach our children's ministries, and do administrative tasks, because they are the helper, they're the suitable helper. But that would be improper exegetical reading here.

Jason Alexander: 56:34

The thing is the casualty or like, the collateral damage in this discussion is what you just said, teaching the kids doing administrative tasks, we imagine a hierarchy within church work, like one is better than the other. And so that whole mindset is wrong. And that fuel some of this discussion, in my experience, where it's like, well, how can men get to preach? But there's a part of, there's an understanding of the kingdom of God that want to say, Well, what made you think that preaching was so much better than teaching the kids, and that kind of worldly thinking needs to be addressed as well? Because it's unfortunate when we talk about women doing administrative tasks. That is, shouldn't be to say that administrative task is a lesser kind of work. Because if I know anything about being in ministry, you don't administrate? Well, you hurt people. If you have more than a few people, you know, administration is is important. teaching the kids is vitally important, my goodness, like, I mean, so if we're looking at those tasks as being lesser, then we're immediately going to look at the women, or men who occupy those roles as being lesser or not getting a fair shake. And so I feel like, if it's the case, that women are administrators and teaching the kids, I would want to say, well, that's awesome. Like, that's amazing. Like, that's part of what it means. But what I don't want you to hear me saying is that that means then that a woman couldn't teach a lesson or something like that. Yeah, that's not what I'm trying to say here. But I think we have to be careful that when we talk about roles, the entitlements and self aggrandizing nature of the discussion, the highly individualistic nature of this discussion that's being had outside the church, I want to be very careful to protect the church from operating along those lines. And we can start to look down on things that I don't think God would look down on. That's more of a sermon than a fine exegetical point. But yet to your question, my opinion is that these verses are telling you that a woman should do administration in a man should give the vision for the church, I don't see that in these verses,

Corina Espejo: 59:00

just food for thought, because I hear that and I think, unfortunately, in Yes, don't plan to the power struggle in saying one task is more important than the other is more more highly thought of than the other. I love that. I think where I've seen again, reality where I've seen this thinking go is not and again, I grew up in a church where I was like, our kingdom teachers are amazing, just as more of a you know, administrative is amazing, or I see it I think being against, and this is what I'll say, like against the narrative that I'm hearing. You're not a woman, if your only gift is such and such a thing, right? That you have a place in the kingdom of God, if you do administrative tasks, if you plan social events, and if you and if you can't do those things, or those are not your strengths, or you don't think God is calling you to that then you don't have a place in the church and vice versa, men being forced, who may not have the gifting to teach and depreciable if you don't Well, there's no place for you. And that I think is where I've seen that goal right more than the power I think the world puts that power struggle more than the church does.

Jason Alexander: 1:00:04

Totally, I think you're exactly right. And this is where we don't like this. And it comes back to certain assumptions about what the Bible maybe say what the Bible is what we do with it. But we're looking for the Bible to function as some kind of blueprint for how to do all these things. And I think this is one area where we're going to have to be present with God in prayer and humility and careful attention to the biblical text, and to the history of the church and make careful loving decisions that pay honor to God's vision, which Genesis one and two, I think lies sets out for us. So I think you're right, when we're wanting the Bible to tell us that a man can't do x and a woman can't do you know at why, when it comes to ministry tasks, that's putting a lot of pressure on scripture to be something that it's not, and

Corina Espejo: 1:01:03

so much grace and mercy for our leaders who that is a tough quote, like, even as we're talking about these. And for those listening, please have so much grace and compassion. I mean, these are some really tricky, complex, and not super clear passages. And this, were only in Genesis forget about when we get to the other ones. Be patient Be gracious, these are hard questions. And these are hard answers that I think leaders they feel, and I think there's a pressure for them to have to answer.

Travis Albritton: 1:01:33

So yeah, well, and hopefully this will help you feel a little more equipped, and at least get a sense of the battlefield as it's played out in front of you. So that you kind of have some, some grasp of what's real to kind of hold on to as you navigate this. Jason, what a wonderful way to tease something we're talking about in a few episodes, this idea of blueprint thinking versus theological thinking and how those impact we read the Bible, but we won't give away too much yet, we'll just have to whet your appetite, you'll set to stick around for those real quick some takeaways to kind of consolidate the things we've talked about. We've already talked about the broad theme of Genesis One, two and three, is we see God's good creation that humanity has not been good stewards of, and that there are consequences that we are still dealing with. As a result of that. We do see that men and women, male and female are created to work together to be priestly figures in that garden to expand the boundaries of the garden to work in the garden to perfect it over time, that our role as image bearers and tillers is to do that. But then, inevitably, when sin comes in, we now introduce things like power struggles, tension, coercion, deceit among each other. And we're still grappling with the effects of that. But there is hope. If we look forward to Jesus, and we look forward to what we know, he does in his work on the cross, that there is an opportunity to redeem at least parts of what we see in Genesis two within the church, which is something we get to look forward to. Now if you want to get the guide, the Bible study guide for all the stuff we talked about today. All you have to do is go to women church, podcast calm and you can sign up for that newsletter. Not only will you get the Bible study guides for each of the episodes that we go through, so you can do your own Bible study and share them with your leaders in your small groups and such and such. But we'll also let you know when new episodes come out so you don't miss any new episodes. In the next episode, we're actually going to do a little Old Testament Bible survey, we're going to look at some women that are prominently featured in the Old Testament and see what we can learn from those stories to really try and peel back the heart of God when it comes to women in his creation.